Future Fedor vs. Brock fight....

Philec48 said:
Why is it that the big MMA guys don't (or can't) execute speedy and skilled front, roundhouse, or side kicks? Maybe their body build gets in the way? I think most likely that they never considered it important to develop those skills. Apparently sloppy kicking and punching will work ok in a MMA fight if it helps you on your way in to get the deed done with your wrestling skills.

If this is the case, I'd much rather call these fights MMW (mixed martial wrestling) or MMB (mixed martial boxing).

I just realized in typing this, that I've never seen even the smaller MMA fighters properly execute traditional karate kicks. Maybe they believe these techniques will leave them too open to getting taken down? Most likely I believe that they never had a love of developing those skills for whatever reason. "They're too flashy and ineffective". Of course they are if they aren't developed beyond the "looks" of the technique!

Getting in their and "duking it out" is a more immediate end result for them than doing "boring" repetitive martial arts kicks thousands of times until you've honed them to precision techniques.

And those that are highly skilled in these techniques are, for whatever reason, absent from MMA. Why? Maybe after many years of practice, they don't want to risk an injury that would put a stop to their ability to do skilled karate and kung-fu kicks?

Just food for thought....

Phil
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I give you Mirko Cro Cop, HEAVY WEIGHT.

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TexasTitan said:
I know Joe Rogan was. Hes also a douchebag and his commentary is paraphrashed and repeated by every half****ed bro watching an MMA fight. Thats what Im getting at.

MMA fans arent fans. They do it because they are fascinated by the fighting and the blood. They idolize it. After military school, Im just not enamored with the violence because Ive seen how far it can go and the cost of it. I prefer boxing because of the mindset and how it differs from MMA. And yes, Im sure they throw better punches than bears fans but it doesnt matter when Hurricane Ditka rains hell down on you.
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MMA fans arent fans?????? Not trying to be a **** here but for all your post and opinions on this thread your saying your not a MMA fan? And you prefer boxing because of the mindset? What mindset? I agree that the UFC has been putting on some less than par fights and they need to consintrate more on quality than quanity. And to say it is more violent than boxing is obsured. Yes there is usually more blood involved. But there is no major damage from a cut. You get rocked and stop defending the fights over. In boxing you get rocked. Take 9 seconds to recover and get rocked again. Case and point there has been one recorded MMA death. It was in russia in an unsanctioned event. I dont think boxing can say the same
 
bigdognhb said:
MMA fans arent fans?????? Not trying to be a **** here but for all your post and opinions on this thread your saying your not a MMA fan? And you prefer boxing because of the mindset? What mindset? I agree that the UFC has been putting on some less than par fights and they need to consintrate more on quality than quanity. And to say it is more violent than boxing is obsured. Yes there is usually more blood involved. But there is no major damage from a cut. You get rocked and stop defending the fights over. In boxing you get rocked. Take 9 seconds to recover and get rocked again. Case and point there has been one recorded MMA death. It was in russia in an unsanctioned event. I dont think boxing can say the same
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There has been 1 death in a sanctioned fight as well (Sammy Vasquez RIP), but there are many, many more deaths in boxing.

What TT is failing to acknowledge is Brock's 15+ years of wrestling experience. I will easily say that 99% of the time, in a fight, that a wrestler will destroy a boxer. Hell, grapplers in general will win. That's what started Vale Tudo in Brazil over 70 years ago. However, the sport has evolved to where every elite fighter cross-trains discipline because the only way to evr become champion today is to train multiple disciplines.

I'm not here to debate the safety or which sport is better, but it's asinine to say that Brock is just some big dude with no legit skills that became champion. Bob Sapp, who is bigger and also an ex-NFLer, has shown that you will not win just because of your frame. What separates Brock and Sapp is Brock's immense martial arts background; if you don't think wrestling is a martial art, you've already shown your ignorance.
 
Hello VolcomX311, thanks for the videos. I don't doubt that those two fighters are both great athletes and fighters in their genre.

But both videos help to make my point. Especially Gabriel Gonzaga. I looked at his supporting foot position. The heel is not pointed at the target. Hip, knee, and shoulder not properly lined up. Also, his landing foot - striking with the ankle??? Yellow belts perform more technically correct roundhouse kicks than this. Also, compared to a true blackbelt, it was slow.

But a blow is a blow, right? Good for brawlers, but martial artists???
 
We don't live in a perfect world where u can set up perfectly for every strike. Plus fatigue does set in. That is why things like (commercialized) karate classes are pointless. I would take a brawler over most karate black belts anyday(atleast the 1s I have come across).
 
you stand straight you will get taken down earlier. these stances are too adapt to many things not staring at your oponent (or instructor) doing "stuff" boxing you can clean up your technique much more because there isnt as much to think about. sure footwork hands and movement is great in boxing but in kickboxing and better yet MMA is much more difficult.
 
you stand straight you will get taken down earlier. these stances are too adapt to many things not staring at your oponent (or instructor) doing "stuff" boxing you can clean up your technique much more because there isnt as much to think about. sure footwork hands and movement is great in boxing but in kickboxing and better yet MMA is much more difficult. i do agree with you his head kick was slow. i acually hate him and he was a fat 254 going into this fight i think. i think hes usually 238-244.
 
Tomahawk88 said:
We don't live in a perfect world where u can set up perfectly for every strike.
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I do agree, but part of having the technique well established is also being able to move in at the right time with the correct foot position to execute the kick using proper form. Sometimes one can make it happen by themselves if they are fast enough, but at other times an opponent must be read, so that the opponent's own actions helps to set them up.

I wonder if we will ever see anyone approaching Bruce Lee's kicking skill in an MMA fight? Or even an "average guy" like Jack Huang? Look him up on YouTube. His side kicks and roundhouses are technically correct, fast, and powerful.

Tomahawk88 said:
Plus fatigue does set in. That is why things like (commercialized) karate classes are pointless.
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Unfortunately, even in most full contact karate fights I've watched, even at the beginning when the fighters were fresh, they threw slow, clumsy front kicks prompting me to call them pink belts.

Tomahawk88 said:
I would take a brawler over most karate black belts anyday(atleast the 1s I have come across).
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Yep, me too. Most karate schools are giving their students false and hence, dangerous confidence.
 
bigwhiteguy29 said:
you stand straight you will get taken down earlier. these stances are too adapt to many things not staring at your oponent (or instructor) doing "stuff" boxing you can clean up your technique much more because there isnt as much to think about. sure footwork hands and movement is great in boxing but in kickboxing and better yet MMA is much more difficult. i do agree with you his head kick was slow. i acually hate him and he was a fat 254 going into this fight i think. i think hes usually 238-244.
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I agree that anyone stiffly doing "stances" will get knocked on their hind end. But I think a traditional karate stand-up fighter can prevail if they can read their opponent, properly judge the various fighting zones (distance), and move with speed and accuracy to deliver their strikes. You're right, footwork is difficult in MMA because those guys are trained in the fast take-down.

I know I wouldn't be able to stop one of them with a stand-up kick once he has started to move in, but I might be able to fall to one knee and use a low round kick to take his legs out from under him. I don't know if they allow that kind of strike in MMA though, especially when it would target the knee. That kind of injury would potentially end someone's career, and I don't advocate that at all. I was thinking in terms of self-defense on the street.
 
I think I'm starting to get the drift of your message.

I don't know if we'll see someone in MMA with the precision & technique you're describing. I think utter mastery of a single art, to the level you'd like to see won't be likely, considering how wide the arsenal and multiple disciplines an MMA fighter needs to develop to be competitive.

Here's Diamond Dekker, not exactly MMA, he's pure Muay Thai, but it is full contact and any reason to post this vid is a good reason.

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Philec48 said:
I agree that anyone stiffly doing "stances" will get knocked on their hind end. But I think a traditional karate stand-up fighter can prevail if they can read their opponent, properly judge the various fighting zones (distance), and move with speed and accuracy to deliver their strikes. You're right, footwork is difficult in MMA because those guys are trained in the fast take-down.

I know I wouldn't be able to stop one of them with a stand-up kick once he has started to move in, but I might be able to fall to one knee and use a low round kick to take his legs out from under him. I don't know if they allow that kind of strike in MMA though, especially when it would target the knee. That kind of injury would potentially end someone's career, and I don't advocate that at all. I was thinking in terms of self-defense on the street.
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I definitely grasp your point, but: the nexus of this argument comes down to specialty v. adaptability; a battle in which the former lost to the latter in a bout with Thiago Alves and Georges St. Pierre, respectively. And further, a battle in which specialty loses to adaptability and well-rounded attack almost every time. As Volcom said, MMA training nor competition affords the [viable] opportunity for the complete mastery of an art, at least to the point at which you would be satisfied, due to the necessity of being well versed in every discipline; ergo, "sloppy kicks". This being said, I think it is a gross underestimation of the collective "MMA mind" to assume Karate has never been used only due to lack of understanding, dedication, awareness, etc., As some of the most highly conditioned and dedicated athletes on earth - some of them, such as GSP and Machida, with karate backgrounds - MMA fighters implement any strategy and technique which may provide them with a tactical advantage - i.e.) if wide-stance, crisp Karate kicks were of the benefit you speak, we most likely would have seen them already. This is not to say they are of no benefit whatsoever, but merely that they leave one susceptible to a wide-range of attacks. Karate blackbelts can afford the crispest leg-strikes possible in a tournament because a NCAA Div I wrestling champion, or Olympic Judoka is not waiting to clasp the kick and promptly introduce their posterior to the pavement, so to speak!

I think your point is more well-made in judging K-1 or a Karate tournament; however, in the multi-disciplinary context of MMA, I think it falls short due to the myriad disciplines afoot that make Karate less practical than KB'ing/MT/Boxing.
 
Texas.....im not going to knock ur point. You have some validity in saying that any person that is new to the a sport and becomes champion the sport itself should be put into question. No boxer can do this...no baseball..etc can do this.

But there is a big difference in MMA...boxing...football. MMA is new. Very very new. People have yet to truly find an elite balance in the fighting arts. It started out as style vs style...then in the past decade it turned into combo vs combo. Now you get a fighter like GSP who is really starting to take it to the next level and takes a beginner like thiago (despite his awesome strength and size) and plays with him whilst having a pulled groin gives credit to MMA as a developing entity.

But it is still in the very early phases of development. Look at boxing back in 1910...yeah those guys couldnt fight for sh*t. Little to no form and any boxer today could eat any of those boxers alive. But 90 yrs later and u have an truly fascinating form of combat. This will also happen to MMA with time.


Another thing...fighting isnt a sport. Im sick of people calling warriors and men participating in the oldest tradtion of combat as simply mere athletes. Yes they are athletic, but athletiscm is aadjective to describe their physical abilities. The are warriors and deserve that recognition.

And some people are natural born fighters and need little training to excell at it. Other need years of training to develop these same skills. So the fact that lesnar has risen to the top so fast is testament to his innate fighting ability he has acquired through 106 wins as a collegiate wrestler. And also he is still LEARNING...Brock stil has years of development ahead of him. He has one aspect of MMA down...and thats takedown. He still must develop punching, kicking, arm bars, chokes, guard, defense...etc. If he does not do so he will lose with time like every other fighter that failed to continue their development for w/e reason.

And texas i disagree with ur thoughts on MMA fans. I am an MMA fan and i watch it b/c i have literally been in the martial arts since i was 4. My life is a combination of several martial arts that i am continuing to develop. So i find it intriguing and educating to watch those who are doing the same. I do not idolize combat...combat is combat and it is one of the oldest form of conflict resolutin. But it is something that has been embedded into my being since my birth.

You have seen the in the military the use of technology to assert dominance. Guns, tanks, bombs, fighter jets, etc. The use of these weapons can leave the most trained and expert fighter no chance of winning. I can be the worlds most untouchable fighter but u pull a sniper rifle on me from 100 yds away and im dead. I find it understandable that u would enjoy boxing which has become sharpened over time so it too is becoming a true art evolved from its brutish beginning. MMA is still in the most rough stages of forging.
 
yeah that would be cool if you could kick like that like they did in PRIDE FC. I do get taken down a lot for a big guy but I also return the favor. Its because I have no wrestling background just strength,body weight, and football hahaha. Your Points as said before arnt bad but I just cant fully agree. **** is scary in there and you arnt gonig to be doing textbook. A lot of fighters who have cleaned up there game have done better. have gloves on is a little different too.
 
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