BBiceps
Well-known member
25mg ED for 8 weeks
Clomid during cycle
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
25mg ED for 8 weeks
Spurfy
Active member
Clomid at a low dose (12.5 mg ED/EOD) is awesome.
BBiceps
Well-known member
I always did 25mg but 12.5mg might work as well, I’m actually thinking of stretching it out another 2 weeks and do 25mg EOD.
CatSnake
Well-known member
yup, you're 100% correct.
HCG has tons of clinical and anecdotal data showing that it prevents testicular atrophy while on cycle or on TRT.... obviously transitioning to a SERM following the HCG/cycle is a normal protocol that is pretty successful with plenty of evidence showing it's effectiveness.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442
one issue I see with long term use of SERM use, is that most don't work indefinitely (clomid seems to be the only exception):
Invalid Link Removed
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html
.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Jinsun
Well-known member
Anybody knows anything about the hypothesis the researchers made in this study: Invalid Link Removed
They proposed that tamoxifen and toremifene don't only increase test by acting on the pituitary but also have a direct effect on the leydig cells, thus increasing T production also by this mechanism of action.
They proposed that tamoxifen and toremifene don't only increase test by acting on the pituitary but also have a direct effect on the leydig cells, thus increasing T production also by this mechanism of action.
BBiceps
Well-known member
Adding some aromasin in there to lower shbg would probably also be very nice
Never thought of that
Spurfy
Active member
Adding some aromasin in there to lower shbg would probably also be very nice
A tiny (6.25 mg E3D) dose of aromasin is helpful, but in my experience, low-dose Clomid and Proviron (or better yet, 5 mg/day of Var) are absolute gold.
I still prefer torem, it's not as strong at stimulating the HPG-axis as clomid, but it's essentially side-effect free. Clomid, at any dose, still has the potential to produce occular toxicity. Toremifene has also been demonstrated to reduce the incidence of prostate cancer anywhere from 50-90% in high-risk men.
Toremifene also seems to confer a very potent beneficial effect on the immune system, which isn't surprising given the positive role that E2 plays in supporting immune system function. Toremifene has even been successfully tested against the ebola virus.
Spurfy
Active member
As I've stated before, I believe that toremifene (and yes, the toxic sister drug tamoxifen), have a direct androgenic effect in men.
Spurfy
Active member
Actually, this study shows that after 3 months, T levels were still rising in the toremifene group but not the tamoxifen or raloxifene group, whose T levels began to fall:
The fact that after 3 months LH was a full point lower in the toremifene group compared to the toremifene group, but that T levels were nearly identical, is demonstrative of toremifene's effect on raising T independent of LH production.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Proviron if you want to be horny as hell for the period of 12 weeks is nice yes
Tbh if taking a serm one might just as well up the dose of var don't you think? Otherwise whats the difference between taking only a good test booster? Alphamax xt put my free t 25% above max. 30pg/ml... Althogh I did have some sides like dry lips, so maybe serms plus proviron might be better... How much do you think FT would br elevated from a low dose serm + some form of shbg inhibitor? Generally speaking...I appreciate your optimism
but was there any research done on this matter?Spurfy
Active member
Proviron if you want to be horny as hell for the period of 12 weeks is nice yes
5 mg of Var is equal to 15-30 mg of T, and since it's a DHT derivative it's going to bind to SHBG with a higher affinity than anything else. Yes, this will displace E2 from SHBG, but the SERM is preventing this E2 from doing anything and besides, all androgens lower SHBG anyway. So, you're basically getting the SHBG effect of Proviron or Masteron with no androgenic sides. Plus all the other positive benefits of Var, like increased collagen synthesis, that Proviron and Masteron don't provide.
I appreciate your optimism
The study I posted images of demonstrates that something other than and in addition to LH, is raising T. This is demonstrative of a direct androgenic effect on the testes.
Spurfy
Active member
No suppression as long as a SERM is on-board.
BBiceps
Well-known member
But do you really see/feel a difference of that low dose of Var?
Spurfy
Active member
Would I take it if I didn't? People way underestimate Var.
BBiceps
Well-known member
That was a very silly answer on a question, what’s your weight?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Well the fsh was significantly higher with torem vs nolva.
rowz4broz
Well-known member
Is this a new way of cycling ? Running a serm will negate suppression? I’m late to this thread so
Spurfy
Active member
185 lbs
Spurfy
Active member
Sure, but FSH doesn't really affect T levels, just sperm production.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I thought fsh made the lyding cells more sensitive to LH? I definitely don't have anything to back this up other than I thought I read this once, so definitely could be wrong.
Spurfy
Active member
FSH acts on Sertoli cells only, which stimulate spermatogenesis. To the best of my knowledge, Leydig cells do not have FSH receptors.
Prolactin upregulates the response of Leydig cells to LH by increasing LH receptors.
BBiceps
Well-known member
Maybe that’s why, I’m 220 and get nothing from pharmacy Var at 25mg ed.
Spurfy
Active member
Who is the manufacturer?
BBiceps
Well-known member
It was from a local pharmacy, Partell.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Maybe you're also at a higher bf % and don't notice the results so much... Or maybe Spurfy trains and eats better
CatSnake
Well-known member
where did you see this?
30 mg/day of testosterone would be like 210 mg.wk, which would put most guys over 1000 ng..... I really doubt the gains from 5 mg/day of anavar would be noticeable, let alone comparable to that.
CatSnake
Well-known member
right, but your circulating testosterone doesn't just go away right away thanks to SHBG, etc.
your HPTA kicks in when it signals that either testosterone or estrogen are low, and will generally start working (assuming there's no underlying issues). the HCG will get the testes primed to accept LH, and something like clomid will trigger the signal to increase GnRH and LH/FSH (AFAIK, none of the other SERMs have a direct effect on increasing GnRH, tho).
plenty of folks simply use HCG at the end of their cycle as the longer esters clear and then start the SERM for a relatively seamless transition.
sure, you can take the SERM earlier, but it's not really gonna start working right away as the negative feedback mechanisms aren't really being triggered, due to high androgen levels, etc....
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
This is not true. Even with high circulating androgens SERMS will still stimulate LH/ FSH and the testes. My guess is they have a higher binding affinity to the estrogen receptors than estrogen itself.
BBiceps
Well-known member
Maybe you're also at a higher bf % and don't notice the results so much... Or maybe Spurfy trains and eats better
At the time I was still competing and I used to be one of the best in the world so I doubt Spurfy trains better than me, I was around 10% bf, idk if that considers high for Var but I would of think that I should of felt something.
I stopped after 3 weeks, maybe I should of gone longer but I felt it was pointless.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Spurfy
Active member
This has been covered ad nauseum in other threads. Oxandrolone is (arguably) the most anabolic AAS there is, being a minimum of 3-6 times as anabolically active as testosterone and with some studies showing 13 times as anabolic. Oxandrolone's anabolic effects have been very well documented in numerous published studies that have been referenced in other threads and for which I'm not going to pull up.
Spurfy
Active member
You're assuming that SERMs are simple antagonists of ER-a, but it's very likely that SERMs are actually inverse agonists at ER-a, at least in certain tissues. If this were not the case, raloxifene would not be able to reverse gyno, rather it would merely stop its progression. This is also why SERMs can maintain HPG-axis functionality even in the presence of high levels of androgens. Only an inverse agonist of ER-a would be able to do this.
Spurfy
Active member
I very much doubt Spurfy trains better than you. Spurfy is lean and very strong and trains for two specific sports, both speed/power intensive, but is by no means huge.
That said, UGL oxandrolone is notoriously fake/underdosed... If you have a chance to try pharmaceutical grade, I'd jump on it.
BBiceps
Well-known member
It was from this pharmacy Invalid Link Removed, it was as real as it could be. I didn’t have enough to do 50mg or more so after 3 weeks of nothing at 25mg I gave it away, it felt pointless with that small amount. I have no doubts that Var at the right dosage works but if you think you get results with that small amount it’s most likely placebo, but hey, results are results.
Hyde
Legend
Looking at results over months of accumulation, not drastic 1 month transformations here. But the months and years add up, don’t they?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
25mg of VAR will add mass. You just have to give it time. You wont blow up and feel like superman in 3 weeks like on Dbol, it is much more subtle, quality gains. Do a 6 month run of var at 25mg a day, your physique will have transformed for the good with little to no side effects or toxicity and the gains will STICK. Var not only causes existing muscle cells to grow, it creates new cells.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Bump
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Im thinking for my next cycle i will run something like this
-low dose NALTREXONE: .75mg before bed everynight except Wednesday. starting 1 week before cycle through pct(very promising data for LDN)
-TOREM: 60mg 1 week before cycle, so it has time to kick in, all the way through pct
-OL K1NGSBLOOD: as recommended start through pct. I know its natural and probably wont effect test levels at all, but it has some things in it that show promise for POSSIBLY mitigating suppression.
-Na-DAA chelate: 3.12g something as above, and i know its data is also meh. Although its cheap so why not?
-Extra ROYAL JELLY: 3g shown to prevent damage to testes caused by 19nors
-TAURINE: 10g same as royal jelly
-Extra LONG JACK (lj:100): 400mg on top of k1ngsblood.
-PREGNENOLONE: 200mg sublingual in morning.
-ANADROL: 100mg for 8 weeks.
-OL K1NGSGUARD: as recommended
-TUDCA: 1G added on top of k1ngsguard
-NAC: 3g
i hope to do pre, during, pct, and 2month post pct bloods and see were LH, FSH, e2, testosterone, etc, and chose anadrol only since it obviously can't convert to test or estrogen, is fast acting, and considered highly supressive. So this way on the bloodwork, i know any testosterone or e2 is what im producing.
-low dose NALTREXONE: .75mg before bed everynight except Wednesday. starting 1 week before cycle through pct(very promising data for LDN)
-TOREM: 60mg 1 week before cycle, so it has time to kick in, all the way through pct
-OL K1NGSBLOOD: as recommended start through pct. I know its natural and probably wont effect test levels at all, but it has some things in it that show promise for POSSIBLY mitigating suppression.
-Na-DAA chelate: 3.12g something as above, and i know its data is also meh. Although its cheap so why not?
-Extra ROYAL JELLY: 3g shown to prevent damage to testes caused by 19nors
-TAURINE: 10g same as royal jelly
-Extra LONG JACK (lj:100): 400mg on top of k1ngsblood.
-PREGNENOLONE: 200mg sublingual in morning.
-ANADROL: 100mg for 8 weeks.
-OL K1NGSGUARD: as recommended
-TUDCA: 1G added on top of k1ngsguard
-NAC: 3g
i hope to do pre, during, pct, and 2month post pct bloods and see were LH, FSH, e2, testosterone, etc, and chose anadrol only since it obviously can't convert to test or estrogen, is fast acting, and considered highly supressive. So this way on the bloodwork, i know any testosterone or e2 is what im producing.
BBiceps
Well-known member
Very cool, good luck!
kl1234
Member
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I have not, but I have a very realible source of for it in powder. There are so much positive benefits for low dose naltrexone (LDN), such as increased testosterone, benefits for autoimmune diseases, reduce anxiety, decreases depression, increase overall well being, etc so I though why not add it.
One thing you have to be careful with is keeping dose VERY low (below 1mg a night and seems 5mg or less a week is optimal), and that is has no fillers that would slow down digestion(almost always does, so be careful), make sure you dont consume it with something that would slow down digestion, and dose it as close as you can to when you fall asleep.
81dcs
Member
If u do go this route, please let us know if and where u r gonna log this, thanks
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Its gonna be a bit out. Recently started a cycle (obviously not the one i laid out) that will be 14 weeks. Plus im a stickler for not doing to many cycle to often. ill follow the simple time-on+pct+1month=time-off. i do 6 week pcts, and you have to add 2 weeks for esters to clear. So 26 weeks out, if i have the funds then, i should. Also i probably wont log thb. I just dont have time for that, but i may post up bloodwork, we'll see.
Hyde
Legend
DAA can hurt - I’ve read studies showing it only raised test in with ultra low levels. I think anyone over ~400 actually had LOWERED total test taking DAA.
Also UDCA studies showed diminshed returns at 1,200mg/day vs 900. So 1g TUDCA is like the sweet spot - you might consider only taking 750/day atop the Kings Blood. If you wanted to pinch the pennies lol.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Regarding the daa, the studies used different forms so its really hard to tell. I threw it in there as why not thing. As for tudca yes your correct, but im still gonna shoot for the 1.2g
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Double post