Unanswered Dieting Insomnia

Outofbody

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What follows is far-fetched conjecture, just my own application of a bunch of different ideas and it may be way off:

Of course, we use adenosine to form adenosine triphosphate - ATP. We break down adenosine with an enzyme called adenosine deaminase. During the day, we are breaking down ATP and adenosine builds up in our tissues from the energy use. This makes it a perfect molecule for signaling a need for sleep. Once it builds to a high enough level in our brains, we get sleepy. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist - it blocks the action of adenosine and thus keeps us awake.

Once we are asleep, adenosine deaminase starts clearing out the built up adenosine, and it falls throughout the night (relatively quickly actually) and this creates a better environment for wakefulness.

Adenosine has an effect on every tissue in the body, and often contradictory effects because there are 4 different receptors and these receptors have different affinities, different tissues have different densities and distributions of these receptors, etc. This means that while adenosine may make our brains sleepy in general, too much can also be excitory.

So, for instance, when you have a certain level of adenosine in a certain area of the brain it will activate the A2a receptors (going from memory, the sub receptor may be wrong) because these receptors are abundant and have a higher affinity for adenosine - but if adenosine becomes so elevated that all these receptors are full, you will start activating the A1 receptors in this section of the brain with the remaining adenosine and this will have the opposite effect.

So, too high or too low and you may have seemingly paradoxical effects.

There is a heart connection as well because A2a agonists induce sleep, but also have negative effects on heart tissue (which is why we don't use them for insomnia).

Adenosine is also, again obviously, a major component of Adenosine Monophosphate (AMP) which builds in cells during energy usage (exercise, dieting, etc.) and we eliminate this with AMPK. Just for the connection.

So, I'm not sure if there is actually any genetic "disease" or clinical situation where some people might have lower levels of adenosine from dieting, or higher levels of adenosine deaminase - but it may play a role.

I did find this: https://www.pnas.org/content/102/43/15676

Perhaps you run low on adenosine early in the night - either because you have low levels of adenosine or because you have high levels of adenosine deaminase that clear it out quickly?

Not really sure what to do to test it...as I'm just thinking out loud here...but maybe those ideas create more discussion? I could be wrong as well about some of it...

As far as the B12 - do you take methylated formulations? I was wondering if you might have issues utilizing some forms of B vitamins - which is why I suggested the P5P for the ZMA formulations....

I'm really not sure what this is, but you're not the only person who claims they get insomnia from caloric deficits and I think most people write it off as "hunger is waking you up" or discomfort - but I'm not sure there isn't a chemical pathway underlying it all.
Interesting. Reminds me that I once used to inject pure AMP. I can't for the life of me remember why though. It was gifted to me by someone who wanted me to try it.
 
GreenMachineX

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I also wonder if liver glycogen depletion plays a role in all this. I definitely sleep better those nights filled with pizza and ice cream. Maybe my “healthy” diet doesn’t supply enough fructose to keep liver glycogen full.
 
HIT4ME

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I also wonder if liver glycogen depletion plays a role in all this. I definitely sleep better those nights filled with pizza and ice cream. Maybe my “healthy” diet doesn’t supply enough fructose to keep liver glycogen full.
This makes me wonder about seratonin levels, also another sleep factor.
 

_Endure_

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I also wonder if liver glycogen depletion plays a role in all this. I definitely sleep better those nights filled with pizza and ice cream. Maybe my “healthy” diet doesn’t supply enough fructose to keep liver glycogen full.
Again see my post about raw honey. It keeps blood sugar and glycogen stable through the night on very little dosage. You don't need 50g's of sugar to do it and it's healthy.
 
HIT4ME

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Carbohydrates are necessary for seratonin production, regardless of tryptophan intake. If you are depleting carbs, seratonin will fall, and your mood and sleep will suffer.

This is actually something I should have thought of sooner...it is pretty well known but I was thinking low calories not low carb.

Looking at your food sources, there aren't a lot of carbs even if you are not focused on keto.

The honey or even some pasta or rice for dinner may have an effect.
 
GreenMachineX

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Regarding the honey idea, isn’t that just spiking insulin? Wouldn’t taking it with dinner at least be better?
 
GreenMachineX

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Carbohydrates are necessary for seratonin production, regardless of tryptophan intake. If you are depleting carbs, seratonin will fall, and your mood and sleep will suffer.

This is actually something I should have thought of sooner...it is pretty well known but I was thinking low calories not low carb.

Looking at your food sources, there aren't a lot of carbs even if you are not focused on keto.

The honey or even some pasta or rice for dinner may have an effect.
How many grams of carbs from rice are you thinking for example? 40g cho from oats at both lunch and dinner aren’t cutting it.
 
GreenMachineX

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I figure this could be my sleep log, so to speak.
So, struggling to sleep all week, except last night had 4 slices cheesesteak pizza and 8 wings, and took 5mg time release melatonin. Dreamt hard, only woke up once, and hardcore morning wood 😂
 
HIT4ME

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It actually seems from some more research I did that to a large extent, protein depletes seratonin and carbs create a minor increase.

You eat oats at dinner? Maybe try to swap the oats with rice or pasta? The quicker insulin spike will help convert tryptophan to seratonin I believe.

Maybe try eating most of your protein earlier in the day and shifting carbs later in the day?

I think the pizza experiment and then having a better night sleep may be meaningless, but it may be an arrow pointing in a direction...
 
GreenMachineX

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It actually seems from some more research I did that to a large extent, protein depletes seratonin and carbs create a minor increase.

You eat oats at dinner? Maybe try to swap the oats with rice or pasta? The quicker insulin spike will help convert tryptophan to seratonin I believe.

Maybe try eating most of your protein earlier in the day and shifting carbs later in the day?

I think the pizza experiment and then having a better night sleep may be meaningless, but it may be an arrow pointing in a direction...
I gotcha. Pizza wasn’t really an experiment so much as it was just Friday night lol.
 
HIT4ME

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I gotcha. Pizza wasn’t really an experiment so much as it was just Friday night lol.
Yeah, I know, haha. I figure it yielded observations, so it qualifies as an expression. lol
 
GreenMachineX

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Yeah, I know, haha. I figure it yielded observations, so it qualifies as an expression. lol
When I decide to tighten up Monday; any ideas how many carbs I should try at bed time?
 
HIT4ME

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No idea. My feeling is that two things may be at issue - it could just be that you are insulin sensitive (good) and the oats are not requiring much insulin so you aren't getting a seratonin boost from them.

The other issue is, if you burn a lot of glucose through exercise and daily activity, 80-100 grams a day may not be enough daily. You may want to just bump it up by 25 grams at a time, maybe shift sine carbs to the end of the day, and change the carb sources.

Another factor to complicate things is that protein can deplete seratonin, so shifting your protein away from nighttime (within reason) may be helpful...I am just theorizing here and hope it leads somewhere.
 
GreenMachineX

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No idea. My feeling is that two things may be at issue - it could just be that you are insulin sensitive (good) and the oats are not requiring much insulin so you aren't getting a seratonin boost from them.

The other issue is, if you burn a lot of glucose through exercise and daily activity, 80-100 grams a day may not be enough daily. You may want to just bump it up by 25 grams at a time, maybe shift sine carbs to the end of the day, and change the carb sources.

Another factor to complicate things is that protein can deplete seratonin, so shifting your protein away from nighttime (within reason) may be helpful...I am just theorizing here and hope it leads somewhere.
I’ll try it out. I’m going to change 1 think at a time though and still eat 50-60g protein per meal 3 times per day. So, I’ll go to 60g carbs at dinner for a few days in a deficit to see how that works.
 
HIT4ME

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I’ll try it out. I’m going to change 1 think at a time though and still eat 50-60g protein per meal 3 times per day. So, I’ll go to 60g carbs at dinner for a few days in a deficit to see how that works.
Yes, I agree with your approach. The four variables I see are:

1. Overall carb intake.
2. Late day carb intake.
3. Late day carb type (oats are relatively low GI).
4. Late day protein intake.

Obviously the first three are somewhat overlapping.

Or it could turn out none of it helps at all and we will be frustrated and back to square one.
 
GreenMachineX

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Right
Yes, I agree with your approach. The four variables I see are:

1. Overall carb intake.
2. Late day carb intake.
3. Late day carb type (oats are relatively low GI).
4. Late day protein intake.

Obviously the first three are somewhat overlapping.

Or it could turn out none of it helps at all and we will be frustrated and back to square one.
Right on.

The next thing I need to tackle is preworkout nutrition when working out first thing in the morning. Obviously caffeine, and I also use citrulline malate and taurine preworkout, but I’m also considering 20-30g palatinose because just caffeine is horrible. Even after weeks of working out fasted, I never adapted and made zero progress. Maybe dynamine or something else that doesn’t increase blood pressure, but will need some carbs I think too.
 
GreenMachineX

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Along with the higher carb intake at night, I’m going to go a lot higher on regular melatonin. Guess I’ll go with 3mg about 9pm, then 3mg more if needed in the middle of the night. I fell asleep watching tv last night and when I woke up at 1am is when I took 2mg instant release and no lethargy this morning. So I at least know I can go that high in the middle of the night and be fine.
 
GreenMachineX

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@Outofbody
Have you made any progress in your sleep experiments?
 
GreenMachineX

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Last night, ate a cup of oatmeal and put a tbsp of raw honey in it with dinner of 8oz burger and broccoli (and about 20 pretzels lol), so probably 60-70g net carbs. Took 3mg regular melatonin at 9:30pm, went to bed about 11pm and took another 3mg when I woke up at 1:30am. I only woke up 3 times but it wasn’t very restorative at all. More carbs or more melatonin next?
 
HIT4ME

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I would try switching the carbs to something with more starch first. The honey is good...try 50 grams of carbs from rice?

Waking up 3 times at night is fairly typical too...as long as you are falling back asleep. Do you have a fitbit or other monitoring device?
 
GreenMachineX

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I would try switching the carbs to something with more starch first. The honey is good...try 50 grams of carbs from rice?

Waking up 3 times at night is fairly typical too...as long as you are falling back asleep. Do you have a fitbit or other monitoring device?
Well, waking up a few times is fine except when it feels like you didn’t sleep; felt terrible all day.

It’s funny that you’re recommending higher glycemic foods and intentional insulin spikes; goes against everything I’ve ever learned in nutrition lol.

No monitoring device. I’ll try rice tomorrow probably. Tonight more pretzels with my oats and honey lol.
 
HIT4ME

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Well, waking up a few times is fine except when it feels like you didn’t sleep; felt terrible all day.

It’s funny that you’re recommending higher glycemic foods and intentional insulin spikes; goes against everything I’ve ever learned in nutrition lol.
Yeah, it sucks not feeling rested...didn't mean to imply anything else.

So, I will try to explain my reasoning to some degree...not that I feel it is lock solid.

One thing here is that, yes, tryptophan (tryp) is a precursor to seratonin...but more tryp by itself does not necessarily increase seratonin because most sources of tryp are proteins which have other "Large Neutral Amino Acids" (LNAA).

These LNAAs compete for transport across the blood-brain barrier, and inhibit tryptophan from getting into the brain. Thus, high protein can actually reduce seratonin levels, even though you have plenty of tryptophan around.

A big part of the key is your ratio of tryp:LNAA. The higher this ratio, the more 5-HT is likely to be made.

This is all backed up by these studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6400041

http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/static/pdf/993.pdf

Wurtman actually has a TON of interesting studies on this stuff and he has a list up on the MIT website:

http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/publications/tag/1/

So basically, part of the idea here is to create an insulin spike. Tryptophan is not really effected by insulin - but the other LNAAs are. So you spike insulin and this reduces the level of LNAAs in your blood, which elevates the tryp:LNAA ratio. With the lower competition from LNAAs to cross the BBB, more tryp can get into the brain to be converted to 5-HT.

Likewise, high protein meals increase LNAA's enough to inhibit 5-HT synthesis. This is shown in the second study (993.pdf) above as well as in this study which shows that the addition of 5% casein to a meal that has 70% carbohydrate is enough to eliminate the increase tryptophan ratio the meal would otherwise have:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0026049586902258

The notable LNAA's are Tryptophan, Tyrosine and the BCAA's. As you know, Tyrosine is necessary for dopamine production. Dopamine and seratonin are both responsible for sleep cycle regulation. They also seem to have a feedback loop - seratonin is necessary for the release of insulin.

Some research I came across from Wurtman also suggested that obese people have higher levels of LNAA's and lower levels of Tryptophan. This actually, in my mind, interlinks a bunch of puzzle pieces between seratonin, insulin, and food choices - and how that all leads to things like diabetes. It may not be simply that high glucose levels = diabetes. It may be a much more complex dance where seratonin depletion leads to a search for less nutrient dense foods, which leads to obesity, which stresses seratonin levels more, etc. But I've gone off topic a bit...

Anyway, what I'm saying is that you need to correct this by some combination of spiking insulin to reduce the LNAA's in your system or avoiding protein intake to reduce the LNAA's in your system. This means that front loading protein during the day so that your LNAAs drop at night, and then spiking insulin to help this along, may help get more tryptophan into your brain.

Also, keep in mind I'm not suggesting you mainline sugar here ....rice is reasonable, but now that I've laid it all out I may think that higher GI may be needed as well. I think limiting the protein as you get later in the day may be helpful in this case....although it may not be a daily timing thing as much as maybe you just need some meals that are higher in carbohydrate away from the protein meals.

Do you use BCAA's? Do you use whey protein a lot?

And yeah, some of this is surprising me a little here too...I tend to gravitate toward higher protein even just naturally, but now I am wondering if another strategy may be helpful for overall mental health. It also makes me wonder about BCAAs in the diet.
 
GreenMachineX

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Wow. Awesome response. I’ll have to read it a few times I think lol.

I don’t use bcaas and only 1 scoop of protein powder per day. It’s too late today to try a meal like that. Are you suggestion a meal of say 60g from rice and 20g protein, or even less protein than that?

I’ve also ordered ZMA also. I’m starting to wonder if the magnesium glycinate (glycine in particular) is causing issues, either by dropping blood glucose like you’ve mentioned or glutamate/nmda.
 
HIT4ME

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Wow. Awesome response. I’ll have to read it a few times I think lol.

I don’t use bcaas and only 1 scoop of protein powder per day. It’s too late today to try a meal like that. Are you suggestion a meal of say 60g from rice and 20g protein, or even less protein than that?

I’ve also ordered ZMA also. I’m starting to wonder if the magnesium glycinate (glycine in particular) is causing issues, either by dropping blood glucose like you’ve mentioned or glutamate/nmda.
I think starting with 60/20 makes some sense. If it doesn't work, trying less protein may help? But I think that is a good testing point. No need to get extreme. Also, I am not sure 100% a higher carb meal has to be at night necessarily...just maybe having a meal per day that has less protein and higher carbs may give the boost you need.

Wurtman also has some research showing that a carb drink, which of course he patented and now licensed, actually helped prevent weight gain that people experience from using certain psychological drugs...maybe carbs can effect appetite enough if used correctly, to actually aid in weight loss?

I am personally thinking I may experiment myself with making my meals less homogeneous....concentrating protein in some meals and carbs in others.

I always thought glycine always gabaergic and should help with sleep...so mag glycinate seems like it would be an improvement over mag aspartate, but Injust started using it again and that very thought has crossed my mind. Maybe may glycinate isn't as great for sleep as I thought. You could be onto something.
 
GreenMachineX

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Right on. Thanks for all the help. I’ll keep testing.

Regarding the ZMA, that’s what I used for years without sleep issues and at some point switched to mag glycinate because the multivitamin I switched to had a lot of zinc. Now that I found a better multi with less zinc, switching to ZMA hopefully fixes this. But there was definitely a period of maybe 6 months I used mag glycinate and slept fine (not great). We’ll see.
 
GreenMachineX

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Update:
600mcg time release melatonin and 3mg regular melatonin at 10pm. Dinner had 40g carbs from oats, 14g raw honey, and probably 30g carbs from pretzels (still lots of protein though). Slept pretty well overall. Still room for improvement though. I really don’t understand the high dose time release link to the intense dreams and morning wood though, and why last nights protocol doesn’t do that. Also, even 600mcg time release melatonin has me a little drowsy this morning.
 
HIT4ME

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Based on what I have learned from reading Wurtman's studies on his page, I am going to try to "sequester" macro nutrients today. Instead of somewhat homogenous meals, I will shift each meal to either carbs or protein.

For breakfast I had 1.5 cups of egg beaters, a cup of fair life and a scoop of whey protein = 75 grams protein and 387 calories.

Around lunch time I am going to have a higher carb meal (about 60-75 grams) with less than 15 grams protein.

I want to see if this strategy effects the "afternoon slump" and how it effects appetite. Right now I can't even think about food I am so full.
 
GreenMachineX

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Based on what I have learned from reading Wurtman's studies on his page, I am going to try to "sequester" macro nutrients today. Instead of somewhat homogenous meals, I will shift each meal to either carbs or protein.

For breakfast I had 1.5 cups of egg beaters, a cup of fair life and a scoop of whey protein = 75 grams protein and 387 calories.

Around lunch time I am going to have a higher carb meal (about 60-75 grams) with less than 15 grams protein.

I want to see if this strategy effects the "afternoon slump" and how it effects appetite. Right now I can't even think about food I am so full.
Interesting. My concern with such an approach (for me personally) is my body isn’t great at maintaining stable blood sugar without well balanced meals. With enough fat in a meal, I can wait hours to eat again, but just carbs and protein in a meal is a disaster in about 2 hours. That’s why my meals have been laid out the way I’ve mentioned. But, I wonder if I could get away with a high carb, low protein meal right after training, or perhaps drink Gatorade or isomaltutose during training to trigger the effects you’ve been talking about. On the other hand, I plan on going keto again at some point so I don’t think this is a long term solution.

I started agmatine again yesterday. Wondering if that plays a role in any of what we’re discussing with the effects on nmda antagonism, serotonin (I think?), and blood sugar/insulin sensitivity.
 
HIT4ME

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Some of the other research I have in my head around carbohydrate metabolism leads me to believe that low carb diets are counter-productive. Not saying they are not an effective tool, just that once we become fat we break a lot of the machinery that we need for energy balance. Low carb diets really just make the underlying issues worse, but they work because they also avoid dealing with the issues.

In other words, we get fat, carb metabolism is impaired, so if we don't eat carbs we don't need to worry about the fact that the machinery is broken...but that machinery being unused just gets rusty and old and more broken.. leading to the same problems onlyworse when you eat carbs.
Anecdotally, have you ever noticed someone in your life that seems likethey are always lean and never have issues? Watch how they eat carbs...they always seem to have higher carb intakes.

As far as agmatine...not sure how that plays into this. Seems like it should help manage blood sugar but I don't know beyond that at the moment.
 
GreenMachineX

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The truth is no, I haven’t noticed that. People that I know that are just lean all the time, just don’t eat nearly as much as I do in general. And we won’t agree on the “to keto or not to keto” debate. 😂

Tonight’s experiment will be 600mcg time release melatonin and 5mg regular melatonin all at bed time. I’m also using 360mg magnesium malate during the day and just 120mg magnesium glycinate to see if that makes a difference, as opposed to all 480mg magnesium coming from mag glycinate. Tomorrow the ZMA arrives.
 
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HIT4ME

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The truth is no, I haven’t noticed that. People that I know that are just lean all the time, just don’t eat nearly as much as I do in general. And we won’t agree on the “to keto or not to keto” debate. 😂

Tonight’s experiment will be 600mcg time release melatonin and 5mg regular melatonin all at bed time. I’m also using 360mg magnesium malate during the day and just 120mg magnesium glycinate to see if that makes a difference, as opposed to all 480mg magnesium coming from mag glycinate. Tomorrow the ZMA arrives.
Yeah, not saying the laws of thermodynamics don't apply...not even saying don't do keto. I am just pointing out that part of the pathology behind obesity, as an example, is elevated Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Kinase. This is the enzyme that acts as a switch between fat burning and carbohydrate burning as a source for fuel. Elevated PDK switches on fat burning and reduces your ability to burn carbohydrate.

Being obese elevates PDK. Starvation elevates PDK. Low carb imitates starvation and elevates PDK. Really any caloric deficit will elevate PDK to a degree, but starvation the most and keto the second most.

So, part of the issue with fat people that makes them unhealthy is that they burn fat more than carbs.

Keto is great because it avoids that issue...the fact that you cannot burn carbs efficiently no longer matters of you don't have any carbs to burn.

But it also elevates PDK and makes the underlying issue worse.

So keto has a place, but correcting the underlying issue at some point would probably be healthier.
 
GreenMachineX

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Yeah, not saying the laws of thermodynamics don't apply...not even saying don't do keto. I am just pointing out that part of the pathology behind obesity, as an example, is elevated Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Kinase. This is the enzyme that acts as a switch between fat burning and carbohydrate burning as a source for fuel. Elevated PDK switches on fat burning and reduces your ability to burn carbohydrate.

Being obese elevates PDK. Starvation elevates PDK. Low carb imitates starvation and elevates PDK. Really any caloric deficit will elevate PDK to a degree, but starvation the most and keto the second most.

So, part of the issue with fat people that makes them unhealthy is that they burn fat more than carbs.

Keto is great because it avoids that issue...the fact that you cannot burn carbs efficiently no longer matters of you don't have any carbs to burn.

But it also elevates PDK and makes the underlying issue worse.

So keto has a place, but correcting the underlying issue at some point would probably be healthier.
How do you correct that issue?
 
HIT4ME

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How do you correct that issue?
Not really sure other than maybe getting super lean and then switching to a carb based diet so that your body has very limited fat to burn and is forced to drop PDK.

The classic PDK inhibitor is dichloroacetate, which is used for cancer research and maybe it has a role.

Dichloroacetate, of course is a di-chlorinated form of acetic acid (vinegar) and this may be a chemical reason diabetics and hoards of internet people claim that vinegar lowers blood sugar and causes weight loss - it may be a mild inhibitor of PDK which turns down fat burning and turns up carb burning.
 
GreenMachineX

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Update:
5mg instant melatonin and 600mcg time release melatonin, 360mg magnesium malate during day and 200mg mag glycinate before bed. But I also had a lot more carbs at lunch and dinner. 1 cup of oats at both meals, about 30g carbs from pretzels both meals, but also 24g palatinose with lunch and 1tbsp raw honey with dinner. Slept really well from 11pm to 5:30am. Not long enough but definitely better and on the right track. I plan on using the same amount of melatonin tonight, ZMA full dose before bed, and much less carbs (total maybe 100g or so). I also added 30mg opti-zinc at dinner last night since I didn’t have the ZMA yet. Lots of factors to rule out.
 
HIT4ME

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Update:
5mg instant melatonin and 600mcg time release melatonin, 360mg magnesium malate during day and 200mg mag glycinate before bed. But I also had a lot more carbs at lunch and dinner. 1 cup of oats at both meals, about 30g carbs from pretzels both meals, but also 24g palatinose with lunch and 1tbsp raw honey with dinner. Slept really well from 11pm to 5:30am. Not long enough but definitely better and on the right track. I plan on using the same amount of melatonin tonight, ZMA full dose before bed, and much less carbs (total maybe 100g or so). I also added 30mg opti-zinc at dinner last night since I didn’t have the ZMA yet. Lots of factors to rule out.
Are you still in a caloric deficit during all this? Just checking. Also, are you using 200 mg of magnesium from Mag Glycinate, or 200 mg of mag glycinate? I believe 200 mg of magnesium would require about 1.1 grams of actual magnesium glycinate.

It sounds like you're on the right path, I hope this continues and you get to a better place here. It has been interesting and I know I've learned a couple things that may be helpful, even though I don't have overt sleep issues..
 
GreenMachineX

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Are you still in a caloric deficit during all this? Just checking. Also, are you using 200 mg of magnesium from Mag Glycinate, or 200 mg of mag glycinate? I believe 200 mg of magnesium would require about 1.1 grams of actual magnesium glycinate.

It sounds like you're on the right path, I hope this continues and you get to a better place here. It has been interesting and I know I've learned a couple things that may be helpful, even though I don't have overt sleep issues..
Just barely in a deficit yesterday, but today should be more like 500 kcal short. But, on second thought, I may just do exactly what I did yesterday as far as macros go and just switch to ZMA, and drop the time release to 300mcg with the 5mg regular melatonin. Even 600mcg time release left me groggy today.

And yeah, when I refer to any dose of magnesium, I’m always referring to elemental magnesium.

And I appreciate all the help!
 
GreenMachineX

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1 more update:
Apparently I’ve been miscalculating my macros pretty hard lol. It all could simply have to do with kcal being too low I guess too. Today will be about 175g protein, 150 carbs, and 120g fat, which is what yesterday was (or close to it) and that worked pretty well. We’ll see what this does.
 
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Last night: 3mg regular melatonin and 300mcg time release melatonin, ZMA, 100mg theanine right at bed. Forgot the honey at dinner time, but still ate probably 150g carbs between lunch and dinner. Slept from 11pm to 2am, took another 3mg melatonin, slept until 4am, then 5am, then 6am. The first couple blocks of sleep were deep enough that the frequent wakings later don’t seem to matter yet, but still not adequate.
 
GreenMachineX

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Update:
5mg instant release melatonin and ZMA last night. Friday night pizza as well but also had 48g palatinose around my workout which had a lot of positive effects on my workout, and I slept really great last night. Still only got 6.5 hours but actually feel recovered and I’m not sore at all amazingly enough. Lots of dreams and even morning wood lol. I’ll keep up with higher instant release melatonin, ZMA and increased fructose consumption from either palatinose or honey for a while. And no drowsiness because I skipped the time release melatonin. 🤘
 
HIT4ME

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Sounds like you are on the right paths. It is interesting to note that your pizza nights 2 weeks in a row led to good sleep...Maybe pizza is the secret to good sleep? Maybe someone is slipping drugs in your pizza? :)
 
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update: so after a few more experiments, I can sleep great with magnesium glycinate or ZMA. I can also sleep great with only 5mg melatonin instant release right at bed time with minimal hangover. But, it seems like I need a minimum of 120g carbs a day to sleep well, and I think it’s a reflection of liver glycogen status because I do just a little better with a little something that has fructose like honey or palatinose. Now to make sure I’m low calorie with those 120g carbs and see how I sleep.
 
HIT4ME

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update: so after a few more experiments, I can sleep great with magnesium glycinate or ZMA. I can also sleep great with only 5mg melatonin instant release right at bed time with minimal hangover. But, it seems like I need a minimum of 120g carbs a day to sleep well, and I think it’s a reflection of liver glycogen status because I do just a little better with a little something that has fructose like honey or palatinose. Now to make sure I’m low calorie with those 120g carbs and see how I sleep.
Read the links I posted above - it likely has to do with the insulin spike increasing your seratonin levels. You may be able to get by on even fewer carbs, possible, if you get a good spike and time it right. i.e. eat a meal with high fructose/very low protein.
 
GreenMachineX

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Read the links I posted above - it likely has to do with the insulin spike increasing your seratonin levels. You may be able to get by on even fewer carbs, possible, if you get a good spike and time it right. i.e. eat a meal with high fructose/very low protein.
So, I’m going to go back keto tomorrow, and try the massive dose of instant release melatonin right at bed time with ZMA and see how that goes. I have to fit in some extra nice clothes next week that are a bit tight now and keto will get me in them ASAP lol.
 
HIT4ME

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So, I’m going to go back keto tomorrow, and try the massive dose of instant release melatonin right at bed time with ZMA and see how that goes. I have to fit in some extra nice clothes next week that are a bit tight now and keto will get me in them ASAP lol.
I missed this ...updates aren't always reliable I guess. How are things going?
 
Outofbody

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Green Machine, I think I’ve got my insomnia sorted out now, and I’m not even using MJ anymore. I’ve been using two scoops of that EAA Sleep product, along with 1G of phenibut, and I’m sleeping solid all night, only getting up once to pee, then waking up super refreshed in the mornings. It’s been some time since I’ve felt this good in the mornings. (I’m taking weekends off from the phenibut fwiw)
 
GreenMachineX

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I missed this ...updates aren't always reliable I guess. How are things going?
I figured mine out too. It is likely low blood sugar in the middle of the night. So I got to the point of depleted glycogen and subsequent insomnia (adrenaline surges), and eating a few tbsp of natty pb with 2 tbsp regular butter right before bed and I sleep great, even without melatonin! 😎
 

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