Creatine Ethyl Ester is inferior

[ReaperX]

I've been saying this all along too. I think too many individuals go on other people's reactions to products, then create a self-induced placebo effect until alternate research proves otherwise. Suddenly everything that was so great and grand about the product, including but not limited to 'getting jacked' was all a hoax after all.

I stopped going to bodybuilding.com's forum, because I feel like no one there has an actual brain to think for themselves. I once drew speculation to a certain product which appeared to be bogus and just about every person on that forum got so flustered they started throwing hundreds of animal, not human studies to prove me otherwise.....hm.

 

[Dagron]

Someone on that BB.com thread claimed that this is PA's take on CEE. If true, it would mean that CEE *is* effective... just not for what it's marketed to do.

"with CEE, you are able to get much higher increases in serum creatine than with monohydrate. now these increases are very brief compared to the much longer and more prolonged increases with creatine mono, but there may be some advantage to having super high levels, especially when you are working out and the blood is rushing to your muscles - especially if some is in the ethyl ester form.

I suspect this because I was made privy to the results of a study done by tom incledon which showed much more impressive strength gains and body composition improvements with CEE over mono. I figured there had to be an explanation

as far as CEE's passive diffusion properties goes, this theoretically may allow creatine loading beyond the finite capacity of your muscle cells as regulated by the activity of creatine transporters. the acheivment of supraphysiological creatine loading has been one of the goals of creatine researchers (like greenhaf) for over a decade."

 

[CDB]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=49969391

Post 101, down a little.

Someone on that BB.com thread claimed that this is PA's take on CEE. If true, it would mean that CEE *is* effective... just not for what it's marketed to do.

"with CEE, you are able to get much higher increases in serum creatine than with monohydrate. now these increases are very brief compared to the much longer and more prolonged increases with creatine mono, but there may be some advantage to having super high levels, especially when you are working out and the blood is rushing to your muscles - especially if some is in the ethyl ester form.

I suspect this because I was made privy to the results of a study done by tom incledon which showed much more impressive strength gains and body composition improvements with CEE over mono. I figured there had to be an explanation

as far as CEE's passive diffusion properties goes, this theoretically may allow creatine loading beyond the finite capacity of your muscle cells as regulated by the activity of creatine transporters. the acheivment of supraphysiological creatine loading has been one of the goals of creatine researchers (like greenhaf) for over a decade."

 

[Dagron]

So even if we could prove that CM had a greater absorption rate, a dose of CEE preworkout would, in all likelihood, still be beneficial. Rule. :bb2:

 

[CDB]

The real take home of all this isn't mentioned: improvements in diet followed with improvements in training will make more of a long term difference than any legal supplement.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

The real take home of all this isn't mentioned: improvements in diet followed with improvements in training will make more of a long term difference than any legal supplement.

I disagree. Diet and training don't come in a bottle. :whiner:

 

[CDB]

I disagree. Diet and training don't come in a bottle. :whiner:

If it's a joke, I don't get it. :stick: <-- Me.

 

[ReaperX]

Well, see here's the issue with CEE. The science behind it and on paper is excellent, I'll give them credit for that. However, there are many things that seem good on paper yet don't pan out too well in reality. A very simple and effective way to find out once and for all if CEE and Kre-Alkalyn work is to have a lot of ####Fisher rats given each monohydrate, CEE, and Kre-Alkalyn, and whatever else creatine you want to try, then perform a muscle biopsy.

Until then, you can only take things as hearsay. I've tried CEE before without any positive results.

 

[Sir Savage]

Here's my take on CEE-

The concurrent claims of increased stability AND absorption for CEE have never made sense to me. After all, if it absorbs quicker (and therefore metabolizes quicker) how could it be more STABLE at the same time?

To me, all this study shows is that these two qualities are indeed at odds with each other, with the faster absorption coming out on top.

This study doesn't mean that CEE is "bunk". In fact, it may mean that it would be particularly useful for when fast absorption is needed. Say, post-workout.

In other words, this research really isn't all that unexpected (especially in such a low pH- lower than the stomach). If CEE absorbs and metabolizes quicker, then we would expect to see higher levels of creatinine.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

If it's a joke, I don't get it. :stick: <-- Me.

Yes, it was a joke.

Personally, I'm OCD when it comes to buying things that come in bottles. Addiction, I tell you.

:bb3:

 

[SXULB52]

I'm still on the fence about CEE, but the study uses HCL at pH 1, however in the stomach the HCL becomes diluted and pH is around 2-3, which may have a difference on the conversion. Just a thought.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Here's my take on CEE-

The concurrent claims of increased stability AND absorption for CEE have never made sense to me. After all, if it absorbs quicker (and therefore metabolizes quicker) how could it be more STABLE at the same time?

To me, all this study shows is that these two qualities are indeed at odds with each other, with the faster absorption coming out on top.

This study doesn't mean that CEE is "bunk". In fact, it may mean that it would be particularly useful for when fast absorption is needed. Say, post-workout.

In other words, this research really isn't all that unexpected (especially in such a low pH- lower than the stomach). If CEE absorbs and metabolizes quicker, then we would expect to see higher levels of creatinine.

Nice post....never thought of the idea of maybe using CEE post-workout. Not convinced really...I have been researching this a lot lately...my descriptive thoughts are still to come...good point though.

 

[CDB]

Nice post....never thought of the idea of maybe using CEE post-workout. Not convinced really...I have been researching this a lot lately...my descriptive thoughts are still to come...good point though.

Here's what I say. Take all the different kinds of creatine. Figure out the effective dose of each type. Create a mix so an effective dose of every type is included in one dose of the mixed product with a metric assload of glucose included, and market that as the Let'sThrow****attheWallabol.

 

[thesinner]

Here's what I say. Take all the different kinds of creatine. Figure out the effective dose of each type. Create a mix so an effective dose of every type is included in one dose of the mixed product with a metric assload of glucose included, and market that as the Let'sThrow****attheWallabol.

Don't they already make that?

 

[V00D00]

Don't they already make that?

yeah I know we do ... but honestly the only reason I ever use creatine is for water retention/back pump reduction. I'm less than impressed by results of the stuff.. I'm too ADD for my own good.

 

[Flaw]

monohydrate always sent me to the rest room after working out and gave me terrible gas. I don't know if this was the brands I was taking or just that version of creatine all together. CEE seemed like my only option and i've been using it for over a year. I feel it works good for me. Like some have said I got some great pumps the first 2 weeks of using it again after a cycle and then they wear off but i feel the strength gains are still there. Especially mixed with carb powder. I've had labs and my creatinine levels were always normal. I don't know.. it's just one study..

Any better options than monohydrate that won't give the stomach discomfort?

 

[ShakesAllDay]

monohydrate always sent me to the rest room after working out and gave me terrible gas. I don't know if this was the brands I was taking or just that version of creatine all together.

How were you ingesting your CM? I find that if I take CM w/ only carbs (like Cell-Tech type stuff), I get instant fire-butt.

But, if I add it to a protein shake, it's all good.

 

[Flaw]

How were you ingesting your CM? I find that if I take CM w/ only carbs (like Cell-Tech type stuff), I get instant fire-butt.

But, if I add it to a protein shake, it's all good.

it was added to ON's whey shake.

 

[jmh80]

Hell - monohydrate sends me to the sh*tter DURING my workout. Forget after (that's a given).

 

[bodybybrad]

Got to love tried and true methods but it's hard not to try something new and see for yourself. Placebo does wonders too though Thanks for ****ing with my reality!

haha no kidding i used to tell people it was placebo and they wouldnt listen.:bb2:

 

[whitedevil74]

Thanks for this information. It completely neutralizes the entire hype behind Creatine Ethyl Ester. While "old" Creatine Monohydrate may be "boring", some athletes swear by it, indicating that its impact might depend on the consumer's physiology.
Some of us that fall within the category of creatine(-monohydrate) non-responders prefer creatine bonded with Alpha-Keto-Glucarate, or creatine as Kre-Alkalyn, or Tri-Creatine Orotate. These advanced forms appear to deliver superior and consistent results.

Actually their study showed Kre-Alk was inferior to mono as well. oooopss. Ten times better my booty.

 

[whitedevil74]

monohydrate always sent me to the rest room after working out and gave me terrible gas. I don't know if this was the brands I was taking or just that version of creatine all together. CEE seemed like my only option and i've been using it for over a year. I feel it works good for me. Like some have said I got some great pumps the first 2 weeks of using it again after a cycle and then they wear off but i feel the strength gains are still there. Especially mixed with carb powder. I've had labs and my creatinine levels were always normal. I don't know.. it's just one study..

Any better options than monohydrate that won't give the stomach discomfort?

Micronized Creapure, like powdered sugar. Also you only need about 3 grams a day, the old recommendations regarding dosage were largely responsible for the bloating and digestion issues.

 

[celc5]

How long does creatine of any kind stay in the stomach? It was my understanding any meal taken in in a chyme or liquid state went on to the intestines pretty fast, 20 minutes or so. So unless you're eating creatine cookies, it should travel fairly quickly to your intestines where bile and bicarbonate and what not raise the PH and absorption begins rather quickly, correct?

Not sure if fast or sustained absorption is the goal here. But, to simply add to the topic:

MLO makes "Xtreme" protein bars that have 5g CM in it. They're like a buck at good ol Wal Mart. Tastes great and, for me personally, gives me just as good results as bulk CM.

 

[fritzer]

you dont bloat on CEE because it doesnt work. How the hell are people still on the fence about this crap. I am gonna bust this out!

1) Firstly, there is no need to “attach” an ester group to the creatine molecule. Nothing suggests that this attachment will make creatine any more bioavailable. Some marketers claim that this attachment prevents degradation by the liver. Creatine is actually synthesized in the liver, morons.

2) Secondly, the ester attachment allegedly, enables this form of creatine to permeate the muscle cell membrane (outershell). Thus, more creatine can enter muscle cells. This is a straight out lie. The only way creatine and other amino acid compounds enter cells is via transporters. Yah, the creatine transporters for CREATINE MADE IN THE BODY NOT CREATINE ETHYL ESTER... morons


3) How naive are you people?? These companies claim 400x more absorption, faster absorption, etc over Creatine Monohydrate, THESE are specific claims, claims that need to be backed by science... ask one of these companies to show you a study not done by them and a few of their bodybuilders... NOTHING... "but but jay cutler says...." screw off

4) You want to talk about CEE, hey guess what. Clayton south wrote an article. In the first line he lists 9 references dealing with Creatine monohydrate. Then uses them to back up CEE... it is douche bags like this that gets everyone confused...

If anyone on this board can get me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY done by researchers that is controlled, look on academic search premier and pubmed, etc. Then i may just change my mind... but guess what i already looked 2 years ago, there is nothing and will never be anything proving CEE is superior because it is creatinine in a bottle

I use creatine monohydrate 25g a day for 3 days then off for three and repeat over and over. I gained 20lbs in 2 months when i started this. I tried CEE and lost strength weekly (dymatize xpand)...

 

[fritzer]

there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003

Dammit doesn't anyone know how to research anymore?

 

[DieTrying]

there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003

Dammit doesn't anyone know how to research anymore?

Fritzer, you have a friend in me.:wave:

Truth is that if you talk with the true scientists in the field they'd tell you that this was coming from a mile away. Train hard, pre and post training EAA/CHO, Creatine Monohydrate, Beta Alanine, flax seed oil and a multi-vitamin are where its at. No need to increase absorption or fancy up the stuff that science backs. If you can't find it in Pubmed, don't touch it. Sorry if thats boring.

 

[ReaperX]

Fritzer, that's a good post and very important information you just put out there. At the same time, it sucks because I don't think everyone has the intellect to research and think about the actual physiology and biochemistry involved. Btw, Clayton South is f'ing idiot.

 

[The Graduate]

I'm still on the fence about CEE, but the study uses HCL at pH 1, however in the stomach the HCL becomes diluted and pH is around 2-3, which may have a difference on the conversion. Just a thought.

Dr Tallon stated that this was only a small part of the research. Tests were carried out at higher pH, around 5 and the results were still the same.

Need to wait till it gets peer reviewed and published!

And hopefully see a few more studies in this area.

 

[Flaw]

Micronized Creapure, like powdered sugar. Also you only need about 3 grams a day, the old recommendations regarding dosage were largely responsible for the bloating and digestion issues.

Is creapure micronized creatine or just better quality? I never quite got this. Some only say micronized while others say creapure. What's the difference? thanks

 

[muad33b]

That's a new one to me...

there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days)..

None of the studies you quoted used this protocol, do you have the study that does? I find this very interesting... and would like to try it... curious as to the specific study parameters and results tho...

 

[fritzer]

No you are right, none of the studies use exactly the same protocol, but only say that the traditional method shows a drop in creatine levels. This is due to receptor down regualtion in muscle cells. What we do know is that after a short loading phase, creatine works as it should. So we want to aim for high creatine concentrations all the time, not just after loading. So the three day "loading" phase serves to shuttle creatine into cells, while preventing receptor down regulation or de-sensitization (they are located on cell membrane). 3 days off??? Thats enough time to re-sensitize receptors while keeping creatine concentrations high in the cells.

Now there is some personal specualtion in here, and no defining study. But i can tell you it works. 3 of my friends started this and had the same results as me. Another friend at the gym started this a month ago and deadlift went from 405 to 525. When i first started this method i shot up 20lbs in two months and finally left 315 squats behind for 405...

It is just using research to find something better. "The old method isnt very efficient so lets try something new using those principles" But i agree with so many of you that a hell of a lot more studies and placebo double blind studies need to be done!

 

[EasyEJL]

Don't they already make that?

yeah, I bought some at GNC yesterday, they guy behind the counter says its the real schiznit, and what he uses.

 

[muad33b]

No you are right, none of the studies use exactly the same protocol, but only say that the traditional method shows a drop in creatine levels. This is due to receptor down regualtion in muscle cells. What we do know is that after a short loading phase, creatine works as it should. So we want to aim for high creatine concentrations all the time, not just after loading. So the three day "loading" phase serves to shuttle creatine into cells, while preventing receptor down regulation or de-sensitization (they are located on cell membrane). 3 days off??? Thats enough time to re-sensitize receptors while keeping creatine concentrations high in the cells.

Now there is some personal specualtion in here, and no defining study. But i can tell you it works. 3 of my friends started this and had the same results as me. Another friend at the gym started this a month ago and deadlift went from 405 to 525. When i first started this method i shot up 20lbs in two months and finally left 315 squats behind for 405...

It is just using research to find something better. "The old method isnt very efficient so lets try something new using those principles" But i agree with so many of you that a hell of a lot more studies and placebo double blind studies need to be done!

So, more curiosity, as I see no reason not to give this a try.

Are you using plain old mono, mono+glucose, or something like:

Di/Tricreatine Orotate
Magnesium Creatine Chelate
Di/Tricreatine Malate

which is found in CL Green MAG - type products?

How are you dosing? 5x5g, or 10 pre-workout, 10 post, 5 later?

 

[thesinner]

yeah, I bought some at GNC yesterday, they guy behind the counter says its the real schiznit, and what he uses.

If it produces a body like that of the average GNC user, it must suck.

The nearest GNC by my house is run by some dumpy lady (she looks like the kind of gumpy-looking, heavy broad that could lash out into total b*tch mode at the drop of a dime). Everytime I've ever walked in there, she always tries to sell me Multivitamins, and comes up with the most asinine reasons why Mega-Men is SSSSOOOO much superior to any others. One time she was trying to convice me that I needed GNC multivitamins because they contained milligram quantities of branched chain amino acids. And all I wanted to do was get them to contact Anabolic Xtreme about carrying their line so I could get free MFX from Mace (old contest).

 

[fritzer]

yah, i definitly suggest you try it.

AM: 5g creatine monohydrate
Pre Workout: 5g + dextrose
Post: 5g + dextrose
Post (1.5 hour later): 5 g + dextrose
PM: 5g


This 3 on/ 3 off goes whether it is workout day or not. Sometimes it works out that Sat/Sun are "ON" even though i dont workout. Just cycle 3on 3off continuously.

 

[CarterMalone]

Well alot of CEE products come mixed with Arginine so you still get pump. But I was wondering why I drank so much more water on monohydrate. Good stuff.

 

[muad33b]

yah, i definitly suggest you try it.

AM: 5g creatine monohydrate
Pre Workout: 5g + dextrose
Post: 5g + dextrose
Post (1.5 hour later): 5 g + dextrose
PM: 5g


This 3 on/ 3 off goes whether it is workout day or not. Sometimes it works out that Sat/Sun are "ON" even though i dont workout. Just cycle 3on 3off continuously.

Thanks for the reply. Right now, I work out in the AM on an empty stomach (well some BCAA's + a ton of supps) to try to cut w/out cardio. So I'll have to do:

- 5g pre w/ no dextrose (crystal light), 5g post w/ my PWO shake (plenty of malto in that)

- 5g w/ my 1 hr later PWO shake (sometimes add small amount of carbs if I feel energy lagging)

- then 5g w/ crystal light with my next 2 solid meals, and

- 5g w/ crytsal light w/ my last meal of the day

I'm working out 5-6 days a week, so the off days are no big deal... I'll update this thread after a couple weeks to let folks know how that worked for me over the CEE (that I've been on for the last week) which hasn't really done much for me...

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Thanks for the reply. Right now, I work out in the AM on an empty stomach (well some BCAA's + a ton of supps) to try to cut w/out cardio. So I'll have to do:

- 5g pre w/ no dextrose (crystal light), 5g post w/ my PWO shake (plenty of malto in that)

- 5g w/ my 1 hr later PWO shake (sometimes add small amount of carbs if I feel energy lagging)

- then 5g w/ crystal light with my next 2 solid meals, and

- 5g w/ crytsal light w/ my last meal of the day

I'm working out 5-6 days a week, so the off days are no big deal... I'll update this thread after a couple weeks to let folks know how that worked for me over the CEE (that I've been on for the last week) which hasn't really done much for me...

muad, waht up man!! Good to see ya over here...Good guy right here folk!

 

[fritzer]

haha. definitly keep us posted!! I can say from personal experience, and what my friends have gone through that you will love it! The 3on/3off was developed by Paul Cribb over at AST sports and is used by skip la cour and jeff willet. Think what you will about AST but paul cribb is a smart guy regardless of how overpriced their products are

 

[nycste]

jeeze lots of reading right now. BUMP to this 25g 3day split thing. want more to try it since i just bought a new tub of non CM

 

[Ubiquitous]

waaaaait a second..

hold up....




what's "creatine"?

 

[CDB]

waaaaait a second..

hold up....




what's "creatine"?

It's a new designer steroid. They found it in Chris Benoit's house next to some illegal vitamin C.

 

[celc5]

Will a pct of Novedex xt be enough?

 

[CDB]

Will a post cycle therapy of Novedex xt be enough?

No. You'll likely have to have a testicle transplant.

 

[grila jujitsu]

does that mean that kre alkalyn creatine sux too?

 

[Ubiquitous]

It's a new designer steroid. They found it in Chris Benoit's house next to some illegal vitamin C.

hoooboy... that sound better than the melted crayons I was eating.

 

[EasyEJL]

hoooboy... that sound better than the melted crayons I was eating.

damn you eat them? here i've been grinding them up and snorting them all this time

 

[CDB]

damn you eat them? here i've been grinding them up and snorting them all this time

I've been parachuting mine.

 

[celc5]

hoooboy... that sound better than the melted crayons I was eating.

mix the melted crayon in Penetrate for a killer transdermal

 

[thesinner]

C'mon you guys, everybody knows you only get the effects from green crayons, and there's only two ways to do it: You can melt them up and inject them IV into the crook of your arm or you can simply let it sit on a metal surface underneath a lighter until it becomes volatile enough to hough.