Eca stack at empty stomach?

I don't take the internet too seriously.lol

And what you just described is where a lot of my frustration comes from. Talking to Mr 30% bf with no muscle worried about starvation mode lol
 
Bnatural said:
I have stories, and stories of stupidity, and to the point of someone saying "I added in some whey protein, but I'm not looking to get huge". Yes, those types of stories.
We need to start a thread about things like that, just to hear the stories, because it's amazing.
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Well, years ago there was an old minister who used to come in the gym with big red tractor muffs (to block out the music he hated). What impressed me was how he twirled up into a pretzel to do weighted oblique side bends on a seated hamstring curl machines (yes, his legs and bottom somehow on the seat, and upper body on the pads where your legs go, wtf). He wanted to give me swimming lessons when he heard I had issues with swimming...2 weeks later I found out he drowned in a lake.
 
Bnatural said:
exactly, and hopefully this comment isn't directed at me as I'm currently around 10-11% and that's off-season.
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No, not at you, at all lol.

Like I said I was never addressing you as much as thinking out loud.

You already loose tone on the internet, add in typing on a cell phone and you get really abbreviated thoughts.heh
 
nattydisaster said:
The thread started has not revisited AM since the day he started this thread. I think we scared him off
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I don't need to get the OP against me, but it goes with one of my previous posts.
If you don't give the answer someone wants to hear, they begin to drown you out.

So...
"Bro, will ephedra get me cut if I take it pre-cardio and then I drink some protein?"

My response after realizing a yes or no doesn't matter
"Ya bro, do your thing"
 
nattydisaster said:
The thread started has not revisited AM since the day he started this thread. I think we scared him off
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I think he popped eca on an empty stomach, and died from catabolism.lol

Jk of course
 
ax1 said:
Well, years ago there was an old minister who used to come in the gym with big red tractor muffs (to block out the music he hated). What impressed me was how he twirled up into a pretzel to do weighted oblique side bends on a seated hamstring curl machines (yes, his legs and bottom somehow on the seat, and upper body on the pads where your legs go, wtf). He wanted to give me swimming lessons when he heard I had issues with swimming...2 weeks later I found out he drowned in a lake.
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I forgot to tell the part where he used to walk around between sets and breath like he is having an asthma attack and he would tell people around the gym he is "oxygenating" himself for the next set.
 
ax1 said:
Well, years ago there was an old minister who used to come in the gym with big red tractor muffs (to block out the music he hated). What impressed me was how he twirled up into a pretzel to do weighted oblique side bends on a seated hamstring curl machines (yes, his legs and bottom somehow on the seat, and upper body on the pads where your legs go, wtf). He wanted to give me swimming lessons when he heard I had issues with swimming...2 weeks later I found out he drowned in a lake.
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Today I saw a guy using a seated side lateral machine with his head/neck. **** was comical.
 
Bnatural said:
thanks for playing? seriously? i'm ruled out here by your horrid studies.
study 1's abstract proves nothing and ppl on both sides of this argument know that. HOW was fat free mass maintained? How? this abstract gives very little detail as to how that effort was maintained.
study 2, has the same effect as it states nothing on how it maintained lean mass. They are OBESE patients, so show the facts.
study 3, and this study seems to only show that there is no difference between consuming ephedrine on an empty stomach doesn't show much if any better result. Which it should be noted that I did not indicate that this should be consumed with a decent meal in the morning. I contested with consuming this on an empty stomach.

SO, thanks for playing, have a good weekend. STOP POSTING CRAP!
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You know at this point there is no point in continuing further with you and I will plainly tell you why.

What got me upset and talking the way I did in the first place was your lack of ability to take someones knowledge at face value cause it undermines your own reasoning (completely unbacked by scientific studies as you have yet to even provide an inkling of truth to your argument just as no one else on that side has yet to produce anything either.... its just not there cause its not factual)

So I went out of my way to google for YOU cause you cant stand to take a second and double check for yourself before popping off and throwing out what insults and broscience comments others already inaccurately made regarding a different portion of the ephedrine topic (wasnt even regarding catabolism, if you read thoroughly enough you know this and also know that I enlightened him as well regarding the subject)....

Even with this proof you refuse to believe, you refuse to look truth in the face and say your wrong cause that proof isnt detailed enough. Its an Abstract on a published study bud. Its a summary of the entire thing. they dont make outlandish claims that arent substantiated through a thorough study looking into certain markers and making scientific resolutions regarding their findings which is then also stated in the final conclusion. Why would it be that it says one thing in the full study but then shortened and manipulated to look as though its something else??? Its a published study that took time and money and proves that very point stated in their Abstract... dont tell me not just one but 3 (and more not quoted) all did the same thing, coming to the same conclusion then misrepresenting their findings in their abstract to prove a point regarding an over the counter medication, not like its even big pharma trying to sell poison here...???? its just not happening....

Thats why I refuse to continue with you now. Your going to bark and holler and make bulleted remarks numbered and lettered to try and look official but it wont change the fact that when someone presented you with new knowledge, you denied it. When you asked for proof (in so many words calling it broscience) and it was given, you denied it again saying it was smoke and mirrors... Im am not going to be poked and prodded into multiple bouts back and forth to get no where with someone who refuses to admit their wrong or at least provide substantial evidence otherwise, on par with that already against your view point.

If you want the complete study, you go pay for it and tear it apart, in the mean time I am just sad that you are so hardened against learning anything new that you completely shut this info out coming from someone who has done extensive background research (yes on scientific articles and "broscience" ones alike) regarding the MOA of these compounds and their interactions with other parts of the body...

Like I said though Im done.... argue your fruitless argument with someone else.
 
So, this is your final argument in favor of your agreement with fasted cardio. That's fine.

So, as far as proof, you have none. Studies go back and forth on "proof" when it comes to different topics. Look at creatine, people claimed it created a ton of potential side effects and no one should take this supplement. Now, most people understand it has plenty of positive effects, but there are still people out there who think it is not a wise choice.

You won't prove your side to me, because it's your side and there's proof to my side of this debate.

chris aceto supports fasted cardio, alan aragon is against fasted cardio.
if people of high knowledge and years of research still are at opposition, this should say enough.
 
Bnatural said:
chris aceto supports fasted cardio, alan aragon is against fasted cardio.
if people of high knowledge and years of research still are at opposition, this should say enough.
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Lyle McDonald has a fasted cardio program that utilized yohimbine to target stubborn bodyfat in his "The Stubborn Bodyfat Solution" book.

Some people such as myself dont mind losing muscle mass to achieve a certain level of leanness, its a preference as well.
 
ax1 said:
Lyle McDonald has a fasted cardio program that utilized yohimbine to target stubborn bodyfat in his "The Stubborn Bodyfat Solution" book.

Some people such as myself don't mind losing muscle mass to achieve a certain level of leanness, its a preference as well.
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lyle also has articles written specifying that fat loss for leaner individuals would be a wise choice to help mobilize fat stores.
i've done fasted cardio, and it seemed to work when i did it, but as i reviewed my progress pictures, i could tell i was sacrificing a decent bit of muscle.
 
Bnatural said:
lyle also has articles written specifying that fat loss for leaner individuals would be a wise choice to help mobilize fat stores.
i've done fasted cardio, and it seemed to work when i did it, but as i reviewed my progress pictures, i could tell i was sacrificing a decent bit of muscle.
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Now...when you state you ran fasted cardio, are you speaking of first thing in the morning? Or 4 hours after a meal for example?
 
I have no evidence to back this up BUT in my own experience and that of others on here that I trust, fasted cardio with BCAAs is very good at muscle sparing and I do believe it helps burn fat as well. I never took yohimbine in a higher dose before it to test if that helps more of not but I did use caffeine and 1,3 dimethyl as stimulants pre-cardio. I equate the lack of muscle loss to my strength not dropping off at all during that time but some supplements could have been the cause of that as opposed to the addition of the BCAAs.
 
Bnatural said:
same with how most have been discussing it in this thread. first thing in the a.m.
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3G Leucine + 20G carbs, or 10G BCAAs for the average sized lifter should result in some definite protection of muscle mass when doing fasted cardio if you still want to give it a shot lol, for the bigger guys I would feel safer with like 20G BCAAs, which iirc is what Layne Norton's pre workout dose would be. That or it was 10 pre, 10 post, slammed not sipped.

Even people like Martin, master of Leangains, recommend BCAAs or intra CHO+BCAAs when training fasted and actually following the IF protocol you can still get in carbs prior to training. There's so many problems when debating fasted because semantics are a bitch
 
Bnatural said:
So, this is your final argument in favor of your agreement with fasted cardio. That's fine.

So, as far as proof, you have none. Studies go back and forth on "proof" when it comes to different topics. Look at creatine, people claimed it created a ton of potential side effects and no one should take this supplement. Now, most people understand it has plenty of positive effects, but there are still people out there who think it is not a wise choice.

You won't prove your side to me, because it's your side and there's proof to my side of this debate.

chris aceto supports fasted cardio, alan aragon is against fasted cardio.
if people of high knowledge and years of research still are at opposition, this should say enough.
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I think you are lost....

I argued in favor of eca stack to stop muscle catabolism. Not for fasted cardio to burn more fat overall.

Personally I adhere to the idea that if you burn fat stores in the morning through fasted cardio then your body will use carbs alternatively through the day. If you use glycogen stores working out then your body will run off fat most the day and it all evens out... There's plenty of great articles I've read regarding this and it makes complete sense...

Again has nothing to do with the fact that if you do prefer morning fasted cardio then taking eca will not only help burn more fat but also preserve muscle....

I don't think you can find a single guru out there that would disagree with that fact nor any study showing its catabolic.

Please reread my posts, I don't know that you realize the points even being argued now by myself....
 
Sourdough said:
I think you are lost....

I argued in favor of eca stack to stop muscle catabolism. Not for fasted cardio to burn more fat overall.

Personally I adhere to the idea that if you burn fat stores in the morning through fasted cardio then your body will use carbs alternatively through the day. If you use glycogen stores working out then your body will run off fat most the day and it all evens out... There's plenty of great articles I've read regarding this and it makes complete sense...

Again has nothing to do with the fact that if you do prefer morning fasted cardio then taking eca will not only help burn more fat but also preserve muscle....

I don't think you can find a single guru out there that would disagree with that fact nor any study showing its catabolic.

Please reread my posts, I don't know that you realize the points even being argued now by myself....
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i see what you are saying, i just don't see the addition of eca helping preserve muscle, it may help increase fat loss to a greater degree than without eca. I have seen studies showing that clen can preserve muscle during fasted cardio.

As far as the other posts regarding adding in BCAA's, I wouldn't really consider it fasted cardio if any bcaa's were added to the mix. It would be a wise choice to consume bcaa's prior to cardio though
 
Bnatural said:
i see what you are saying, i just don't see the addition of eca helping preserve muscle, it may help increase fat loss to a greater degree than without eca. I have seen studies showing that clen can preserve muscle during fasted cardio.

As far as the other posts regarding adding in BCAA's, I wouldn't really consider it fasted cardio if any bcaa's were added to the mix. It would be a wise choice to consume bcaa's prior to cardio though
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Ephedrine shows some mild anabolic action through Beta-adrenergic stimulation. Ephedrine hits the beta2 receptor, although not directly the way clen does.
14. Astrup A, Buemann B, Christensen NJ, Toubro S, et al. The effect of ephedrine/caffeine mixture on energy expenditure and body composition in obese women. Metabolism 1992 Jul;41(7):686-688.
 
ax1 said:
Ephedrine shows some mild anabolic action through Beta-adrenergic stimulation. Ephedrine hits the beta2 receptor, although not directly the way clen does.
14. Astrup A, Buemann B, Christensen NJ, Toubro S, et al. The effect of ephedrine/caffeine mixture on energy expenditure and body composition in obese women. Metabolism 1992 Jul;41(7):686-688.
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ok, so again, it will limit some muscle burning effects, but you will still be losing muscle, i guess it depends on the overall degree of muscle loss when ephedrine is used.
 
Bnatural said:
ok, so again, it will limit some muscle burning effects, but you will still be losing muscle, i guess it depends on the overall degree of muscle loss when ephedrine is used.
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We would have to find out to what extent ephedrine is anabolic before we come to conclusions, dont we? Maybe it will limit..maybe it will halt...

Certainly it also depends on other factors as well such as ones diet what you eat the night/day prior may contribute, genetics, type of training on fasted cardio (low to moderate intensity fasted may target fat better, especially on a keto diet) for examples.
 
Bnatural said:
i see what you are saying, i just don't see the addition of eca helping preserve muscle, it may help increase fat loss to a greater degree than without eca. I have seen studies showing that clen can preserve muscle during fasted cardio.

As far as the other posts regarding adding in BCAA's, I wouldn't really consider it fasted cardio if any bcaa's were added to the mix. It would be a wise choice to consume bcaa's prior to cardio though
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Well look back and read my posts and then you'll see studies showing eca stack will preserve muscle (much like clen) as well... Thats the sole point I was making.

I agree with the bcaa assessment you made.
 
Sourdough said:
Well look back and read my posts and then you'll see studies showing eca stack will preserve muscle (much like clen) as well... Thats the sole point I was making.

I agree with the bcaa assessment you made.
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i'll have to look again, as i said before, when threads blow up it makes it difficult to read through everything.
I'll look back through the studies.
 
fame126 said:
What about takn e/c with flashover n creatine mono? Good idea?
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what are the ingredients in flashover? any carbs?if carbs are present id suggest taking it at least 30min after dosing EC or no less then 2 hours before EC.

Also many will suggest that EC not be taken with crea mono based on the possiblity of it having a diuretic effect on your body and for optimal creatine use and kidney health considerably amounts of water need to be consumed to volumize your muscle cells and saturate it with more nutrients... kinda silly to take something that will do the opposite...

personally... I still took creatine when runnin my EC stack.... I was already sweating up a flood of water and drinkin TONS to replenish cause I work outside and was running it during the summer...

I would try to stagger dosing timing... it would depend on when you workout as well...
 
Sourdough said:
what are the ingredients in flashover? any carbs?if carbs are present id suggest taking it at least 30min after dosing EC or no less then 2 hours before EC.

Also many will suggest that EC not be taken with crea mono based on the possiblity of it having a diuretic effect on your body and for optimal creatine use and kidney health considerably amounts of water need to be consumed to volumize your muscle cells and saturate it with more nutrients... kinda silly to take something that will do the opposite...

personally... I still took creatine when runnin my EC stack.... I was already sweating up a flood of water and drinkin TONS to replenish cause I work outside and was running it during the summer...

I would try to stagger dosing timing... it would depend on when you workout as well...
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I was unaware of the creatine; I'll stop use immediately. Makes sense. Thanks.
 
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