Chemistry Question - Need Help!!

[Number 10]

This started as a question on another thread, but I think it deserves a standalone discussion to hopefully get a definitive scientific explanation. It all came about on a thread I started regarding switching esters based on work/life commitments. The below is copy and pasted:

Generally everyone talks about half life of esters as it being out of your system, and blood concentrations etc, but isn't the main difference with esters how quickly they are released into the blood stream, not necessarily excreted out of it?

From a chemical aspect, doesn't the length of the ester mean it takes test longer to break down and be released into the bloodstream? In which case, once it has been released into the bloodstream, shouldn't it just have same the chemical half life of pure testosterone?

Otherwise, looking at the build up in the blood stream based on half life's, and active levels of test at 500mg per week for Cyp over 10 weeks I made a rough half life calculator, these go well over the levels of taking 700mg prop a week even based on EOD. There should also be no longer kick in period for Cyp because your test levels on Cyp are always higher than they are on prop by day 8.

The active "substance" in prop, Cyp, E etc is the same, so there shouldn't be a difference there. This leads me to a few key issues I just can't get my head around:

1) Either a lot of the stuff I've read about esters is wrong, and the half life is how long it takes to release that amount from the depot into the bloodstream, not be secreted from the bloodstream.

2) If (1) is wrong, then everyone is dosing either prop too low or Cyp/enanthate (very very small difference based on percentage drop per day) far too high. I can't think that's right because the build up of levels over 10 weeks of 500mg test E/Cyp are huge!

3) If I am right and ester is about release into the bloodstream, then a lot of the calculations done and other articles etc available are wrong, because one in the bloodstream (i.e. the ester is gone) then it should have the half life/same secretion profile as unaltered/unesterified test (which is in the hours not days?!).

4) I'm totally wrong and some crazy clever scientist is going to show me exactly how and why!!

I want to get to the bottom of it as it's blown my mind over the last few days - looking forward to some help!!

 

[GeekPoop]

I was told off in a thread by a claim "you can feel the effects of testosterone within 45mins of injecting"

I received a C+ in chemistry so subbed for chemistry lessons

 

[SuperPro]

I'm very interested in this. I have always heard the old "test e/c takes about 4-6 weeks before it does anything" but that makes no sense to me. I'm on my second cycle using test e and I feel like I can feel it within the first week. I have used an SD kicker both times but I've also done SD without test and it wasn't the same at all.

 

[pro520roost]

I received a C+ in chemistry so subbed for chemistry lessons

I received a F in chemistry so subbed also

 

[booneman77]

Been subbed all day. I took chem twice ha. Got an a the second time but chem and biochem are very different. Solid questions here so I can't wait to see some legit answers hopefuly

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

I got As in all my chemistry classes. This is a very interesting topic and I do believe you're correct. I'm on my first injectable cycle now (Tren E) and I definitely felt different from that first pin. Increased hardness, muscle fullness, pumps and vascularity all within the first week. Also a slight strength increase. There's no way this could've been a placebo effect.

 

[technique88]

Check out this article on esters...

http://www.isteroids.com/steroid-esters/

Pretty interesting stuff. Esterfication is not based on how long it takes for it to be excreted out...it deals with the release into the blood stream. That being said, hydrolysis of esters take place over time. If you inject 500mg of test e, te body will slowly hydrolysize the enanthate ester causing a slow release. The body does not hydrolysize all of the enanthate esters at once leading to 500mg of test surging into the body.

To make it simple think of it like this...your body's esterase enzymes have to breakdown each testosterone + enanthate ester individually. This process takes time causing the extended active life of testosterone.

You can also relate it to this...if your drink 10 beers your liver metabolizes the alcohol at about 1 oz per hour. It doesn't metabolize the entire set of drinks at once.

The enanthate ester forms an assembly line of testosterone. Each test+e waits in line to be hydrolysized rendering testosterone free if enanthate and ready to act on the androgen receptors.

If I have explained this in a very weird way let me know and I can try to re-word things.

 

[tinytony]

Check out this article on esters...

http://www.isteroids.com/steroid-esters/

Pretty interesting stuff. Esterfication is not based on how long it takes for it to be excreted out...it deals with the release into the blood stream. That being said, hydrolysis of esters take place over time. If you inject 500mg of test e, te body will slowly hydrolysize the enanthate ester causing a slow release. The body does not hydrolysize all of the enanthate esters at once leading to 500mg of test surging into the body.

To make it simple think of it like this...your body's esterase enzymes have to breakdown each testosterone + enanthate ester individually. This process takes time causing the extended active life of testosterone.

You can also relate it to this...if your drink 10 beers your liver metabolizes the alcohol at about 1 oz per hour. It doesn't metabolize the entire set of drinks at once.

The enanthate ester forms an assembly line of testosterone. Each test+e waits in line to be hydrolysized rendering testosterone free if enanthate and ready to act on the androgen receptors.

If I have explained this in a very weird way let me know and I can try to re-word things.

This is exactly how it seemed in my mind.

 

[Number 10]

Cheers for the feedback on this technique, and appreciate you going to the trouble of putting an article up. The problem I have with that article is that he is confusing his messages and isn't actually referencing studies to "prove" his claims, merely to "support" his position on things, which I still don't think is wholly accurate. That said, it is very well written and persuasive if you hadn't been reading around. It was 10 years or so ago, but I got a top mark available in the UK in chemistry (A*) and biology, although admittedly nothing like this was covered!

My problem is that testosterone is testosterone, irrespective of the ester it is attached to. It is inactive as an ester, which he does state, so therefore esterification can have no bearing once it becomes "active", because the ester has been cleaved/broken off/removed. The addition of an ester, and the principle behind adding an ester, is purely to do with controlling the speed of release into the bloodstream because of the speed at which raw/pure testosterone is either metabolised or secreted from the bloodstream. This causes an issue in the world of medicine where testosterone injections are used to treat hypogonadism/low test etc, therefore the addition of an ester causes the release of testosterone over a longer period, thereby lowering injection frequency from daily to weekly.

With that in mind, and looking at half-life’s etc, the half-life stated must be the half-life of the ester, and not the half-life of the active substance. That would mean that for something like prop (taking a half-life of 4.5 days), 4.5 days after a 200mg shot approximately 100mg of testosterone has been cleaved of its ester and has become "active". That is not the same as saying 100mg of testosterone has been secreted from the system and only 100mg remains, because the remaining 100mg is still "inactive" due to its ester. There will obviously be a slight lag from point of injection to initial release and build up in the system prior to you beginning to metabolise/secrete testosterone, which is why almost all studies tend to say that levels peak 24 - 48 hours after an injection (for single injections).

My other issue with the article is that he brings in "everyone's" experience of gynocaemastic effects on longer estered steroids vs their shorter estered counterparts. Again, I don't believe this is anything to do with the ester, but more to do with the injection frequency and hormonal levels over the course of a cycle. My understanding is that gyno symptoms aren't specifically to do with a set estrogen level within the blood (e.g. there is no magic number that you reach that causes you to grow tits) but more so to do with the balance of ratios of estrogen to testosterone (put simply) in your system.

Based on the statement above, prop is always going to give less in the way of gyno effects because of the injection frequency that all users undertake. No-one ever talks of a cycle of prop based on one shot of 700mg per week, but more likely 100mg ED or 200mg EOD at the limits (though lots on here will say that you should do it ED for the best results). By undertaking that sort of injection frequency, you are always maintaining a high ratio of testosterone to estrogen (again this is put simply), which is going to be responsible for the "hardening effects" and low water retention. Because prop is released quickly, when you reach the end of a cycle, you are straight into PCT normally within 2 - 3 days of your last shot, meaning estrogenic effects never materialise.

Enanthate or cypionate on the other hand are often dosed at one shot per week, meaning that over the course of that week testosterone is metabolised/convereted to estrogen (amongst other things/secreted from your system) and because there are no shots ED/EOD to “top up” your testosterone levels, the ratio becomes much lower. Added to this, your natural production is shut down because of the introduction of external testosterone and its effect on the HPTA axis, meaning you can’t self-regulate the balance. My belief is that if the injection frequencies of both esters were the same (daily or weekly), then the resulting effects would be the same (hardness, water retention, gyno etc), albeit with differing time periods before results are noticed.

If anyone out there can give me an approximate half-life/secretion time of unesterified testosterone, then I will build a mathematical model to help show the real differences between esters. I know how to work out the release profile from ester to active, but still struggling to mathematically state what happens to it from there to prove my point on estrogenic effects.

 

[technique88]

There is debate a to the exact half life but for what I have read it ranges from 10-100 minutes.

 

[Number 10]

There is debate a to the exact half life but for what I have read it ranges from 10-100 minutes.

Yeah, cheers for your response I'd read the same, and gollowing my earlier post, I've done a bit more research and a few more calculations, and that's cemented my views that I'm onto something.

Based on a half-life of 4.5 days (108 hours) for prop, then the hourly rate of release will be approximately 0.64% of what is esterified, leaving 99.36% esterified. So for a single 200mg shot of prop, within an hour 1.28mg of prop has been "cleaved" and is available within your system. The following hour, 0.64% of 198.72mg is released, equating to a further 1.27mg. Studies I've read (and technique confirms!) tend to give a range for the half-life of testosterone of 10 - 100 minutes. For the sake of ease, taking this as an hour, I ran the numbers quickly to see when the systemic peak is following an injection of prop, and it is actually at 7 hours, when the "released by not secreted/metabolised" level reaches 2.46mg testosterone. It then begins a decline again, and at 96 hours (4 days), there is 1.4mg "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system, with 112.25mg of estered test still to be "cleaved". After 8 days (192 hours), the amount of "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system is at 0.76mg, with 58.33mg still to be "cleaved".

Looking at enanthate, and using a half-life of 10.5 days (252 hours), then the hourly release rate will be approximately 0.27%, which equates to a systemic peak at between 7 and 9 hours of 1.08mg of "released but not secreted/metabolised test" based on a 200mg single shot. After 4 days, levels are at 0.85mg, and after 8 days, levels are at 0.65mg with 117.94mg still to be "cleaved". On this basis, enanthate shows a "steadier" release rate, with a much smaller difference between its initial peak of 1.08mg and its level after 8 days of 0.65mg. However, looking at how much will be metabolised into estrogen, the rate of release likely isn't quick enough to maintain the hormonal balance resulting in wetter gains.

Factoring this into a proper cycle, comparing identical amounts of testosterone (ignoring ester weight) of 700mg per week over a 12 week cycle with an ED profile for prop and EW profile for enanthate, this shows the following results:

Test prop reaches its maximum systemic level of 8.77mg at 7 weeks, 3 days and 2 hours into the cycle, and holds that level for the remainder of the cycle following each injection. It is however reaching levels of 8mg within 15 days and 4 hours of the first shot however, with only very small increases beyond that point to reach its maximum. After 7 days, peak levels have already reached 2.96mg. Following a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are back down around 0.03mg, with 2.23mg still to be "cleaved".

Enanthate on the other hand, reaches its maximum systemic level of 10.18mg between 5 and 6 hours after its final shot at the beginning of week 12. Right up to that point, levels are still climbing, therefore peak levels have not been reached. After 14 days (just before 3rd shot), levels are only at 3.97mg before peaking at 7.66mg a few hours later just after the 3rd shot. After 7 days (just before 2nd shot), levels are only at 2.44mg before peaking at 6.15mg between 5 and 7 hours after the second shot. At the end of a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are still at 1.03mg with 186.95mg still to be "cleaved". There are far greater swings in levels here which could be the cause of enanthate related issues on cycle.

I believe this supports my earlier post that the reason why different esters give differing results from a gyno and gains point of view is because of frequency of injections and wildly ranging values in testosterone and estrogen. Obviously, if you pin more regularly, you smooth the curve out, but it is also my belief (unless someone can point out a flaw in the reasoning) that even using enanthate for a 12 week cycle is not sensible, given the levels of the ester remaining in your body even following PCT, and the fact that it still technically hasn't reached its "peak" in your system.

A different question posed by this is, is enanthate basically only suited to staying on testosterone long term and testosterone replacement therapy where after a longer period, much more stable and manageable blood levels will be achieved?! Conversely, prop/very short esters or testosterone suspension are the only things suited to cycling (up to 12 weeks) and are the only ones that should be used as such?

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Yeah, cheers for your response I'd read the same, and gollowing my earlier post, I've done a bit more research and a few more calculations, and that's cemented my views that I'm onto something.

Based on a half-life of 4.5 days (108 hours) for prop, then the hourly rate of release will be approximately 0.64% of what is esterified, leaving 99.36% esterified. So for a single 200mg shot of prop, within an hour 1.28mg of prop has been "cleaved" and is available within your system. The following hour, 0.64% of 198.72mg is released, equating to a further 1.27mg. Studies I've read (and technique confirms!) tend to give a range for the half-life of testosterone of 10 - 100 minutes. For the sake of ease, taking this as an hour, I ran the numbers quickly to see when the systemic peak is following an injection of prop, and it is actually at 7 hours, when the "released by not secreted/metabolised" level reaches 2.46mg testosterone. It then begins a decline again, and at 96 hours (4 days), there is 1.4mg "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system, with 112.25mg of estered test still to be "cleaved". After 8 days (192 hours), the amount of "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system is at 0.76mg, with 58.33mg still to be "cleaved".

Looking at enanthate, and using a half-life of 10.5 days (252 hours), then the hourly release rate will be approximately 0.27%, which equates to a systemic peak at between 7 and 9 hours of 1.08mg of "released but not secreted/metabolised test" based on a 200mg single shot. After 4 days, levels are at 0.85mg, and after 8 days, levels are at 0.65mg with 117.94mg still to be "cleaved". On this basis, enanthate shows a "steadier" release rate, with a much smaller difference between its initial peak of 1.08mg and its level after 8 days of 0.65mg. However, looking at how much will be metabolised into estrogen, the rate of release likely isn't quick enough to maintain the hormonal balance resulting in wetter gains.

Factoring this into a proper cycle, comparing identical amounts of testosterone (ignoring ester weight) of 700mg per week over a 12 week cycle with an ED profile for prop and EW profile for enanthate, this shows the following results:

Test prop reaches its maximum systemic level of 8.77mg at 7 weeks, 3 days and 2 hours into the cycle, and holds that level for the remainder of the cycle following each injection. It is however reaching levels of 8mg within 15 days and 4 hours of the first shot however, with only very small increases beyond that point to reach its maximum. After 7 days, peak levels have already reached 2.96mg. Following a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are back down around 0.03mg, with 2.23mg still to be "cleaved".

Enanthate on the other hand, reaches its maximum systemic level of 10.18mg between 5 and 6 hours after its final shot at the beginning of week 12. Right up to that point, levels are still climbing, therefore peak levels have not been reached. After 14 days (just before 3rd shot), levels are only at 3.97mg before peaking at 7.66mg a few hours later just after the 3rd shot. After 7 days (just before 2nd shot), levels are only at 2.44mg before peaking at 6.15mg between 5 and 7 hours after the second shot. At the end of a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are still at 1.03mg with 186.95mg still to be "cleaved". There are far greater swings in levels here which could be the cause of enanthate related issues on cycle.

I believe this supports my earlier post that the reason why different esters give differing results from a gyno and gains point of view is because of frequency of injections and wildly ranging values in testosterone and estrogen. Obviously, if you pin more regularly, you smooth the curve out, but it is also my belief (unless someone can point out a flaw in the reasoning) that even using enanthate for a 12 week cycle is not sensible, given the levels of the ester remaining in your body even following PCT, and the fact that it still technically hasn't reached its "peak" in your system.

A different question posed by this is, is enanthate basically only suited to staying on testosterone long term and testosterone replacement therapy where after a longer period, much more stable and manageable blood levels will be achieved?! Conversely, prop/very short esters or testosterone suspension are the only things suited to cycling (up to 12 weeks) and are the only ones that should be used as such?

My mind is blown...

 

[Number 10]

My mind is blown...

Sorry, it was a longish post but felt it needed to get it all out there. Does it make any sort of sense?

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Sorry, it was a longish post but felt it needed to get it all out there. Does it make any sort of sense?

Of course total sense. I can't quite comprehend all of it cuz its rather complex but I get the gist of what you're saying. I have a question for u since you're smarter than me on this. I'm blasting and cruising now, what do u think I should use as far as test for then granted i won't b going into pct anytime soon? Test prop or test e? I'd assume test e according to your previous post. But what about going into my contest prep since I need the test to clear a month b4 the show? Should I get on test prop instead?

 

[technique88]

Yeah, cheers for your response I'd read the same, and gollowing my earlier post, I've done a bit more research and a few more calculations, and that's cemented my views that I'm onto something. Based on a half-life of 4.5 days (108 hours) for prop, then the hourly rate of release will be approximately 0.64% of what is esterified, leaving 99.36% esterified. So for a single 200mg shot of prop, within an hour 1.28mg of prop has been "cleaved" and is available within your system. The following hour, 0.64% of 198.72mg is released, equating to a further 1.27mg. Studies I've read (and technique confirms!) tend to give a range for the half-life of testosterone of 10 - 100 minutes. For the sake of ease, taking this as an hour, I ran the numbers quickly to see when the systemic peak is following an injection of prop, and it is actually at 7 hours, when the "released by not secreted/metabolised" level reaches 2.46mg testosterone. It then begins a decline again, and at 96 hours (4 days), there is 1.4mg "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system, with 112.25mg of estered test still to be "cleaved". After 8 days (192 hours), the amount of "released but not secreted/metabolised" testosterone in the system is at 0.76mg, with 58.33mg still to be "cleaved". Looking at enanthate, and using a half-life of 10.5 days (252 hours), then the hourly release rate will be approximately 0.27%, which equates to a systemic peak at between 7 and 9 hours of 1.08mg of "released but not secreted/metabolised test" based on a 200mg single shot. After 4 days, levels are at 0.85mg, and after 8 days, levels are at 0.65mg with 117.94mg still to be "cleaved". On this basis, enanthate shows a "steadier" release rate, with a much smaller difference between its initial peak of 1.08mg and its level after 8 days of 0.65mg. However, looking at how much will be metabolised into estrogen, the rate of release likely isn't quick enough to maintain the hormonal balance resulting in wetter gains. Factoring this into a proper cycle, comparing identical amounts of testosterone (ignoring ester weight) of 700mg per week over a 12 week cycle with an ED profile for prop and EW profile for enanthate, this shows the following results: Test prop reaches its maximum systemic level of 8.77mg at 7 weeks, 3 days and 2 hours into the cycle, and holds that level for the remainder of the cycle following each injection. It is however reaching levels of 8mg within 15 days and 4 hours of the first shot however, with only very small increases beyond that point to reach its maximum. After 7 days, peak levels have already reached 2.96mg. Following a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are back down around 0.03mg, with 2.23mg still to be "cleaved". Enanthate on the other hand, reaches its maximum systemic level of 10.18mg between 5 and 6 hours after its final shot at the beginning of week 12. Right up to that point, levels are still climbing, therefore peak levels have not been reached. After 14 days (just before 3rd shot), levels are only at 3.97mg before peaking at 7.66mg a few hours later just after the 3rd shot. After 7 days (just before 2nd shot), levels are only at 2.44mg before peaking at 6.15mg between 5 and 7 hours after the second shot. At the end of a 4 week PCT, systemic levels are still at 1.03mg with 186.95mg still to be "cleaved". There are far greater swings in levels here which could be the cause of enanthate related issues on cycle. I believe this supports my earlier post that the reason why different esters give differing results from a gyno and gains point of view is because of frequency of injections and wildly ranging values in testosterone and estrogen. Obviously, if you pin more regularly, you smooth the curve out, but it is also my belief (unless someone can point out a flaw in the reasoning) that even using enanthate for a 12 week cycle is not sensible, given the levels of the ester remaining in your body even following PCT, and the fact that it still technically hasn't reached its "peak" in your system. A different question posed by this is, is enanthate basically only suited to staying on testosterone long term and testosterone replacement therapy where after a longer period, much more stable and manageable blood levels will be achieved?! Conversely, prop/very short esters or testosterone suspension are the only things suited to cycling (up to 12 weeks) and are the only ones that should be used as such?

The answer is yes to your question. Enanthate and cupionate were not developed for us fellow steroid users. As we all know, they were developed an intended for medical use for various different diseases and conditions. Most if these conditions require long term therapeutic use of testosterone, usually years of therapy, not 12 weeks. Your calculations seem very spot on, give or take actual in vivo conditions that vary according to each individual. As a mathematical model, it is a nice skeleton overview of how testosterone will act.

Steroid users whether we want to admit it or not, factor a lot of bioscience into our decisions. The general bro science consensus is if you want to cycle for 12 weeks use test e. Under that use prop etc...

I find this false...when I cycled test enan, I honesty felt like I was just getting started at 11-13 weeks into the cycle. (The cycle ended at 15
Weeks). Of course I made gains the entire way through, regardless of peak concentration, I still hAd large amounts of testosterone floating around.

After learning from a physical real life trial of test, I wouldn't cycle test e for any less than 20 weeks. Ideally, test e is ideal for cruising. Cruising mimics a Long term therapeutic use of testosterone (medical use) but obviously with larger doses. At A time of blasting, test suspension or TNE with oral steroids would be ideal.

If you want to cycle under 3 months, prop would be ideal. For individuals trying to cruise or cycle for roughly 6 months, test e would be best choice.

 

[booneman77]

The answer is yes to your question. Enanthate and cupionate were not developed for us fellow steroid users. As we all know, they were developed an intended for medical use for various different diseases and conditions. Most if these conditions require long term therapeutic use of testosterone, usually years of therapy, not 12 weeks. Your calculations seem very spot on, give or take actual in vivo conditions that vary according to each individual. As a mathematical model, it is a nice skeleton overview of how testosterone will act. Steroid users whether we want to admit it or not, factor a lot of bioscience into our decisions. The general bro science consensus is if you want to cycle for 12 weeks use test e. Under that use prop etc... I find this false...when I cycled test enan, I honesty felt like I was just getting started at 11-13 weeks into the cycle. (The cycle ended at 15 Weeks). Of course I made gains the entire way through, regardless of peak concentration, I still hAd large amounts of testosterone floating around. After learning from a physical real life trial of test, I wouldn't cycle test e for any less than 20 weeks. Ideally, test e is ideal for cruising. Cruising mimics a Long term therapeutic use of testosterone (medical use) but obviously with larger doses. At A time of blasting, test suspension or TNE with oral steroids would be ideal. If you want to cycle under 3 months, prop would be ideal. For individuals trying to cruise or cycle for roughly 6 months, test e would be best choice.

Awesome post. Just what we were looking for. Keep it coming guys.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

My questions were answered now. Thanks guys. This is really interesting though, I've definitely learned more.

 

[Number 10]

Hey all, just got back from a trip to NYC and decided to pick this up again.

Looking into it even further following some reading around testosterone suspensions and some general research, I believe that the half-life of "raw" testosterone is probably wrong in my calculations at an hour, and is more likely closer to 10 minutes, based on the fact that standard ranges for testosterone levels in males are between 300 and 1,000 nanograms/decilitre without supplementation. This would equate to a blood level (assuming the body contains approximately 5 litres of blood) of 0.015 - 0.05mg of testosterone at normal levels. With the half-life of testosterone at 10 minutes, this means that blood concentrations are:

1) A much more stable systemic level in terms of fluctuation following injection, especially for prop due to the frequency of injections
2) A much lower peak level for both E and prop
3) A much more sensible peak value over the cycle (92,000 ng/dl for prop based on 4.61mg and 106,000 ng/dl for enanthate based on 5.33mg - approximately 92x and 106x the normal blood concentration levels respectively)

This, in my belief, further supports the reason why it must be the half-life of the ester and not the half-life of the actual testosterone which is being incorrectly quoted, because blood concentrations over a 12 week cycle if it was a "whole compound half-life" would be in the magnitude of 20,000+ times the maximum level without supplementation, which surely cannot be correct!? An interesting thing if this is correct is that after a 4 week PCT, the test level for prop has dropped back to bang on the top end of normal values without supplementation, however the level for enanthate is still at 10 times the top end of normal values without supplementation. This is surely going to lead to adverse effects with enanthate following PCT unless another cycle is started, or a much longer PCT is required!?

I'm not sure how this discussion around esters affects other steroids (tren etc) as I have just focused on test, but I would imagine it would have a similar bearing. Again, I could have my maths/theory/baseline information incorrect, but as always I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone thinks about this. Once I'm sure about my reasoning and theory, I'll build a calculator and upload it to the site so that anyone who wants to can pull it apart and draw their own conclusions on the best way to go. I won't be using long esters again though!

One thing I still can't get my head around is that even with the half-life at 10 minutes in my calculator, it's still showing it to be 100x above the normal amounts. I would guess this to be right, but I'm no doctor so can't be sure. I'd love to do some blood tests based on this to see if I can prove it.

Will be starting a prop cycle on Monday so will log that - thought I'd use the Xmas calories to good effect and cut with Winny in the last 4 weeks of a 14 week cycle!

 

[jbryand101b]

Testosterone has a half life of about 4 hours.

And cliffs anyone?

 

[Number 10]

Cliffs?!