Donald Trump running for president

Aleksandar37 said:
I'm waiting for the investigation to be complete because I get what you're saying, but how many people come through that hotel even if you only limit it to the big spenders. Right now the telephone game is in full effect there and people's memories are horrible for evidence, which has been shown repeatedly. If you just want to go on what we know and apply logic to it, he slept during the day and spent his nights being anti-social and playing video poker...those things don't point towards a happy, well-adjusted guy.
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I agree, EVERYONE seems to say he was a loner. but at the same time he had a 'girlfriend' and was seen on camera with a different woman before the shooting...they were supposed to be hunting for the other woman to see what she knows, but I haven't heard any more about her.

I would be curious about the relationship with the girlfriend-rather it was sexual or platonic...did he seek out this other woman for sex or for some other reason? this could be very important, if it wasn't sex he was interested in.....
 
Jiigzz said:
I also live the paranoia of china invading by foot. Wars now will not be win by overrunning territory. They will be done by shelling mainlands until govts submit.

Your own military has a history of failing to overpower small nations through land invasions, so why would a nation try and overpower a large nation? It makes no sense.

The gulf wars
Vietnam
Korea

Etc

Are all wars, despite an advances military, that you havent won through land invasions
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Thats was just a point about China...I also said you dont know what the future holds for us, we just dont. Civil unrest anyone such as Koreatown during LA Riots? What if it was a group of Maoists from the country side and they decided to unit with Maoists from other southeaster nations and buy themselves a nice little island with bullets?

You also continue to unify the people with Government policies, policies I keep calling out over and over and over and over again and as one of the reasons we the American people need to be strong against this out of control war mongering government, so that doesnt fit in with my debate at all when Im complaining about the same thing, but you continually think these are the people that care about us and should regulate our guns which makes no logical strategic sense why you would want terrorists disarming us.
 
Jiigzz said:
How exactly will a gun win you a war with nukes?
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You dont know they will use that, I dont think they will be blanketing this huge country with nukes nor do I believe our service members will all play along with that, I think they would jump ship and take our sides. In a civil war our troops will not attack us, we have the advantage.

Ill take guns and grenade launchers over NZ tree branches and wrist fulls of nice warm sand which have many more of the incredible benefits of having a armed society that some of us discuss about here.
 
ax1 said:
You dont know they will use that, I dont think they will be blanketing this huge country with nukes nor do I believe our service members will all play along with that, I think they would jump ship and take our sides. In a civil war our troops will not attack us, we have the advantage.

Ill take guns and grenade launchers over NZ tree branches and wrist fulls of nice warm sand which have many more of the incredible benefits of having a armed society that some of us discuss about here.
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At least I don't have to make up fake civil wars and rely on alternate facts to back up my points ;)
 
Jiigzz said:
At least I don't have to make up fake civil wars and rely on alternate facts to back up my points ;)
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What the hell is "alternate" ROFL! Anything against your train of thought is either "ALT" or extreme, geez your not the center of the universe :)
 
Jiigzz said:
Your own military has a history of failing to overpower small nations through land invasions, so why would a nation try and overpower a large nation? It makes no sense.

The gulf wars
Vietnam
Korea

Etc

Are all wars, despite an advances military, that you havent won through land invasions
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I dont think you get it, those wars weren't started to win them including the 69 wars we are currently involved in overseas. Korea maybe I can see but thats it, but that was a war that involved a nation of a billion people.
 
Jiigzz said:
I also live the paranoia of china invading by foot. Wars now will not be win by overrunning territory. They will be done by shelling mainlands until govts submit.

Your own military has a history of failing to overpower small nations through land invasions, so why would a nation try and overpower a large nation? It makes no sense.

Persian Gulf war was to free Kuwait from Iraqi Control(complete)
Iraq War was to remove Saddam from Power and install a new regime(complete)
Vietnam was a Police Action (not a war)
Korea was a police action assisting a smaller government from being overrun (South Korea and North Korea seperation still exist) mission complete

Etc

Are all wars, despite an advances military, that you havent won through land invasions
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Fixed this for you just so you know the truth and quit making things up
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Since you're the highest qualified in this thread to talk about this issue, I'm curious why you believe Vietnam and Korea were police actions and not Persian Gulf or Iraq.
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In Vietnam and Korea we went in to assist another government with their civil wars for our own personal benefit of stopping the spread of Communism, and we got involved when they start killing American Constituents so we had no choice but to go in with military force. They where killing/capturing American Civilians.
The Persian Gulf we went in to stop Saddam from taking over all the oil, which would have crippled the economy, and Kuwait is a peaceful nation with a small Army not powerful enough to take care of itself during an invasion(kinda like the world wars) more powerful nation taking over an American interest(oil). The Iraq war, Saddam was still threating America and stated he was going to attack America, and was building his Army larger than regulations against Iraq during the Persian Gulf war allowed under NATO. They where only suppost to build an Army big enough to protect their own country since they used a massive Army to invade a smaller nation. They rebuilt their Army to massive attacking numbers again so we had to remove Saddam and instill a government that would apply the laws given to them under the NATO Pact to limit the size of their military. Unfortunately now their military is still to small to protect their own interest hence ISIS, but as we build them and train them they are now taking back cities against ISIS without Americans
 
DemntedCowboy said:
In Vietnam and Korea we went in to assist another government with their civil wars for our own personal benefit of stopping the spread of Communism, and we got involved when they start killing American Constituents so we had no choice but to go in with military force. They where killing/capturing American Civilians.
The Persian Gulf we went in to stop Saddam from taking over all the oil, which would have crippled the economy, and Kuwait is a peaceful nation with a small Army not powerful enough to take care of itself during an invasion(kinda like the world wars) more powerful nation taking over an American interest(oil). The Iraq war, Saddam was still threating America and stated he was going to attack America, and was building his Army larger than regulations against Iraq during the Persian Gulf war allowed under NATO. They where only suppost to build an Army big enough to protect their own country since they used a massive Army to invade a smaller nation. They rebuilt their Army to massive attacking numbers again so we had to remove Saddam and instill a government that would apply the laws given to them under the NATO Pact to limit the size of their military. Unfortunately now their military is still to small to protect their own interest hence ISIS, but as we build them and train them they are now taking back cities against ISIS without Americans
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Thank you for that!
 
DemntedCowboy said:
In Vietnam and Korea we went in to assist another government with their civil wars for our own personal benefit of stopping the spread of Communism, and we got involved when they start killing American Constituents so we had no choice but to go in with military force. They where killing/capturing American Civilians.
The Persian Gulf we went in to stop Saddam from taking over all the oil, which would have crippled the economy, and Kuwait is a peaceful nation with a small Army not powerful enough to take care of itself during an invasion(kinda like the world wars) more powerful nation taking over an American interest(oil). The Iraq war, Saddam was still threating America and stated he was going to attack America, and was building his Army larger than regulations against Iraq during the Persian Gulf war allowed under NATO. They where only suppost to build an Army big enough to protect their own country since they used a massive Army to invade a smaller nation. They rebuilt their Army to massive attacking numbers again so we had to remove Saddam and instill a government that would apply the laws given to them under the NATO Pact to limit the size of their military. Unfortunately now their military is still to small to protect their own interest hence ISIS, but as we build them and train them they are now taking back cities against ISIS without Americans
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I know I’m the “conspiracy” guy here lol but w/ Vietnam for example the government officially faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify the invasion. So technically we really didn’t “have” to go in. We were politically made to go in by Prez Johnson by something that never happened.
That was unclassified in the early 2,000s I believe. What do you think about that? Just respectfully asking your honest opinion because that is a big one that even the government admits to now.
 
ax1 said:
I know I’m the “conspiracy” guy here lol but w/ Vietnam for example the government officially faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify the invasion. So technically we really didn’t “have” to go in. We were made to go in by Prez Johnson by something that never happened.
That was unclassified in the early 2,000s I believe. What do you think about that? Just respectfully asking your honest opinion because that is a big one that even the government admits to now.
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what is scary is that both china and Russia[the soviet union] were involved in nam, that is an alliance that we should all be afraid of...add in n.korea and iran and things start to look really gloomy, lol....when people say nam was to prevent the spread of communism, maybe it would be more accurate to say it was to prevent the soviet union from expanding in influence....the soviet union was the boogie man in those days, the Cuban missile crisis was still fresh in many peoples minds.
 
ax1 said:
I know I’m the “conspiracy” guy here lol but w/ Vietnam for example the government officially faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify the invasion. So technically we really didn’t “have” to go in. We were politically made to go in by Prez Johnson by something that never happened.
That was unclassified in the early 2,000s I believe. What do you think about that? Just respectfully asking your honest opinion because that is a big one that even the government admits to now.
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It had nothing to do with the Gulf of Tonkin. We had military officers, who where "advisors" to the south Vietnamese that went out without weapons to watch the South Vietnamese fight the North. The North then startes using the North Liberation Party (Viet Cong) to capture these advisors after a South Vietnamese Unit was Overrun. These men will never be identified and always marked as MIA, they have only recently found dead body's of some of these men buried in Vietnam, and even found one living in Vietnam with a family and only knew Vietnamese. He couldnt even speak English anymore. But these men wherent listed because they werent POW's. We werent using military force yet, and I have friends who where there that will tell you they found "advisors" who where brainwashed so badly they were eliminated with the rest of the enemy. I once spoke to an SF soldier who was on a O.P. who had a satchel charge come into his bunker, 20 mins later he and one of his battles woke up, the third one dead. They heard in clear English no accent "You Guys OK", when they said yes a second satchel flew in. He woke up the only guy alive. He crawled out slowly and found an "American" wearing an enemy uniform gaurding the OP he announced himself and the guy drew a weapon so he shot the guy and crawled 3 days back to base. One of the greatest men I ever met. And his son aint to bad either serving on my side in Afghanistan. He was the one who took 3rd degree burns to pull me out a burning Humvee so the medic could save my life
 
DemntedCowboy said:
It had nothing to do with the Gulf of Tonkin. We had military officers, who where "advisors" to the south Vietnamese that went out without weapons to watch the South Vietnamese fight the North. The North then startes using the North Liberation Party (Viet Cong) to capture these advisors after a South Vietnamese Unit was Overrun. These men will never be identified and always marked as MIA, they have only recently found dead body's of some of these men buried in Vietnam, and even found one living in Vietnam with a family and only knew Vietnamese. He couldnt even speak English anymore. But these men wherent listed because they werent POW's. We werent using military force yet, and I have friends who where there that will tell you they found "advisors" who where brainwashed so badly they were eliminated with the rest of the enemy. I once spoke to an SF soldier who was on a O.P. who had a satchel charge come into his bunker, 20 mins later he and one of his battles woke up, the third one dead. They heard in clear English no accent "You Guys OK", when they said yes a second satchel flew in. He woke up the only guy alive. He crawled out slowly and found an "American" wearing an enemy uniform gaurding the OP he announced himself and the guy drew a weapon so he shot the guy and crawled 3 days back to base. One of the greatest men I ever met. And his son aint to bad either serving on my side in Afghanistan. He was the one who took 3rd degree burns to pull me out a burning Humvee so the medic could save my life
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VIETNAM WAS SOME NASTY SHYT!!!!!!!

on November 23rd you have a long list of things[people]to be grateful to[for]...I am grateful to guys like you who put it on the line for our country!!!

GOD BLESS AMERICA
 
thebigt said:
VIETNAM WAS SOME NASTY SHYT!!!!!!!

on November 23rd you have a long list of things[people]to be grateful to[for]...I am grateful to guys like you who put it on the line for our country!!!

GOD BLESS AMERICA
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I honestly hate certain holiday's...Don't take it wrong but I tend to put on the KIA bracelets of my soldiers, get really piss ass drunk, and make my whole family mad at me. But the rest of the year Im good. Specially like Memorial day, cause I told an 18 yr old kid to stay on a vehicle cause it was the safest place for him, and he just got married before we left....They blew up the vehicle injured me and killed him. I take that one especially hard because he was so young, and my first soldier killed after becoming an NCO
 
DemntedCowboy said:
I honestly hate certain holiday's...Don't take it wrong but I tend to put on the KIA bracelets of my soldiers, get really piss ass drunk, and make my whole family mad at me. But the rest of the year Im good. Specially like Memorial day, cause I told an 18 yr old kid to stay on a vehicle cause it was the safest place for him, and he just got married before we left....They blew up the vehicle injured me and killed him. I take that one especially hard because he was so young, and my first soldier killed after becoming an NCO
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Damn sorry to hear that, thanks for being so open about your personal experiences, be sure you know they mean something to people that hear them!!

Please excuse if my anti-war non-interventionist rants ever offend you or anyone it’s never my intent. I just hate most politicians and policy makers and see political affairs differently (much like Ron Paul, the founding fathers even) I love my military and country!!
 
ax1 said:
Damn sorry to hear that, thanks for being so open about your personal experiences, be sure you know they mean something to people that hear them!!

Please excuse if my anti-war non-interventionist rants ever offend you or anyone it’s never my intent. I just hate most politicians and policy makers and see political affairs differently (much like Ron Paul, the founding fathers even) I love my military and country!!
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It doesn't offend me, it never will. I openly gave up my rights, and wrote a blank check for up to the price of my life to the United States of America. So that all people can have the rights that belong to them, to include speaking their own opnion. So don't ever think you offend me for that. If thats how you feel, be proud to say it because you have that right. And I'm proud to say I protected that right for all Americans. I may not always agree, with some of it, and that goes for all people's opinions, but thats why I put my 2 cents in.
 
DemntedCowboy said:
It doesn't offend me, it never will. I openly gave up my rights, and wrote a blank check for up to the price of my life to the United States of America. So that all people can have the rights that belong to them, to include speaking their own opnion. So don't ever think you offend me for that. If thats how you feel, be proud to say it because you have that right. And I'm proud to say I protected that right for all Americans. I may not always agree, with some of it, and that goes for all people's opinions, but thats why I put my 2 cents in.
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I thank you and every service member since the founding of our military in 1775 for giving me the incredible platform I have to express myself and also contribute for a better future in the worlds longest running democracy!

Ive been in China on vacation the past several weeks... Im not about to bash China, there are great times here and I always love my time here but believe me all, politically America is a far greater and special place to be, I know that first hand! If people pulled off that crap they are pulling off there over here they will get crushed. I mean CRUSHED! Damn I miss home, will be back soon!
 
Invalid Link Removed

Buddy sent this to me today. Thought it was hilarious so I figured I share with all you anti-guns on here.
 
DemntedCowboy said:
Invalid Link Removed

Buddy sent this to me today. Thought it was hilarious so I figured I share with all you anti-guns on here.
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lol...good one.

isn't there a winter olympics sport where you ski to targets and then shoot? I don't think there is any killing involved but I might be wrong, lol...that josh guy is an idiot!!!
 
thebigt said:
lol...good one.

isn't there a winter olympics sport where you ski to targets and then shoot? I don't think there is any killing involved but I might be wrong, lol...that josh guy is an idiot!!!
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Yeah, I forget what is called. But that is an Olympic Sport, and their is no killing involved.
 
ax1 said:
I thank you and every service member since the founding of our military in 1775 for giving me the incredible platform I have to express myself and also contribute for a better future in the worlds longest running democracy!

Ive been in China on vacation the past several weeks... Im not about to bash China, there are great times here and I always love my time here but believe me all, politically America is a far greater and special place to be, I know that first hand! If people pulled off that crap they are pulling off there over here they will get crushed. I mean CRUSHED! Damn I miss home, will be back soon!
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Thank god you have your guns so your country doesn't become communist

I remember when Australia restricted guns and now look; communists. Took all of 5 minutes before the govt started oppressing them.

#gunskillcommunism

Let's get it trending
 
Jiigzz said:
Thank god you have your guns so your country doesn't become communist

I remember when Australia restricted guns and now look; communists. Took all of 5 minutes before the govt started oppressing them.

#gunskillcommunism

Let's get it trending
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Australia is a primarily a weak and irrelevant country on a global scale with barely any people living on it. Our NY NRA and NYSRPA members alone with a hand tied behind their backs can take their military out even with our current oppressive heavy gun restrictions. ROFL!
 
ax1 said:
Australia is a primarily a weak and irrelevant country on a global scale with barely any people living on it. Our NY NRA and NYSRPA members alone with a hand tied behind their backs can take their military out even with our current oppressive heavy gun restrictions. ROFL!
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Weak and irrelevant that is still more free and safe than the US.

If your only fall back is "the US is stronger than any country you can name", then that is a pretty crap argument lol. It's the same argument school kids use on the playground, "my brother can smash your brother", LOL

Australia needn't worry - the US people would fight themselves more than they'd fight anyone else LOL
 
Jiigzz said:
Weak and irrelevant that is still more free and safe than the US.

If your only fall back is "the US is stronger than any country you can name", then that is a pretty crap argument lol.

Australia needn't worry - the US people would fight themselves more than they'd fight anyone else LOL
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Safe from what and for how much longer? How do Australians always know they will have a decent government?

You cant compare Aus. to the USA. Barely anybody lives there, 23mil vs.300mil.

We have had out of control unchecked borders for decades (Aus borders with Sharks and populations other fish and sea fungus,) a war mongering genocidal government that has alot of people wanting to kill us in revenge by the masses, war on drugs with the US government importing the drugs and arming drug cartels, there are cultural differences and a whole lot more complicated issues.

geez, I love Australia, I wish them the best and hope they never get into foreign trouble and hope they always have a ok government,

But really cherry picking countries such as Australia's short term restrictive gun experiment and comparing it to the issues of the USA is just silly.

Why not Catalonia Spain? Their gun restrictions have made it a wonderful place to be right now.
 
ax1 said:
Safe from what and for how much longer? How do Australians always know they will have a decent government?

You cant compare Aus. to the USA. Barely anybody lives there, 23mil vs.300mil, we have had out of control unchecked borders for decades (Aus borders with Sharks and populations other fish,) a war mongering genocidal government that has alot of people wanting to kill us in revenge by the masses, war on drugs with the US government importing the drugs and arming drug cartels, there are cultural differences and a whole lot more complicated issues.

geez, I love Australia, I wish them the best and hope they never get into foreign trouble and hope they always have a ok government,

But really cherry picking countries such as Australia's short term restrictive gun experiment is just silly.

Why not Catalonia Spain? Their gun restrictions have made it a wonderful place to be right now.
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The paranoia is real, LOL.

Do you even know the situation in Catalonia? How exactly does that apply to the US?

All of your arguments are the exact same; "the US is different because we...." etc. yet none of what you say is actual evidence of something not working, you just apply the same fall back answer in every. single. situation. It's like your default mode for when you have no real argument
 
Jiigzz said:
The paranoia is real, LOL.

Do you even know the situation in Catalonia? How exactly does that apply to the US?

All of your arguments are the exact same; "the US is different because we...." etc. yet none of what you say is actual evidence of something not working, you just apply the same fall back answer in every. single. situation. It's like your default mode for when you have no real argument
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You were stating that Australia has it nice with their restrictive gun laws and communism hasnt taken over. You are cherry picking countries for your argument thats why I bought up and cherry picked Catalonia that wants independence and people are weak due to similar type gun restrictions and the people are suppressed of their freedoms. They have no chance without the barrel of a gun.

Ill tell you what, I dont really care what any other country does, I only need one USA. Its extremely safe here, nobody is getting shot it is almost impossible. We are the longest most powerful running democracy. I say this over and over again but your the paranoid one wanting the most murderous regime in the world take the power of the citizens away. When I walk out the door Im more concerned about falling into a uncovered man hole or a telephone snapping and falling on me than some stupid guns almost nobody here ever dies from, especially in places with the least restrictions.
 
Jiigzz...you ever been to a car show in the u.s?

do they even have car shows in Australia?
 
Jiigzz said:
Weak and irrelevant that is still more free and safe than the US.
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What does Australia have that compares to the Bill of Rights that makes it so "free?" I really double there is anything else in the world that could compare to the Constitutional laws of the USA and what our elected officials are sworn in to protect and follow.

Yeah, you acknowledge we have issues with freedom....which is accurate, we have an out of control growing corrupt government who consistently breach their oath of office... so there now you can understand the position I take and why I promote the peaceful restoration of our founding documents and refuse to promote disarmament. Thats why guns are there in the 2nd Amendment, we were warned about the natural deterioration of our rights which you are clearly aware we have some serious issues with.
 
ax1 said:
You were stating that Australia has it nice with their restrictive gun laws and communism hasnt taken over. You are cherry picking countries for your argument thats why I bought up and cherry picked Catalonia that wants independence and people are weak due to similar type gun restrictions and the people are suppressed of their freedoms. They have no chance without the barrel of a gun.

Ill tell you what, I dont really care what any other country does, I only need one USA. Its extremely safe here, nobody is getting shot it is almost impossible. We are the longest most powerful running democracy. I say this over and over again but your the paranoid one wanting the most murderous regime in the world take the power of the citizens away. When I walk out the door Im more concerned about falling into a uncovered man hole or a telephone snapping and falling on me than some stupid guns almost nobody here ever dies from, especially in places with the least restrictions.
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What? You need to research Catalonia and Spain and get back to me.

But here's the kicker, you dismiss Australia because it has a population of 25-26 million, yet use Spain as an example with a population of 50 million. So here's my defense; the exact same one you use: Spain has a population of 50 million, and so you cannot apply Spain to the US with a population of 300 million. So comparing Spain to the issues of the US is just silly.
 
Jiigzz said:
What? You need to research Catalonia and Spain and get back to me.

But here's the kicker, you dismiss Australia because it has a population of 25-26 million, yet use Spain as an example with a population of 50 million. So here's my defense; the exact same one you use: Spain has a population of 50 million, and so you cannot apply Spain to the US with a population of 300 million. So comparing Spain to the issues of the US is just silly.
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As Hitlery would say, what difference does it make!

All I want is 1 free for all country w/ a small government who's primary goal is national defense and protecting our individual liberties, just one out of billions and trillions of planets. Anyone is free to leave to safe nations. I just want 1.
 
On Catalonia:

Ensure such a local support that desire for independence is a landslide. This is not being the case, they cannot go beyond 50% and the support is faltering according to polls and local demonstrations (fewer in attendance). They acknowledged that they needed support from the majority of Spanish-speakers in Catalonia and tried hard to gather that support, with initiatives such as “Súmate” and putting Gabriel Rufián (a Spanish speaker) as one of the visible heads (“tokenization”) This has not worked: too many years of insulting Spanish-speaking locals, too much pressure on the use of Spanish language and the use of low-caliber people such as Rufián have not helped. Today Junqueras (the soon to be president of Catalonia) was adamant saying that Spanish language won’t have less rights in Catalonia. Low credibility. Too little, too late.
 
Jiigzz said:
What? You need to research Catalonia and Spain and get back to me.
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Im back from my Vacation, but the little I followed Catalonia voted for independence and their movement was crushed by Monarchy dictatorship and this society doesnt have guns and losing their revolution against a oppressive regime that will never validate their choice of vote and way of life.

What else is there to it, it doesnt sound complicated. What should I look for?
 
Jiigzz said:
On Catalonia:

Ensure such a local support that desire for independence is a landslide. This is not being the case, they cannot go beyond 50% and the support is faltering according to polls and local demonstrations (fewer in attendance). They acknowledged that they needed support from the majority of Spanish-speakers in Catalonia and tried hard to gather that support, with initiatives such as “Súmate” and putting Gabriel Rufián (a Spanish speaker) as one of the visible heads (“tokenization”) This has not worked: too many years of insulting Spanish-speaking locals, too much pressure on the use of Spanish language and the use of low-caliber people such as Rufián have not helped. Today Junqueras (the soon to be president of Catalonia) was adamant saying that Spanish language won’t have less rights in Catalonia. Low credibility. Too little, too late.
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As I know Spanish police have been intimidating and threatening voters, arresting and beating the crap out of voters, shutting down polling stations, stealing ballot boxes away, etc....so yeah I can see how crushing and oppressing democracy works to have decreasing public support, lol.

I mean I dunno what to believe here. Maybe the US can drop clusterbombs all over Spain and liberate them just like we have compassionately done so in Lybia not long ago and we can then run the polls. Wait, how much oil do they have?
 
ax1 said:
Im back from my Vacation, but the little I followed Catalonia voted for independence and their movement was crushed by Monarchy dictatorship and this society doesnt have guns and losing their revolution against a oppressive regime that will never validate their choice of vote and way of life.

What else is there to it, it doesnt sound complicated. What should I look for?
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What the heck does this have to do with guns????? Demonstrations with guns invoke a military response which would result in a lot of people being killed. They have done the right thing by trying to get a binding referendum, but the voting population for each referendum does not meet the minimum threshold for attendance vs votes for independence.

Don't be so dense to think that guns would change more than get people killed. You really are people hating to the point you'd rather see people dead than under any form of government.

Guess what? No states in the US can legally secede from the US. No matter how many guns you have. You'd rather just have violence thinking it solves the world, but guess what? Even in your free, gun filled US, you cannot legally secede. At least Spain put it to a referendum. It failed. If the majority wants to leave then that's another matter. But they don't.

Also guess what? The UK left the EU without guns. Wow, get that? Without guns. They had a binding referendum which had enough turn out and majority votes to make it binding (usually it needs to be majority i.e. >70% but they did it with just 51%).

Yep, really need guns to solve all problems :rolleyes:
 
ax1 said:
As I know Spanish police have been intimidating and threatening voters, arresting and beating the crap out of voters, shutting down polling stations, stealing ballot boxes away, etc....so yeah I can see how crushing and oppressing democracy works to have decreasing public support, lol.

I mean I dunno what to believe here. Maybe the US can drop clusterbombs all over Spain and liberate them just like we have compassionately done so in Lybia not long ago and we can then run the polls. Wait, how much oil do they have?
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Because it's a slippery slope. Say that Catalunya becomes an independent nation and part of the EU...
Euskadi (Basque Country) is next, they go ahead and do it
Galicia might thrash around and try it too

Oh, and this doesn't just stick to Spain...
Remember, Spanish Catalonia isn't everything! Catalogne Nord (Perpignan is the town which comes to mind) is French, and Catalan. Should that join too?
France would also see Pays basque français feeling like it wants to join the rest of an independent Euskadi
The United Kingdom sees thrashing from Northern Ireland, Wales (it's already got a Scotland referendum coming up)
Belgium probably dissolves into Flanders and Wallonia
I can keep going for a long time. Hell, just read List of active separatist movements in Europe to see how many of these things there are.

For all the reasons for or against, ultimately, true independence is likely to set off a chain reaction of admittedly unclear consequences.

There are many reasons related with different interests, but trying to be aseptic and going to the basis.

From a purely legal perspective, unilateral secession is illegal in Spain, is illegal in Catalonia and in general is illegal in international law other than because of certain causes, mainly related with human rights violation which it’s not the case.
From an ethical perspective I think the most legitimate reason is that it’s quite likely that (at least) about half of the population in Catalonia is against the independence so unilateral secession doesn’t seem fair for them.
 
Jiigzz said:
What the heck does this have to do with guns????? Demonstrations with guns invoke a military response which would result in a lot of people being killed. They have done the right thing by trying to get a binding referendum, but the voting population for each referendum does not meet the minimum threshold for attendance vs votes for independence.
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That would be up to them of course if they want to battle or not. Obviously historically people are up and willing to battle for decades to execute their vision of their future. If it wasnt for this I wouldnt have USA.

I dont want to see any war, ever of course but thats not up to me.

Im not sure of the system there in spain, who is setting these minimum thresholds and other rules, but beating up and intimidating voters, shutting down polling stations, stealing ballot boxes if all this is true its obvious the Spanish government is nothing but a pathetic ses-pool. If there was no minimum threshold to begin with there would not be any need for all the suppression and violence.
 
Jiigzz said:
Because it's a slippery slope. Say that Catalunya becomes an independent nation and part of the EU...
Euskadi (Basque Country) is next, they go ahead and do it
Galicia might thrash around and try it too

Oh, and this doesn't just stick to Spain...
Remember, Spanish Catalonia isn't everything! Catalogne Nord (Perpignan is the town which comes to mind) is French, and Catalan. Should that join too?
France would also see Pays basque français feeling like it wants to join the rest of an independent Euskadi
The United Kingdom sees thrashing from Northern Ireland, Wales (it's already got a Scotland referendum coming up)
Belgium probably dissolves into Flanders and Wallonia
I can keep going for a long time. Hell, just read List of active separatist movements in Europe to see how many of these things there are.

For all the reasons for or against, ultimately, true independence is likely to set off a chain reaction of admittedly unclear consequences.

There are many reasons related with different interests, but trying to be aseptic and going to the basis.

From a purely legal perspective, unilateral secession is illegal in Spain, is illegal in Catalonia and in general is illegal in international law other than because of certain causes, mainly related with human rights violation which it’s not the case.
From an ethical perspective I think the most legitimate reason is that it’s quite likely that (at least) about half of the population in Catalonia is against the independence so unilateral secession doesn’t seem fair for them.
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I dunno, thats up to the people of the land on what they do and how to deal with it. I couldnt give a rats ass if spain splits into 1,000 countries and the rest of Europe splits into a billion, honestly dont care. The more the merrier. I have no respect for any of those war mongering governments running the show anyways, Spanish monarchy is human filth and I hate the EU. I was just making a gun debate on how people have no chance when they cant stand their oppressive governments.
 
ax1 said:
I dunno, thats up to the people of the land on what they do and how to deal with it. I couldnt give a rats ass if spain splits into 1,000 countries and the rest of Europe splits into a billion, honestly dont care. The more the merrier. I have no respect for any of those war mongering governments running the show anyways, Spanish monarchy is human filth and I hate the EU. I was just making a gun debate on how people have no chance when they cant stand their oppressive governments.
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These are all the problems and effects of big corrupt central governments controlling the masses of populations. They have no respect for localities and many of them such as Spain are run by big government inhumane dog manure. Small governments catering for the needs of localities and having any bigger Fed. government keeping their primary role for defending peoples individual freedoms and national defense while keeping so small that its barely visible would be far better than the big government ses pool running all these countries as they are today. There is nothing wrong with having 3,000 mini states all over europe.
 
ax1 said:
I dunno, thats up to the people of the land on what they do and how to deal with it. I couldnt give a rats ass if spain splits into 1,000 countries and the rest of Europe, honestly dont care. I have no respect for any of those war mongering governments running the show anyways, Spanish monarchy is human filth and I hate the EU. I was just making a gun debate on how people have no chance when they cant stand their oppressive governments.
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Same here. I couldn't care less. But it has to benefit the people. If a country cuts ties, that could start a chain reaction for other, much smaller countries. The problem then is that the economy could collapse in all countries affected.

There is a lot to consider when a state secedes from its parent - and it can have far wider impact than what the general population could understand.
 
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