Ephedraboy
Banned
I see people saying it's a PH , and some others a Steroid , what is it really?
Epi a PH or Steroid?
- Thread starter Ephedraboy
- Start date
dustinfz6r
Member
From wikipedia-
In the last two decades, pro hormones have also been used by bodybuilders, athletes, and nonmedical users of anabolic steroids and other hormones to refer to substances that are expected to convert to active hormones in the body. The intent is to provide the benefits of taking an anabolic steroid without the legal risks, and to achieve the hoped-for benefits or advantages without use of anabolic steroids themselves. Many of these compounds are legal to manufacture, sell, possess and ingest eliminating the legal problems associated with schedule III anabolic steroids. The typical definition of "prohormone" includes a steroidal molecule that has the opposite molecular structure to testosterone on either the 3a/b position or the 17b position. Testosterone has a ketone group on the 3 carbon and a hydroxyl on the 17b carbon. A steroid with modifications away from testosterone in one or both of these areas is commonly referred to as a "prohormone". These enzymatic changes occur with the body's bidirectional enzymes.[2][3]
A typical prohormone is intended to be a precursor of an anabolic steroid like testosterone, which is taken in order to boost the body’s available hormone supply. These precursors are intended to be converted to full, active hormones via an enzymatic process that occurs during metabolism, typically resulting in the addition of whichever atoms happen to be missing from the chemical structure of the compound.
Prohormones are used mainly by athletes looking to increase size, strength, endurance, reduce recovery time or add lean body mass. They are most often used for increasing muscle mass or reducing body fat levels. Life extension groups are also increasingly using prohormones as a means of hormone replacement therapy, as an alternative to prescription drug use. Additionally there is a movement to use prohormones of androgens to help offset the damaging effects of environmental estrogens on the body. Chemical endocrine disruptor agents like bisphenol A are becoming recognized as having the ability to skew the androgen to estrogen ratio. This skewed ratio can have many adverse effects on men, including sexual performance, impotence and other testosterone dependent body functions.
The use of prohormones has become popular among bodybuilders, since the effects can be similar (though normally much less drastic) to those achieved through the use of synthetic anabolic steroids, including gains in muscular strength and hypertrophy. There are currently many companies manufacturing prohormone products for this purpose.
Prohormones have the same side effects as anabolic steroids, and are dependent upon the user as to which side effects one might experience. Some side effects are acne, hair loss, breast tissue enlargement, and prostate swelling however these are specific to each type of prohormone and reports of side effects are usually minimal.
In the last two decades, pro hormones have also been used by bodybuilders, athletes, and nonmedical users of anabolic steroids and other hormones to refer to substances that are expected to convert to active hormones in the body. The intent is to provide the benefits of taking an anabolic steroid without the legal risks, and to achieve the hoped-for benefits or advantages without use of anabolic steroids themselves. Many of these compounds are legal to manufacture, sell, possess and ingest eliminating the legal problems associated with schedule III anabolic steroids. The typical definition of "prohormone" includes a steroidal molecule that has the opposite molecular structure to testosterone on either the 3a/b position or the 17b position. Testosterone has a ketone group on the 3 carbon and a hydroxyl on the 17b carbon. A steroid with modifications away from testosterone in one or both of these areas is commonly referred to as a "prohormone". These enzymatic changes occur with the body's bidirectional enzymes.[2][3]
A typical prohormone is intended to be a precursor of an anabolic steroid like testosterone, which is taken in order to boost the body’s available hormone supply. These precursors are intended to be converted to full, active hormones via an enzymatic process that occurs during metabolism, typically resulting in the addition of whichever atoms happen to be missing from the chemical structure of the compound.
Prohormones are used mainly by athletes looking to increase size, strength, endurance, reduce recovery time or add lean body mass. They are most often used for increasing muscle mass or reducing body fat levels. Life extension groups are also increasingly using prohormones as a means of hormone replacement therapy, as an alternative to prescription drug use. Additionally there is a movement to use prohormones of androgens to help offset the damaging effects of environmental estrogens on the body. Chemical endocrine disruptor agents like bisphenol A are becoming recognized as having the ability to skew the androgen to estrogen ratio. This skewed ratio can have many adverse effects on men, including sexual performance, impotence and other testosterone dependent body functions.
The use of prohormones has become popular among bodybuilders, since the effects can be similar (though normally much less drastic) to those achieved through the use of synthetic anabolic steroids, including gains in muscular strength and hypertrophy. There are currently many companies manufacturing prohormone products for this purpose.
Prohormones have the same side effects as anabolic steroids, and are dependent upon the user as to which side effects one might experience. Some side effects are acne, hair loss, breast tissue enlargement, and prostate swelling however these are specific to each type of prohormone and reports of side effects are usually minimal.
Thatguy0101
New member
It's a steroid, defo not a pro hormone. Marketed as a PH to sell it in stores.
Ephedraboy
Banned
Ok , that's better then , PH are worse then steroids for the liver
Thatguy0101
New member
Epi is mild on the liver, but still gotta take care. By the way it's a steroid as once it enters the body it's active. PH's from what I gather have to convert to something in the body first before being active.
stann123
Active member
I think no conversion takes place but it still toxic on the liver
Ephedraboy
Banned
Yes it's still dangerous ofc , if i take AR1MACARE PRO only , with Epi 30/45/45/45/45/45 , is it enough ? 3 caps/day , that product : Invalid Link Removed
mtinsideout
Well-known member
That product is meant to be part of the PCT and no it will not be enough of a PCT with that dose of epi, you will need a SERM.
Ephedraboy
Banned
It's a on cycle product , that one will be my post Invalid Link Removed , and yea i have nolva already , i will do 20/20/10/10.
Just want to know if the AR1MACARE PRO will be enough to protect my liver / BP / kidneys
mtinsideout
Well-known member
They both have arimistane in them?? I didn't realize this but ok I guess, Ar1macare product should be good for liver support. You can always throw in milk thistle or NAC as well.
mtinsideout
Well-known member
I should mention that Epi will not help your anxiety, if anything it will get worse during PCT. I would advise against it but if you are going to do it at least do your research and know what to expect.
Ephedraboy
Banned
Yes i know that , well i hope it won't get worse , but it can happen.
If it happens during the PCT , do i have to add a supp to reduce the anxiety ? or should i just wait it to go away?
I'll get Hawthorn berry + Milk thistle + maybe omega 3 to add with epistane , then during the PCT , SUP3R PCT + NOLVA 20/20/10/10 + maybe a T booster like D-pol.
mtinsideout
Well-known member
Sounds pretty solid to me. I'm not sure what supp you could use to help with the anxiety though.
stann123
Active member
Id go with cycle assist. Also your joints will be dry from epi and the ai in ar1macare wont help.
Ephedraboy
Banned
Yes , that's what some people told me , too much AI will kill my joints , i bought MSM product and omega 3 for this , hopping it will be enough.
mtinsideout
Well-known member
That would from low estrogen, it would make more sense to use DHEA with your epi to prevent the estro from getting to low.
mtinsideout
Well-known member
Maybe someone can help me out here but I think I read somewhere that DHEA taken with EPI can also help reduce the chance of estro rebound after the cycle since the aromatase enzymes are being used to make estrogen instead of building up.
Ancalagon
Banned
Pretty sure the opposite is true, as many of the oral steroids are methylated and pro-hormones are usually (but not always) non-mehtyls that are converted in the body to their active metabolites.
stann123
Active member
The only reason im assuming youd want arimacare is because of the tudca. And you can buy that separate and get a much more efficient dosing. cycle assist + tudca
reps4jesus
Well-known member
Nah, this is not true. This is actually so wrong I just :facepalmed:
stann123
Active member
Mind = blown
00S4Boy
Active member
Ok since there is gross amounts of misinformation in this thread OP please ignore most of the posts and read this one from the rep of the company who brought Epistane to the market.
Epistane is 17a methyl epitiostanol. Both epistane and epitiostanol are antiestrogens they hinder the activity of estrogen in the body, they don't prevent estrogen creation like an AI or bind to estrogen receptors like a serm. Use of an aromatizeable substance like dhea or trestolone on cycle will help increase estrogen to combat the antiestrogenic effects of epistane.
Quick nomenclature break to make the rest easy. Ketone or one means a double bonded oxygen atom to the androgen, hydroxy or ol(short for alcohol) means a oxygen bonded to a hydrogen single bonded to the androgen. Di means two of them so dione or diol.
Epistane is an orally active steroid sometimes classified as a designer steroid because they were never used medically, prohormones are steroid precursors, be it a dione(diendione(xtren) precursor to dienolone, trendione(trenavar) precursor to trenbolone, Boldione(bold200) precursor to boldenone) or diol(halodrol(diol precursor to turinabol), Alpha1(diol precursor to m1t)) or in the case of steroids found in your body dhea derivitives which have 3b hydroxy functions and 17 ketone function.
Most active steroids will have a 3 ketone and a 17b hydroxy function except in cases like epistane which have a sulphur atom bonded to the 2 alpha and 3 alpha positions or phera which has a 2-3 double bond.
Toxicity doesn't matter for designer steroid or prohormone it is compound based, the only variance is 17 alpha methylated compounds increase toxicity because they increase oral bioavailability by preventing the liver from metabolizing the compound inert which causes the liver to work harder.
Lastly check out Celtic Laps Epi brought to you by the makers of IBE Epistane the original it's what you want.
Epistane is 17a methyl epitiostanol. Both epistane and epitiostanol are antiestrogens they hinder the activity of estrogen in the body, they don't prevent estrogen creation like an AI or bind to estrogen receptors like a serm. Use of an aromatizeable substance like dhea or trestolone on cycle will help increase estrogen to combat the antiestrogenic effects of epistane.
Quick nomenclature break to make the rest easy. Ketone or one means a double bonded oxygen atom to the androgen, hydroxy or ol(short for alcohol) means a oxygen bonded to a hydrogen single bonded to the androgen. Di means two of them so dione or diol.
Epistane is an orally active steroid sometimes classified as a designer steroid because they were never used medically, prohormones are steroid precursors, be it a dione(diendione(xtren) precursor to dienolone, trendione(trenavar) precursor to trenbolone, Boldione(bold200) precursor to boldenone) or diol(halodrol(diol precursor to turinabol), Alpha1(diol precursor to m1t)) or in the case of steroids found in your body dhea derivitives which have 3b hydroxy functions and 17 ketone function.
Most active steroids will have a 3 ketone and a 17b hydroxy function except in cases like epistane which have a sulphur atom bonded to the 2 alpha and 3 alpha positions or phera which has a 2-3 double bond.
Toxicity doesn't matter for designer steroid or prohormone it is compound based, the only variance is 17 alpha methylated compounds increase toxicity because they increase oral bioavailability by preventing the liver from metabolizing the compound inert which causes the liver to work harder.
Lastly check out Celtic Laps Epi brought to you by the makers of IBE Epistane the original it's what you want.
Ephedraboy
Banned
Thanks for that help , really appreciated.
I already bought Ep15tane from Olympus Labs , i bought the set Ep15tane+SuP3R PCT + ARM1CARE PRO , and nolva , thought it would be enough..but no.
Aegis etc , cost at least 30$ , + the shipping to europe , it's getting more expensive , i think i'll only take : 1-6 week EPistane + AR1MACARE PRO + MSM for joints , then in PCT Nolva 20/20/10/10 + Omega 3 + some DAA ( not 3-5 g , only 1-2 g) + erase pro at the 3rd week of PCT .
Maybe i'll get some hawthorn berry and milk thistle , but not TULCA or others . :s
mw1
Sponsor
If you are going to use Damage control a bottle will only last 15 days to dose it correctly. Cycle Assist is a much better choice for ingreds, dosages and extracts
jbryand101b
Banned
Ephedraboy
Banned
so what should i do with the A1MACARE PRO bottle?
Ephedraboy
Banned
I just bought cycle assist , it can be use for 60 Days , so it can be use also for my 2Nd cycle right ? ( if i do a 2nd one)
jbryand101b
Banned
Ephedraboy
Banned
So if i use that with EPi 30/30/45/45/45/45 , will i be ok ? i mean there is still risks , but i should be ok right ?
Then for PCT : nolva 20/20/10/10 + SUP3R PCT + maybe some DAA.
Is it possible that i get a oestro rebound after the PCT?
jbryand101b
Banned
Yes and yes.
Ephedraboy
Banned
What can i do for the oestro rebound? take Erase pro from week 9-13?
00S4Boy
Active member
Really prove me wrong.
Thatguy0101
New member
It turns to Pheraplex if the bottle is kept in storage for a long time is the theory. After a certain time just sitting in storage it converts itself to it.
Thatguy0101
New member
Don't trust over the counter stuff to control estro rebound. You want a pharmacutical grade AI like Aromasin.
EDIT: Or a SERM like Nolva or Clomid, but it's your body so you make the choice.
harbonah
Well-known member
Yes maybe, its not conclusive but likely that it takes place in high temps. Now here is the fun part it was shown in a study that epitiostanol "Unmethylated Epistane" converts to 2-androstenol "Unmethylated Phera" so the theory is sound that a metabolite of methyl would be its methyl counter part.
Swolljaboi
Active member
Most people get an arimistane product and start in week three of pct. The dosage is tapered down over 4 weeks to help prevent rebound. I and many other people have used this method successfully. It is 100% necessary to use a SERM in pct for weeks 1-4.
Ephedraboy
Banned
I bought the Olympus Labs EP15STANE 1 month ago , i keep it in my room , i'll use it in july , so is there a chance that it convert? or it take years?
Yes 1-6 week epi + Cycle assist , week 6-10 , nolva + sup3r PCT , that s what i'm gonna do.
So i should use a arimistane product during week 9-13 ? AR1MACARE PRO?
Yes 1-6 week epi + Cycle assist , week 6-10 , nolva + sup3r PCT , that s what i'm gonna do.
So i should use a arimistane product during week 9-13 ? AR1MACARE PRO?
Ephedraboy
Banned
ok perfect then. i'm ready for the cycle , waiting for july 
jbryand101b
Banned
There is no data showing methepitiostanol has anti estrogenic effects.
Diols and diones are also able to bind with an interact with the estrogen receptor.
So a few of the "pro hormones" listed are active compounds as well.
Pro hormone or another term, metabolites are possible from all compounds.
Some may take epi in hopes of having dmt metabolites aka conversion.
This by your definition, would make it a pro hormone.
00S4Boy
Active member
There is clinical data on epitiostanol, and there is thousands of user reports of dry results and sore joints and what reduces bloat and causes sore joints low e, or estrogen being inhibited.
So yes you are correct there is no clinical data, but it's pretty safe to say based on users to say it is antiestrogenic.
jbryand101b
Banned
There are other factors that cause this as well. I'm on my phone, but if you research, looking at pa's articles, you'll see.
stann123
Active member
I think recommended is 8
Thatguy0101
New member
Yeah, it's defo got anti-estrogen properties. I'm using it now and I'm really dried out on it. Plus my joints get sore.