dang, why did andromass get such bad reviews?

ive never heard of anyone getting caught with ph's and getting in trouble (ones that arent currently banned)

i HAVE heard of people getting caught with serms and getting possession of a controlled substance... it would be like having a bunch of vicoden without a prescription.

ive also heard of people getting in trouble after ordering them when they get to your door, but i havent heard of that happening to anyone i know/know of so i cant really call it.


either way, im not ordering a serm. IF i decide to run AH or AM with the TRS and get gyno, then that sucks for me
 
T-Bone said:
The TRS from PP isn't toxic to your liver like SERMS are. Not a lot of people research what SERMS actually are and how the can damage your body, just willy-nilly taking some "research chem" purchased over the internet produced probably is someones dirty "lab" basement with no regard for sanitation. Yeah sign me up!. I'm tough and over 200 pounds like all my friends I hand out with!.

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SERMS have more clinical studies available about their affects (in both men and women) then any other chemical we are discussing.. How can you even say this?

Also, the Research Chems are all made in China (the same place most of the worlds apples are grown.) No one is making it in their basement.. Are you confusing Tren with Nolva?

K-
 
bill86 said:
ive never heard of anyone getting caught with ph's and getting in trouble (ones that arent currently banned)

i HAVE heard of people getting caught with serms and getting possession of a controlled substance... it would be like having a bunch of vicoden without a prescription.

ive also heard of people getting in trouble after ordering them when they get to your door, but i havent heard of that happening to anyone i know/know of so i cant really call it.


either way, im not ordering a serm. IF i decide to run AH or AM with the TRS and get gyno, then that sucks for me
Click to expand...

They got in trouble because they were idiots.. Not because they had it.. Otherwise there would be no distributors.. Do what you want but, look at the controlled substance act you want to talk about.. Vicodin is on it.. Tomoxifen is not.. You are so mixing up different acts that control prescription distribution it is not even funny. Educate yourself first.. Then make a decision..

Also, the Nolva isn't for the gyno so much as it is PCT which is restoring your natural test levels.. If you don't know that then you are definately not going to want to run anything until you catch-up on what a cycle actually is.. and what it does to your natural test..
 
bill86 said:
from what ive read, there havent been sufficient studies in men
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It is safe in humans and has been researched as such.. I have read many.. I am not going to do your research for you.. but.. here is one to get you started..

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i never said it wasnt safe in humans, but they DO have side effects as ANY prescription drug would, and i said studies on men, specifically.
 
bill86 said:
i never said it wasnt safe in humans, but they DO have side effects as ANY prescription drug would, and i said studies on men, specifically.
Click to expand...

Asparin has side effects as well.. So do the PHs we are discussing.. The main one being shutting down your natural Testosterone production. You might as well consider them a prescription drug and stay away from them as well.. And here is a quote from that article.. Not sure where you were reading.. Research man.. There are several more now.. And you can actually find the below research paper that goes into further detail on the side effects, etc. It is not even worth arguing that SERMS are well researched and safe.. I honestly don't care if you use them or not.. I just want you to make an educated decision.. Or not, doesn't affect me..

"
But Dr. Khosla’s team conducted the first study of a SERM in men, and their findings were significant: The drug, called Raloxifene, had protective effects on bone without feminizing side effects.

"
 
BigBlackGuy said:
AMS=1/4 the price and 1/10 the active ingredient.

Assuming you men the forerunner lab product?
Click to expand...

Different carrier system however, could make the active ingredient... welll....more active : )
 
BigBlackGuy said:
Why compound side effects then if you can avoid it?
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For me, you cannot avoid them.. Some people don't use SERMS for PCT but I have found that using them versus an AI brings back your natural test production quicker.. To each there own, we are all going to recover at some time.. hopefully.. I will be using GNRH on my next cycle which may make all of this obsolete..
Additionally, SERMS are far more tested than any of these AIs available on the supp market.. So if you want to talk about side effects, at least we know the ones with SERMS..
 
bill86 said:
either way, im not ordering a serm. IF i decide to run AH or AM with the TRS and get gyno, then that sucks for me
Click to expand...

Just go with your plan. I sincerely doubt you will get gyno stacking those two together, especially since Androhard acts as an A.I. no need to use a SERM for a cycle like this...plus you can ask anyone around about stacking the sustain and tcf-1 that **** will have you shaking the paint can like no other
 
vpower said:
Just go with your plan. I sincerely doubt you will get gyno stacking those two together, especially since Androhard acts as an A.I. no need to use a SERM for a cycle like this...plus you can ask anyone around about stacking the sustain and tcf-1 that **** will have you shaking the paint can like no other
Click to expand...

This will seriously be my last post in this thread as you cannot convince everyone to research and think before they talk.. Where is the research/clinical trials on the actives in sustain and TCF-1? I am sure they are safer than a SERM.. But am I? I have heard that, but do I know? I have seen similar AIs researched, but does that apply to all? Is there a difference between Nolva and Clomid side effects? Additionally, the SERM isn't so much for Gyno as it is for recovery.. The way I am talking anyways.. It can also be used for Gyno..

Thanks everyone for the conversation anyway.. I am out..

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K-
 
vpower said:
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http://anabolicminds.com/forum/primordial-performance/110529-sustain-alpha-blood.html
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Here are a few i collected, took all of .04422 seconds on google to find. I wouldnt recommend it if I didnt swear by it, theres a lot of garbage out there to suggest taking without evidence of it working. Anyhow anyone thats interested, there ya go^
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Those are clinical studies of the safety? Come on.. These are blood results that are only testing for a few things.. And interpreted by who? See my link above which has actual scientific data.. your .04422 second search result was useless.. I have to quit posting.. you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink..
 
bubsnt3 said:
Those are clinical studies of the safety? Come on.. These are blood results that are only testing for a few things.. And interpreted by who? See my link above which has actual scientific data.. your .04422 second search result was useless.. I have to quit posting.. you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink..
Click to expand...

If you got a plane to catch, I am not going to stop you. To the OP, sorry to hijack your thread, I was just bringing to the table the effects of what you are taking. Good stuff BTW :) looking forward to hearing about your cycle
 
bubsnt3 said:
Asparin has side effects as well.. So do the PHs we are discussing.. The main one being shutting down your natural Testosterone production. You might as well consider them a prescription drug and stay away from them as well.. And here is a quote from that article.. Not sure where you were reading.. Research man.. There are several more now.. And you can actually find the below research paper that goes into further detail on the side effects, etc. It is not even worth arguing that SERMS are well researched and safe.. I honestly don't care if you use them or not.. I just want you to make an educated decision.. Or not, doesn't affect me..

"
But Dr. Khosla’s team conducted the first study of a SERM in men, and their findings were significant: The drug, called Raloxifene, had protective effects on bone without feminizing side effects.

"
Click to expand...

EXACTLY... im trying to have as few sides and interactions as possible... it's my personal preference and my personal worries, no matter how unfounded they may seem to you. i know there have been studies on men, but there havent been ENOUGH is what im saying. if you took the serm to get big and the ph to recover id be saying the same thing about the ph... i dont like the idea of putting these types of things in my body, so at this point its a greater of the two evils (im nearing the end of my natural road after 8+ years and modifications of my diet and training, im not just jumping into this willy nilly), and if i can get away without using one (which, from what i can tell based on THIS ph, not superdrol or anything like that, but the androseries in particular) im going to go for that.

FURTHER... i cannot comment on all my 'stories' of peoples serms getting intercepted and them getting in trouble because theyre mostly hearsay, but i HAVE heard of someone in particular getting caught with teslac after being pulled over and charged with possession of a controlled substance. now that might be outside the realm of serms as we know them like clomid, nolva, etc, but it still remains a bit of a gray area, ... but i dont want my name on a list of some underground website selling 'research chemicals' even if its a 0.01% chance i get caught if **** hits the fan. IF by some SMALL chance i were to get caught and kicked out of law school, owing the gov't 10's of 1000's of dollars in loans, id kill myself.... so why risk it? especially over something like AH, AM, or epi, none of which would be ran longer than 4 weeks?


ps - sorry, i forgot the posters name, but i wasnt even planning on running AH/AM together, i wanted to run AH first to get a feel for it and have a little recomp before next summer. if i like it, and like the way my body responds, then id shoot for AM. once i get some money and start the cycle (itll be a while), ill definitely keep you posted!
 
btw - i only mentioned gyno because its the only side effect i havent heard anything on with regard to the androseries... EVERYTHING ive read from everyone whose posted a log using the trs stack say that they 'recovered' and by 'recovered' i mean they kept all their size and strength, and some even continued gains throughout pct..... for me.... and flame all you want..... the ONLY thing that matters with regard to 'recovery' is whether or not you keep what youve worked for, youre libido is intact, and you dont have gyno.. not what a blood test shows.... so what if youre supressed a little on paper with all of the above? it will come back sooner than later, and if youre seeing no adverse effects, i dont really see why it matters... im at point where im making so few gains even with adding more meals, watching macros, and changing my routine that im almost stagnant. if i could gain size/strength on AM, then be a bit supressed (on paper) and become stagnant again for a month or so after the cycle (keeping everything i gained on cycle intact), what have i really lost?
 
This theard is funny. It can takes months to stabilize your hormones without proper PCT. When did bodybuilders forget how to run a steroid cycle? Brb, testing some new compound someone said was great.

Seriously though, it doesn't even matter, I am sure TF-1 and sustain alpha are great. I did LOL at some of your posts though bill.. for as concerned as you are about taking something because of side-effects, you sure don't seem to care about having a healthy hormonal balance which is probably worse for your body then any of it.
 
Years ago no one did run a pct. PCT is to bring you back into homeostasis quicker. The object is to bring you natural levels of testosterone back to what they were pre-cycle. There are many other products on the market designed to do this, even some that are considered natural "SERMS". So I don't see the why the big argument for using research chems.
 
I would guess human clinical trials to back their effectiveness, the fact that anyone who has been bodybuilding in the last 20 years has used them so they have a track record, and the fact that none of these so-called miracle products really have any legitimate testing on their affects outside of their test boosting ability (which is slower than a SERM which begins acting imediately and some actually stimulate release in the hypothalamus)

I think the question is: Why the big argument that something else is better/as good? I was shocked to see a BBing site actually having this conversation. But I suppose the supplement companies have to make money so they cannot say something that would send people to research chem suppliers.

That said, an OTC AI will work; just slower and not safety tested on humans.
 
nattydisaster said:
Dont judge a product based on its nutraplanet ratings.
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I agree, you never knwo whats up.
atleast people with some post history are worth a ****. but some random ratings usually dont mean **** at a shop.
i inno way support the androline so dont get the wrong impression. but i do agree atleast on the ratings issue on nutra and other shops.
even if it said it was highly rated on the shop that still wouldent mean anythign to me. do your researchon it thats your best bet.
 
bill86 said:
ive never heard of anyone getting caught with ph's and getting in trouble (ones that arent currently banned)

i HAVE heard of people getting caught with serms and getting possession of a controlled substance... it would be like having a bunch of vicoden without a prescription.

ive also heard of people getting in trouble after ordering them when they get to your door, but i havent heard of that happening to anyone i know/know of so i cant really call it.


either way, im not ordering a serm. IF i decide to run AH or AM with the TRS and get gyno, then that sucks for me
Click to expand...
you CAN order serms and sarms for "RESEARCH PEURPOSES ONLY", dont say its for you to take its for a cuzzins frind that works in a lab.
 
bill86 said:
i HAVE heard of people getting caught with serms and getting possession of a controlled substance... it would be like having a bunch of vicoden without a prescription.
Click to expand...
it IS NOT the same thing, vicoden would be a NARCOTIC without a script. your in BIG **** with this.
an Antibiotic or sarm with out a script WOULD NOT be treated the same, yes some sort of fine or penalty but NOT the same thing man.
 
bill86 said:
i just said ive seen logs with people who have recovered without a serm

a) being that im weary of putting a ph in my body, yes, im also weary about putting a prescription drug that's made for women that i find on the internet being sold as a 'research chemical' in my body. b) even more than that, im not trying to get in trouble ordering one, no matter how small the risk. just recently my friend was telling me of someone he heard of that got in trouble for them.

and no, i dont know what prohormones means
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that dont mean ****, i can run a 14 wk testE cycle with NO serm/PCT and recover.
every one would RECOVER without a PCT, PCT is just to HELP with recovery.
do you need aserm? no
is it a good idea? YES
 
Rodja said:
I guess he's trying to make the point that you're still adding exogenous hormones into the body and will always require a SERM no matter how mild the compound is.
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yep, maybe your DONTNEED IT ,but its always a good idea.
 
bill86 said:
thats another good point, id be a bit worried of interactions if someone were able to write me a prescription for one and get it from the pharmacy, much less get it from a random sketchy internet site.

but like i said, im also not taking the chance of getting caught (like i said before, yes, people DO get caught) because of where im at with school and everything, ive done a lot of stupid things and this would be one thats easily avoidable that id like to avoid.

have you had any personal experience with the TRS? if so, what ph did you run it for?
Click to expand...
same thign asyour PRo-H or aas. you do yoru research. i mena you could say the same thing for your protein powder.
 
FrankRight19 said:
This theard is funny. It can takes months to stabilize your hormones without proper PCT. When did bodybuilders forget how to run a steroid cycle? Brb, testing some new compound someone said was great.

Seriously though, it doesn't even matter, I am sure TF-1 and sustain alpha are great. I did LOL at some of your posts though bill.. for as concerned as you are about taking something because of side-effects, you sure don't seem to care about having a healthy hormonal balance which is probably worse for your body then any of it.
Click to expand...


i said id like to keep sides at a minimum.... why add a prescription drug as a pct when, FOR A PP CYCLE, i dont need to, or at least from everything ive read.
 
Blergs said:
same thign asyour PRo-H or aas. you do yoru research. i mena you could say the same thing for your protein powder.
Click to expand...

thats true... but i generally assume that the protein i buy isnt spiked with something, or else everyone ordering the economic protein would be getting huge

and for how concerned i am, its because if it werent for my concern, i would have started a cycle years ago... its only now, after exhausting all my other options that i turn to this (still got some anabeta and erase ready to stack, so who knows), because after being stagnant you can only keep going so long. as ive stated numerous times, my biggest point is not putting more in my body than necessary, and with the results ive seen from MILD ph's like the androseries, a serm isnt necessary for most people.... lets get back to my original point... im not saying all ph's are usable without serms, im just saying that milder ones, ESPECIALLY something like androhard dont need one..

any PP reps wanna step up for you products, pct?

and with regard to the 'i dont know what PROHORMONE' means, i mean, i didnt understand why he capitalized PRO in prohormone, thats all.
 
I'm not sure what we're supposed to defend in this situation. I'll tell you now that I won't waste my time arguing with Blergs since he can't be reasoned with.
 
i guess i was just asking if im wrong about the mildness of something like AH and even AM, and the potency of yalls pct... but i guess in the end it doesnt really matter, no one is getting convinced on either side in this argument
 
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bill86 said:
i guess i was just asking if im wrong about the mildness of something like AH and even AM, and the potency of yalls pct... but i guess in the end it doesnt really matter, no one is getting convinced on either side in this argument
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AH and AL are both incredibly mild. IMO, you wouldn't need a SERM for either of them, but there's nothing I can say to convince some of that.
 
i guess i was just wondering if my argument was BS... you know more than me, and most people on here, so i guess i was just double checking lol
 
bill86 said:
i guess i was just wondering if my argument was BS... you know more than me, and most people on here, so i guess i was just double checking lol
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I don't think pharma-grade or research chem SERMs are necessary for PCT. Most people do think SERMs are necessary. To each his own.
 
I feel safer using a low dose SERM than not using SERM at all. To each its own.

I plan on running a low 3-4 week SERM with other supps to help on the test boosting, but that's my prerogative.
 
bla55 said:
I feel safer using a low dose SERM than not using SERM at all. To each its own.

I plan on running a low 3-4 week SERM with other supps to help on the test boosting, but that's my prerogative.
Click to expand...

I know that there is an old school of thought to taper the AAS and to not use PCT, but I wonder how many of them actually get consistent bloodwork.
 
not use pct of ANY KIND? i know a lot of people disagree with the method, but at least on paper, i dont think pulsing a low dose then running an otc pct looks too bad, but i dont think id wanna try a taper/no pct method, haha.
 
sorry if this is a stupid question, but ive yet to find the answer to it. why do people put so much emphasis on bloodwork test levels? of course, it would be great right after a cycle to see where you are, but i dont understand why its important post-pct if youve kept most/all of your gains, libido is intact, etc.

if your test was still low, wouldnt you have lost much the aforementioned? if not, assuming your body will recover FAIRLY soon, why is it such a problem, just because it will slow your natural gains until you've returned to normal?


edit* because i always see people say 'oh, this pct or that pct regimen worked for me' which always leads to the 'how do you know? did you get bloodwork?'

i guess i just dont understand the consequence of your blood work showing you having fully recovered when youre good to go with the physical signs that it has
 
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bill86 said:
sorry if this is a stupid question, but ive yet to find the answer to it. why do people put so much emphasis on bloodwork test levels? of course, it would be great right after a cycle to see where you are, but i dont understand why its important post-pct if youve kept most/all of your gains, libido is intact, etc.

if your test was still low, wouldnt you have lost much the aforementioned? if not, assuming your body will recover FAIRLY soon, why is it such a problem, just because it will slow your natural gains until you've returned to normal?


edit* because i always see people say 'oh, this pct or that pct regimen worked for me' which always leads to the 'how do you know? did you get bloodwork?'

i guess i just dont understand the consequence of your blood work showing you having fully recovered when youre good to go with the physical signs that it has
Click to expand...

It's not just post-PCT bloods that should be taken, but you need the pre-cycle bloods as your baseline. I have a friend that said he felt fine after his PCT (his cycle was Test P/Mast A/Var) and was about to hop back on cycle after 3 months off. I finally convinced him to get bloods just to be safe and his test level was at 275, which is really, really low. As you get older, it takes your body longer to rebound from a cycle and the bloods help to establish where your levels are.

Also, bloodwork is about general health. It's not just the test levels that are important; you need to see the condition of your kidneys, lipids, blood cells, LH, FSH, E2, etc.
 
oh yeah, i know its the ONLY way to check general health...ive heard so many people say 'yeah, i took ____, but i didnt have any side effects' when i know they didnt have bloods done, and PROBABLY didnt even take their blood pressure.

so basically (as far as test levels only go, not taking lipids, enzymes, etc into account), its all about seeing where you are for future reference (if youre thinking of starting another cycle) rather than wondering if youre going to see losses from the cycle/pct you just finished? i was getting a little confused based on the context in which people were using the 'did you get bloods done', kind of made it sound like still having somewhat suppressed test levels after pct would negatively effect you on down the road, even if you werent planning on running another cycle.

honestly, i would have thought 3 months out from pct and youre good... thats interesting/good to know
 
bill86 said:
oh yeah, i know its the ONLY way to check general health...ive heard so many people say 'yeah, i took ____, but i didnt have any side effects' when i know they didnt have bloods done, and PROBABLY didnt even take their blood pressure.

so basically (as far as test levels only go, not taking lipids, enzymes, etc into account), its all about seeing where you are for future reference (if youre thinking of starting another cycle) rather than wondering if youre going to see losses from the cycle/pct you just finished? i was getting a little confused based on the context in which people were using the 'did you get bloods done', kind of made it sound like still having somewhat suppressed test levels after pct would negatively effect you on down the road, even if you werent planning on running another cycle.

honestly, i would have thought 3 months out from pct and youre good... thats interesting/good to know
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The effects of non balanced hormones don't always manifest immediately. You very well could be abnormal balance-wise, but "feel" fine, which is why testing is important.
 
bill86 said:
oh yeah, i know its the ONLY way to check general health...ive heard so many people say 'yeah, i took ____, but i didnt have any side effects' when i know they didnt have bloods done, and PROBABLY didnt even take their blood pressure.

so basically (as far as test levels only go, not taking lipids, enzymes, etc into account), its all about seeing where you are for future reference (if youre thinking of starting another cycle) rather than wondering if youre going to see losses from the cycle/pct you just finished? i was getting a little confused based on the context in which people were using the 'did you get bloods done', kind of made it sound like still having somewhat suppressed test levels after pct would negatively effect you on down the road, even if you werent planning on running another cycle.

honestly, i would have thought 3 months out from pct and youre good... thats interesting/good to know
Click to expand...

To use my friend as an example (granted, n=1), he is still holding all of his mass and strength, but has been feeling a tad lethargic and not so much depressed, but not in a great mood. Gym wise, he was fine, but his quality of life was low because his PCT did not work as planned.
 
right, i was just wondering why its so important to find out afterwards, i didnt even think about needing to know with regard to running another cycle. good to know, like i said, i figured 3 months would be enough, but like you said, you never know unless you get a test.

i guess i was just thinking along the lines of someone who might run 1 cycle in a year. in that case, i didnt really understand why test levels were that important as long as you kept your gains... surely if you were going to run only once, say, before summer, you'd be fine before it's time to run another (a year later), but i guess not many people do it like that haha.
 
just out of curiosity, what pct did he run, and was the cycle you mentioned ran very close to another before it?
 
bill86 said:
right, i was just wondering why its so important to find out afterwards, i didnt even think about needing to know with regard to running another cycle. good to know, like i said, i figured 3 months would be enough, but like you said, you never know unless you get a test.

i guess i was just thinking along the lines of someone who might run 1 cycle in a year. in that case, i didnt really understand why test levels were that important as long as you kept your gains... surely if you were going to run only once, say, before summer, you'd be fine before it's time to run another (a year later), but i guess not many people do it like that haha.
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One cycle a year is a little different of a beast, but if you plan on cycling consistently, then they become critical.

Most don't think this way, but its more about preventing potential effects in future decades.
 
right, i was actually thinking of a couple friends i have (and hopefully at some point, me as well) who have run a single cycle, got good results, and basically just went back to a regular supplement regimen for the past year+. they all sound like they'd want to run another at some point, but its DEFINITELY not a consistent thing.. more like a little help to get over a hump.
 
bill86 said:
right, i was actually thinking of a couple friends i have (and hopefully at some point, me as well) who have run a single cycle, got good results, and basically just went back to a regular supplement regimen for the past year+. they all sound like they'd want to run another at some point, but its DEFINITELY not a consistent thing.. more like a little help to get over a hump.
Click to expand...

Cycling is addictive. Not in the traditional sense, but it's very rare that someone only does one.
 
true... i think a lack of money is what has caused some people i know not to do it very often. if done right, its expensive.
 
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