Favorite Bible Quotes

I meant no offense and I apologize if what I said offended you that was not my intention. I have a good friend that I work with who is a Witness and he says many of the same things you have in this thread, your view of who Jesus is, your view of birthdays, and your view that Jehovah is the correct title/name for God are all things that I have heard him say and we have debated. Basically I put 2 and 2 together and got 4. Again I did not intend it as a dig in any way I'm sorry if you took it that way, however I never made any statement of the superiority of my beliefs.

I think it was pretty judgmental that you linked me with one group. Not so much a observation, more a assumption. You created superiority by saying that a group you mentioned wasn't christian. It's not up to you to judge. Jesus showed how you would know if someone was a follower or not.

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Anyone who believes in christ can call themselves a christian but by their Fruits you will know if they really are one

I may not agree with your beliefs or denomination and you may not agree with mine but It is a obligation that christ taught us to respect and love one another no matter what walk of life we come from. I consider you more of a brother because you recognize the bible as God's word.
 
No they are not.

Brief Summary of Differences:

Summary, lol, that was more then a summary. Seems like you've linked a lot of that.I REALLY, REALLY don't wanna debate here but by definition of a christian your not correct and it's another judgement call. These two things you can't deny.

I'd like to know what do you make of the Tetragrammaton and why is it ignored? A big reason why I went with the name Jehovah is it's in the KJV as well as the ASV. How can one ignore that name in such acrcedited bibles?
 
The topic came up of witnessing and how to witness to someone who is closed minded or doesnt want to believe.

Not for nothing, but I think it's the exact opposite. I am not closed minded, I am open minded to accept the idea and thought of an alternate ending than just heaven and hell like myself and just about everyone else was taught growing up. If there is any closed mindedness about this, it's those who choose to believe what higher authorities tell them to believe and that anything different is wrong to think. If you accept only one way to live and don't think for yourself, isn't that closed minded?
 
I love this thread, good stuff, I hope it stays positive and a means of teaching each other and learning. All "religions", all churches, and all people are flawed, no one has it 100% correct in the way the worship, what they believe, and especially how we act. It is great that God gave us a book to help guide us, organized religion to help interpret and teach and spread thw word, and people who care, like the people in this thread so we can challenge each other.

Very nice post.
 
No disrespect, but you know this how? Because you believe and have faith that it is true? Or can you provide me evidence other than what some men wrote in a book many, many years ago.

Once again, no disrespect. Do not feel attacked by my questioning. These are just the unknowns in my life that I feel have caused me to lose my faith some years ago. Unfortunately, I question things. Life would be so much easier if I followed blindly.



I love this post bro, it doesn't mean you lack faith because you question something or somebody. If anyone here says they haven't had doubts in their life about their beliefs they are fooling themselves. It's easier to follow blindly, the fact that you have questions means your open minded and have the stomach to be ridiculed for it.
 
Not for nothing, but I think it's the exact opposite. I am not closed minded, I am open minded to accept the idea and thought of an alternate ending than just heaven and hell like myself and just about everyone else was taught growing up. If there is any closed mindedness about this, it's those who choose to believe what higher authorities tell them to believe and that anything different is wrong to think. If you accept only one way to live and don't think for yourself, isn't that closed minded?

haha, how true, guilty as charged. that was another point that was brought up, was how futile it can be because we, speaking about the people I know in my church, are about the most close minded people you can find. I do go to a fundamental, take the Bible literal, church. That is one reason I dont like to get into arguements, because I have to sympathize with the other party, it doesnt matter what you say, or what you show me, my beliefs will not change. From the outside it can seem very arrogant then to expect others beliefs to change when mine own wont. But that type of belief is what the Bible asks for, I, as a believer, dont have a choice.

For instance, I used to believe in evolution. I dont now, and not because I have anything that disproves it, but merely for the fact I believe the Bible, all of it, word for word, and if it says man was created and not evolved, then in my mind it must be so. That is also why I say I dont have the gift for persuasion, I didnt really need any myself. I know many call me foolish and a simpleton, or a sheep.

Just wanted to add, that if I am wrong, and the Bible is false, God doesnt exist, and there is nothing after death, etc, I have no regrets, my life is better in all areas because of my conversion. I am a better, worker, friend, citizen, son, uncle, you name it, and I am much happier, healthier, less stressed, I could go on for a while about all the benefits I am enjoying right now, for me it is the only way I want to live, because I have not always lived this way, and life was not as good as it is now.
 
haha, how true, guilty as charged. that was another point that was brought up, was how futile it can be because we, speaking about the people I know in my church, are about the most close minded people you can find. I do go to a fundamental, take the Bible literal, church. That is one reason I dont like to get into arguements, because I have to sympathize with the other party, it doesnt matter what you say, or what you show me, my beliefs will not change. From the outside it can seem very arrogant then to expect others beliefs to change when mine own wont. But that type of belief is what the Bible asks for, I, as a believer, dont have a choice.

For instance, I used to believe in evolution. I dont now, and not because I have anything that disproves it, but merely for the fact I believe the Bible, all of it, word for word, and if it says man was created and not evolved, then in my mind it must be so. That is also why I say I dont have the gift for persuasion, I didnt really need any myself. I know many call me foolish and a simpleton, or a sheep.

You are a very honest person. Even when it goes against you're argument and that's honorable.
 
Not for nothing, but I think it's the exact opposite. I am not closed minded, I am open minded to accept the idea and thought of an alternate ending than just heaven and hell like myself and just about everyone else was taught growing up. If there is any closed mindedness about this, it's those who choose to believe what higher authorities tell them to believe and that anything different is wrong to think. If you accept only one way to live and don't think for yourself, isn't that closed minded?
If we are in Christ we accept one way to live. Not that we are always successful but that is the goal.

Romans 8:1-17
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Romans 12:1-2

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
I think it was pretty judgmental that you linked me with one group. Not so much a observation, more a assumption. You created superiority by saying that a group you mentioned wasn't christian. It's not up to you to judge. Jesus showed how you would know if someone was a follower or not.

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Anyone who believes in christ can call themselves a christian but by their Fruits you will know if they really are one

I may not agree with your beliefs or denomination and you may not agree with mine but It is a obligation that christ taught us to respect and love one another no matter what walk of life we come from. I consider you more of a brother because you recognize the bible as God's word.

Obviously you are very sensitive because you read WAAAAAY more into my statements than was there. Again I'm sorry you were offended and yes it was an assumption but one that was based on my observation of your stated beliefs as the verse you posted above states "Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them" How would you know if you didn't judge the fruit?. I at no point made any comment that even remotely suggested I didn't think you were a Christian or in anyway insinuated, hinted at or even suggested I was in some way superior to you. That my friend was an assumption you made.
 
Summary, lol, that was more then a summary. Seems like you've linked a lot of that.I REALLY, REALLY don't wanna debate here but by definition of a christian your not correct and it's another judgement call. These two things you can't deny.
Of course I linked it. I did not type that all out myself. I was not looking to debate it but the fact is they are not one in the same.

I'd like to know what do you make of the Tetragrammaton and why is it ignored? A big reason why I went with the name Jehovah is it's in the KJV as well as the ASV. How can one ignore that name in such acrcedited bibles?
Not anything I have studied. I'll see what I think of it after reading up.
 
I'd like to know what do you make of the Tetragrammaton and why is it ignored? A big reason why I went with the name Jehovah is it's in the KJV as well as the ASV. How can one ignore that name in such acrcedited bibles?

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: "Jehovah" -- False reading of the Hebrew YAHWEH.(8)

Encyclopedia Americana: "Jehovah" -- erroneous form of the name of the God of Israel.(9)

Encyclopedia Britannica: The Masoretes who from the 6th to the 10th century worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible replaced the vowels of the name YHWH with the vowel signs of Adonai or Elohim. Thus the artificial name Jehovah came into being.(10)

The Jewish Encyclopedia: "Jehovah" -- a mispronunciation of the Hebrew YHWH the name of God. This pronunciation is grammatically impossible.(11)

The New Jewish Encyclopedia: It is clear that the word Jehovah is an artificial composite.(12)

According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, p. 680, vol. 7, "the true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton YHWH was never lost. The name was pronounced Yahweh. It was regularly pronounced this way at least until 586 B.C., as is clear from the Lachish Letters written shortly before this date."




I myself prefer Abba Father which denotes the personal relationship I have with my God and is in no way disrespectful of HIM or HIS position as my Lord and Master.

Romans 8:15 (New King James Version)

15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Romans 6:14 (New King James Version)

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
 
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I certainly admire your great faith.

What testimony do you speak of?
My 'faith' is challenged every day. As I get older and experience more life I find questions that I would rather not.

The testimony I speak of is "a life transformed by an intimate personal realtionship and experience with Christ". The substance and evidence of fruits of the Spirit in my life brought about by the death of my old man and the life of a new man in Christ.

It's a long story that is constantly unfolding as I become more intimate with Christ.
 
Obviously you are very sensitive because you read WAAAAAY more into my statements than was there. Again I'm sorry you were offended and yes it was an assumption but one that was based on my observation of your stated beliefs as the verse you posted above states "Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them" How would you know if you didn't judge the fruit?. I at no point made any comment that even remotely suggested I didn't think you were a Christian or in anyway insinuated, hinted at or even suggested I was in some way superior to you. That my friend was an assumption you made.

It wasn't about me and neither did I think you were saying you were superior to me. If I took offense to that I'm gonna crumble when people start to really ridicule me for my beliefs ;) The point I was trying to make was let's not point out specific groups and call them non-christian. The first definition of Christianity I posted was 1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. From that definition that defines the JW's. also it would define catholics, protestants, latter day saints, non-trinitarians (which I said was part of my beliefs), jewish christians, etc.

Let's squash this bro.
 
Of course I linked it. I did not type that all out myself. I was not looking to debate it but the fact is they are not one in the same.

Propaganda? I went over it and that's exactly what it looks like. You'll find a lot of that online. That post looks completely biased. A intent to lead you in one direction and I see many fallacies there. I'm surprised you don't see that. Right off the bat it says "the christian church" as if whoever wrote it represents christians. Who who are you? I don't like that at all. Second it's saying your not a christian if your a non-trinitarian. It's well known too many people that the holidays are of pagan roots, Not just the Jw's.

"There are a few similarities that exist between Christianity and Jehovah’s Witnesses. For example, "

The quote separates christianity with JW's. By definition of christianity, the JW's do fall into that category. This wouldn't be correct.
 
I'm not gonna lie the quibbling about denominations is pushing me away from this thread (not that anyone cares, or should care for that matter, about my opinion). This thread is for posting our favorite Bible quotes.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.(NKJV)
 
I'm not gonna lie the quibbling about denominations is pushing me away from this thread (not that anyone cares, or should care for that matter, about my opinion). This thread is for posting our favorite Bible quotes.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.(NKJV)


amen

Mark 9:38-40

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

All denomination have their own manmade traditions, many times they are just a matter of personal taste, some may be truly in error, but no church has the 100% correct doctrine and application. Now we cannot ignore unsound doctrine; works based salvation, denial of the diety of Jesus, denial of the Bible as the inspired Word of God, these things are basic, univerally taught and easily seen and supported in scripture, but I think if we are in agreement of these major things we have much in common, and the important stuff in common. Like I said, I believe in the word for word truth of the Bible, that the flood really did happen, etc. If you want to say it didnt, that it is a story that illustrates Gods judgment and yet His care on those who are obedient, so be it, we sweat the small stuff sometimes.

As stated before, unsound doctrine cannot be tolerated, anyone who denies Jesus as the Christ cannot really call themselves a Christian I believe, per Acts, it was in Antioch, I think off the top of my head, the followers of Paul, who most definitely preached Jesus, were first called Christians, so there is some Biblical merit to this. However, at the same time, think of the 1 Corinthians, was this not a church in trouble because of unsound doctrine, AND disunity? You are my spiritual brother or sister if you believe in Jesus and have accepted His sacrifice as payment for your sins and humbled yourself to ask Him for forgiveness regardless of denomination or whatever else you believe.

Stay strong my friends there is much that is against us and would like to pull us down and apart. Let this thread be a source of strength and encouragement, of conviction (yes it is good to be humbled), of instruction (Mr Dunn and others have made so impressive knowledge posts), reminders of the truly important things, and motivation.

I love this thread, I check it all the time, it is literally I feel a part of service and testimony and witnessing to God for me, what a great opportunity!
Have a blessed day to all!
 
WERDDD BROTHER!

I love that quote too ;)

I'm not gonna lie the quibbling about denominations is pushing me away from this thread (not that anyone cares, or should care for that matter, about my opinion). This thread is for posting our favorite Bible quotes.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.(NKJV)
 
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All denomination have their own manmade traditions, many times they are just a matter of personal taste, some may be truly in error, but no church has the 100% correct doctrine and application. Now we cannot ignore unsound doctrine; works based salvation, denial of the diety of Jesus, denial of the Bible as the inspired Word of God, these things are basic, univerally taught and easily seen and supported in scripture, but I think if we are in agreement of these major things we have much in common, and the important stuff in common.

No church can be 100% because they are run by imperfect humans. That's just it. I appreciate your posts as you appear to use sound judgement. What I don't like is christians saying who isn't and who is a christian. Like you said, we need to focus on the main things. Probably the most offensive post (mr. dunn) made was saying that one group wasn't christian because they don't believe in the Trinity. There are non-trinitarians out there. Myself included and I don't just speak up for myself but also for them.
 
No church can be 100% because they are run by imperfect humans. That's just it. I appreciate your posts as you appear to use sound judgement. What I don't like is christians saying who isn't and who is a christian. Like you said, we need to focus on the main things. Probably the most offensive post (mr. dunn) made was saying that one group wasn't christian because they don't believe in the Trinity. There are non-trinitarians out there. Myself included and I don't just speak up for myself but also for them.
Whoa Dude! "I" never "said" any such thing. I shared some "information" that you supposed was propaganda.

Mormons call themselves Christians too. I'll offend a bunch of them I'm sure.

I think it's a good idea to get back to the OP's topic.
 
Whoa Dude! "I" never "said" any such thing. I shared some "information" that you supposed was propaganda.

.

Wanna share where you got this link cause you posted it like it was reputable?
 
This is the definition of a Christian according to the Wikipedia.

A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God.[1][2] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), a description of God as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit. This includes Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and the vast majority of Protestantism. A minority are Nontrinitarians.

The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."

The Trinity has never been a universal Christian belief. Not all sects of early Christianity preached about the Trinity, or believed in it. The Catholic Church made it official doctrine, and subsequently became the most powerful Christian sect. It spread far and wide due to Constantine and the Roman Empire. Therefore, the belief in the Trinity is the most common Christian viewpoint, but it has never been the only one.

Jesus himself said nothing about the Trinity.
There are more scriptures in the bible to back up Jesus being God's son. Just because a person believes something, it doesn't make it true.
 
This is the definition of a Christian according to the Wikipedia.

A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God.[1][2] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), a description of God as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit. This includes Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and the vast majority of Protestantism. A minority are Nontrinitarians.

The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."

The Trinity has never been a universal Christian belief. Not all sects of early Christianity preached about the Trinity, or believed in it. The Catholic Church made it official doctrine, and subsequently became the most powerful Christian sect. It spread far and wide due to Constantine and the Roman Empire. Therefore, the belief in the Trinity is the most common Christian viewpoint, but it has never been the only one.

Jesus himself said nothing about the Trinity.
There are more scriptures in the bible to back up Jesus being God's son. Just because a person believes something, it doesn't make it true.

Wikipedia is not exactly the best source of information. You could've edited this page before posting this comment
 
Jesus himself said nothing about the Trinity.
There are more scriptures in the bible to back up Jesus being God's son.

This is the biggest reason why I don't believe in it. What I feel is overwhelming evidence of the latter.

Did anyone know that among non-trinitarians there is also Binitarianism, Unitarianism , Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a different way of viewing the Father, son and holy ghost(spirit).
 
Wikipedia is not exactly the best source of information. You could've edited this page before posting this comment

Anyone can edit any page before posting. I listed the source. What to double check it? Be my guest.

This is from Invalid Link Removed

doc·trine   
[dok-trin] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2.
something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3.
a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

All Catholics are considered Christians. Not all Christians are Catholics. Doctrines taught by one religion are not always excepted in another, However, all Christians accept the bible and scriptures as truth.

2 Timothy 3:16

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
 
This is the definition of a Christian according to the Wikipedia.

A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God.[1][2] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), a description of God as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit. This includes Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and the vast majority of Protestantism. A minority are Nontrinitarians.

The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."

The Trinity has never been a universal Christian belief. Not all sects of early Christianity preached about the Trinity, or believed in it. The Catholic Church made it official doctrine, and subsequently became the most powerful Christian sect. It spread far and wide due to Constantine and the Roman Empire. Therefore, the belief in the Trinity is the most common Christian viewpoint, but it has never been the only one.

Jesus himself said nothing about the Trinity.
There are more scriptures in the bible to back up Jesus being God's son. Just because a person believes something, it doesn't make it true.

This is the biggest reason why I don't believe in it. What I feel is overwhelming evidence of the latter.

Did anyone know that among non-trinitarians there is also Binitarianism, Unitarianism , Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a different way of viewing the Father, son and holy ghost(spirit).

Who do you think Jesus is/was then? Was he God or a man?
 
Matthew 12:50

For whosover shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister, and mother.

Love this passage, at the end of the preceding chapter is the famous come unto me all ye who are heavy laden, where Jesus has been rejected by Israel as a people and is now opening up to individuals, any one. And now, in this chapter, we see that it is not through birth right, but by choice, that we are Gods people. Just because we attend church, or our parents are faithful, means nothing, just as being a Jew meant nothing concerning salvation. Obedience to the will of God, revealed in the Bible and teachings of Jesus is what is important. We are individually responsible for our relationship with God and all have the same opportunity.
 
Who do you think Jesus is/was then? Was he God or a man?

I believe Jesus to be God's Son. When he was on earth he was himself in human form. I wanna break down what I get from John 1:1. I'm gonna use quotes from the KJV.


John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Besides Jesus always refering to God as the father and him as the son Take a look at this scripture.


Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

Basically what I get here is that God had no beginning and he will have no end. You can substitute everlasting to a infident amount of time. It's hard to grasp that as a human cause we all have a beginning. I don't know if you've ever been told or thought that God had no beginning but I'd like to know.

When it says" in the beginning was the word", It's talking about Jesus christ but he couldn't be God because he had a beginning.

Col 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

Then we go back to John 1:2 and 3. I'm gonna quote from the NKJV because it may be easier to understand.

2 "He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

This goes along with Colossians because it shows that he was the firstborn of all creation. God's first creation.

So based on these two points It's impossible to say that the word as described as Jesus Christ is god almighty.

After research I found this this book

The Four Gospels Harmonized and Translated, by Count Leo Tolstoy. It was published in 1895. I have a quote from it.

"If it says that in the beginning was the comprehension, or word, and that the word was to God, or with God, or for God, it is impossible to go on and say that it was God. If it was God, it could stand in no relation to God."

So maybe the translation is saying the word is a kind of God or is of God. It is confusing and I always have more reading to do but Like I said based on the other points I believe it makes it impossible to say Jesus is God.

I don't think the apostle John would say that someone "the word" was with some other individual "god" and at the same time was that other individual. You know what I'm saying?
 
I believe Jesus is the first of God's creations(God's son) God called him his son and Jesus called God his father. If God says "Thats my son", I believe him. If Jesus says "My father is greater" I believe him. Since Jesus never preached that him and God were equal, and he would Sit on God's right hand I believe that the trinity is designed by man and not God.

John 14:28
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Romans 8:29
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Luke 9:35
35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Matthew 3:17
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

Jesus is the Son not the Father. the two are not the same.
Matthew 24:36.
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:19
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Mark 1:1
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,

In the time of Jesus, people believed Jesus was the son of God, not God.
Mark 15:39
39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”


Again...Jesus sitting at the right hand of God...
Mark 14:61-64
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
 
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Genesis 2:4

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Again...
col 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Jesus was created first, everything else was created through him, after him.
 
Wasn't the first of Gods creations the Heavens and the Earth??

John 1:3 " All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

so according to this scripture that would be a no. Jesus was.
 
I'm gonna add to my previous post. When it says "and the Word was God" It could very well mean that because Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and was with him the longest no one knew the father better. It was only him and his father so there was no one else to immitate. God was all he knew. Over time he become what you could say is equally minded. A splitting image of him. Does that mean he was him? No, Jesus does not have the power the almighty God does cause the previous scriptures show that Jesus was the first of creation not the creator ;)

I'm not gonna quote from the NIV because I see it's more familiar to others on here.

John 14: 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

This scripture supports my reasoning and belief.
 
I believe Jesus is the first of God's creations(God's son) God called him his son and Jesus called God his father. If God says "Thats my son", I believe him. If Jesus says "My father is greater" I believe him. Since Jesus never preached that him and God were equal, and he would Sit on God's right hand I believe that the trinity is designed by man and not God.

Very very good points to bring up. Especially at

John 14: 28 "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,[a] ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. "

This shows no equality.


I found some other scriptures. The jews were accusing Christ of being equal to God.

John 5: 18 "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

Notice how christ replied in the very next verse. let the scriptures do the talking!

19 "Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
 
I believe Jesus to be God's Son. When he was on earth he was himself in human form. I wanna break down what I get from John 1:1. I'm gonna use quotes from the KJV.


John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Besides Jesus always refering to God as the father and him as the son Take a look at this scripture.


Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

Basically what I get here is that God had no beginning and he will have no end. You can substitute everlasting to a infident amount of time. It's hard to grasp that as a human cause we all have a beginning. I don't know if you've ever been told or thought that God had no beginning but I'd like to know.

When it says" in the beginning was the word", It's talking about Jesus christ but he couldn't be God because he had a beginning.

This is a reach at best you are reading more into the verse than is there. The verse means He (Jesus the Word) was always there with God and HE (Jesus the Word) is God. I have never heard any other interpretation except for those non-trinitarian groups who are so vexed by it that they intentionally mis-translate the verse. Verse 2 says He (Jesus the Word) He was in the beginning with God, again as you said a finite human mind cannot comprehend the infinite nature of God so John worded it the way he did. John wrote the first 5 verses of his gospel as a direct refutation of this line of thinking.

Col 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

Then we go back to John 1:2 and 3. I'm gonna quote from the NKJV because it may be easier to understand.

2 "He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

This goes along with Colossians because it shows that he was the firstborn of all creation. God's first creation.

So based on these two points It's impossible to say that the word as described as Jesus Christ is god almighty.

FRomThe Watchman Expositor:

Linguistic Context

The argument that "firstborn" means "firstcreated" in Col. 1:15 can seem true when one considers the pool of meaning for the word (although "first offspring" would better reflect the meaning of the Greek word used here: prototokos). "First created" is one of the many, and even more literal meanings of the word. The problem is that the context clearly shows that "first created" was not Paul's intended meaning in Colossians.

Paul uses the same basic word for "all things" in vv.16-17 as he used in his expression "every creature" (all creation) in v.15. Syntactically then, Paul says Jesus existed before (v. 17), created (v.16) and sustains (v.17) that set of things of which he is the "first born" (v.15), i.e., the set of "all creation." This agrees with John, who says, "In the beginning was the Word (literal Greek "...was existing the Word." John's use of the imperfect tense shows continuous duration of existence in the past).... All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made" (John 1:1,3).

If Paul had meant "first created" when he wrote prototokos, at Col. 1:15, then his following statements make Christ Himself a part of those very things which Paul says Christ created and sustains, and before which He existed

After research I found this this book

The Four Gospels Harmonized and Translated, by Count Leo Tolstoy. It was published in 1895. I have a quote from it.

"If it says that in the beginning was the comprehension, or word, and that the word was to God, or with God, or for God, it is impossible to go on and say that it was God. If it was God, it could stand in no relation to God."

So maybe the translation is saying the word is a kind of God or is of God. It is confusing and I always have more reading to do but Like I said based on the other points I believe it makes it impossible to say Jesus is God.

I don't think the apostle John would say that someone "the word" was with some other individual "god" and at the same time was that other individual. You know what I'm saying?

I have a 10 volume set of books called the Ante Nicene Fathers which compiles all the writings of the early church writers I will post a few of their opinions on the subject of Jesus deity. There are literally thousands of lines of their writings that I can quote but time won't permit it. I am fully aware that these are not scripture but seeing as how these men are so close to the Apostolic fathers, Iranaeus for example was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John, it stands to reason they were taught the Apostles teachings. So with apology to the good Count the Early fathers disagree with him, so who am I to believe?

The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
I do not speak of things strange to me, nor do I aim at anything inconsistent with right reason; but having been a disciple of the Apostles, I am become a teacher of the Gentiles. I minister the things delivered to me to those that are disciples worthy of the truth. For who that is rightly taught and begotten by the loving Word, would not seek to learn accurately the things which have been clearly shown by the Word to His disciples, to whom the Word being manifested has revealed them, speaking plainly [to them], not understood indeed by the unbelieving, but conversing with the disciples, who, being esteemed faithful by Him, acquired a knowledge of the mysteries of the Father? For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son

150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
150 AD Justin Martyr: Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63)

170s AD Athenagoras: That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being--I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos];
180 AD Irenaeus (Quoting John 1:1) "’...and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God." - Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 8, section 5
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)
180 AD Irenaeus Christ Jesus, the Son of God, because of His surpassing love for His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin." - Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 4, section 2
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man" (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 2)

Hippolytus "He who is over all, God blessed, has been born, and having been made man. He is God forever. For to this effect John also has said, 'Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.' And well has he named Christ the Almighty." - Against Noetus, Part 6
"The Logos is God, being the substance of God." - Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch. 29.
"For Christ is the God above all..." - Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch 30.
 
This is a reach at best you are reading more into the verse than is there. The verse means He (Jesus the Word) was always there with God and HE (Jesus the Word) is God. I have never heard any other interpretation except for those non-trinitarian groups who are so vexed by it that they intentionally mis-translate the verse. Verse 2 says He (Jesus the Word) He was in the beginning with God, again as you said a finite X, ch 30.

Too myself it makes total sense. For so many the trinity is confusing. They just believe it because they are told to. I questioned it and found "my" answers. I think I supplied some very solid evidence. You can do what you want with it. If you've never heard any other interpretation of it well now you have! I don't think the verse was intentionally mis-translated. It says "the word was god" in the vast majority of bibles. The question you have to ask yourself is how is the word God? All the scriptures I showed you provide you with what I believe to be the answers.

Hey bro, don't have time to look at all your post, gotta head to bed. I'll definetly be looking over it all and spending some more time in the library this week. ttyl.
 
I believe Jesus is the first of God's creations(God's son) God called him his son and Jesus called God his father. If God says "Thats my son", I believe him. If Jesus says "My father is greater" I believe him. Since Jesus never preached that him and God were equal, and he would Sit on God's right hand I believe that the trinity is designed by man and not God.

John 8:58 (New King James Version)
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is one of several I AM statements Jesus made about himself in the NT that mirror the I AM statements of Yahweh in the OT. The Jewish leadership knew exactly what Jesus was saying when he used them as they sought to stone him for saying he was GOD.

Philippians 2:5-7 (New King James Version)

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

This is a concept that you and Flaw clearly cannot understand Jesus was sent to take on human flesh so that he could take upon himself all of our sins on the cross. He "emptied himself" as one translation puts it. What does that mean? Referring to Philippians 2:5-7, John Calvin wrote: "In order to exhort us to submission by His example, he shows, that when as God he might have displayed to the world the brightness of His glory, he gave up His right, and voluntarily emptied Himself; that he assumed the form of a servant, and, contented with that humble condition, suffered His divinity to be concealed under a veil of flesh."

As to HIS being called "Son Of God" There are 4 “Son Of” titles given to Jesus in Scripture

The Son of Adam- Means he is a man (Son of Man) within the lineage of humanity. Surely this doesn't mean Eve birthed him as your literal interpretation would suggest. Or do you want to be literal only when it suits your argument? While that would be very convenient it wouldn't be very honest.

Son of David- Means Jesus is a King a descendant of David being an heir to his throne. Again not literally David's son.

Son of Abraham- Means Jesus is of a Jewish descent.
Not Abraham's son either in fact Jesus said in John 8:58 (New King James Version) 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Another I AM statement.

Son of God –Means Jesus is God just as the Father is God. The phrase "Son of"- is used among the ancients to refer to one who has the same nature as...Son of God, means he has the same nature as God. He was called THE Son of God, being uniquely like God, being in fact God. John 10:30 (New King James Version) 30 I and My Father are one.”
 
The vast overwhelming majority of Christendom has always and will always believe in triune nature of God and most certainly the divinity of Jesus. I believe the preponderance of evidence supports both of these positions. You are of course free to believe as you will, there are thankfully no more inquisitions to knock down our doors and drag us away for having beliefs that differ from the majority.
 
Honestly, we can go round and round about the trinity and never convince each other. Its a subject that I can continue to reason with scriptures to disprove it. To me the trinity is a stretch but I have to respect people who believe in it-especially those who are willing to use scriptures to back it up. I think its funny to see how many religions are out there that all use the same book to back up their beliefs. People can use the same bible and get all kinds of different meanings. Dan Browns book The Lost Symbol, to me has a whacked idea of the bible.
Whats is important is to know how God wants to be worshiped. I don't think that any Christian religion should have adopted pagan practices to convert people as they did in the past (I'm not talking about the trinity) but its a problem I see in most religions today.
 
In some respects, this thread has been one of the most informative discussions on Christianty I have ever been privy to LOLOL. Nuts that it came from a BB'er Board!

Excellent information from many here. Thanks to all who provided such meaningful insight and most importantly, backed their information up with the BIBLE as opposed to more useless conjecture (we al don't need)!

Bravo ;)
 
I was watching some show on TV the other night, the show was called the lost Gospels. Supposedly there are a few missing Gospels one was written by Mary Magdalene another by Peter and another by Judas. They were saying that at one time there were alot of written doctrine, and the top people had a meeting and basically decided what to put into the Bible that we know today and what to leave out. Just wondering what to make of all that. What do you guys think??
 
I was watching some show on TV the other night, the show was called the lost Gospels. Supposedly there are a few missing Gospels one was written by Mary Magdalene another by Peter and another by Judas. They were saying that at one time there were alot of written doctrine, and the top people had a meeting and basically decided what to put into the Bible that we know today and what to leave out. Just wondering what to make of all that. What do you guys think??

Garbage, don't waste your time with those shows. Those documents(not gospels) were well know to the mainstream church at the time they were "discovered"and were completely rejected due to the fanciful, legendary type of information they contained. Most were written by heretical sects who magically dug them up and lo and behold they were full of support for their gnostic or other rejected philosophies. This is why I think it's important to spend some time studying the history of the church and it's writers, it clears up a lot of these controversies if you know what the early church beliefs/practices were. I have had numerous debates with my JW friend about the First Council of Nicaea as he claims it was during the council that these books were thrown out and the doctrine of the Trinity were established etc, if he knew his church history he would know that the books had already been rejected by the majority of Christendom and the Doctrine of the Trinity was already accepted by the majority as well. In reality First Council of Nicaea was an attempt to come to a consensus about major issues and an attempt to correct heresies that had crept into the church, it didn't really succeed at either imo. We love a good conspiracy theory don't we? I have read some of these books actually and they are pretty interesting and writings of Peter are mentioned by a few of the early church fathers, writings that we don't have so maybe this is one of them? It's available to be read online as are most of the other pseudepigraphal books. Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdalene and Gospel of Judas are all gnostic books written by gnostic sects wanting to validate their heresy, read them and see for yourself if you feel they are scriptural.
 
Colossians 1:15-17

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Firstborn (the ancient Greek word prototokos) can describe either priority in time or supremacy in rank. As Paul uses it here as Jesus being before all created things and Jesus being of a supremely different order than all created things. In no way does the title firstborn indicate that Jesus is less than God. Also keep in mind that Paul often preaches and teaches "Christians" of the time specifically with the intent to protect them from false doctrines.

Verse 16 and 17 qualify verse 15 in defining who He is as firstborn. His firstborn title is of supremacy; the creator - God.

JW and LDS pervert this gospel verse to interpret it as Jesus being a "first born spirit child" of God, equating him with angels, Satan, and ourselves as members of God's "spirit children" family. This is a lie. This is the difference between Christianity and those who use the term Christian in their denomination yet are not Christian at all.

I will emphasize one more time that anything that defies and denies the deity of Christ is not Christian. Christ is God.
 
Colossians 1:15-17

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Firstborn (the ancient Greek word prototokos) can describe either priority in time or supremacy in rank. As Paul uses it here as Jesus being before all created things and Jesus being of a supremely different order than all created things. In no way does the title firstborn indicate that Jesus is less than God. Also keep in mind that Paul often preaches and teaches "Christians" of the time specifically with the intent to protect them from false doctrines.

Verse 16 and 17 qualify verse 15 in defining who He is as firstborn. His firstborn title is of supremacy; the creator - God.

JW and LDS pervert this gospel verse to interpret it as Jesus being a "first born spirit child" of God, equating him with angels, Satan, and ourselves as members of God's "spirit children" family. This is a lie. This is the difference between Christianity and those who use the term Christian in their denomination yet are not Christian at all.

I will emphasize one more time that anything that defies and denies the deity of Christ is not Christian. Christ is God.

^^^THIS^^^
 
Not true and I don't agree. Thats not the definition of a Christian. The trinity is a doctrine, a theory that many people believe. Just because you believe it, it doesn't make it true. Its like the theory evolution.
Again, the trinity wasn't taught by Jesus and not in the bible.


The Illustrated Bible Dictionary records: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the Trinity "is not. . . directly and immediately the word of God."


The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics records: At first the Christian Faith was not Trinitarian. . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings."
L. L. Paine, professor of Ecclesiastical History acknowledged: "The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there . . . is utterly without foundation."


The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia also admits: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."


Jesuit Edmund Fortman wrote in his book, The Triune God: ". . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. . . Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."


The New Encyclopedia Britannica reports: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology confirms: "The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman similarly states: "The New Testament writers. . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."


Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirms in the Origin and Evolution of Religion: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . .they say nothing about it."


Historian Arthur Weigall records in The Paganism in Our Christianity: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia notes: "The formulation 'one god in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."


The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."


The Encyclopedia Americana plainly reports: "Fourth Century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."


The Ethnic Trinities by L. L. Paine, page 219, states that the development of the trinity was an evolutionary process. "The Christian dogma did not start from a polytheistic or pantheistic ground, but from Jewish monotheism; but the development from one God to a trinity was just as completely a historical evolution as any other."


The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge plainly documents the historical influence that Greek Philosophy had on the development of the Trinity:
"The doctrine of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who. . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied."
The book entitled, The Church of the Fist Three Centuries acknowledges: "The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation: . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."


The Platonizing Fathers were the Greek Philosophers that became Christian but continued to follow the teachings of Plato. These Philosophers mixed Christians Ideas with Pagan Greek Philosophy to formulate the concept of a three person Godhead. The apostle Paul warned the Greek Colossian city, "Beware lest any man cheat you through philosophy and vain deceit. . .(Colossians 2:8)"


What kind of philosophy was Paul warning about? Since Paul was addressing a Greek city, he must have been warning about the entrance of Greek Philosophical Thought. The Platonic Fathers also known as Greek Apologists were the first to introduce Pagan Trinitarian Thought into Christianity.


Church Historian Adolf Harnack states that the Church Fathers which developed the Nicene Creed were Platonists who appealed to Plato in support of the Trinity. Volume 4. Page 88: "Science concluded on alliance with the Nicene Creed; that was a condition of the triumph of orthodoxy. . . These men took their stand on the general theory of the universe which was accepted by the science of the time; they were Platonists, and they once more naively appealed to Plato in support even of their doctrine of the Trinity."
Church Historian Jaroslav Pelikan states in his book - The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition - that Greek Platonic elements were unmistakably present in the Trinitarian definition of One God in "three persons."


"The doctrine of the Trinity. . .must be interpreted in a manner that would be consistent with this a priori definition of the deity of God (One essence, three persons). Neoplatonic elements were unmistakably present in this definition. . ."


The New Catholic Encyclopedia vol. 10, page 335 admits: "From the middle of the 4th century onward, however, Christian thought was strongly influenced by Neo-platonic philosophy and mysticism."


Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, that church doctrine became "firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians."


Andrew Norton declares in the book "A Statement of Reasons" that the Trinity originated not from the Bible, but from Platonic Philosophy: "We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.


A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge records that many historians believe that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith."
Edward Gibbons's History of Christianity notes: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."


Siegfried Morenz, in the book 'Egyptian Religion' notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . These gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."


James Hastings wrote in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic views of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality. which is triadically represented."

The French New Universal Dictionary reveals both Plato's Greek Philosophical Influence upon Christianity and that of ancient pagan religions: "The Platonic Trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian Churches. . . Thus Greek philosophers conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient pagan religions."


L. L. Paine records that the Trinity idea stems from Pagan Roots: ". . . among the more highly civilized Chaldaeans, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Egyptians, triads of gods were a common and notable feature of their theogonies."


H. P. Blavatsky in Isis Unveiled (pages 45,46), reveals that the Trinity Dogma originated from Babylon:
"We find it northeast of the Indus; and tracing it to Asia Minor and Europe, recognize it among every people who had anything like an established religion. It was taught in the oldest Chaldaean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldaean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the trinitarian idea of the Chaldaeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity. According to Rawlinson, the Chaldaeans are a tribe of the Akkadians, who lived in Babylonia from the earliest of times."


In Revelation 17:1-5, the Bible gives ample warning to beware of the Apostasy which would emanate from Babylon:
". . . I will show you the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with fold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."


The Pagan idea of a Trinity of three personal gods clearly originated in ancient Babylon. It was from ancient Babylon that all Pagan Religions had their original source. When God dispersed the ancients at the tower of Babel, they settled throughout the world with their concept of a metaphysical trinity firmly entrenched. It was from this source that Christianity has been infiltrated. Babylon is the Mother of all false religion.
 
We can go back and forth all day with posts that contend and dispute yours.

This has gone way OT.

Favorite Bible Quotes

1 Corinthians 1:18-25

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 
We can go back and forth all day with posts that contend and dispute yours.

This has gone way OT.

Favorite Bible Quotes

1 Corinthians 1:18-25

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Out of respect I will not refute each point in omni's previous post although I could very easily do so with quotations/citations but as you say this has gone way off the original topic. A great passage from one of my favorite books.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Leviticus 19:28
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
 
Leviticus 19:28
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

WHOA! I had no idea the Bible actually spoke about tats. I always assumed they were unbliblical b/c our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit but I did not know there was a specific passage about it! Thanks!
 
Leviticus 19:28
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

awesome post, it is funny because a retired pastor who goes to our church sends out a weekly email with some thoughts, etc. and recently it spoke about the issue of tattoos and why they are not Biblical and brought this verse up.

I love this verse because it shows how practical and every day the Bible can be. Yes, there is prophecy and symbolism and it is rich in both, however it is also a daily guide for how we are to live, and speaks directly about all areas of life. Now specifics are not always addressed, but overall principals are given. I also love how this shows how specific the Bible can often be, dont do this, period, there is no interpretation necessary, no argument. I guess I am really simple, and did a great job of messing things up trying to run my own life because I love the Bible and the Christian faith because it tells me what to do, why I should do it, how I should do it and what to believe, takes much of the guesswork out of life for me. In my eyes that is a HUGE positive, although not everyone else will see it that way.
 
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