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Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?

hardasnails1973 said:
How come when taking DIM your pee smells fouls liek really strong. Is that a good sign something is coming out ?
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I have read DIM can cause harmless changes in urine colour, it does excrete estrogen(metobolites?? byproducts??) through the urine.
 
Dr. John said:
How long after you took it did you have the blood draw?
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I take my supplements mostly around 10AM and the small balance around 6PM.
DHEA,
in the morning 225mg + 100mg 7ketoDHEA
evening 125mg + 100mg 7ketoDHEA
Blood is drawn in the morning, fasting, 7:30AM
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My skin is clean and rather dry.
I can go few days without showering, get wet from perspiration and still would not get the "old goat" smell, as I used to have on moments notice.
I used to feel "manly" smell minutes after the shower if I was hot and perspiring.
Now I probably could go by without deodorant.

Dr. John said:
BTW, I'm not here to recommend any particular brand. Sorry.
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Noted, I appreciate your public service, thank you very much for spreading good science.
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I have settled (in my mind) that I am taking good quality supplements.
Now I am looking for other reasons to my slow response.

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DHEA supplementation
The Life Extension Buyers Club offers DHEA supplements that conform to the following specifications:

99.9% purity (European-derived DHEA)
Micronized (for maximum absorption and utilization)
Manufactured under GMP (Good Manufacturing Practice) conditions
 
Ran across this on an unrelated search on PubMed.

Possible support for Dr D's andogenicity claim...

1: J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9. Links
Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.

Mo Q,
Lu SF,
Simon NG.
Department of Biological Sciences, Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015, United States.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a multi-functional steroid that has been implicated in a broad range of biological effects in humans and rodents. Recent studies demonstrated that DHEA acts genomically through the androgen receptor (AR) in addition to its well-known effects on cell surface receptors. However, the relative contribution of DHEA and its major metabolites, including DHEA-Sulfate (DHEA-S), 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, 7-oxo-DHEA, androstenedione (Adione), and androstenediol (Adiol), in the production of genomic effects remains controversial, in part because the metabolism of DHEA varies in different cells and tissues. In the current study, the ability of DHEA and its metabolites to promote AR intracellular trafficking and regulate AR-mediated reporter gene expression, which are characteristic effects of androgens, was determined. Intracellular trafficking of AR-GFP protein was assessed in COS-7 cells while AR transcriptional activity was tested in CV-1 cells transiently co-transfected with AR expression plasmid and an MMTV-ARE-CAT reporter. The results demonstrated that DHEA, the 3beta-HSD metabolite Adione, and the 17beta-HSD metabolite Adiol, were androgenic. Each promoted AR-GFP intracellular trafficking, the formation of nuclear clusters, and AR-dependent transcriptional activity in a dose-dependent manner. In contrast, DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA were ineffective and exhibited minimal androgenic activity, even at relatively high concentrations (10(-6) M). These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.
PMID: 16524719 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
So Dr. John, unless I've missed it...when would be the best time to take an AI while on DHEA?...I have 6oxo and it's recommended to be taken with the last meal of the day but I will be taking my DHEA morning and noon.
 
Dr. John said:
... It means DHEA has SOME androgenic activity, as do several of its metabolites. Notice no comparison is made between the androgenicity of DHEA and, for instance, DHT.
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I'm telling you guys, DHEA is a stronger androgen qualitatively that DHT in some tissues (skin for instance). I've been doing this too long to ignore the truth, whether it adds up on paper or not.
 
Prgmmer i ran out of isocort and its been about 4 days despite being on testosterone libido was high and then it totally crashed. Could just 4 days off isocort have this effect and If I get an ACth stimulation test would being on isocort alter those results. Would i have to stop isocort for few days to get accurrate results? Plus my weight dropped about 6 lbs in 4 days all over varaible the same coudl lack of cortisol result in that so qucikly ?

Thanks
 
There can be to reasions for doing ACTH test one is to see if your Adrenals work or if you pituitary is the problem. This test you need to be off Isocort of Cortisol 2 weeks. The other reasion is to see if your getting enough HC or Isocort to help your Adrenals If one is on 20mgs of Cortisol and there ACTH is high not the stim. test then your not taking enough a lot of us the med is killed in the Stomach. So one needs to do both Cortisol morning blood test and ACTH. If your on Cortisol you need to come off it slow to give your Adrenals time to come back if they can. If your trying to stop and feeling sick you comming off it to fast or you can't. If you run out of Isocort get some HC cream 1 tsp 3 times a day on your skin with keep you from crashing.
Now I got this off the net for what this is worth.
And I am not a Dr. so take it from there.
Phil
hardasnails1973 said:
Prgmmer i ran out of isocort and its been about 4 days despite being on testosterone libido was high and then it totally crashed. Could just 4 days off isocort have this effect and If I get an ACth stimulation test would being on isocort alter those results. Would i have to stop isocort for few days to get accurrate results? Plus my weight dropped about 6 lbs in 4 days all over varaible the same coudl lack of cortisol result in that so qucikly ?

Thanks
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Well like you said I probably crashed rally hard. My joints are so sore I am like WTF.. So just get some isocort should help me feel better. That easy enough. I just called the health food store and they have a bottle so I am going over to get that. If a person is on testosterone and has adrenal fatigue. Having low cortisol levels with out the HC and high test is going to make you feel worse because they are antagonist right? just start back on normal dosage wher ei left off wheni get isocort ?
 
pmgamer18 said:
I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
Phil
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I find that their supplements are of high quality and reasonably priced as long as you are getting them at member prices. It is true, though, that they are more about selling supps than about life extension.
 
Dr. John said:
LEF interviewed me while in Vegas for a feature article. Sent a lovely, extremely knowledgeable and intelligent redhead to do it.
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So did you give her a Free Check Up.:toofunny:
Phil
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Well like you said I probably crashed rally hard. My joints are so sore I am like WTF.. So just get some isocort should help me feel better. That easy enough. I just called the health food store and they have a bottle so I am going over to get that. If a person is on testosterone and has adrenal fatigue. Having low cortisol levels with out the HC and high test is going to make you feel worse because they are antagonist right? just start back on normal dosage wher ei left off wheni get isocort ?
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No go back on it slow but faster then when you first started.
Phil
 
Dr. John said:
LEF interviewed me while in Vegas for a feature article. Sent a lovely, extremely knowledgeable and intelligent redhead to do it.
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Did you get any pictures of the redhead? I mean.....sure would like to hear about the article.
 
cpeil2 said:
I find that their supplements are of high quality and reasonably priced as long as you are getting them at member prices. It is true, though, that they are more about selling supps than about life extension.
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I am buiying 95% of my supplements from LEF at member prices. Sometimes they have additional sales.
I try not to hoard my supplements, buy maximum 4 even when 10 have a better price. They often revise formula following their lattest research. Those changes are discussed in their monthly magazine or on the web. Recently they changed some packaging, possibly change of supplier.
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Life Extension recommends that all members use this basic Top 10 listing as a guide to developing their own supplement program. Members have the exclusive benefit of speaking with a knowledgeable advisor at anytime via a toll-free phone line (1-800-226-2370) who will help develop a personalized supplement regimen to meet their individual health concerns.
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If LEF is listening, please improve on advisors.
 
JanSz said:
I am buiying 95% of my supplements from LEF at member prices. Sometimes they have additional sales.
I try not to hoard my supplements, buy maximum 4 even when 10 have a better price. They often revise formula following their lattest research. Those changes are discussed in their monthly magazine or on the web. Recently they changed some packaging, possibly change of supplier.
------------------------------------------------------
Invalid Link Removed
Life Extension recommends that all members use this basic Top 10 listing as a guide to developing their own supplement program. Members have the exclusive benefit of speaking with a knowledgeable advisor at anytime via a toll-free phone line (1-800-226-2370) who will help develop a personalized supplement regimen to meet their individual health concerns.
---------------------------------------------------------
If LEF is listening, please improve on advisors.
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They seem to have been hit with a run of high employee turnover. It used to be when I ordered over the phone that I talked with the same people from one transaction to the next, and they were pretty knowledgable--they knew the products and lab tests

Recently, the phone people are always different, and they tend to be poorly trained. When you order lab tests, there is a very high probability that they will get the order incorrect.
 
Dr. John said:
No. But that night, at Tao, the nightclub at the Venetian, (I was a guest of CBS Studios) this beautiful woman with long red hair, in a middie top, mini skirt and knee high boots came up to me and gave me a nice hug. She told me it was "nice to meet you today". I'm thinking, well, very nice to meet you too(!) but who the heck are you? She says "It's me, *********." Wow. What a change from the reporter who looked like a Librarian that afternoon!
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Now that will kick up one's libido.
Phil
 
cpeil2 said:
They seem to have been hit with a run of high employee turnover. It used to be when I ordered over the phone that I talked with the same people from one transaction to the next, and they were pretty knowledgable--they knew the products and lab tests

Recently, the phone people are always different, and they tend to be poorly trained. When you order lab tests, there is a very high probability that they will get the order incorrect.
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The phone operators are probably minimum wage people, there is a shortage of people who are actually willing to work so turnover may be higher now.

I always order supplements online, never had any problems.
Never ordered tests.

My experience was not as good when communicating with advisors. But then, I possibly ask too many questions.
The advice I got was good. I ended communicating by e-mail, eventually got good communication and advice.
I must say that he was not able to read pictures of scanned tests or excel tables I was trying to send him. Ended mailing it by snail mail.
Few months latter I checked, he was still there but when I send him new tests he stop responding.
 
DR.D said:
Oh yes, always with an AI concurrently! I'm not as concerned that it contributes significantly to estrogen biosynthesis as I am about it's ability to amplify the effects of pre-existing estrogen though a metabolite called 5-AD, so attenuating estrogen is the safest plan and appropriate at the time we are discussing anyway.
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EDITED BY DR CRISLER: CYCLE INFO REQUEST.

DR D IS DISCUSSING PATHWAYS, WHICH WE NEED TO HEAR ABOUT, NOT HOW TO DO STEROIDS.
 
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Phil or dr john if some one is taking cortisol (isocort) could there chance that it could be lowering ones DHEA level. I know that these needs to be checked me lab test, but i will get my insurance in 2 more weeks finally :) I was just thinking hypothetically speaking for now since they are antagonistic.
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Phil or dr john if some one is taking cortisol (isocort) could there chance that it could be lowering ones DHEA level. I know that these needs to be checked me lab test, but i will get my insurance in 2 more weeks finally :) I was just thinking hypothetically speaking for now since they are antagonistic.
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I have been on DHEA 25mgs 2 x's a day and my levels have been good at about 400. I was on Isocort it is said to have 2.5 mgs. of cortisol in each pill I was doing 8 pills. I got my Dr. to switch me to Cortef 5 mgs 4 x's a day. On my next blood test in 4 weeks my Testosterone and DHEA went way up DHEA went over the top of the range. I had to cut back down to 25mgs a day. We are not changing my TRT dose until we do a new blood test to be sure the labs were good.
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I have been on DHEA 25mgs 2 x's a day and my levels have been good at about 400. I was on Isocort it is said to have 2.5 mgs. of cortisol in each pill I was doing 8 pills. I got my Dr. to switch me to Cortef 5 mgs 4 x's a day. On my next blood test in 4 weeks my Testosterone and DHEA went way up DHEA went over the top of the range. I had to cut back down to 25mgs a day. We are not changing my TRT dose until we do a new blood test to be sure the labs were good.
Phil
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Thats interesting so this is basically saying isocort is very week compared to HC. So basically the isocort was not doing anything for you. Where your white blood cell counts also lower on the isocort as well ? i heard if you stay at 20 mgs HC you can use it long term with out side effects and that even normal people (non adrenal fatigue) can actuall get benefits as well from it. Study done 10 mgs was given to a person giving a speach vs palcebo and the person given the 10 mgs have less fear and anxiety ..mmm how interesting :)
 
pmgamer18 said:
I have been on DHEA 25mgs 2 x's a day and my levels have been good at about 400. I was on Isocort it is said to have 2.5 mgs. of cortisol in each pill I was doing 8 pills. I got my Dr. to switch me to Cortef 5 mgs 4 x's a day. On my next blood test in 4 weeks my Testosterone and DHEA went way up DHEA went over the top of the range. I had to cut back down to 25mgs a day. We are not changing my TRT dose until we do a new blood test to be sure the labs were good.
Phil
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Phil could it be possible that your estrogen domince/imbalance is putting added stress on your adrenals and that once you get your estrogen inbalance that your adrenals can heal eventually. Or do you think the adrenal caused the estrogen domiaince or may be you will just never know LOL. Also to intersting how i had low blood pressure all this time when not taking armidex with isocot, but when taking armidex with isocort it actuially normalized to 120/80. Estogen actually lowers blood pressure so too much estrogen can cause too low of blood pressure drop possibly?
 
I have been charting my temps for 11 months did Isocort 8 pills = 20 mgs. of Cortisol a day. My temps starting out were way down going from 96.6 to 97.8 up and down and low. When I added Isocort the swing narrowed down to with in .6 tenths of a deg. So I started on Armour and my temps went up for about 2 weeks then back down so I added 15mgs. this went on for about every 2 weeks adding armour. Still my Temps were swinging up and down more then .2 tenths so I got my Dr. to give me Cortef I feel Isocort helped but it has other hormones in it that were not helping. Now on 5mgs 4 x's a day of cortef my temps look dam good.
Phil
hardasnails1973 said:
Thats interesting so this is basically saying isocort is very week compared to HC. So basically the isocort was not doing anything for you. Where your white blood cell counts also lower on the isocort as well ? i heard if you stay at 20 mgs HC you can use it long term with out side effects and that even normal people (non adrenal fatigue) can actuall get benefits as well from it. Study done 10 mgs was given to a person giving a speach vs palcebo and the person given the 10 mgs have less fear and anxiety ..mmm how interesting :)
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hardasnails1973 said:
Phil could it be possible that your estrogen domince/imbalance is putting added stress on your adrenals and that once you get your estrogen inbalance that your adrenals can heal eventually. Or do you think the adrenal caused the estrogen domiaince or may be you will just never know LOL. Also to intersting how i had low blood pressure all this time when not taking armidex with isocot, but when taking armidex with isocort it actuially normalized to 120/80. Estogen actually lowers blood pressure so too much estrogen can cause too low of blood pressure drop possibly?
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I don't know I just put up a new post "Estradiol and Feeling Hot" I do know high E2 caused a lot of problems for me that went away after I got it down. I never could get a good reading on my BP every time someone takes it it goes way up it's call White Coat Fever. I take it my self and I am 130/78 on avg. Still I can take it and get 180/120 would sit for 30 min.'s and do it again and it's good. It's dam hard to keep all of the hormones in check adding Cortef everything went up on my T levels and DHEA so it looks like when you find the one that is off and fix it the rest follow and do better.
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I don't know I just put up a new post "Estradiol and Feeling Hot" I do know high E2 caused a lot of problems for me that went away after I got it down. I never could get a good reading on my BP every time someone takes it it goes way up it's call White Coat Fever. I take it my self and I am 130/78 on avg. Still I can take it and get 180/120 would sit for 30 min.'s and do it again and it's good. It's dam hard to keep all of the hormones in check adding Cortef everything went up on my T levels and DHEA so it looks like when you find the one that is off and fix it the rest follow and do better.
Phil
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Very true by treating the adrenal fatigue and estrogen imbalnace same time it all works together :)
 
If I don't supplement with 25mg/day of DHEA, wouldn't my natural DHEA come up on its own in a matter of time; since my LH is still firing at a good level??
 
is that because your on HCG which is stimulating it. Also too progrmmer your dhea began to rise in conjuction when your started the HCG which highly supports theory that hcg will increase DHEA and dhea levels will increase free testosterone and possible even lower estrogen :)
 
Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS) age-related withdrawal is very likely to be involved in the aging process and the onset of age-related diseases, giving rise to the question of whether preventing or compensating the decline of these steroids may have endocrine and clinical benefits. The aim of the present trial was to evaluate the endocrine, neuroendocrine and clinical consequences of a long-term (1 year), low-dose (25 mg/day) replacement therapy in a group of aging men who presented the clinical characteristics of partial androgen deficiency (PADAM). Circulating DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total testosterone and free testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, allopregnanolone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), cortisol, follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) levels were evaluated monthly to assess the endocrine effects of the therapy, while beta-endorphin values were used as a marker of the neuroendocrine effects. A Kupperman questionnaire was performed to evaluate the subjective symptoms before and after treatment. The results showed a great modification of the endocrine profile; with the exception of cortisol levels, which remained unchanged, DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, DHT, progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estrone, estradiol, GH, IGF-1 and beta-endorphin levels increased significantly with respect to baseline values, while FSH, LH and SHBG levels showed a significant decrease. The Kupperman score indicated a progressive improvement in mood, fatigue and joint pain. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that 25 mg/day of DHEA is able to cause significant changes in the hormonal profile and clinical symptoms and can counteract the age-related decline of endocrine and neuroendocrine functions. Restoring DHEA levels to young adult values seems to benefit the age-related decline in physiological functions but, however promising, placebo-controlled trials are required to confirm these preliminary results.

PMID: 15672938 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I guess the significant drop in LH and FSH means that 25mg/day of dhea over a long period of time is suppressive to HPTA.
 
Ultra Micronized - Micron 5 DHEA from McPherson Labs.

Anyone knows if that is any good? Just placed an order.
They say it has been used in clinical research as well and is slow release. Cheap as well- around 17-18$ (if that is considered cheap)

By the way, how long after starting dhea supplementation do ihave to worry about DHT rising levels and conversion of T to estrogens?

Im thinking of doing tests at 2-3 weeks time after starting- is that good enough?

Or is it a better choice to supplement with saw palmetto from the start ???? (since i have chronic prostatitis from finasteride)

What else to take to avoid liver and other problems while on dhea?
 
solonjk said:
Ultra Micronized - Micron 5 DHEA from McPherson Labs.

Anyone knows if that is any good? Just placed an order.
They say it has been used in clinical research as well and is slow release. Cheap as well- around 17-18$ (if that is considered cheap)

By the way, how long after starting dhea supplementation do ihave to worry about DHT rising levels and conversion of T to estrogens?

Im thinking of doing tests at 2-3 weeks time after starting- is that good enough?

Or is it a better choice to supplement with saw palmetto from the start ???? (since i have chronic prostatitis from finasteride)

What else to take to avoid liver and other problems while on dhea?
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From my understanding, they are currently the leading / only supplier available to the general public of pharmaceutical (laboratory) gread dhea. Also, from much reading the "Ultra Micronized" claim allows it to be bio-available whether taken oral or trans-dermal (the latter probably more beneficial).
 
Raiz3 said:
From my understanding, they are currently the leading / only supplier available to the general public of pharmaceutical (laboratory) gread dhea. Also, from much reading the "Ultra Micronized" claim allows it to be bio-available whether taken oral or trans-dermal (the latter probably more beneficial).
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your close to 5 years behind the times there buddy LOL...
 
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