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DJbombsquad, Why do you not eat meat when your goal is to build muscle?

jakellpet said:
Pork? I will run a check, but I was under the impression that Pork is slow-digesting and lower in protein compared to other meats.

...but on the otherhand some say it's the closest tasting meat to human flesh :bandit:
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still has similar creatine to beef :D i dont eat pork very often actually. ribs mainly, a tenderloin once in a blue moon. I'm mostly a fish + chicken breasts guy. I should eat more red meat.
 
EasyEJL said:
still has similar creatine to beef :D i dont eat pork very often actually. ribs mainly, a tenderloin once in a blue moon. I'm mostly a fish + chicken breasts guy. I should eat more red meat.
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I have Pork in my stirfrys for a bit of variety - man, I so love Ribs. It's a weakness of mine:


...and a fine pair of t1tties :bandit:
 
i finally worked out how to do ribs perfectly. its a total drag, takes way too long, but works every time. 2.5 hours in the over wrapped in foil after a dry rub at 220f, then high heat grill for a couple minutes each side, pull off the grill and toss quick in bbq sauce, then back on for another couple min to glaze up the sauce. totally rocks, the only downside is that the ribs are already so soft from the baking part that you have to be really gently when you grill them
 
EasyEJL said:
i finally worked out how to do ribs perfectly. its a total drag, takes way too long, but works every time. 2.5 hours in the over wrapped in foil after a dry rub at 220f, then high heat grill for a couple minutes each side, pull off the grill and toss quick in bbq sauce, then back on for another couple min to glaze up the sauce. totally rocks, the only downside is that the ribs are already so soft from the baking part that you have to be really gently when you grill them
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I like to boil them before the grill. Makes them fall off the bone. mmmmm
 
This thread has turned into a "how to" for cooking various meat dishes... :toofunny:
 
gismo0184 said:
He eats eggs in the morning with his egg and cheese burrito, he says so in the AMS threads...:poke:
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Oh god, every time he post, he makes himself look bad. This is no joke the biggest case of self ownage I have witnessed.

Im trying to be nice to you DJ. I told you awhile ago, if you keep quiet, you wont exposing yourself to self ownage. It's like every time he post, he punches himself in the nuts for fun. :yikes:
 
Hi, you have received -1317 reputation points from smeton_yea.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
I know DJ. Hes smart at martial arts and has been doing it since hes been a young laddy

Regards,
smeton_yea

BTW smeton, I wasn't talking about how smart he is at martial arts. Just so you know, you seem to have just as much logic as DJ. It's great that your trying to defend him, but please have a relevant argument when going against me. I could careless how good he is at martial arts. I never asked and I never cared. Thanks for the info.
 
Quite a substantial portion of the [ridiculous] Speciesism argument that DJ is blathering on about is fallacious in the fullest; this flawed logic stems right from Peter Singer's inflated and self-righteous 'Animal Manifesto' [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_(book)]. When considered from an epistemological position, there is no more justification for not consuming meat than consuming meat, and bringing up the animal-morality ridiculousness stalls immediately. I have had a discussions similar to this several times; it repeats ad nasuem, as follows:

Vegan: Animals are sentient, and therefore, as ethical creatures we should not consume them!

Myself: An animal would consume me given the proper circumstances of hunger, and a risk-reward scenario that benefits them; quite similar to the way I consume meat. Why are these ethics not universal?

Vegan: Because animals do not have ethics! They kill only out of necessity!

Myself: So do I: I eat meat to survive, but I digress. How is an animal to differentiate between a necessity-based and a non-necessity-based killing without ethics? How would it care if I consumed it?

Vegan: An organism doesn't need to have ethics to feel suffering! We should safeguard animals solely because they feel pain!

Myself: I see. So, the killing of any animal which feels pain is wrong, in your opinion?

Vegan: Yes!

Myself: So animals are wrong for killing me in certain circumstances, then? But how can something be 'morally wrong' without internal ethics?

Vegan: Well, uhh, like I said, animals don't have ethics...so....look at this PETA picture!!!!

And then a deliberate misrepresentation of farming methods are produced in order to sway one's opinion. Individuals who are swayed by this propaganda often make me laugh! These same people read Mein Kampf and begin hating Jews. PETA stands for: Propaganda Effect 'Tards' Attitudes. It is a classic logical fallacy:

I. Argumentum ad Misericordiam (argument from pity or misery) the fallacy committed when pity or a related emotion such as sympathy or compassion is appealed to for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted.

Hence, assent or dissent to a statement or an argument is sought on the basis of an irrelevant appeal to pity. In other words, pity, or the related emotion is not the subject or the conclusion of the argument.


The informal structure of the ad misericordiam usually is something like this:

Person L argues statement p or argument A.
L deserves pity because of circumstance y.
Circumstance y is irrelevant to p or A.
Statement p is true or argument A is good.

II. Some typical ad misericordiam fallacy examples follow.


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Georgia Banker Bert Lance should be excused from conflict of interest divestiture problems, former President Jimmy Carter asserted, because Lance's promise to sell his stock so that he can serve his government has depressed its market value.


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Oh, Officer, There's no reason to give me a traffic ticket for going too fast because I was just on my way to the hospital to see my wife who is in serious condition to tell her I just lost my job and the car will be repossessed.


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Members of Congress can surely see in their hearts that they need to vote in favor of passage of the Gun Bill allowing concealed weapons because their constituents who lobby for liberalizing firearms will be greatly saddened if they do not do so.


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I dunno if it's been posted or not. Dunno if you guys have seen it or not.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY"]YouTube - Bullshit-Peta[/ame]
 
Cellardude said:
Hi, you have received -1317 reputation points from smeton_yea.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
I know DJ. Hes smart at martial arts and has been doing it since hes been a young laddy

Regards,
smeton_yea

BTW smeton, I wasn't talking about how smart he is at martial arts. Just so you know, you seem to have just as much logic as DJ. It's great that your trying to defend him, but please have a relevant argument when going against me. I could careless how good he is at martial arts. I never asked and I never cared. Thanks for the info.
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Is John handing out the negs to protect his 'young laddy'?

Where's mine??? :bandit:
 
SilentBob187 said:
I dunno if it's been posted or not. Dunno if you guys have seen it or not.

Invalid Link Removed
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what a nut job. I always though PETA was full of ****. My gay(literally gay) english teacher brought in a PETA speaker. He was full of crap too. I don't like the idea of my animals being tortured but it ain't going to stop me from eating beef. Crazy nut jobs PETA people. I actually had to do a project on that stuff. I also scared a girl out of eating meat when I showed her some of those videos as a tease. Ill bet that video of what a quack PETA is might change her mind.

Good posting. :biglaugh:
 
hman85 said:
I like to boil them before the grill. Makes them fall off the bone. mmmmm
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the baking at 220 after a dry rub works better. takes them to the same temp, so softens all the connective tissue, but their texture is much nice that way. try it next time :D works particularly fantastic with the boness country style pork ribs.
 
This reminds me of the time I had a vegan (who was overweight) tell me that my diet was horrible and would lead to disease (mainly because I eat steak...lots of steak). All I said is that she may want to rethink her caloric intake before she starts telling people that their diets are bad.
 
Rodja said:
This reminds me of the time I had a vegan (who was overweight) tell me that my diet was horrible and would lead to disease (mainly because I eat steak...lots of steak). All I said is that she may want to rethink her caloric intake before she starts telling people that their diets are bad.
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lmao.

Fatties telling you how to be cut up. :lmao:
 
smeaton stands up for other tards, makes me picture a retard superhero duo LOL. Can you guys see it? Smeaton and DJbum fight to keep retard rights to build muscle.
 
Wow im watching all these PETA videos and im getting sick i want to kill these idiots. Im gonna start a new thread called Fukc PETA!
 
pistonpump said:
Wow im watching all these PETA videos and im getting sick i want to kill these idiots. Im gonna start a new thread called Fukc PETA!
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i remember when i was a little boy,and we used to prepare kalua pig for new years parties.and they would bring the pig out of the trailer,and my dad would have a rifle in hand to do the deed.i would always close my eyes when he put the tip of the barrell to the pigs head, and fired!...i always felt sad for the animals.but the pig always tasted good!
 
bslick69b said:
i remember when i was a little boy,and we used to prepare kalua pig for new years parties.and they would bring the pig out of the trailer,and my dad would have a rifle in hand to do the deed.i would always close my eyes when he put the tip of the barrell to the pigs head, and fired!...i always felt sad for the animals.but the pig always tasted good!
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If you didn't EAT that Pig you'd be 135lb! :bandit:
 
interview on John Berardi going vegetarian pulled from t-nation


Can Vegetarians Build Muscle?

Testosterone Muscle: John, what the heck are you doing, and why the heck are you doing it?

John Berardi: I've always been interested in the vegetarian thing, simply because of all the debate. I leaned toward the anti-vegetarian stance early in my career.

As an athlete and a weight lifter, I grew up around guys who liked to eat meat. It's beyond scientific question anymore. It's beyond any sort of reasonable debate. It's almost religious. Eat meat and you're good. Don't eat meat and you're an idiot.

The fascinating thing is that vegetarians and vegans take the exact same approach, just from the other side.

TM: So what gave you the idea to try it out on yourself?

JB: I was approached by a vegan in the gym who was having trouble gaining muscle. He was a big fan of this site and my work here, even said he'd read all my articles. My first response was, "If you've read all my articles, why are you a vegan? They all recommend meat!"

The guy turned out to be a little grainophobic, and as a vegan you need to include a lot of grains. There was no chance he was going to build any muscle. He just wasn't eating enough calories. So I helped him tweak his diet plan.

When I was done, I thought, this actually doesn't look bad. The food looked appetizing, and it looked like a fun way to eat, at least for a short period of time. I mentioned to my friends that I was considering trying it, and of course their response was, "Dude, you just can't build muscle on a vegetarian diet. It's impossible! In fact, you'll lose muscle!"

Well, that became a challenge. I'm the eternal self-experimenter. I love trying out nutritional theories on myself. So I decided to put this to a test. Let's see if I can eat a nearly vegan diet and build muscle while doing it.

TM: Wait, your goal is actually to build muscle on a vegetarian diet?

JB: Absolutely. The last couple of years haven't been about increasing my muscle mass. I'm in my mid-30s now, I'm focusing on my company, and I'm actually really happy with how my body looks. I've basically been in a maintenance phase. So now I'm thinking, what the heck, why not try to build some muscle, and try to do it like a vegan?

TM: What's your goal?

JB: Gain about 10 pounds of lean mass over the course of the next month or so. Maybe I'll take this out to two months. If it goes horribly wrong and I lose five pounds of muscle and gain 10 pounds of fat, then I'll just quit.
Can Vegetarians Build Muscle? Can Vegetarians Build Muscle?

Berardi before his plant-based diet: 179.6 pounds, 5.5 percent body fat

TM: We've been saying "vegetarian" and "vegan" here, but I know you don't actually like those terms. Why?

JB: I use "vegetarian" because people know what that means, but I like "plant-based" better. Bodybuilders especially have this immediate, visceral reaction to the word "vegetarian." Maybe it's because the vegetarians they've met were all militant and called them "animal killers" or something.

There's often this moral, emotional, or philosophical attachment to not eating meat. I really don't have any of those issues right now. I'm doing this for the humans, not the animals!

Also, "vegetarianism" can mean eating a whole bunch of crappy, processed foods, just not eating meat. I've seen vegetarians eating boxed cereals, foods with processed chemicals, TV dinners. Their diets were defined by the absence of meat, not by what was included.

TM: Great point. So what is included? Is it all plant-based, or is there some animal food involved?

JB: I'm going to have three eggs in the morning and I'm including some honey, which I've recently learned is a no-no for vegans. I'm also taking a digestive enzyme supplement that contains about 15 milligrams of ox bile, so technically that's not vegan-compliant. The rest is completely vegan, so I guess that technically makes me a pretend lacto-ovo vegetarian.

TM: Is meat really bad to begin with? Are the vegetarians on to something, or are they just weird smelly dudes in hemp sneakers?

JB: I see good arguments on both sides. There's no question that eating the right kind of meat in the right amount fits into an overall healthy diet. You're getting high protein, high B vitamins, and important vitamins and minerals that you really can't get in any other way unless you supplement. Health and muscle-building are severely compromised if any of these nutrients are missing. That's the argument for meat.

But there's also a relationship between eating meat and cancer risks.

TM: I just heard the state of Texas scream.

JB: It's not just speculation. Over 100 published epidemiological studies show a link between eating meat and cancer.

TM: But what's the link? Can we buffer the risk?

JB: Well, in large part, the link exists because meat eaters tend to eat less of other healthy things. So their diets tend to be very high in calories, high in saturated fat, low in fiber, low in antioxidants, and low in vitamins and minerals.

The solution isn't to not eat meat. It's to balance out the meat with other healthy foods.

TM: This reminds me of your "Defeating Dietary Displacement" articles. The problem is that meat eaters are displacing things like leafy greens.

JB: That's exactly it. But it's not the only concern.

There's some pretty compelling evidence that potentially carcinogenic [cancer-causing] compounds are introduced into our bodies when we eat cooked meat. The most problematic seem to be processed meats — lunch meat, canned meats, jerkies — and heavily grilled or charred meat.

But again, saying we shouldn't eat meat because of this is a mistake. These risks can be managed.

TM: So what do we do?

JB: Don't overcook your meat, especially on the grill. And avoid or at least limit processed meats.

Finally, you've got to increase your intake of fiber, fruits, and vegetables. You know, fiber has protective effects against the specific cancers meat is correlated with — stomach and colon. Eat more fiber and reduce your risk. Balance it out.

TM: I've also heard that meat is saturated with hormones and antibiotics given to livestock to make them meatier and keep them from becoming deadstock. But this one seems easy to me — just get some grass-fed, free-range stuff and don't sweat it. Right?

JB: That's exactly right. If you eat mostly farm-raised meat, you're getting hormones, environmental pollutants, and antibiotics.

TM: I'm guessing some of the bodybuilders reading this will say, "Hey, if these hormones make the cows grow, maybe they'll help me grow too!"

JB: A huge percentage of every anabolic cocktail given to cattle is estrogen, because estrogen increases marbling in the meat. But again, why not just eat more hormone-free, naturally raised, grass-fed meat? No vegetarianism required.

TM: Every wacky vegetarian I know mentions the large amount of "undigested, rotting meat" in my belly. What are they talking about?

JB: Ever heard the John Wayne story?

TM: Something about finding 40 or 50 pounds of meat in his colon?

JB: That's the one!

The story goes that when John Wayne died of cancer, they did an autopsy and found 40 pounds of impacted fecal matter. Now you hear some vegans using the claim to "prove" that we aren't evolved to eat meat.

Well, John Wayne never even had an autopsy. The story is completely made up. It's possible to get some fecal build-up in the colon, but if you get anything approximating a pound in there, it's incredibly painful and you'd start bleeding from the rectum. Forty pounds is completely impossible.

A pound of undigested foodstuff might happen under a couple of conditions. Some people may be genetically susceptible. To compound that, some North Americans have almost no fiber [in their diets], and take drugs that decrease gastrointestinal motility, like some blood pressure medications and antidepressants.

So it could happen, although it's not likely. If it did, meat wasn't the cause. It's more about what's missing from the diet and what drugs people are taking.

TM: Before we move on, I have to bring up Bill Pearl here. Bill won his fourth Mr. Universe title in 1971, when he was a 41-year-old lacto-ovo vegetarian. He said he'd been steroid-free for the past 10 years. Since he won his first three Mr. Universe titles as a meat-eater, what does it mean when he wins his last one without meat?

JB: Most bodybuilders who claim to be vegetarians became vegetarians after they built their muscle, or after they retired. So that's not exactly evidence that you can be a successful bodybuilder as a vegetarian. He's the only example in the history of pro bodybuilding of someone being successful on a vegetarian plan.

Now, I think you can actually build a pretty great body being a vegan. I don't think that's a problem. I think you can be a successful athlete as a vegan too. But I think being a very successful bodybuilder as a vegan is a tough challenge. You have to build a maximal amount of muscle mass, get shredded for the stage, and win at the highest level of competition. It's unlikely to happen.

As a vegan you have to go through carbs to get your protein. It's a challenge. You'd have to have the right genetics so you can tolerate carbs, and you'd have to do a lot of drugs.

TM: One more question about veganism before we get back to your specific plan: Is there some net health effect of an all-vegan diet? Vegetarians claim there's a cleansing effect.

JB: I don't agree with anyone arguing that it's fundamentally healthier to be a vegan. Yes, a proper vegan diet is healthier than the typical North American diet. There is a cleansing effect — you'll be cleaner, but only if your diet was dirty to begin with. But that can happen when you start eating healthier, whether it's vegetarian or not.

Quick story: A girl I met told me she was doing "a cleanse." I thought it was some silly juice-drinking nonsense, and I was all set to mock her for it. Then she told me her "fast" was to eat nothing but chicken breasts, brown rice, and broccoli for a month. She said she was feeling great.

I was like, no ****. You got rid of all the fast food, all the sugar, and all the junk that was making you feel so bad!

A lot of vegetarians experience this. They feel great because they got rid of dietary chemicals, processed food, sugar, caffeine, hormones, all that stuff. Then they eat more fiber, antioxidants, and micronutrients. And for the first time they're eating them in abundance. So it's not a magic vegetarian thing, it's an eating right thing.

Plus, they eat fewer total calories when they first switch to veganism. And that helps some people feel less weighed down and more energetic.

TM: Let's just break down your plant-based diet and talk macros. Where will your protein come from?

JB: I'm getting around 150 to 200 grams of protein per day on my plan. It's coming from eggs at breakfast, a small amount of soy milk during the day, vegan protein supplements that give me 60 grams a day, and two cups of beans per day, with whole-grain sprouted bread.

A couple of my snacks have seeds and nuts. I'm also supplementing with branched-chain amino acids. When I wake up in the morning I take around five grams of Biotest BCAAs, and during my workout I take about 14 grams of liquid amino acids.

Now, complete proteins are probably the best way to go, so the big question is, with adequate calories and an ample amount of protein, can you build muscle on a plant-based diet?

I think the answer is yes, but there hasn't been a study where you weight-train men, overfeed them, and see if they gain muscle on a vegan meal plan.

TM: I do recall a couple of studies like this, but the results were mixed.

JB: One of them was done by Bill Campbell in the late '90s. [1] Two groups of newbies ate identical calories and weight trained. One group ate a vegetarian diet. The other included meat.

The vegetarian group didn't lose any fat or gain any muscle with the strength training. In fact, they lost a tiny bit of muscle. In the meat-eating group, they actually saw muscle increase and fat loss. We used that study for a long time to say that vegetarianism wasn't the best for weight trainers.

But another study by Mark Tarnopolsky replicated the original study and found no differences between the meat-eating and vegetarian groups. [2] It's important to note that these studies were not vegan, but vegetarian. The non-meat eaters could eat dairy and eggs.

So I haven't seen a really well-done study looking only at veganism.

TM: What do your total calories look like on this plan?

JB: Around 4,000 per day.

TM: Where are the fats coming from?

JB: I get fats from whole eggs, mixed nuts, homemade hummus, flax seed and olive oil, and a vegan EPA/DHA supplement made from algae. This EPA/DHA product is three times the price of Flameout — which is what I normally use — and each capsule has a lower amount of DHA than a fish oil-based product would, but I wanted to keep it as vegan as possible.

TM: Getting adequate carbs is the easy part, right?

JB: It is. But here's the interesting thing for me: I feel it's actually going to be pretty easy to build muscle on a vegan plan — you just have to eat a lot of food. What's probably difficult is getting super ripped. These foods have a high percentage of carbs compared to proteins and fats.

It's not a problem getting lean on a vegan plan. But to actually preserve muscle mass and be bodybuilder-lean, that might be a challenge.

I'm able to tolerate carbs well. I'm naturally an ectomorph, so I need a high-carb diet to begin with. But the classic endomorphs who put on fat easily and have a harder time with carbs, they're going to have trouble because you just can't avoid carbs in a vegan plan.

TM: What's it like to eat all those beans and the grains? I think you mentioned something to me on the phone about, er, issues ...

JB: On the first day I was pretty much farting nonstop. The sheets floated a foot above the bed. I didn't think I could deal with it.

On the third day, I measured my stomach circumference when I woke up and it was 32 inches — normal. I measured it at 10 p.m., after a full day of vegetarian eating, and it was 42 inches! I looked like a mini-Ronnie Coleman.

My abs were visible, but they were sticking out an extra 10 inches. It wasn't fat or water, just straight-up air. I started taking the digestive enzyme, and it's a lot better now.

I'm told that it takes about two weeks to adapt, so if it's gone in two weeks, no problem. But it is something you need to be prepared for.

TM: You've just started your plan, but what lessons can the typical omnivorous bodybuilder learn from a vegetarian?

JB: I've learned some valuable lessons already. But let me tell you, you have to learn from propervegetarians and vegans, who actually eat the right foods, cover all their nutritional bases, and stay lean and healthy.

TM: For instance?

JB: Proper vegans find some really interesting ways to eat all their fruits, veggies, nuts, and seeds. Most omnivores don't, and maybe that's why they don't like these foods. They just don't know how to prepare them.

Vegan cookbooks are some of the best for showing you how to prepare vegetables in a tasty way.

The second thing is to eat more whole, unprocessed, natural foods. I don't know a lot of guys who seek out whole grains like quinoa. Proper vegans spend more time learning about where their food comes from — they have to. If you're interested, The Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food, by Michael Pollan, are a great place to start.

Carbs aren't so bad for your physique if they come from whole, unprocessed sources. But I don't think people really know what "whole" and "unprocessed" actually mean.

TM: It's not wheat bread?

JB: That's just regular white bread with a little caramel food coloring added in.

I'm talking about things like quinoa, which looks like an uninteresting bag of pellets, but it ends up tasting really fantastic if you learn what to do with it. Proper vegans know how to include these in their diets. And you aren't going to get fat from whole, high-fiber, low-glycemic-index, unprocessed grains like you can from other carbs.

I don't want to glamorize the vegan lifestyle at all because many vegans could learn a lot from omnivorous bodybuilders too, especially about protein intake. The learning can go both ways if both camps keep their minds open.

TM: Where do things stand with you right now?

JB: As of this interview, I'm one week into my vegan-ish eating plan. So far, the food choices are great. I'm not craving a steak or anything. When you're eating 4,000 calories of anything, you're pretty full all the time.

My training is going very well, my pumps are great from all the carbs, energy is good, and I'm up four pounds. So far it looks like lean mass. I'll be doing skinfolds and measurements at the two-week point.

TM: Any revelations so far, besides "don't put your head under the sheets"?

JB: I don't think meat, whether it's in or out of your diet plan, is the most important factor in your success. It's all this other stuff, all the food selections.

Also, I don't see myself hating this at all, though when my month or two is over, there's no question I'll be going to eat a steak at The Keg. That's a forgone conclusion!

I'd say that most vegans probably could use meat in their diets, and most heavy meat eaters could stand to eat a little less. We'd be a healthier North America if we agreed to meet in the middle.

TM: So where can Testosterone readers go to follow your progress?

JB: I'm posting all about it on our Precision Nutrition site in the blog section. I'll post updates every two weeks. Also, we'll be including a plant-based diet guide in the new Precision Nutrition 3.0.

And I'll post updates here at Testosterone too.

TM: Awesome. Good luck!


References

1) Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Dec;70(6):1032-9. Effects of an omnivorous diet compared with a lactoovovegetarian diet on resistance-training-induced changes in body composition and skeletal muscle in older men. Campbell WW, Barton ML Jr, Cyr-Campbell D, Davey SL, Beard JL, Parise G, Evans WJ. Nutrition, Metabolism, and Exercise Laboratory, Donald W Reynolds Department of Geriatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock 72114, USA.

2) Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Sep;76(3):511-7. Effect of protein source on resistive-training-induced changes in body composition and muscle size in older men. Haub MD, Wells AM, Tarnopolsky MA, Campbell WW. Department of Human Nutrition, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66506.
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A huge percentage of every anabolic cocktail given to cattle is estrogen, because estrogen increases marbling in the meat. But again, why not just eat more hormone-free, naturally raised, grass-fed meat?
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TM: I've also heard that meat is saturated with hormones and antibiotics given to livestock to make them meatier and keep them from becoming deadstock. But this one seems easy to me — just get some grass-fed, free-range stuff and don't sweat it. Right?

JB: That's exactly right. If you eat mostly farm-raised meat, you're getting hormones, environmental pollutants, and antibiotics.
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It is true in the US they force-feed your livestock with all kinds of junk. You wont find that in New Zealand or Australia - I guess we're lucky.

Quick story: A girl I met told me she was doing "a cleanse." I thought it was some silly juice-drinking nonsense, and I was all set to mock her for it. Then she told me her "fast" was to eat nothing but chicken breasts, brown rice, and broccoli for a month. She said she was feeling great.
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I've been doing this for over 6 weeks - it works! Details via my sig link.

The story goes that when John Wayne died of cancer, they did an autopsy and found 40 pounds of impacted fecal matter. Now you hear some vegans using the claim to "prove" that we aren't evolved to eat meat.
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Regular enemas are another good clensing method - you'll be amazed how good you'll feel after the initial violation (no gay)

Hell, you can take the best of both worlds - there's plenty of vegetarian food I'm into - especially Middle Eastern/North African. But end of the day, we evolved from eating a protein-heavy diet. I'm not going to Devo. :bandit:
 
jakellpet said:
Hell, you can take the best of both worlds - there's plenty of vegetarian food I'm into - especially Middle Eastern/North African. But end of the day, we evolved from eating a protein-heavy diet. I'm not going to Devo. :bandit:
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Did someone say Devo?
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxH39QlRuhg"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
It is true in the US they force-feed your livestock with all kinds of junk. You wont find that in New Zealand or Australia - I guess we're lucky.
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You make it sound as if we're shoving stuff down their throat. It's just mixed into their feed and they eat it normally. Force-feeding makes it sound inhumane.

I guarantee that NZ and Australia both do that same practice. Not to the same extent but they 'force-feed' their cattle as well.
 
TheAg said:
You make it sound as if we're shoving stuff down their throat. It's just mixed into their feed and they eat it normally. Force-feeding makes it sound inhumane.

I guarantee that NZ and Australia both do that same practice. Not to the same extent but they 'force-feed' their cattle as well.
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mate, we have all this green sh1t called grass that grows all year round - we don't winter shelter, use grain or growth hormones. :bandit:
 
Growth hormones I'll meet you at, but grain? What's wrong with that? Provides excellent weight gains in cattle.
 
TheAg said:
Growth hormones I'll meet you at, but grain? What's wrong with that? Provides excellent weight gains in cattle.
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. . . sure it produces weight gain, it's like you getting fed huge amounts of bread for the last few months of your life. Grass = multi VMA = quality produce :bandit:
 
Except they don't get fed just (or even huge amounts of) grain: it's a supplement for them. Grain is too expensive to feed solely.

But a diet (for cattle) with grain trumps a diet with no grain any day of the week. That's why I'm wondering what's the problem with grain?
 
jakellpet said:
It is true in the US they force-feed your livestock with all kinds of junk. You wont find that in New Zealand or Australia - I guess we're lucky.
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Nearly 30% of beef produced Australia is raised on feedlots (your so called force feeding...). Feedlot=Grain

Time to hop down off your high horse there partner...:lmao:
TheAg said:
Except they don't get fed just (or even huge amounts of) grain: it's a supplement for them. Grain is too expensive to feed solely.

But a diet (for cattle) with grain trumps a diet with no grain any day of the week. That's why I'm wondering what's the problem with grain?
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Damn it you opened the door for the the "its not their natural diet"/"support meds/antibiotics" etc...arguments.
 
TheAg said:
You make it sound as if we're shoving stuff down their throat. It's just mixed into their feed and they eat it normally. Force-feeding makes it sound inhumane.

I guarantee that NZ and Australia both do that same practice. Not to the same extent but they 'force-feed' their cattle as well.
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no, its not in their feed, its injected. thats where Fina pellets are used, and Synovex.
 
EasyEJL said:
no, its not in their feed, its injected. thats where Fina pellets are used, and Synovex.
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They do use implants in Australia, for example here is an .au site marketing them. I don't know how prevalent their use is but...
hxxp://crtkyneton.com.au/animaltech_elanco.htm
Stupid 50 post requirement...%&$#@

What does it really matter if implants are used? Don't buy into the hype...
 
Damn it you opened the door for the the "its not their natural diet"/"support meds/antibiotics" etc...arguments.
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Those same people should look at themselves first. They're on support meds and ABs as well.

Anyone who's ever seen a cow get free reign into a grain field can tell you it's a very natural food source for them. Problem is, most of the time they gorge themselves and it either bloats them or causes a pH shift in their rumen, allowing for opportunistic infections and maldigestion of other foods as the bacteria shifts.

no, its not in their feed, its injected. thats where Fina pellets are used, and Synovex.
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I'm not talking about the hormones (that's why I said I'd meet him at that). The rest of it is given through feed or injection (like vaccines or immediately needed medicines). Feed is the preferred method because it's a much cheaper route.
 
TheAg said:
Those same people should look at themselves first. They're on support meds and ABs as well.

Anyone who's ever seen a cow get free reign into a grain field can tell you it's a very natural food source for them. Problem is, most of the time they gorge themselves and it either bloats them or causes a pH shift in their rumen, allowing for opportunistic infections and maldigestion of other foods as the bacteria shifts.
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TheAg: I assume you are a vet student? Large animal I hope...there are too many sissy cat and dog vets out there. Nice to see someone else out there with a similar perspective.
 
Mixed, hopefully. Either that or a stint into immunology research, haven't quite decided. Leaning towards the former though since it's more demanding/changing job choice.

I like dogs, horses, cows, cats, pigs, etc. Anything but exotics I've no problem treating and dealing with. It's funny that I'm afraid of a macaw that can bite through a broom handle but not a horse that can destroy my rib cage in a single stroke.
 
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