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Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking and phrased my question wrong in that context. I did do a little more searching and found what I was looking for. I was meaning to ask about estrogen's positive effects on blood lipids, immune system, etc. Thank you for the reply so quickly.
 
So.... Just to re-confirm my conclusion; a dose of 25mg per day will in no way convert into estrogen, correct?

Also, another question. I understand that dhea is a precursor for testosterone production. Do the testes produce DHEA also in addition to the adrenal glands? If so, does dhea play any role in the feedback mechanism?... How??

Can DHEA levels come back slowly on their own after "successful" PCT without supplementation?
 
BigAk said:
So.... Just to re-confirm my conclusion; a dose of 25mg per day will in no way convert into estrogen, correct?

Also, another question. I understand that dhea is a precursor for testosterone production. Do the testes produce DHEA also in addition to the adrenal glands? If so, does dhea play any role in the feedback mechanism?... How??

Can DHEA levels come back slowly on their own after "successful" post cycle therapy without supplementation?
Click to expand...
I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
Phil
Click to expand...
What is HC Phil??
 
Dr. John said:
I wonder if some of the actions of DHEA are through estrogen receptors? Perhaps someone with time to do searches (hint, hint) can check that out.
Click to expand...

LEF
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.
Click to expand...

PDR Health
It has been proposed that DHEA be used (much as estrogen replacement therapy is used) in post-menopausal women to compensate for endogenous age-related and menopause-accelerated declines in DHEA. A dose of 50 milligrams daily has been suggested for this purpose, but there are no clinical trials demonstrating that this regimen would either be effective or safe long-term. It has been noted that DHEA can bring estrogen levels in postmenopausal women to levels equal to that observed in standard hormone-replacement therapy. This may prove risky inasmuch as it has been shown that taking estrogen without concomitant use of progesterone is an established risk factor for uterine cancer.
Click to expand...




some extra info

PubMed
DHEA MECHANISM OF ACTION: Potential mechanisms of action for DHEA
are extensive. The range of projected actions is so wide (brain,
cardiovascular and immune system effects, anti-cancer or carcinogenic
(depending on dose), anti-obesity, bone protective, etc.), it raises
the question of whether a single compound is responsible for all of
the actions. Ongoing studies suggest several mechanisms of action:
a) as a non-competitive inhibitor of glucose 6-phosphate
dehydrogenase (G6PD), the rate-limiting enzyme in the pentose
phosphate pathway which provides ribose 5-phosphate and NADPH, b) as
a "neurosteroid" through interactions with neuronal GABA and sigma
receptors, c) through regulation of enzyme activity or bioregulatory
factors and their receptors (e.g., enoyl CoA hydratase,
carbomylphosphate synthetase, malic enzyme, glycerol-3- phosphate
dehydrogenase, T cell IgD receptor, cytokines), or d) through
regulation of gene expression (e.g., various cytochrome P450s,
NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase, fatty acyl CoA oxidase). There are a
small number of reports in the literature of 'receptors' for DHEA,
but as yet no study has unequivocally identified these DHEA 'binding
proteins' as nuclear transcription factors.
Click to expand...

cut and paste into google for the exact source.
 
pmgamer18 said:
I had no problems with taking 25mgs. of DHEA 2x's a day E2 was the same test to test. I did add HC to help my Adrenals and my next test came back over the top of the range had to cut back to one time a day.
Phil
Click to expand...

Dhea or E2 was elevated?
 
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
 
BigAk said:
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
Click to expand...

You guys are nuts! I'm telling you this stuff has a major androgenic predominance! I can't take over 200mg/d without getting acne and growing body hair. It is not estrogenic at all. If anything, it's too androgenic. That's it main limiting factor. Try it and see what I mean. A week of dose experimentation will not kill you either way and is extremely unlikely to result in any sequelae. It will totally change your mind because you got the wrong idea about DHEA!
 
BigAk said:
DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain.

After all the research ItsHectic has presented, I am really reluctant to using DHEA as a supplement as I'm afraid that it may convert mostly to Estrogen rather than testosterone... even at 25mg per day.
Click to expand...

DR.D said:
You guys are nuts! I'm telling you this stuff has a major androgenic predominance! I can't take over 200mg/d without getting acne and growing body hair. It is not estrogenic at all. If anything, it's too androgenic. That's it main limiting factor. Try it and see what I mean. A week of dose experimentation will not kill you either way and is extremely unlikely to result in any sequelae. It will totally change your mind because you got the wrong idea about DHEA!
Click to expand...

April-2005 my DHEAs was 118 (280-640 µg/dL)
I am supplementing long time with
300mg DHEA
and
50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
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JanSz said:
April-2005 my DHEAs was 118 (280-640 µg/dL)
I am supplementing long time with
300mg DHEA
and
50mg DHEA plus 200mg 7ketoDHEA
My blood DHEAs went up only to 369
thinking of additional increase since LEF recomends (400-600)
I am probably missing on some other nutrients, what that may be?
I am 66yo, 5'9", 155#
I am taking (good quality DHEA from LEF), so hopefully quality is of no concern here.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

So what's the difference between 7ketoDHEA and the plain DHEA?? And why do we need to take both?
 
EDIT by Dr. Crisler: THAT question is out of bounds with respect to steroid use. Sorry.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. John said:
... I can also share with you that the top Thought Leaders in my field I have discussed this important topic with are in agreement with me.
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement with you too. I am suggesting that I must be an atypical responder due to differences in enzymes or something, because DHEA is a stronger androgen (qualitatively) than anything else I have ever used, as far as literal manifestations like acne, body hair growth, etc. you would associate with androgen and no estrogen sides at all. I would guess this paradoxical response may be more common than currently recognized unless it is truly just an idiosyncrasy. Look at the individual above that has been using 300mg and is still not even in range!
 
I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:

1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??

2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??

3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?

4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?

5)...... that's it for now... :)
 
Dr. John said:
...
The question which remains is proper dosing. In my extensive experience, I find that 25mg BID provides a healthy dose of DHEA, without substantial elevation of E. OTOH, I have used higher doses of DHEA successfully when E was too low.
...
Click to expand...

Is 7-Keto DHEA the same, or should this just be "plain" DHEA?

Thanks.
WF
 
I have an appointment with the venerable Dr. John tomorrow about it, so then I'll know for sure. I did some reading (Google knows everything), and it looks like 7-keto DHEA does not convert to T or E. It is a metabolite (converted from) of DHEA. Apparently DHEA gets converted to a whole mess of things in different places in the body, including T and E, but 7-keto DHEA does not get converted to either.

here are some links
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It seems like 7-keto has poorer oral bioavailability than regular DHEA..that and it is far more expensive.
 
BigAk said:
I realize that DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands as well as by the testes. My questions are:

1) what prompts the testes to produce DHEA?? Is there a negative feedback mechanism similar to testosterone production??

2) If the SERMs cause an increase in testosterone production via LH, do they also prompt the testes to produce more DHEA precursor??

3) If someone is trying to recover his HPTA and increase testosterone production via SERMs, is it futile to do so if the levels of DHEA are below normal?

4) If Total Estrogen is high in a patient with a below-normal DHEA and low-normal E2, isn't it counterproductive to supplement with DHEA (even at a low dose of 25mg) and risk wrecking HPTA recovery with elevating Total Estrogen to even higher levels?

5)...... that's it for now... :)
Click to expand...

Bump for answers....
 
The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.

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As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.
 
I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.
 
Are there any studies that show a correlation between the percentage body fat one has and the degree to which DHEA will end up being E2?
 
Werewolf said:
The statement the DHEA doesn't produce testosterone in the male body isn't really true. It really matter when you measure it. The amount of estrogen that DHEA produces will tend to push back on the HTPA axis. See the attached charts. Since it does indeed produce a testerone spike, there will be also be DHT spike too.

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As time goes along the extra estrogen in men is going to push on HTPA axis and balance the Testosterone back down. You could use an AI to lower the estrogen back down and reduce the push on HTPA axis.
Click to expand...

Source please? I'd like to see what other plots they have.

Thanks,
WF
 
wildfox said:
I had to wait until MSIE loaded the JPGs fully, then find the "expand" button at the bottom right to bring them to proper magnification.
Click to expand...

Depending on how you have MSIE (Microsoft Internet Explorer) set, you may have to place your cursor over the lower right part of the image until a little graphic pops up. The little graphic has arrows pointing outward in each corner. If you click that graphic, the image will expand and becomes clearer.
 
Dr. John said:
In my experience, 25mg BID is an effective and safe dose for most adult males.
Click to expand...

Dr. John
Do you have recommended blood levels of DHEA?
How to go about to achieve them?
What are the (most common) penalties of not having proper levels?
LEF recommended DHEA levels are:
--------- Normal --------Ideal
Men---- 280-640 ug/dL 500-640 ug/dL
Women --65-380 ug/dL 250-380 ug/dL
LEF dedicated separate protocol that discusses DHEA and 7ketoDHEA
DHEA Restoration Therapy
Invalid Link Removed
----------------------------------------
I am using about 15x of your recommended 25mg supplementation and am still below their recommended range.
Possible (common) reasons why this is happening?
------------------
Thank you for your time and expertise.
Happy New Year!!!
 
JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.

There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?
 
wildfox said:
JanSz: I'm not the doc, but if you're taking 375mg a day, you might be suppressing something. The body always wants to go back to homeostasis.

There's a saying "a little dab'll do ya". Perhaps you didn't need so much in the first place? Who recommended you take that much in one day?
Click to expand...
LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.
1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
quote:
"As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
---------------------------
With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
++++++++++++++
The terminal elimination half-life of dutasteride is approximately 5 weeks at steady state. The average steady-state serum dutasteride concentration was 40 ng/mL following 0.5 mg/day for 1 year. Following daily dosing, dutasteride serum concentrations achieve 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. Due to the long half-life of dutasteride, serum concentrations remain detectable (greater than 0.1 ng/mL) for up to 4 to 6 months after discontinuation of treatment.
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----------------------------
I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.
 
One recent study showed that doses under 30 mg were not enough to significantly raise blood levels of DHEA in young adults (Cameron DR et al 2005). At these levels, DHEA has shown no major side effects.
-------------
All individuals react differently to DHEA replacement therapy, so it's a good idea to closely monitor your blood levels and side effects. If side effects appear, it may be possible to add 7-Keto DHEA and reduce the dose of DHEA.

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I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
Phil
JanSz said:
LEF advisor is reviewing and recommending my supplements.
1-800-226-2370 (Membership required, I think)
In their DHEA restoration protocol they state:
quote:
"As part of a comprehensive approach to fighting the diseases of aging, Life Extension recommends that people monitor their blood levels of DHEA and strive to reproduce hormone levels of a healthy 21-year-old. Fortunately, DHEA is well tolerated as a supplement, with only minimal side effects even at relatively high doses."
---------------------------
With all this I am obviously open to all opinions.
At this moment I suspect that when people are reporting adverse results of taking rather minimal amounts of DHEA,
I am not doubting what they report, but there may be another than DHEA reason for their problems, or case of some unidentified interactions.
I have similar suspicion on Finasteride, when people stop using it and still have a problems after more than 2 months. It did not happen, at least in my case in regard to DHT. I do not have a personal experience of Finasteride causing low T way after it is not used any more.
----------------------------
I must say that over year ago LEF advisor recomended Armour Thyroid for me. I was not able to get script for it, that may change soon.
Click to expand...
 
Dr. John said:
Let me say it ONE MORE TIME. DHEA must convert to androstenedione before it can convert to testosterone. Just look at the pathways. Does anyone want to make the claim you can elevate T with androstenedione (for the Big Mac fans out there. lol)? Androstenedione is aromatized to estrone, as T is to estradiol. In fact, androstenedione is a more preferable substrate for aromatase than testosterone is. Hence the shunting to E. This is why you will boost estrogen, not testosterone, by taking very much DHEA.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that androstenedione converted to test at a very low rate (5.6%)? But isn't that much better than zero?
 
Sure androstenedione can be used to raise testosterone greatly, it is simply a matter of estrogen control with an anti-E. Same could be said for DHEA.
 
Werewolf said:
Sure androstenedione can be used to raise testosterone greatly, it is simply a matter of estrogen control with an anti-E. Same could be said for DHEA.
Click to expand...

So would using large doses of DHEA & an anti-e hurt the HPTA?
 
DR.D said:
Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.
Click to expand...
I had some impressive results (gyno :() with DHEA in a dermabolics carrier.

Would the oral bioavailability of DHEA be increased by such simple things as grapefruit extract and suchlikes?

Dr. John said:
Please refer to the previously posted abstract which demonstrates DHEA readily converts to estrogen. Other studies have shown similar results, so this simply is not in question. The pathways are very clear, in all endocrinology books. I think I have already discussed this pathway in this very thread.

Try taking 200mg QD of DHEA, in absence of any AI or SERM administration. You will indeed find grossly elevated estrogen as a result.

The question which remains is proper dosing. In my extensive experience, I find that 25mg BID provides a healthy dose of DHEA, without substantial elevation of E. OTOH, I have used higher doses of DHEA successfully when E was too low.

In fact, DHEA can be used to elevate E in adult males, but it conversely elevates T in females. Go figure.

I can also share with you that the top Thought Leaders in my field I have discussed this important topic with are in agreement with me.
Click to expand...
What is the enzyme responsible for conversion of DHEA to Testosterone? Would this enzyme have any oral bioavailability? :D

Also, provided an AI is already taken, will the oral DHEA be more likely to get turned into testosterone, or would that occur better with the transdermal?

Oh, and 600mg DHEA ED with some Arimidex makes me feel SOOOO GOOOD :)

Thanks
 
pmgamer18 said:
I am not knocking you for using LEF products but you do know they are about getting to you Buy Buy Buy and Buy again. I feel they have some good info but don't waste my money on there products. I have been down this road and flag for this is when your doing something they sell that does not work and they tell you it's because you need this. Like I said they are about selling there products and at a lot of money. You can find much better deals out there.
If I was to listen to them and buy all that they told me I would be on everything they sell.
Phil
Click to expand...
You are entitled to your opinion.
Ok; speaking about bi--ing about LEF.
If I had to bich, that would be more involved advisors assigned to particular "case"/member.
Mine got tired rather quickly.
However, advice that I got from my advisor, I was not able to get anywhere else.
-------------------------------
One of their gods is Dr. Shippen,
but that is only one or three protocols from the list of probably 30 (I did not actually counted them) that they provide.
--------------------------------
Whatever;
anti-aging is new field, and it is in my interest to keep open mind. Somebody, somewhere is working on better mouse trap.
.
 
Dr. John said:
Then they used a very poor quality product.

I can tell you that a single 25mg dose of a good DHEA will elevate a 24 hour urine about 6X normal range.
Click to expand...
Dr. John;
Please provide known good quality DHEA source that is openly available for purchase. I will buy it and eat 350mg of it daily, one month before my next blood test and report results.
.
Happy New Year;
 
Could a nice simple solution would be to get a blood test as a starting point then after result take 25 mgs BID of a good brand of DHEA restest a month later and if DHEA is still not adequete, but estrodial is slightly raises just to add 150 -300 mgs of DiM for an insurance policiy. then retest another month later. So with in 2 months you could have an constant reading were both DHEA and estrodial are in the healthy ranges. What are some reputable brand of dhea


Thanks prgmmer DIM with TMG works great for morning boners now so that defienitly tell me we have an estrogen problem going on and its never been the estrodial at all but the excess of conversion to estrone to bad estrogens. As indicated by the elevted xylene which was telling estrogen was culprit clogging it up. That probably why the armidex works so good but it was driving down my E2 as well as other ones (speculation)
 
BigAk said:
So what's the difference between 7ketoDHEA and the plain DHEA?? And why do we need to take both?
Click to expand...

7-keto DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA. It increases thyroid hormone T3. It cannot be measured by doing a DHEA-s lab. It absorbs much better than DHEA, and does not need to be taken with something fatty or oily in order to absorb well.

I currently use 25mg DHEA per day. I have used 7-keto DHEA before at 25mg per day. I found that it worked very well for blood sugar control, perhaps even better than regular DHEA. It did however make me feel more edgy as well as reduced my appetite significantly, probably because of the increase in T3 that it caused. Overall, I feel better taking 25mg of DHEA than 25mg of 7-keto DHEA.
 
Dr. John said:
Then they used a very poor quality product.

I can tell you that a single 25mg dose of a good DHEA will elevate a 24 hour urine about 6X normal range.
Click to expand...

JanSz said:
Dr. John;
Please provide known good quality DHEA source that is openly available for purchase. I will buy it and eat 350mg of it daily, one month before my next blood test and report results.
.
Happy New Year;
Click to expand...


Dr. John said:
Thank you for sacrificing your body to science. LOL.

BTW, I am not recommending you do this.
Click to expand...

I am already taking this amount of DHEA,
but you sugest that it is possibly of inferior quality.
So I would like to learn which product is of unquestionably good quality and us it. Nothing misterious or sacrificial about it.
..................
For example, Phil went thru number of DIM products until he learned that only Indolplex works for him.
 
JanSz said:
I am already taking this amount of DHEA,
but you sugest that it is possibly of inferior quality.
So I would like to learn which product is of unquestionably good quality and us it. Nothing misterious or sacrificial about it.
..................
For example, Phil went thru number of DIM products until he learned that only Indolplex works for him.
Click to expand...
I use this DHEA and it's made by the same people that make Indolplex/DIM. I have been on this for a long time. My Wife found a new Dr. and he found her DHEA to be below range and sold her the same brand.
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Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I use this DHEA and it's made by the same people that make Indolplex/DIM. I have been on this for a long time. My Wife found a new Dr. and he found her DHEA to be below range and sold her the same brand.
Invalid Link Removed
Phil
Click to expand...
Thank you, (but I am still waiting for our Dr. John favorite DHEA).
What is your blood DHEAs level?
Did it changed with using this product?
 
JanSz said:
Thank you, (but I am still waiting for our Dr. John favorite DHEA).
What is your blood DHEAs level?
Did it changed with using this product?
Click to expand...
My last test was to high I have been on 25mgs 2x's a day for some time when I added Cortef HC my levels of Total T, Free T and DHEA went way up total t 1252 range 262 to 1593 we like to keep it at 800. DHEA went up over the top of the rance to 574 range 80 to 560 ug/dj so we cut back to just 25mgs.
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
My last test was to high I have been on 25mgs 2x's a day for some time when I added Cortef HC my levels of Total T, Free T and DHEA went way up total t 1252 range 262 to 1593 we like to keep it at 800. DHEA went up over the top of the rance to 574 range 80 to 560 ug/dj so we cut back to just 25mgs.
Phil
Click to expand...
I do not know what to say, I am eating massive amounts of (I think good quality) DHEA and I do see increase from 110 in Apr 05 to 369 in Oct 06. Not enough for the amount of consumed DHEA and 7ketoDHEA.
When I get of my butt and start seriously with my adrenals/thyroid and add HCG to my plan I hope to change my DHEA situation. After all, DHEA is produced by adrenals. At the moment I am assuming that my adrenals need help.
---------------
I would like to assume that DHEA that I am using is of good quality and figure out what may be the reason for my slow response.
Side discussion on DHEA quality is a distraction in this goal and I would like to avoid that.
 
Just in case anyone is interested. Here's a nice looking figure that outlines the Adrenal pathways of androgens...

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My Dr. has me fast for my blood work some of the tests he does needs me to fast and not do meds the morning of the test.
Phil
 
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