Epitome worth it???

Dukethumper

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I have a very interesting idea, I am on a cut right now, I was planning on adding the shielded stack, Oxymax, Epitome, and Vector, due to a chance to increase muscle gains while losing fact. Would the epitome be worth throwing in for the appetite suppresent?
 
LeanEngineer

LeanEngineer

Legend
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
It probably reacts differently depending on the person. So some will get good results and others may not but I've used Oxymax before and that alone will get you good results whether you have the appetite suppresent or not.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I have a very interesting idea, I am on a cut right now, I was planning on adding the shielded stack, Oxymax, Epitome, and Vector, due to a chance to increase muscle gains while losing fact. Would the epitome be worth throwing in for the appetite suppresent?
Epitome is probably one of the most unique approaches to a fat burner on the market. The problem is, most people don't really "get" it. It isn't going to burn fat like most fat burners claim. The approach is totally different.

When we are in a caloric deficit, the theory is that our body makes hormonal changes. Now, I'm the guy arguing that "starvation mode" isn't real, but I'm not denying the validity of these hormonal changes. Leptin levels, in particular, drop. And the leaner you get the more they drop. Epitome tends to "normalize" leptin levels.

If you are over 15% bodyfat, I would think the benefits of Epitome will be real, but very subtle. As you get leaner (under 12-13%), the effects will become more pronounced and the appetite suppression most people speak of will be more pronounced because your leptin levels will be higher than if you weren't using it.

If you can mentally go long periods without a cheat or refeed, epitome will also help you avoid the leptin changes that long term deficits create. In other words, you can go longer without a refeed/cheat and thus see results more quickly because you're not taking a step back to avoid stalling.
 

Dukethumper

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Epitome is probably one of the most unique approaches to a fat burner on the market. The problem is, most people don't really "get" it. It isn't going to burn fat like most fat burners claim. The approach is totally different.

When we are in a caloric deficit, the theory is that our body makes hormonal changes. Now, I'm the guy arguing that "starvation mode" isn't real, but I'm not denying the validity of these hormonal changes. Leptin levels, in particular, drop. And the leaner you get the more they drop. Epitome tends to "normalize" leptin levels.

If you are over 15% bodyfat, I would think the benefits of Epitome will be real, but very subtle. As you get leaner (under 12-13%), the effects will become more pronounced and the appetite suppression most people speak of will be more pronounced because your leptin levels will be higher than if you weren't using it.

If you can mentally go long periods without a cheat or refeed, epitome will also help you avoid the leptin changes that long term deficits create. In other words, you can go longer without a refeed/cheat and thus see results more quickly because you're not taking a step back to avoid stalling.
Or how would it work with Vector due to Vector making more appetite
 

InItForGainz

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think OxyMax will have you covered for appetite suppression. I think adding something like BRITE or a topical would be more beneficial and provide another angle/pathway of fat loss...

GlycoShield-GDA (Capped/Oral Non-Stim)
LipoShield-Fat Gain Inhibitor (Powdered/Drinkable Non-Stim)
OxyMax-Appetite Suppression+Thermogenic (Capped/Oral Stim)
BRITE-Conversion Of Inactive White Fat Cells Into Metabolically Active Beige/Brite Fat Cells (Sublingual Non Stim)
SuperNova-For Subcutaneous Fat (Topical Non-Stim)

Has the profile for Vector been released yet?
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nac
RecompMan

RecompMan

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.
Over 20% fat you probably have some sort of leptin resistance as well which is in part what the next part of the shielded stack WILL tackle amongst other things.

Some GDAand fat burning ingredients Reduce leptin so make sure you take Epitome away from those dosings IMO
 
cheftepesh1

cheftepesh1

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.
I have heard both good and bad. Like most people I would say its something you have to try for yourself in order to see how it works for you. There are always other options.
 
RecompMan

RecompMan

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I think OxyMax will have you covered for appetite suppression. I think adding something like BRITE or a topical would be more beneficial and provide another angle/pathway of fat loss...

GlycoShield-GDA (Capped/Oral Non-Stim)
LipoShield-Fat Gain Inhibitor (Powdered/Drinkable Non-Stim)
OxyMax-Appetite Suppression+Thermogenic (Capped/Oral Stim)
BRITE-Conversion Of Inactive White Fat Cells Into Metabolically Active Beige/Brite Fat Cells (Sublingual Non Stim)
SuperNova-For Subcutaneous Fat (Topical Non-Stim)

Has the profile for Vector been released yet?
Matt would have a better answer on how his products will work with the above. since my diet is very unusually i would be taking pills/powders every 2-3 hours until about 30 min prior to meals. then repeat .

Everything is diet depending.
 
RecompMan

RecompMan

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
So how would it work with the shielded stack?
how are you going to be dosing the stack.

i would potentially dose it with the liposheild 2 hours before the glycoshield

It starts becoming complex IMO if you start straying away from the intended stack Epitome is intended for
 

Dukethumper

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
how are you going to be dosing the stack.

i would potentially dose it with the liposheild 2 hours before the glycoshield

It starts becoming complex IMO if you start straying away from the intended stack Epitome is intended for
I was thinking mixing Lyposhield with my preworkout and taking Glycoshield with my first meal with Lyposhield again
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Over 20% fat you probably have some sort of leptin resistance as well which is in part what the next part of the shielded stack WILL tackle amongst other things.

Some GDAand fat burning ingredients Reduce leptin so make sure you take Epitome away from those dosings IMO
Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.
 
dsade

dsade

NutraPlanet Fanatic
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.
At higher body fat levels, leptin levels are elevated and leptin resistance is very high. Leptin generally sends a satiation signal, which tells us we've eaten enough and STOP. Leptin resistance means that your brain isn't seeing this signal, and keeps generating that "EAT EAT" message.

As well, as Leptin levels rise over normal, and Leptin resistance becomes a major factor, the body is also screaming to hold onto that extra bodyfat, and metabolism tanks. It's a highly destructive, perpetuating cycle that makes it incredibly difficult to drop from higher body fat levels (25%>) down to normal range.
 
cheftepesh1

cheftepesh1

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
At higher body fat levels, leptin levels are elevated and leptin resistance is very high. Leptin generally sends a satiation signal, which tells us we've eaten enough and STOP. Leptin resistance means that your brain isn't seeing this signal, and keeps generating that "EAT EAT" message.

As well, as Leptin levels rise over normal, and Leptin resistance becomes a major factor, the body is also screaming to hold onto that extra bodyfat, and metabolism tanks. It's a highly destructive, perpetuating cycle that makes it incredibly difficult to drop from higher body fat levels (25%>) down to normal range.
This is what I would want it for.
 

Josh141090

Member
Awards
0
dsade ... for someone with higher body fat levels, what would you recommend stacking with Epitome? Alphaburn? Defuse? AA? Supernova?
Can you also provide some recommendations on optimal timing to use the products you recommend?
 
Young Gotti

Young Gotti

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • RockStar
i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
 

Josh141090

Member
Awards
0
i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
What would you recommend? I’m also considering OL Assass1nate and Primeval Labs Pyretic
 
Young Gotti

Young Gotti

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • RockStar
What would you recommend? I’m also considering OL Assass1nate and Primeval Labs Pyretic
i dont' have experience with either but imo pyretic looks like a nice product for a stim free fat burner
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
dsade ... for someone with higher body fat levels, what would you recommend stacking with Epitome? Alphaburn? Defuse? AA? Supernova?
Can you also provide some recommendations on optimal timing to use the products you recommend?
What is your diet protocol like? What range are you in for bodyfat %? IMO if you are 25%+ and not doing a large volume of exercise and/or dieting with a large caloric deficit, Epitome will have an effect but it may be less noticeable than what most people expect. After you have been dieting for a while and are at a lower bodyfat % you can use epitome to help push progress without needing as many cheat meals and without having a leptin crash sabotage you.

For some people, Epitome has a strong appetite suppressing effect but not for everyone. If you have normal leptin response and dieting is causing your leptin levels to drop - then it will likely keep your appetite at bay because it will help keep those leptin levels higher as if you were not dieting.

i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
What was your bodyfat %? What was your expectation? Epitome is not at all your typical weight loss agent and it is a little hard for us to explain how to fit it into the strategy for weight loss...we are working on that. I think Defuse has a similar issue- a lot of people use it daily like it is a regular fat burner...and while there is a protocol for daily use, it needs to fit into an overall strategy.
 
Young Gotti

Young Gotti

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • RockStar
What is your diet protocol like? What range are you in for bodyfat %? IMO if you are 25%+ and not doing a large volume of exercise and/or dieting with a large caloric deficit, Epitome will have an effect but it may be less noticeable than what most people expect. After you have been dieting for a while and are at a lower bodyfat % you can use epitome to help push progress without needing as many cheat meals and without having a leptin crash sabotage you.

For some people, Epitome has a strong appetite suppressing effect but not for everyone. If you have normal leptin response and dieting is causing your leptin levels to drop - then it will likely keep your appetite at bay because it will help keep those leptin levels higher as if you were not dieting.



What was your bodyfat %? What was your expectation? Epitome is not at all your typical weight loss agent and it is a little hard for us to explain how to fit it into the strategy for weight loss...we are working on that. I think Defuse has a similar issue- a lot of people use it daily like it is a regular fat burner...and while there is a protocol for daily use, it needs to fit into an overall strategy.
it was a few years ago at this point, probably between 15 and 17% and like any fat burner, I just want to see some improved body shape, less visable body fat and not to feel like trash while taking it, which usually is only from crazy stimulants
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
it was a few years ago at this point, probably between 15 and 17% and like any fat burner, I just want to see some improved body shape, less visable body fat and not to feel like trash while taking it, which usually is only from crazy stimulants
Yeah, so the idea behind epitome is that when we diet, we have some changes that make long-term success more difficult. One of these big metabolic changes involves leptin which regulates appetite and metabolic rate (among other things). I think you probably understand leptin - but for others - the idea is that our fat cells release leptin as they fill, and thus the more we fill fat, the more leptin is released. Leptin, as it gets to our brain, signals our brain to "increase" metabolic processes and turns off hunger/makes us full.

As our fat cells shrink, leptin levels go in reverse and drop. This obviously increases our hunger, but also is an underlying mechanism for the "metabolic slowdown" that supposedly happens with dieting. This leptin drop creates a double-edged sword - our metabolism is slower and we are hungrier. If you have ever been on a severe diet with lots of exercise for a period of time - you may have one day woken up and been ravenous and out-of-control with your cravings for things - that's an extreme effect of leptin dropping.

One way to combat this leptin drop is to have cheat meals - which are great but they have to be infrequent and even if they are infrequent they will set your caloric deficit back a little. Most people accept this because it's 1 step back and 2 steps forward.

If you are very lean (near or below 10% for instance), then leptin will be low because you have so little fat on your body - which also increases hunger and causes a more aggressive response to caloric restriction. I hate to use the term starvation mode but it's the basic idea.

And if you are extremely obese you probably have a lot of leptin floating around but it no longer works - you have become resistant to its effects because it has been elevated so much for so long.

What epitome does is "normalize" leptin levels. So if you are obese and have elevated leptin, it will actually help lower the leptin levels and combat the leptin resistence that is seen.

If you are lean, it will bring up leptin levels even though you have low bodyfat (which is why some people claim it is such a great appetite suppresant)

And if you use it long-term during a diet, it will help to avoid the leptin crashes from dieting, which will allow you to not require as many cheat meals and thus not have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward - you can just keep dieting and leptin will stay in range.

So, it's not exactly a "fat burner" per se - it's just part of the arsenal. It's a very different approach than you see in any other product, in my humble opinion.

But for straight appetite suppression, a single stand-alone burner, other products may at least promise more.
 
u_e_s_i

u_e_s_i

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.
@OP If you’re at ~18%+ BF but not obese or afflicted with diabetes or lepton resistence then your body should be able to shed fat without much of a problem if your diet’s in check. In such a scenario more ‘direct’ fat burners will be of the most help. Think products with stims (not too much caffeine (300mg+ a day) tho as that increases cortisol) and substances that liberate fatty acids. Yohimbine may be good if you tolerate it well.
Once you’re sub 18% tho and especially if you’re eating keto or otherwise low-carb (<75g a day) then epitome will be useful. I haven’t tried it yet myself but theoretically it looks like a great product and I’ll be using it during my next cut. It’ll also be useful if, like me, eating 150g+ carbs without substantial fat or fructose or sucrose, a day on the regular is hard for you

I’m keen to hear what folks who’ve tried epitome have to say about it
 
u_e_s_i

u_e_s_i

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yeah, so the idea behind epitome is that when we diet, we have some changes that make long-term success more difficult. One of these big metabolic changes involves leptin which regulates appetite and metabolic rate (among other things). I think you probably understand leptin - but for others - the idea is that our fat cells release leptin as they fill, and thus the more we fill fat, the more leptin is released. Leptin, as it gets to our brain, signals our brain to "increase" metabolic processes and turns off hunger/makes us full.

As our fat cells shrink, leptin levels go in reverse and drop. This obviously increases our hunger, but also is an underlying mechanism for the "metabolic slowdown" that supposedly happens with dieting. This leptin drop creates a double-edged sword - our metabolism is slower and we are hungrier. If you have ever been on a severe diet with lots of exercise for a period of time - you may have one day woken up and been ravenous and out-of-control with your cravings for things - that's an extreme effect of leptin dropping.

One way to combat this leptin drop is to have cheat meals - which are great but they have to be infrequent and even if they are infrequent they will set your caloric deficit back a little. Most people accept this because it's 1 step back and 2 steps forward.

If you are very lean (near or below 10% for instance), then leptin will be low because you have so little fat on your body - which also increases hunger and causes a more aggressive response to caloric restriction. I hate to use the term starvation mode but it's the basic idea.

And if you are extremely obese you probably have a lot of leptin floating around but it no longer works - you have become resistant to its effects because it has been elevated so much for so long.

What epitome does is "normalize" leptin levels. So if you are obese and have elevated leptin, it will actually help lower the leptin levels and combat the leptin resistence that is seen.

If you are lean, it will bring up leptin levels even though you have low bodyfat (which is why some people claim it is such a great appetite suppresant)

And if you use it long-term during a diet, it will help to avoid the leptin crashes from dieting, which will allow you to not require as many cheat meals and thus not have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward - you can just keep dieting and leptin will stay in range.

So, it's not exactly a "fat burner" per se - it's just part of the arsenal. It's a very different approach than you see in any other product, in my humble opinion.

But for straight appetite suppression, a single stand-alone burner, other products may at least promise more.
Also, I have a question. So I’ve heard that the ‘boost’ in lepton levels refeeds give is from the filling up of fat cells. For recent refeeds I’ve been taking Evomuse’ Defuse, which is a nutrient partitioner that’s meant to reduce the amount of fat gain from chest meals and refeeds. Would taking Defuse be detrimental to the effectiveness of the refeed? What about for GDAs like Performax Slinmax, bitter melon etc?
 
cubsfan815

cubsfan815

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Also, I have a question. So I’ve heard that the ‘boost’ in lepton levels refeeds give is from the filling up of fat cells. For recent refeeds I’ve been taking Evomuse’ Defuse, which is a nutrient partitioner that’s meant to reduce the amount of fat gain from chest meals and refeeds. Would taking Defuse be detrimental to the effectiveness of the refeed? What about for GDAs like Performax Slinmax, bitter melon etc?
What are the cheat meals like? Are they higher carbs than usual? Higher fat? SlinMax can help if it's a high carb meal, you will feel less bloated and sluggish. It can also help create insane pumps after the meal. If your cheat is high fat and calories then Defuse or LipoShield would be better.

With that said, you really need to play around and see what works best. If you are going 3 or 4 weeks with no cheats or refeeds, then you might want to try not using a GDA or similar and see how your body reacts.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Also, I have a question. So I’ve heard that the ‘boost’ in lepton levels refeeds give is from the filling up of fat cells. For recent refeeds I’ve been taking Evomuse’ Defuse, which is a nutrient partitioner that’s meant to reduce the amount of fat gain from chest meals and refeeds. Would taking Defuse be detrimental to the effectiveness of the refeed? What about for GDAs like Performax Slinmax, bitter melon etc?
Ahhh...taking this to the next level. I believe you are the one who was talking about Defuse increasing insulin resistance with long-term use, correct? Which is why Matt recommends not using it for prolonged periods. And this is what I've been discussing a lot with Matt - Evomuse has very different angles and tools for fat loss and I don't think they are easy enough to grasp. How you use each tool for which situation can be quite complicated.

The way I envision Defuse is - when we diet, no one is perfect and we often fall off the wagon. Holidays, birthdays, whatever - things come up and we have meals that are not planned. Yes, these meals can have a positive impact on metabolic processes - but they can also have a bigger impact on immediate weight loss.

This is kind of the difference between a structured refeed and a "cheat meal". With a refeed you will create a small surplus but the impact on your weight loss will be minimal. You may gain some water weight, but it's not like a full-on cheat. dsade may disagree on this, but this is not the optimal use IMO for Defuse. It will inhibit some of the fat storage and reduce the metabolic response. It may not abolish it, especially at the 45 day protocol, but it will inhibit the positive response. I think in this situation, if a GDA doesn't increase insulin sensitivity in a fat cell as well as muscle cells - it would also inhibit this leptin response because muscles will suck up the glucose and leave little for fat storage (in theory).

With a cheat meal, the potential for the negatives to outweigh that positive response become more likely. If you go out to a restaurant and get an appetizer and a bacon cheeseburger with fries and a slice of cake - that's not a refeed. That's probably 2000-2500 calories right there or more (in one meal) and it can have a bigger impact on your goals than the metabolic response you will get. This is the perfect situation for defuse. It's about the balance of the positives/negatives of the refeeds.

And of course, I think most people think that insulin sensitivity in a fat cell isn't ideal, but I disagree. The more I research, the more I think that trying to shut-off insulin sensitivity in fat is counter-productive; but the industry has gone in the opposite direction for so long and on the surface making fat cells less able to store fat makes sense. And Evomuse has probably made the most progress in accomplishing this, but it's a tool and not the entire story.

Also, if you are using the 45 day 2X2 protocol, you will inhibit fat storage but not shut it down. At the end of the day, the thing to keep in mind is you can easily take 3 steps back by gaining a bunch of fat, but the metabolic benefits of a refeed will only give you 2 steps forward at best. The metabolic changes, basically, are more subtle/minimal than people often expect as far as the overall weight loss is concerned.

This is a good example of how to combine the tools though - if you are using Epitome, which normalizes the leptin response - not only will you not need as many refeeds or cheats, but if you use defuse, the impact to the positives will be lesser because Epitome is going to normalize the leptin function anyway.

In my eyes, maybe I would say Epitome is kind of a longer-term metabolic health product that supports your dieting efforts over time. Defuse is a short term "band-aid" for real life situations that will set you back. I know using the term "band-aid" is normally negative, but it is what it is here. The "solution" is not to cheat at all - but the reality is we take our bumps and it is best to "Defuse" the damage and move on. (sorry...couldn't resist)
 
u_e_s_i

u_e_s_i

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Ahhh...taking this to the next level. I believe you are the one who was talking about Defuse increasing insulin resistance with long-term use, correct? Which is why Matt recommends not using it for prolonged periods. And this is what I've been discussing a lot with Matt - Evomuse has very different angles and tools for fat loss and I don't think they are easy enough to grasp. How you use each tool for which situation can be quite complicated.

The way I envision Defuse is - when we diet, no one is perfect and we often fall off the wagon. Holidays, birthdays, whatever - things come up and we have meals that are not planned. Yes, these meals can have a positive impact on metabolic processes - but they can also have a bigger impact on immediate weight loss.

This is kind of the difference between a structured refeed and a "cheat meal". With a refeed you will create a small surplus but the impact on your weight loss will be minimal. You may gain some water weight, but it's not like a full-on cheat. dsade may disagree on this, but this is not the optimal use IMO for Defuse. It will inhibit some of the fat storage and reduce the metabolic response. It may not abolish it, especially at the 45 day protocol, but it will inhibit the positive response. I think in this situation, if a GDA doesn't increase insulin sensitivity in a fat cell as well as muscle cells - it would also inhibit this leptin response because muscles will suck up the glucose and leave little for fat storage (in theory).

With a cheat meal, the potential for the negatives to outweigh that positive response become more likely. If you go out to a restaurant and get an appetizer and a bacon cheeseburger with fries and a slice of cake - that's not a refeed. That's probably 2000-2500 calories right there or more (in one meal) and it can have a bigger impact on your goals than the metabolic response you will get. This is the perfect situation for defuse. It's about the balance of the positives/negatives of the refeeds.

And of course, I think most people think that insulin sensitivity in a fat cell isn't ideal, but I disagree. The more I research, the more I think that trying to shut-off insulin sensitivity in fat is counter-productive; but the industry has gone in the opposite direction for so long and on the surface making fat cells less able to store fat makes sense. And Evomuse has probably made the most progress in accomplishing this, but it's a tool and not the entire story.

Also, if you are using the 45 day 2X2 protocol, you will inhibit fat storage but not shut it down. At the end of the day, the thing to keep in mind is you can easily take 3 steps back by gaining a bunch of fat, but the metabolic benefits of a refeed will only give you 2 steps forward at best. The metabolic changes, basically, are more subtle/minimal than people often expect as far as the overall weight loss is concerned.

This is a good example of how to combine the tools though - if you are using Epitome, which normalizes the leptin response - not only will you not need as many refeeds or cheats, but if you use defuse, the impact to the positives will be lesser because Epitome is going to normalize the leptin function anyway.

In my eyes, maybe I would say Epitome is kind of a longer-term metabolic health product that supports your dieting efforts over time. Defuse is a short term "band-aid" for real life situations that will set you back. I know using the term "band-aid" is normally negative, but it is what it is here. The "solution" is not to cheat at all - but the reality is we take our bumps and it is best to "Defuse" the damage and move on. (sorry...couldn't resist)
cubsfan815
Thank you, the question’s been on my mind and I’ve been looking for knowledgable folks to weigh in with their take on the theory.
I’m recomping atm so half of my meals are p50 c<15 f<15 and the other half p50 cx f<15 to fill out my macros, which are p200 c50-100 f50 on most days with weekly refeeds of p150-200 c187-237 f73.
I’ve been taking a cap or two of Performax Slinmax with 25+g carbs, depending on the quantity, and 1-3 caps of Evomuse Defuse with CLA when a meal is medium-high or high in fat.
For refeed meals I’ve been aiming for 75-100g carbs as two caps of Slinmax is meant for 50-100g carbs. I’ve been setting the 100g carbs upper bound for myself to stay within the bounds set for Slinmax but in future I think I’ll aim for 100-150g carbs for refeed meals, especially if it’s been a while since my last one, so as to make the most of Slinmax’s glycogen replenishing effect whilst also intentionally causing some carbs to be converted to fatty acids. As the contribution made by consuming excess fat towards increasing leptin is less than that made by consuming excess carbs, I will continue to use Defuse for high fat meals as the cost:benefit ratio for high fat consumption may well be weighted towards cost, from a fat loss perspective.

If it’s been 3-4weeks since the last refeed and a person’s been averaging a deficit then their glycogen stores should have room for more. So assuming cortisol isn’t particularly high, a carby meal should be utilised well by the body

Theoretically, if some of the ingredients in Defuse inhibit/hinder fatty acid storage in cells, then excess fatty acids consumed will remain in circulation in the body and will contribute towards providing energy for immediate expenditure. If this were the case then as immediate calorie consumption is at least partially fulfilled via the burning of circulating fatty acids, carb consumption would decrease. Thus this would make a larger portion of the carbs in circulation available for glycogen creation and partly fatty acid conversion. So perhaps those ingredients which inhibit fatty acid storage would indirectly boost glycogen creation
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
cubsfan815
Thank you, the question’s been on my mind and I’ve been looking for knowledgable folks to weigh in with their take on the theory.
I’ve been taking a cap or two of Performax Slinmax with carbs, depending on the quantity, and 1-3 caps of Evomuse Defuse with CLA when a meal is medium-high or high in fat.
For refeed meals I’ve been aiming for 75-100g carbs as two caps of Slinmax is meant for 50-100g carbs. I’ve been setting the 100g carbs upper bound for myself to stay within the bounds set for Slinmax but in future I think I’ll aim for 100-150g carbs for refeed meals, especially if it’s been a while since my last one, so as to make the most of Slinmax’s glycogen replenishing effect whilst also intentionally causing some carbs to be converted to fatty acids. As the contribution made by consuming excess fat towards increasing leptin is less than that made by consuming excess carbs, I will continue to use Defuse for high fat meals as the cost:benefit ratio for high fat consumption may well be weighted towards cost, from a fat loss perspective.

If it’s been 3-4weeks since the last refeed and a person’s been averaging a deficit then their glycogen stores should have room for more. So assuming cortisol isn’t particularly high, a carby meal should be utilised well by the body

Theoretically, if some of the ingredients in Defuse inhibit/hinder fatty acid storage in cells, then excess fatty acids consumed will remain in circulation in the body and will contribute towards providing energy for immediate expenditure. If this were the case then as immediate calorie consumption is at least partially fulfilled via the burning of circulating fatty acids, carb consumption would decrease. Thus this would make a larger portion of the carbs in circulation available for glycogen creation and partly fatty acid conversion. So perhaps those ingredients which inhibit fatty acid storage would indirectly boost glycogen creation
If you are on a low carb diet, inhibiting the fat storage will likely NOT increase carb production. When you go on a low carb diet, your body ramps up the utilization of fat as a substrate for energy production - elevated lipid levels will also elevate this ramp up. This has good and bad, but the dogma is that we want to "increase fat burning" - so this should push you toward that goal. Using the GDA will, in theory, shuttle excess carbs into muscles though and that is what you set out to do, and that is also something that will reverse the metabolic damage of dieting in the long run.

I think you're getting it though - Defuse is better for when you're really letting lose IMO. Which is one of the really great things about it (it's such a misunderstood product) - you can buy a bottle and it can last a LOOOOONG a s s time.
 

Similar threads


Top