Unanswered Dieting Insomnia

GreenMachineX

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As I’ve mentioned several times before, I’m prone to terminal insomnia (waking at 2am and unable to go back asleep for example, and the few hours I am asleep are useless/restless). But, I’ve come to the conclusion that one of my triggers is a hypocaloric diet. If my calories drop under maintenance even by 100-200, it happens. This occurs with high Carb, low carb, keto, etc. the higher my kcal are, the better I sleep. So on pizza/wing night on the weekend, I sleep great lol.

Megadoses of CBD is costing too much, timed release melatonin even at 10mg only works marginally, magnesium glycinate only helps for an hour. Anyone have an idea of what pathway is doing this so I can actually help the cause and not just a symptom?
 

_Endure_

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Try some raw unfiltered honey before bed straight or in a tea. Keeps glycogen stores in the brain/liver stable through the night which can otherwise trigger wakefulness as you mention.
 
HIT4ME

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I can think of a couple things I would look at - do you measure your blood sugar? Track it. See what it is before bed and if/when you wake up at night. Maybe your blood sugar levels drop?

Also, dieting I think would increase AMPK, which has a role in sleep cycles. Do you do a lot of exercise or take supplements that might increase ampk (like berberine?)

This is interesting. A quick search reveals this comes up a lot on various forums, but I didn't find an answer. It would be interesting to figure out.
 
SFreed

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Can't help you, but I also have had sleep issues since I was young. In for info
 
ValiantThor08

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As I’ve mentioned several times before, I’m prone to terminal insomnia (waking at 2am and unable to go back asleep for example, and the few hours I am asleep are useless/restless). But, I’ve come to the conclusion that one of my triggers is a hypocaloric diet. If my calories drop under maintenance even by 100-200, it happens. This occurs with high Carb, low carb, keto, etc. the higher my kcal are, the better I sleep. So on pizza/wing night on the weekend, I sleep great lol.

Megadoses of CBD is costing too much, timed release melatonin even at 10mg only works marginally, magnesium glycinate only helps for an hour. Anyone have an idea of what pathway is doing this so I can actually help the cause and not just a symptom?
Are you taking Kratom, Benedryl or other sleep aids?
 
ValiantThor08

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I’ve experimented with some different ones; no kratom as it’s addicting for me and no Benedetto because well, it’s Benadryl lol.
Good. I dont recommend those as daily sleep aids. Will screw the sleep cycle.
 
GreenMachineX

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Good. I dont recommend those as daily sleep aids. Will screw the sleep cycle.
I’ve experimented with valerian, lemon balm, melatonin (instant and time release), glycine, mag glycinate, megadose cbd, high carb, low carb, super high fat...not sure what to do next.

When I’m in a caloric surplus or maintenance, I sleep just ok.
 
Outofbody

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I've always had sleep issues since I was young. I now keep a hammer next to my bed in the form of a thc vape pen.
 
GreenMachineX

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I've always had sleep issues since I was young. I now keep a hammer next to my bed in the form of a thc vape pen.
Yeah, I’m moving away from cbd though because of potential career change requiring drug testing.
 
Outofbody

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Yeah, I’m moving away from cbd though because of potential career change requiring drug testing.
Oh whoops, that’s right. Must be the weed effecting me haha.. Man that’s unfortunate. I can’t live without it for sleep. It’s part of my evening ritual. Hope you can find a good alternative.
 
Martyfnemec

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In to learn the secret to sleep!
 

_Endure_

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Try some raw unfiltered honey before bed straight or in a tea. Keeps glycogen stores in the brain/liver stable through the night which can otherwise trigger wakefulness as you mention.
Quoting myself from above... absolutely worth a try. It's been proven and used by many including myself at times. Not saying it's absolutely 100% sure shot for you but it's easy and entirely natural.
 
GreenMachineX

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Quoting myself from above... absolutely worth a try. It's been proven and used by many including myself at times. Not saying it's absolutely 100% sure shot for you but it's easy and entirely natural.
How many tablespoons?
 
delsolrob

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delsolrob

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also, how is your stress level? this could be cortisol related
 

mastah

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same problem here tried about everything... melatonin,benadryl,magnesium glycinate + zinc , phenibut , cbd , ksm-66 and many more..

ksm-66 (600mg) feels like its helping abit
phenibut works great but using it MAX 2 times a week (600mg)
benadryl works "ok" but trying to limit it aswell only 1-2 times a week(25mg)
melatonin nothing (3-6mg)
cbd nothing(15-20mg 5-15%)
magnesium glycinate feels alittle more relaxed but cant say its helping me with the sleep(2g)
 
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HIT4ME

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I have said this elsewhere and I am a bit of a convert just because I never, for almost 40 years, thought caffeine had hardly any effect on me - until I totally cut it out a little over a month ago. Decaf coffee. No energy drinks, caffeine as close to 0 as possible.

Before doing this I was constantly exhausted, could barely drag myself out of bed at 7:30 every morning and was exhausted by 1 PM.

I never thought I would have so much more energy with no caffeine. I sleep way better, fall asleep just a little earlier and can wake up between 5-6 without an alarm clock.

It has had a much bigger impact on the quality of my life then I would have ever expected.
 
GreenMachineX

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Thanks everyone.

As far as high cortisol, I doubt it, but don’t really know. I’ve had several cortisol AM blood tests and all were within range (a bit on the lower side) and had a saliva cortisol blood test 4 collection and all showed low end of normal results. I haven’t had 1 actually at 3am when I’m awakened and maybe I should. The other thing is any adaptogen that reduces cortisol like ashwagandha, holy basil, tongkat, Icariin, etc give me all similar side effects (achy, ectopic heart beats, achy, etc). What’s even more interesting is when using those then using CBD, the CBD knocks me down with unbearable lethargy, brain fog, and other effects not conducive to living life 😂. I can only assume that my cortisol just naturally runs low and dropping it further causes issues. This also makes me wonder if the awakenings are adrenaline because cortisol is too low.

Also, when on a normal/hypercaloric diet, 480mg magnesium glycinate, 600mcg time release melatonin, and 2 doses of 200mg theanine gives me good enough sleep. I’ve experimented with differing amounts of melatonin and the more I take the harder I sleep but then drag for hours the next day. 300-600mcg time release seems to do me fairly well with only a small amount of next day side effects. But, when keto, I need 6mg time release melatonin, everything above and >75mg CBD to sleep fairly well.

I definitely agree with caffeine causing issues that we all don’t realize, but I’ve done caffeine detoxes for months here and there over the past few years and didn’t help.
 
HIT4ME

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Thanks everyone.

As far as high cortisol, I doubt it, but don’t really know. I’ve had several cortisol AM blood tests and all were within range (a bit on the lower side) and had a saliva cortisol blood test 4 collection and all showed low end of normal results. I haven’t had 1 actually at 3am when I’m awakened and maybe I should. The other thing is any adaptogen that reduces cortisol like ashwagandha, holy basil, tongkat, Icariin, etc give me all similar side effects (achy, ectopic heart beats, achy, etc). What’s even more interesting is when using those then using CBD, the CBD knocks me down with unbearable lethargy, brain fog, and other effects not conducive to living life 😂. I can only assume that my cortisol just naturally runs low and dropping it further causes issues. This also makes me wonder if the awakenings are adrenaline because cortisol is too low.

Also, when on a normal/hypercaloric diet, 480mg magnesium glycinate, 600mcg time release melatonin, and 2 doses of 200mg theanine gives me good enough sleep. I’ve experimented with differing amounts of melatonin and the more I take the harder I sleep but then drag for hours the next day. 300-600mcg time release seems to do me fairly well with only a small amount of next day side effects. But, when keto, I need 6mg time release melatonin, everything above and >75mg CBD to sleep fairly well.

I definitely agree with caffeine causing issues that we all don’t realize, but I’ve done caffeine detoxes for months here and there over the past few years and didn’t help.
How much Vitamin D do you take?

Also, have these caffeine detoxes coincided with dieting? I know I often use caffeine to suppress appetite during diets, and caffeine does have an effect on AMPK.

Kind of a negative test, but you could try taking some Berberine and see if it effects sleep at all, since it's a strong AMPK inducer.
 
GreenMachineX

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How much Vitamin D do you take?

Also, have these caffeine detoxes coincided with dieting? I know I often use caffeine to suppress appetite during diets, and caffeine does have an effect on AMPK.

Kind of a negative test, but you could try taking some Berberine and see if it effects sleep at all, since it's a strong AMPK inducer.
Right now I’m alternating days between 6,000iu and 11,000iu vitamin D, and that keeps my levels about 50. 6,000iu keeps it around 30ish during winter months so I had to go up to 11,000iu until this summer when I started alternating. 11,000iu daily in June had me at 75. I’ll be bumping back to 11,000iu daily soon.

I’ve been on and off caffeine dieting and not dieting. Hasn’t made any difference really.
Are you saying berberine would help or hurt sleep? I don’t quite understand.
 
HIT4ME

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Right now I’m alternating days between 6,000iu and 11,000iu vitamin D, and that keeps my levels about 50. 6,000iu keeps it around 30ish during winter months so I had to go up to 11,000iu until this summer when I started alternating. 11,000iu daily in June had me at 75. I’ll be bumping back to 11,000iu daily soon.

I’ve been on and off caffeine dieting and not dieting. Hasn’t made any difference really.
Are you saying berberine would help or hurt sleep? I don’t quite understand.
Berberine induces AMPK - I am hypothesizing that increased AMPK may be part of the issue - so it may hurt. It is a pretty strong inducer, so if you took it and then you suddenly couldn't sleep, while it wouldn't be a smoking gun, it would point in a certain direction.
 
HIT4ME

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How lean are you? Do you do a lot of lower- to moderate- intensity exercise?
 
GreenMachineX

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Berberine induces AMPK - I am hypothesizing that increased AMPK may be part of the issue - so it may hurt. It is a pretty strong inducer, so if you took it and then you suddenly couldn't sleep, while it wouldn't be a smoking gun, it would point in a certain direction.
Gotcha. Ampk is an interesting angle. And you may be onto something. DCP, even while not keto/hypocaloric, does it as well even taken early afternoon. DCP’s effect is as strong as deep keto as well which jolts me awake numerous times all night.
How lean are you? Do you do a lot of lower- to moderate- intensity exercise?
Not lean, 20% bf maybe? The only exercise I do is full body compound lifts 3 times per week, with a little accessory/machine work at the end. Squats/bench/rows/deads/pull-ups twice per week.
 
Outofbody

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same problem here tried about everything... melatonin,benadryl,magnesium glycinate + zinc , phenibut , cbd , ksm-66 and many more..

ksm-66 (600mg) feels like its helping abit
phenibut works great but using it MAX 2 times a week (600mg)
benadryl works "ok" but trying to limit it aswell only 1-2 times a week(25mg)
melatonin nothing (3-6mg)
cbd nothing(15-20mg 5-15%)
magnesium glycinate feels alittle more relaxed but cant say its helping me with the sleep(2g)
For me, phenibut @600mg is a daytime dose for anxiety or social anxiety if going out. Doesn't make me sleepy at all. I personally need 1.5grams for sleep.

Benadryl doesn't work well enough for me, I prefer Hydroxyzine (prescription anti-histamine).

For magnesium, I prefer topical magnesium oil, as much as possible (tops of feet, legs, delts). Works very well for muscle cramps, and sleep.
 
GreenMachineX

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same problem here tried about everything... melatonin,benadryl,magnesium glycinate + zinc , phenibut , cbd , ksm-66 and many more..

ksm-66 (600mg) feels like its helping abit
phenibut works great but using it MAX 2 times a week (600mg)
benadryl works "ok" but trying to limit it aswell only 1-2 times a week(25mg)
melatonin nothing (3-6mg)
cbd nothing(15-20mg 5-15%)
magnesium glycinate feels alittle more relaxed but cant say its helping me with the sleep(2g)
Any idea how much elemental magnesium that is? I need 480mg elemental magnesium from magnesium glycinate of Pure Encapsulations to avoid deficiency. Soloray at 500mg elemental magnesium from glycinate doesn’t cut it. No idea why.
 
HIT4ME

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Gotcha. Ampk is an interesting angle. And you may be onto something. DCP, even while not keto/hypocaloric, does it as well even taken early afternoon. DCP’s effect is as strong as deep keto as well which jolts me awake numerous times all night.

Not lean, 20% bf maybe? The only exercise I do is full body compound lifts 3 times per week, with a little accessory/machine work at the end. Squats/bench/rows/deads/pull-ups twice per week.
OK, I was thinking if you were super lean and doing a lot of less-than-high intensity work, you may be building up a lot of AMP which would lead to high elevations of AMPK. The AMPK just stood out to me because a quick google search showed you are not alone in this phenomenon, lots of people seem to have poor sleep while hypocaloric. AMPK is elevated during dieting, and often we even take things to increase it more. And it is the type of pathway that has a lot of downstream effects and is sensitive to other highly regulated pathways - so it could be a sensitive switch where even a minor deficit could just turn it on.

One thing I would try is to take your blood glucose when you wake up if you have a meter too - trying to think of simpler angles.
 
HIT4ME

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Also, when you take melatonin, when do you take it? It seems to me that everyone takes it before bed and I hypothesize it may actually be better to take it earlier in the evening - especially your slow release version - to coincide with darkness.
 
GreenMachineX

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Also, when you take melatonin, when do you take it? It seems to me that everyone takes it before bed and I hypothesize it may actually be better to take it earlier in the evening - especially your slow release version - to coincide with darkness.
All great ideas and your right; I take the melatonin right before bed. I’ll back it up to 8 or 9pm tonight.
 

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Any idea how much elemental magnesium that is? I need 480mg elemental magnesium from magnesium glycinate of Pure Encapsulations to avoid deficiency. Soloray at 500mg elemental magnesium from glycinate doesn’t cut it. No idea why.
It's 18% , guess I can add some more then : )
 
Outofbody

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Also, when you take melatonin, when do you take it? It seems to me that everyone takes it before bed and I hypothesize it may actually be better to take it earlier in the evening - especially your slow release version - to coincide with darkness.
Yeah that's right, I take it around 8pm (go to bed around 10) and it seems to work better this way.
 
Outofbody

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Here's something I've been using lately. I use 1-2 scoops. My insomnia is really bad so lately I've been using 2 scoops successfully, about 2hrs before bed. I put it in my night time vanilla casein shake with some ice, blend it up, and it's super tasty. This one is a tropical lemonade flavor so it goes really well with the vanilla casein.
 
Outofbody

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I’m too concerned with cardiac issues from 5-htp.
The dose of 5-htp in this is fairly conservative, even at a double dose (200mg). I've read that standard dosing is 50-300mg daily. From what I've read, issues can only really occur if you take too much, on a longterm basis (for months or years).

If supplementing something to boost levels of seratonin, it would be smart to also supplement things to boost levels of dopamine, in the longterm.

5-HTP has been used safely in doses up to 400 mg daily for up to one year
 
GreenMachineX

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The dose of 5-htp in this is fairly conservative, even at a double dose (200mg). I've read that standard dosing is 50-300mg daily. From what I've read, issues can only really occur if you take too much, on a longterm basis (for months or years).

If supplementing something to boost levels of seratonin, it would be smart to also supplement things to boost levels of dopamine, in the longterm.
Yeah, I hear you, but just personally speaking, I’d prefer to go with tryptophan.
 
GreenMachineX

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Also, when you take melatonin, when do you take it? It seems to me that everyone takes it before bed and I hypothesize it may actually be better to take it earlier in the evening - especially your slow release version - to coincide with darkness.
Another melatonin update: taking enough melatonin (>3mg time release) gives me lots of dreams, deep sleep and morning wood 😂. But I wake up every hour without it. Last night took 4mg total of regular melatonin but 1-2mg at different times. Horrible sleep, up every hour, feel like I didn’t sleep at all today. I’ll have to try taking the whole 3mg time release dose at 8pm...

I also just remembered that I’ve tested the low blood sugar hypothesis by drinking a shake with 40g protein and 40g carbs from oats during one of my 2am wake ups and still never fell back asleep that day.

Any other thoughts?
 
Outofbody

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I'm still trying to find a good solution. With my sleep supps I'm taking now, they have me sleeping fine until about 3-4am where I spring up wide awake. I usually take a walk around my apartment, grab a drink and a few pulls from my vape then go back to bed, but if it's after 4am, I can't hit that vape without it effecting me in the mornings.
 
GreenMachineX

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I'm still trying to find a good solution. With my sleep supps I'm taking now, they have me sleeping fine until about 3-4am where I spring up wide awake. I usually take a walk around my apartment, grab a drink and a few pulls from my vape then go back to bed, but if it's after 4am, I can't hit that vape without it effecting me in the mornings.
Have you tried time release melatonin?
 
HIT4ME

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Another melatonin update: taking enough melatonin (>3mg time release) gives me lots of dreams, deep sleep and morning wood 😂. But I wake up every hour without it. Last night took 4mg total of regular melatonin but 1-2mg at different times. Horrible sleep, up every hour, feel like I didn’t sleep at all today. I’ll have to try taking the whole 3mg time release dose at 8pm...

I also just remembered that I’ve tested the low blood sugar hypothesis by drinking a shake with 40g protein and 40g carbs from oats during one of my 2am wake ups and still never fell back asleep that day.

Any other thoughts?
That isn't really a good test for the low blood sugar situation. The damage is already done by the time you've had the shake. The theory is that your blood sugar drops during sleep, enough to cause a cortisol release - as cortisol is necessary for the mobilization of fats, etc. to create more energy and elevate blood sugar - but cortisol is a powerful signaling hormone in the wake cycle - and this wakes you up. By the time you are awake, your cortisol is already elevated and it will take hours for it to go back down. The test is to get a $30 meter and strips and actually test your blood sugar when you wake up and see if you are hypo or not.

You take your own Mag Glycinate right? Do you add zinc and B6 to this? I would suggest taking the melatonin at 8 like you mention, and then take the Mag Glycinate, 25 mg of zinc and maybe 25-50 mg of P5P about 30 minutes before bed. I find that ZMA really helps keep me asleep once I am asleep, but doesn't have a lot of power to help me get to sleep necessarily.
 
HIT4ME

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Also, I haven't tried the timed release melatonin but I have taken it in doses up to about 15 mg/night for a couple months at a time. It has a lot of health benefits beyond sleep - and that is what I was going for.

Another thing I DID notice about melatonin that I can't explain is that it really appears that 300-500 mcg helps me with sleep much better than 2-3 mg does. Especially with latency. For straight sleep, a small dose may be better than a big dose.

Maybe one way to combat this if you want to try split dosing (although I hesitate to complicate things) is to take 3 mg. around 7-8 PM and then just take a 300 mcg pill before sleep. I still think just taking a bigger dose earlier on is better.

One last thing, I'm not positive time release really helps here either. Naturally, your body tends to release hormones in waves - not a little at a time, and then let them decline over hours. Getting a bigger dose in your blood all at once may actually be a more natural way of dealing with the problem.
 
GreenMachineX

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Also, I haven't tried the timed release melatonin but I have taken it in doses up to about 15 mg/night for a couple months at a time. It has a lot of health benefits beyond sleep - and that is what I was going for.

Another thing I DID notice about melatonin that I can't explain is that it really appears that 300-500 mcg helps me with sleep much better than 2-3 mg does. Especially with latency. For straight sleep, a small dose may be better than a big dose.

Maybe one way to combat this if you want to try split dosing (although I hesitate to complicate things) is to take 3 mg. around 7-8 PM and then just take a 300 mcg pill before sleep. I still think just taking a bigger dose earlier on is better.

One last thing, I'm not positive time release really helps here either. Naturally, your body tends to release hormones in waves - not a little at a time, and then let them decline over hours. Getting a bigger dose in your blood all at once may actually be a more natural way of dealing with the problem.
Gotcha. Thanks for the input. I have a meter and was thinking, going by what you just said, if cortisol spiked to wake me up, could it have already jumped it high enough by the time I test it so I wouldn’t be able to know how low it was previously? Hope that makes sense lol.
I’m almost positive I have tested my blood sugar at 4 or 5am before and never anything remarkable (70-80?), but never at the first wake up. Now here’s something else which makes me think it’s less likely to be blood sugar. On a really bad night during keto for example, I’ll start my wake up cycle after only 2 hours sleep and then it continues all night every hour until I’m finally just awake. This whole process is also worse on workout nights. Maybe I should invest in a cortisol saliva test for in the middle of the night...
 
GreenMachineX

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@HIT4ME
Also, fwiw, I have a horrible memory and I’m sure some of my responses in this thread (definitely in others) are contradictory. So, things I think I haven’t tried many times I actually have. I’m not FOS, I’m just not that bright 😂
 
HIT4ME

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Gotcha. Thanks for the input. I have a meter and was thinking, going by what you just said, if cortisol spiked to wake me up, could it have already jumped it high enough by the time I test it so I wouldn’t be able to know how low it was previously? Hope that makes sense lol.
I’m almost positive I have tested my blood sugar at 4 or 5am before and never anything remarkable (70-80?), but never at the first wake up. Now here’s something else which makes me think it’s less likely to be blood sugar. On a really bad night during keto for example, I’ll start my wake up cycle after only 2 hours sleep and then it continues all night every hour until I’m finally just awake. This whole process is also worse on workout nights. Maybe I should invest in a cortisol saliva test for in the middle of the night...
What you are saying makes sense and I believe you are right. I think the glucose test would be the minimal to figure out a trend - a cortisol test would be better.

I am not saying I am sold on the blood sugar thing either...just one thing to rule out.

I think it has more to do with some complicated signaling going on - that's why I pointed out the AMPK idea. Doing intense exercise, caloric restriction, ketosis - I believe all of these will lead to elevated AMPK levels.

Also, another angle here - do you use a lot of artificial sweeteners? I doubt this is the case as well, but interesting:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27411010

This is kind of an interesting problem and it sucks you can't get any good sleep.
 
HIT4ME

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You mentioned heart concerns - do you have a heart condition by any chance? Are you taking any prescriptions?

Really trying to figure this out...wondering if somehow you have some kind of adenosine depletion?
 
GreenMachineX

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You mentioned heart concerns - do you have a heart condition by any chance? Are you taking any prescriptions?

Really trying to figure this out...wondering if somehow you have some kind of adenosine depletion?
No actual heart condition, but I’m really susceptible to heart palpitations from a variety of causes. I take telmisartan 40mg, synthroid 125mcg and testosterone cypionate 100mg per week. What is adenosine depletion? Google isn’t telling me anything useful that I can see.

What you are saying makes sense and I believe you are right. I think the glucose test would be the minimal to figure out a trend - a cortisol test would be better.

I am not saying I am sold on the blood sugar thing either...just one thing to rule out.

I think it has more to do with some complicated signaling going on - that's why I pointed out the AMPK idea. Doing intense exercise, caloric restriction, ketosis - I believe all of these will lead to elevated AMPK levels.

Also, another angle here - do you use a lot of artificial sweeteners? I doubt this is the case as well, but interesting:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27411010

This is kind of an interesting problem and it sucks you can't get any good sleep.
No artificial sweeteners at all. In fact, the worst days of insomnia have foods like whole eggs, steak, spinach, cauliflower, broccoli, grilled chicken, lean burgers and oats. That’s literally it. You could be right about the blood sugar or cortisol. I’ll get more glucose strips.

I thought of something. About 1 or 2 years ago, I figured out I was b12 and folate deficient. Been struggling with symptoms of those for years. When I’m not taking adequate amounts, whether keto or not, I sleep HARD and can’t even get out of bed I’m so lethargic. I wonder if that’s somehow related...maybe taking too much b12 and that’s effecting other pathways...
 
HIT4ME

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What follows is far-fetched conjecture, just my own application of a bunch of different ideas and it may be way off:

Of course, we use adenosine to form adenosine triphosphate - ATP. We break down adenosine with an enzyme called adenosine deaminase. During the day, we are breaking down ATP and adenosine builds up in our tissues from the energy use. This makes it a perfect molecule for signaling a need for sleep. Once it builds to a high enough level in our brains, we get sleepy. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist - it blocks the action of adenosine and thus keeps us awake.

Once we are asleep, adenosine deaminase starts clearing out the built up adenosine, and it falls throughout the night (relatively quickly actually) and this creates a better environment for wakefulness.

Adenosine has an effect on every tissue in the body, and often contradictory effects because there are 4 different receptors and these receptors have different affinities, different tissues have different densities and distributions of these receptors, etc. This means that while adenosine may make our brains sleepy in general, too much can also be excitory.

So, for instance, when you have a certain level of adenosine in a certain area of the brain it will activate the A2a receptors (going from memory, the sub receptor may be wrong) because these receptors are abundant and have a higher affinity for adenosine - but if adenosine becomes so elevated that all these receptors are full, you will start activating the A1 receptors in this section of the brain with the remaining adenosine and this will have the opposite effect.

So, too high or too low and you may have seemingly paradoxical effects.

There is a heart connection as well because A2a agonists induce sleep, but also have negative effects on heart tissue (which is why we don't use them for insomnia).

Adenosine is also, again obviously, a major component of Adenosine Monophosphate (AMP) which builds in cells during energy usage (exercise, dieting, etc.) and we eliminate this with AMPK. Just for the connection.

So, I'm not sure if there is actually any genetic "disease" or clinical situation where some people might have lower levels of adenosine from dieting, or higher levels of adenosine deaminase - but it may play a role.

I did find this: https://www.pnas.org/content/102/43/15676

Perhaps you run low on adenosine early in the night - either because you have low levels of adenosine or because you have high levels of adenosine deaminase that clear it out quickly?

Not really sure what to do to test it...as I'm just thinking out loud here...but maybe those ideas create more discussion? I could be wrong as well about some of it...

As far as the B12 - do you take methylated formulations? I was wondering if you might have issues utilizing some forms of B vitamins - which is why I suggested the P5P for the ZMA formulations....

I'm really not sure what this is, but you're not the only person who claims they get insomnia from caloric deficits and I think most people write it off as "hunger is waking you up" or discomfort - but I'm not sure there isn't a chemical pathway underlying it all.
 
GreenMachineX

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What follows is far-fetched conjecture, just my own application of a bunch of different ideas and it may be way off:

Of course, we use adenosine to form adenosine triphosphate - ATP. We break down adenosine with an enzyme called adenosine deaminase. During the day, we are breaking down ATP and adenosine builds up in our tissues from the energy use. This makes it a perfect molecule for signaling a need for sleep. Once it builds to a high enough level in our brains, we get sleepy. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist - it blocks the action of adenosine and thus keeps us awake.

Once we are asleep, adenosine deaminase starts clearing out the built up adenosine, and it falls throughout the night (relatively quickly actually) and this creates a better environment for wakefulness.

Adenosine has an effect on every tissue in the body, and often contradictory effects because there are 4 different receptors and these receptors have different affinities, different tissues have different densities and distributions of these receptors, etc. This means that while adenosine may make our brains sleepy in general, too much can also be excitory.

So, for instance, when you have a certain level of adenosine in a certain area of the brain it will activate the A2a receptors (going from memory, the sub receptor may be wrong) because these receptors are abundant and have a higher affinity for adenosine - but if adenosine becomes so elevated that all these receptors are full, you will start activating the A1 receptors in this section of the brain with the remaining adenosine and this will have the opposite effect.

So, too high or too low and you may have seemingly paradoxical effects.

There is a heart connection as well because A2a agonists induce sleep, but also have negative effects on heart tissue (which is why we don't use them for insomnia).

Adenosine is also, again obviously, a major component of Adenosine Monophosphate (AMP) which builds in cells during energy usage (exercise, dieting, etc.) and we eliminate this with AMPK. Just for the connection.

So, I'm not sure if there is actually any genetic "disease" or clinical situation where some people might have lower levels of adenosine from dieting, or higher levels of adenosine deaminase - but it may play a role.

I did find this: https://www.pnas.org/content/102/43/15676

Perhaps you run low on adenosine early in the night - either because you have low levels of adenosine or because you have high levels of adenosine deaminase that clear it out quickly?

Not really sure what to do to test it...as I'm just thinking out loud here...but maybe those ideas create more discussion? I could be wrong as well about some of it...

As far as the B12 - do you take methylated formulations? I was wondering if you might have issues utilizing some forms of B vitamins - which is why I suggested the P5P for the ZMA formulations....

I'm really not sure what this is, but you're not the only person who claims they get insomnia from caloric deficits and I think most people write it off as "hunger is waking you up" or discomfort - but I'm not sure there isn't a chemical pathway underlying it all.
Interesting stuff. What would the treatment be for the adenosine depletion theory?

Tomorrow I’m going to take half the multi with methylated b’s and see if that makes a difference. Ftr, it’s been hell getting to a decently stable place with my micronutrients. To feel well throughout the day and avoid deficiency symptoms, I need some methylated b12, but that causes “induced folate deficiency” symptoms like angular cheilitis, other mouth sores, nails stop growing, wounds/cuts take forever to heal, etc. I have to take an extra 200-400mcg methylfolate and eat an extra 400mcg folate from food (egg lands best eggs and spinach) to keep symptoms away, as well as needing to eat the spinach plus extra vegetables all day long to prevent palpitations which I think are from induced potassium deficiency. It’s been a hell the past 2 years figuring all this out with a couple ER trips throughout because I didn’t know what was happening with the potassium deficiency craziness and other stuff. Wild ride 😂

Also, for the record, I don’t sleep great even eating in a surplus...just better. Still sucks.
 

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