Cardarine and Lisinopril together

[TrichoS]

Hey guys, long time lifter, new member. Had to tone things down last year after some hypertension came on strong while preparing for a meet. Anyways, Doc put me on lisinopril. started at 10mg and finally 30mg per day is keeping bp in a reasonable range.

Now that the competing days are over, Im just trying to lose some fat and get aesthetic. Years powerlifting I never once cared about abs or aesthetics, after all those hours and sweat and blood Ive put under the iron, Im curious now what my physique can look like. Im not interested in running anything crazy anymore, but Im very curious about Cardarine and its effects Ive read so much about.

Has anyone run Cardarine while using an ace inhibitor before and did you notice any weird sides? I read somewhere that Cardarine can also act on the angiotensin enzyme but can't seem to find that article again.

Any input appreciated!

Stats if interested:
6 foot
235
14 percent

685/ 435/740
S/B/D

 

[StarScream66]

I never recommend Cardarine to anyone. It's a drug that the pharmaceutical company stopped trials of because the animals they were giving it to got such aggressive cancers.

GW501516 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But, some people swear by it. But you need to be careful running stuff with ACE inhibitors. Why did your doc put you on an ACE inhibitor in the first place? Was your bp through the roof?

 

[TrichoS]

Yes, blood pressure went up to 185/100 or so and even after coming off it stayed around 160/95.

It was entirely my fault. Played with fire and got burned. I was running long time frames looking to move up the ladder and my cruises weren't really much of a cruise at all. Couple that with lots of ment and Tren A and that was that. Irresponsible use from a win at all costs mentality.

I appreciate the heads up on that though. Ill stick with diet and the old fashioned way.

 

[Mathb33]

I never recommend Cardarine to anyone. It's a drug that the pharmaceutical company stopped trials of because the animals they were giving it to got such aggressive cancers.

GW501516 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But, some people swear by it. But you need to be careful running stuff with ACE inhibitors. Why did your doc put you on an ACE inhibitor in the first place? Was your bp through the roof?

this gw causing cancer is absurd and UNPROVEN. are sarms possibly risky? Yes all of them obviously. But jesus bro when you drop studies without thinking a second I can’t help myself but get annoyed... if you take a look at this idiotic study, you’ll see the the equivalent dosages that rats were testing would be several hundreds up to thousands of MGs per day for human. Does that sound like any proof to you? It’s absolutely ridiculous. Take 75 times the recommend dosages of a Tylenol and see what’ll happen?

 

[MadStax]

Many, many folks have taken Cardarine with zero sides and great success! Myself included. I did a lot of reading before I took the plunge, because I am ridiculously strict about what goes into my body! I don't even like taking Tylenol.

All evidence points to 20mg for eight weeks being completely and entirely within the range of quite safe. You start getting near risky around 40mg, but would need to take that dose for quite some time before you're in any real trouble.

I myself used only 10mg per day and am thoroughly convinced the stuff is a great addition to a strict diet and workout plan. There is no way I could have dropped my fat as fast as I did without it!

I'll also add that my partner had great success with it as well, though she didn't take it for quite as long as I did.

 

[StarScream66]

this gw causing cancer is absurd and UNPROVEN. are sarms possibly risky?

That's complete bullsh!t bro. These were studies done by the company that was MANUFACTURING the drug. They stopped all development on it because of the excessive amounts of cancer in animals.

By 2007, GW501516 had completed two phase II clinical studies and other studies relating to obesity, diabetes, dyslipidemia and cardiovascular disease,[10][11] but GSK abandoned further development of the drug in 2007 for reasons which were not disclosed at the time.[12] It later emerged that the drug was discontinued because animal testing showed that the drug caused cancer to develop rapidly in several organs, at dosages of 3 mg/kg/day in both mice and rats.[2][13][14]

RAT CARCINOGENICITY STUDY WITH GW501516, A
PPAR DELTA AGONIST.
L. E. Geiger1, W. S. Dunsford2, D. J. Lewis2, C. Brennan3, K. C. Liu3 and S. J.
Newsholme1. 1Safety Assessment, GlaxoSmithKline, King of Prussia, PA, 2Safety
Assessment, GlaxoSmithKline, Ware, United Kingdom and 3Huntingdon Life Sciences,
Huntingdon, United Kingdom.
GW501516, a non-genotoxic PPARδ agonist, was assessed for carcinogenic potential
by daily administration (oral gavage) to Han Wistar rats for a period of 104
weeks. Males were given 0, 5, 15 or 30 mg/kg/day for the first 6 weeks of the study.
For the remainder of the study males were given 0, 5, 20 or 40 mg/kg/day. Females
were given 0, 3, 10 or 20 mg/kg/day for the entire study. GW501516 produced test
article-related neoplastic findings in multiple tissues at all doses. Increased mortality
was seen with females given GW501516 at all doses and uterine endometrial
adenocarcinoma contributed to death in a high proportion of these animals.
Neoplasms considered test-article related occurred in the liver (hepatocellular adenoma
at ≥ 10 mg/kg/day), urinary bladder (transitional cell carcinoma in males
given 20 and 40 mg/kg/day), thyroid (follicular cell adenoma at ≥ 3 mg/kg/day and
carcinoma in males at ≥ 20 mg/kg/day), tongue (squamous cell papilloma in males
at 5 mg/kg/day and 40 mg/kg/day), stomach (squamous cell papilloma in males at
≥ 5 mg/kg/day and a female at 20 mg/kg/day, and carcinoma in a male at 40
mg/kg/day and a female at 3 mg/kg/day), skin (inverted squamous cell papilloma in
males at ≥ 5 mg/kg/day and females at 3 or 20 mg/kg/day), Harderian glands (adenoma
in males at ≥ 5 mg/kg/day and adenocarcinoma in a male at 40 mg/kg/day),
testes (interstitial cell adenoma at 40 mg/kg/day), ovary (Sertoli cell adenoma at ≥
10 mg/kg/day) and uterus (polyp and endometrial adenocarcinoma at ≥ 3
mg/kg/day). Some of the tumor types observed in this study have not been reported
with either PPARα or PPARγ agonists and may reflect tumor promotion mediated
through PPARδ agonism.

MOUSE CARCINOGENICITY STUDY WITH GW501516,
A PPAR DELTA AGONIST.
S. J. Newsholme1, W. S. Dunsford2, T. Brodie2, C. Brennan3, M. Brown3 and L.
E. Geiger1. 1Safety Assessment, GlaxoSmithKline, King of Prussia, PA, 2Safety
Assessment, GlaxoSmithKline, Ware, United Kingdom and 3Huntingdon Life Sciences,
Huntingdon, United Kingdom.
GW501516, a non-genotoxic PPARδ agonist, was assessed for carcinogenic potential
by daily administration (oral gavage) to CD1 mice for 104 weeks at doses of 0,
10, 30, 60 or 80 mg/kg/day. Survival was decreased at doses ≥ 30 mg/kg/day.
Neoplasms considered related to test article occurred in liver (hepatocellular carcinoma
at ≥ 30 mg/kg/day and adenoma at ≥ 10 mg/kg/day), stomach (squamous
cell carcinoma at all doses) and combined squamous cell tumours at all doses (squamous
cell papilloma and carcinoma, and keratoacanthoma). There have been conflicting
reports in the literature regarding the effects of PPARδ on epithelial cell
proliferation. The results of this study demonstrate an increase in proliferation in
certain epithelial cell populations, but do not support a role for PPARδ in colon
carcinogenesis. The squamous cell tumors observed in this study have not been reported
with either PPARα or PPARγ agonists and may reflect tumor promotion
mediated through PPARδ agonism.

It's extremely clear that they stopped the trials because of the cancer causing effects of cardinine. Believe what you want, but the evidence is there.

Source:
Society of Toxicology - 48th Annual Meeting

 

[Mathb33]

Many, many folks have taken Cardarine with zero sides and great success! Myself included. I did a lot of reading before I took the plunge, because I am ridiculously strict about what goes into my body! I don't even like taking Tylenol.

All evidence points to 20mg for eight weeks being completely and entirely within the range of quite safe. You start getting near risky around 40mg, but would need to take that dose for quite some time before you're in any real trouble.

I myself used only 10mg per day and am thoroughly convinced the stuff is a great addition to a strict diet and workout plan. There is no way I could have dropped my fat as fast as I did without it!

I'll also add that my partner had great success with it as well, though she didn't take it for quite as long as I did.

Exactly. Also one thing he didn’t mention about the studies is the magical aspect of cardarine about lipids. It’s ability to balance out healthy lipids is INCREDIBLE. 10mg of cardarine on heavy cycle managed to keep my lipids within range.

 

[StarScream66]

Many, many folks have taken Cardarine with zero sides and great success!

That's all well and good. You can smoke for years and years and have no problems, but eventually you will develop lung cancer. Cancers are very slow to develop in humans and can take years and even decades to show up. Why would you risk your life for this compound that shows blatantly obvious signs that it can cause cancer to develop?

 

[MadStax]

That's complete bullsh!t bro. These were studies done by the company that was MANUFACTURING the drug. They stopped all development on it because of the excessive amounts of cancer in animals.







It's extremely clear that they stopped the trials because of the cancer causing effects of cardinine. Believe what you want, but the evidence is there.

Source:
Society of Toxicology - 48th Annual Meeting

Bro, come on. They were dosing 3mg/kg for months on end. We are talking fractions of a mg/kg for eight weeks.

 

[StarScream66]

Exactly. Also one thing he didn’t mention about the studies is the magical aspect of cardarine about lipids. It’s ability to balance out healthy lipids is INCREDIBLE. 10mg of cardarine on heavy cycle managed to keep my lipids within range.

That's total irrelevant to it's cancer causing potential. Going back to the smoking examine, nicotine has tons of nootropic benefits, so you could smoke cigarettes to get them, but eventually, it's going to bite you in the ass.

Nicotine benefits, dosage, and side effects

Nicotine: The latest and most important research. Expert analysis and supporting evidence for practical effects, potential risks, and more.

examine.com

 

[MadStax]

That's total irrelevant to it's cancer causing potential. Going back to the smoking examine, nicotine has tons of nootropic benefits, so you could smoke cigarettes to get them, but eventually, it's going to bite you in the ass.

Nicotine benefits, dosage, and side effects

Nicotine: The latest and most important research. Expert analysis and supporting evidence for practical effects, potential risks, and more.

examine.com

Actually, there is zero evidence that nicotine causes cancer.

 

[StarScream66]

I'm not going to put this in quotes because it truncates the important parts.

Effects of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta on placentation, adiposity, and colorectal cancer

Abstract
Targeting of the nuclear prostaglandin receptor peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta (PPARdelta) by homologous recombination results in placental defects and frequent (>90%) midgestation lethality. Surviving PPARdelta(-/-) mice exhibit a striking reduction in adiposity relative to wild-type levels. This effect is not reproduced in mice harboring an adipose tissue-specific deletion of PPARdelta, and thus likely reflects peripheral PPARdelta functions in systemic lipid metabolism. Finally, we observe that PPARdelta is dispensable for polyp formation in the intestine and colon of APC(min) mice, inconsistent with its recently proposed role in the establishment of colorectal tumors. Together, these observations reveal specific roles for PPARdelta in embryo development and adipocyte physiology, but not cancer.

The pictures of the tumors that developed and charts showing the amount of cancer and death caused is included in the study.

Effects of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta on placentation, adiposity, and colorectal cancer - PubMed

Targeting of the nuclear prostaglandin receptor peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta (PPARdelta) by homologous recombination results in placental defects and frequent (>90%) midgestation lethality. Surviving PPARdelta(-/-) mice exhibit a striking reduction in adiposity relative to wil …

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll post this again from the above study since it's hidden by the quote

GW501516 produced test
article-related neoplastic findings in multiple tissues at all doses. Increased mortality
was seen with females given GW501516 at all doses and uterine endometrial
adenocarcinoma contributed to death in a high proportion of these animals.

 

[Mathb33]

 

[Mathb33]

Cardarine Human Trials
[*Toxicity has been evaluated in long-term animal studies, showing an increase in tumour formation. These animal studies (usually performed in parallel with early clinical development) resulted in termination of the clinical development program. The increase in tumour development was not replicated in the early human studies, which used lower doses and shorter study duration, so long-term effects in humans are unknown.*](https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine)

**Human Studies**



[*Study 1, 2007*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17110604): folks were given placebo (n=6), 2.5mg (n=9) or 10mg (n=9) once daily for 2 weeks while sedentary. No significant adverse effects were noted.

[*Study 2, 2011*](https://sci-hub.tw/10.1210/jc.2011-1131): similar in scope to the first study, with administration of 2.5mg once daily or placebo (n=13). No significant adverse effects were noted and no changes in liver, muscle enzymes, creatine or protein in urine that might demonstrate kidney damage. There were significant changes (positive) to triglycerides, HDL cholesterol.

[*Study 3, 2012*](https://sci-hub.tw/10.1161/ATVBAHA.112.247890): Actually two studies, with similar results. In the core study, folks were given placebo (n=78), 2.5mg (n=48), 5mg (n=83) or 10mg (n=59). Notably, 14% were women (female rats had a higher mortality rate in Cardarine studies), but there was no differences in trends between men and women. In the exploratory study of men only, 16 subjects given 5mg and then 10mg, with 21 given placebo.

In both, LDL and triglycerides were lowered significantly, and HDL was increased. All were dose dependent. The study notes that no plateau was achieved, meaning that improvements in these numbers may have continued beyond the 12 weeks. Both studies saw improvements in insulin sensitivity and decline in fatty acid \~20%.

Presumably, all of this came with body composition benefits, but body fat% was not captured. Body weight changes were not significant (the 10mg group *gained* a kg on average).

**So What?**

That some groups received 10mg for 12 weeks is also very promising for our purposes as this is the recommended starting dose in the [PEDsR DB](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1nA_RJEXZpcvw27vpMHm4hElYO2xkVMAYwKxxalFrxx0/edit?usp=sharing), though I typically shy away from long cardarine cycles personally. Cancer was found in a human equivalent dose of 43.2mg (200lb male) in rats, so the 10mg dose represents the closest dose we have.

In all of these human trials, there was no evidence included in the journal that indicated tumor growth, benign or otherwise... they weren’t looking for it. Or perhaps it was never there to begin with.

Finally, we still do not have data on long term effects of cardarine use on humans.

 

[StarScream66]

Bro, come on. They were dosing 3mg/kg for months on end. We are talking fractions of a mg/kg for eight weeks.

That might be a fair argument. Saccharine was classified as being a carcinogen for years, but finally they discovered the original tests they did on rats was using huge dosages that weren't anywhere near what a human would use.

However, I still think it's not worth the risk. It's a research chemical where a major pharmaceutical company invested billions of dollars developing it (GSK) and then completely halted development once they started seeing the massive amount of cancer it was causing in animals. There is never going to be any further research on this compound, it's DOA. Unlike the other SARMs out there that are still in development that will have studies on safety and effectiveness, cardinine will never be looked at again.

Is it worth the risk for you to be a guinea pig for a compound like this, despite the benefits you might see? That's you're call bro. I'm just showing you the science.

 

[Iwilleattuna]

@Mathb33

Agreed. I actually believe they found a drug that not only increases performance, but treats lipid issues and bp safely. Hence, they couldn't prescribe secondary meds. They abandoned it and used scare tactics to keep it from being used.

A guy on reddit literally fixed his heart failure using this

 

[Mathb33]

@Iwilleattuna yeah this guys life story is incredible. Pretty fucking sad that doctors tell you you’re going to die and there’s nothing you can do. Crazy that he decided not to give up and do self researches on the internet, found cardarine and started using it out of despair andhe actually got better dosing cardarine

 

[Iwilleattuna]

The beauty about cardarine is that you dont have to use it everyday to feel the effects , so you can be very responsible with dosing.

Cycle for an event / time off

Pulse it on hard cardio days and or, leg/back days

Use it a few times a week

Etc

Yeah, over 30 mg for a years straight may not be smart

 

[Iwilleattuna]

@Iwilleattuna yeah this guys life story is incredible. Pretty fucking sad that doctors tell you you’re going to die and there’s nothing you can do. Crazy that he decided not to give up and do self researches on the internet, found cardarine and started using it out of despair andhe actually got better dosing cardarine

Yes sir, that's so true. Such an amazing story and my heart goes out for him. Good thing he did choose to try it

We're not allowed to treat ourselves in this world. If you do, you're just another junkie, or an "extremist". Most treatments are aimed to keep people sick. Solve one problem , create another

 

[TrichoS]

Great information on here, I really appreciate everyones replies. Does anyone have any opinions or info on taking it alongside ace inhibitors?

 

[Humbl3]

Subd for info

 

[Mathb33]

Great information on here, I really appreciate everyones replies. Does anyone have any opinions or info on taking it alongside ace inhibitors?

Angiotensin-converting enzyme being a heart meds that’s fairly strong I’d recommend you ask a doctor or something about your cardarine use. I really don’t think anyone on a forum should give advices on such an important / risky topic. Not even knows it all/doctor star scream.

 

[MadStax]

Angiotensin-converting enzyme being a heart meds that’s fairly strong I’d recommend you ask a doctor or something about your cardarine use. I really don’t think anyone on a forum should give advices on such an important / risky topic. Not even knows it all/doctor star scream.

Poor @StarScream66 he tries too hard!

I agree. We can tell you about the drug, but only your doctor should decide whether it's safe for you!

 

[bigdadybry]

I'm not going to put this in quotes because it truncates the important parts.

Effects of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta on placentation, adiposity, and colorectal cancer

Abstract
Targeting of the nuclear prostaglandin receptor peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta (PPARdelta) by homologous recombination results in placental defects and frequent (>90%) midgestation lethality. Surviving PPARdelta(-/-) mice exhibit a striking reduction in adiposity relative to wild-type levels. This effect is not reproduced in mice harboring an adipose tissue-specific deletion of PPARdelta, and thus likely reflects peripheral PPARdelta functions in systemic lipid metabolism. Finally, we observe that PPARdelta is dispensable for polyp formation in the intestine and colon of APC(min) mice, inconsistent with its recently proposed role in the establishment of colorectal tumors. Together, these observations reveal specific roles for PPARdelta in embryo development and adipocyte physiology, but not cancer.

The pictures of the tumors that developed and charts showing the amount of cancer and death caused is included in the study.

Effects of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta on placentation, adiposity, and colorectal cancer - PubMed

Targeting of the nuclear prostaglandin receptor peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta (PPARdelta) by homologous recombination results in placental defects and frequent (>90%) midgestation lethality. Surviving PPARdelta(-/-) mice exhibit a striking reduction in adiposity relative to wil …

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll post this again from the above study since it's hidden by the quote

GW501516 produced test
article-related neoplastic findings in multiple tissues at all doses. Increased mortality
was seen with females given GW501516 at all doses and uterine endometrial
adenocarcinoma contributed to death in a high proportion of these animals.

You realize this study does not support cardarine causing cancer, correct?

 

[Mathb33]

You realize this study does not support cardarine causing cancer, correct?

Please please go on.

 

[bigdadybry]

Please please go on.

I will throw out what I read into it.
I have found there are people on AM for and against cardarine, the line in the sand being "cancer". I think anyone contemplating using cardarine should educate themselves thoroughly and not just rely on opinions on this forum.

Here's what I did:
When studies are posted, I read the Abstract and the Conclusion at a minimum. When digging deeper, look at what the researchers were attempting to learn, how they test it, and how they got to their conclusions. I like to look at what type of animal was being used as it points to whether they are using mice susceptible to cancer or a type of cancer (or other genetic profile and pre-disposition). If looking at dosages, look at HED too. IF you have hours to waste, look at who funded the research (if possible, not easy).

In this article, the researchers used a genetically-modified animal. No mention of cardarine is made, only the receptor targeted by cardarine. The artificial targeting of this receptor (homologous recombination at the dna level, to null) resulted in death for some (during gestation), those that lived demonstrated lower adiposity/fat tissue. This was not observed in the subjects that had the receptor deleted (at the fat tissue level) or in the wild, demonstrating the importance of this receptor in lipid metabolism.
Lastly, that receptor can be ruled out for polyp formation with respect to colon cancer. This contradicted the researchers assumption given the receptor was reported to have a "role in the establishment of colorectal tumors."
"Together, these observations reveal specific roles for PPARδ in embryo development and adipocyte physiology, but not cancer." Keep in mind the researchers are only saying they did not see it play a role in cancer during this study, but expected it to.

The researchers concluded the receptor acts during early development and is essential for survival in embryos and it affects obesity ("pointing to PPARδ as a potential drug target candidate in the treatment of metabolic disorders"). Because of their findings and differences between previous studies, they recommend "reassessment of two previously proposed functions of this receptor: embryo implantation and colon cancer."

APCmin mice are predisposed to intestinal adenoma formation, a "mouse model for intestinal and mammary tumorigenesis" according to PubMed.

 

[Mathb33]

I will throw out what I read into it.
I have found there are people on AM for and against cardarine, the line in the sand being "cancer". I think anyone contemplating using cardarine should educate themselves thoroughly and not just rely on opinions on this forum.

Here's what I did:
When studies are posted, I read the Abstract and the Conclusion at a minimum. When digging deeper, look at what the researchers were attempting to learn, how they test it, and how they got to their conclusions. I like to look at what type of animal was being used as it points to whether they are using mice susceptible to cancer or a type of cancer (or other genetic profile and pre-disposition). If looking at dosages, look at HED too. IF you have hours to waste, look at who funded the research (if possible, not easy).

In this article, the researchers used a genetically-modified animal. No mention of cardarine is made, only the receptor targeted by cardarine. The artificial targeting of this receptor (homologous recombination at the dna level, to null) resulted in death for some (during gestation), those that lived demonstrated lower adiposity/fat tissue. This was not observed in the subjects that had the receptor deleted (at the fat tissue level) or in the wild, demonstrating the importance of this receptor in lipid metabolism.
Lastly, that receptor can be ruled out for polyp formation with respect to colon cancer. This contradicted the researchers assumption given the receptor was reported to have a "role in the establishment of colorectal tumors."
"Together, these observations reveal specific roles for PPARδ in embryo development and adipocyte physiology, but not cancer." Keep in mind the researchers are only saying they did not see it play a role in cancer during this study, but expected it to.

The researchers concluded the receptor acts during early development and is essential for survival in embryos and it affects obesity ("pointing to PPARδ as a potential drug target candidate in the treatment of metabolic disorders"). Because of their findings and differences between previous studies, they recommend "reassessment of two previously proposed functions of this receptor: embryo implantation and colon cancer."

APCmin mice are predisposed to intestinal adenoma formation, a "mouse model for intestinal and mammary tumorigenesis" according to PubMed.

And here is the difference between someone who is knowledgeable enough to read a study, and the online warriors who copy past studies while they obviously don’t understand the deep meaning of it. I appreciate your time and since my English is my second language Im limited to what I say / how poorly I can explain it. Well thought / good explanation.

 

[Hyde]

Sent you a PM.

 

[bigdadybry]

And here is the difference between someone who is knowledgeable enough to read a study, and the online warriors who copy past studies while they obviously don’t understand the deep meaning of it. I appreciate your time and since my English is my second language Im limited to what I say / how poorly I can explain it. Well thought / good explanation.

Thank you for the feedback. Please don't take my analysis as gospel, I could be wrong. I tried to analyze the research, and did it transparently, so anyone could rebuff it if there are errors.

 

[puccah8808]

Oh man, I was so allergic to lisinopril. I had a dry cough for 3 weeks straight which caused my left rib to hurt so bad. I had to hold my side every time I coughed then one morning I broke my rib coughing. Imagine getting the wind knocked out of you from the inside out.

 

[Iwilleattuna]

Oh man, I was so allergic to lisinopril. I had a dry cough for 3 weeks straight which caused my left rib to hurt so bad. I had to hold my side every time I coughed then one morning I broke my rib coughing. Imagine getting the wind knocked out of you from the inside out.

Seems like some bp meds have absolutely horrible side effects depending on the type. I'd rather just use beet root extract, celery seed extract, cardarine, low sodium, a ton of cardio and water, but seems like the genetically prone guys don't respond so easily to the natural methods.

 

[StarScream66]

And here is the difference between someone who is knowledgeable enough to read a study, and the online warriors who copy past studies while they obviously don’t understand the deep meaning of it. I appreciate your time and since my English is my second language Im limited to what I say / how poorly I can explain it. Well thought / good explanation.

You can call me a keyboard warrior or whatever makes you happy. All I did was present the evidence. You're a person with free will and can make up your mind if you want to risk taking it or not. But to me, it sounds like you're cherry picking what you want to hear.

Let's think about this logically for a second. A multibillion dollar pharmaceutical company, GlaxoSmithKline spends BILLIONS of dollars developing a drug and then drops it during the animal research phase. They didn't even make it to human trials. That, to me, says something. If you're spending that much bank to develop a drug and then completely cancel it, losing out BILLIONS of dollars, then there's probably a good reason. They don't just cancel drug development because it doesn't sound good on paper.

So for me, personally, I wouldn't risk taking it. Like I said, if you know anything about cancer, it takes DECADES to develop, not days, weeks, months or years. But, hey, like @MadStax said, maybe it's a dosage thing. Maybe GlaxoSmithKline just didn't want to take the risk. Who knows. But, the problem is we'll never know definitively because no one is ever going to look into research into this drug again because of the risk factor. So all we're ever going to have is the studies we have right now. I posted those studies. Make up your own mind. I'm not in favor of drug regulation, and I think people should have the choice to take what they please. So, all I'm saying is look at the data and decide for yourself.

 

[bigdadybry]

To be clear, GSK stopped before the expensive phase of clinical trials (phase 3) because of the cancers developed by mice from what equates to a high dose and a lifetime of use.
It makes absolute financial sense because a pharma company ideally wants a population on a drug, for the longest time possible, without solving the underlying condition, while mitigating damages.
According to an article in The New Yorker, "the only way to conclusively prove that even a lower dose would not have a similar effect on humans would be to run a seventy-year trial." I think the author was being dramatic, but the drug was at the phase of proving to the FDA it was safe, and in light of the "lifetime" of use by mice that resulted in cancer, the author took liberties (IMO).
GSK could have returned to P2 trials? But, according to their Annual Reports in the early 2000s, they had multiple PPAR agonists in the pipeline.

This post is neither for nor against the use of Cardarine, only adding info to the subject. The New Yorker article is from 2017

 

[StarScream66]

This post is neither for nor against the use of Cardarine, only adding info to the subject. The New Yorker article is from 2017

Do you have a link to this article?

Btw, I appreciate the civil discussion. We're simply having a debate here about the safety of this compound and I think both sides have valid arguments.

 

[StarScream66]

Seems like some bp meds have absolutely horrible side effects depending on the type. I'd rather just use beet root extract, celery seed extract, cardarine, low sodium, a ton of cardio and water, but seems like the genetically prone guys don't respond so easily to the natural methods.

Beta blockers are really not bad at low doses. I take 5mg of Propranolol for anxiety. I just take it as needed, although it's recommended to be taken daily. Propranolol is a very interesting drug, as it's used as a PED in competitions for archery and other sports where people don't want their hands to shake. Apparently it's also widely used by violinists and other musicians that need to have complete control of the instrument they're using and it improves that. It's discussed briefly in the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" which I recently linked to as they're showing it free on demand.

O/T: Bigger, Stronger, Faster is free on Tubi right now - AnabolicMinds.com

I'm sure most everyone has seen this, but if you haven't, YOU HAVE GOT TO WATCH IT. It's free for streaming (with ads) on Tubi right now, so anyone in the US can go and watch it. If you're outside of the US, you can use a VPN or PM me. Here's the trailer for it And you can watch it here...

anabolicminds.com

 

[Hyde]

You can call me a keyboard warrior or whatever makes you happy. All I did was present the evidence. You're a person with free will and can make up your mind if you want to risk taking it or not. But to me, it sounds like you're cherry picking what you want to hear.

Let's think about this logically for a second. A multibillion dollar pharmaceutical company, GlaxoSmithKline spends BILLIONS of dollars developing a drug and then drops it during the animal research phase. They didn't even make it to human trials. That, to me, says something. If you're spending that much bank to develop a drug and then completely cancel it, losing out BILLIONS of dollars, then there's probably a good reason. They don't just cancel drug development because it doesn't sound good on paper.

So for me, personally, I wouldn't risk taking it. Like I said, if you know anything about cancer, it takes DECADES to develop, not days, weeks, months or years. But, hey, like @MadStax said, maybe it's a dosage thing. Maybe GlaxoSmithKline just didn't want to take the risk. Who knows. But, the problem is we'll never know definitively because no one is ever going to look into research into this drug again because of the risk factor. So all we're ever going to have is the studies we have right now. I posted those studies. Make up your own mind. I'm not in favor of drug regulation, and I think people should have the choice to take what they please. So, all I'm saying is look at the data and decide for yourself.

As someone who just started GW back up at 10mg this morning (for the first time in about 4 months) I can absolutely appreciate your mentality here. You just don’t need to take anything that is not very well established over decades already to succeed. A lot of us guys on forums over the years, especially when younger, have been willing to lab rat stuff “for the gainz”, but that’s always been an unnecessary risk when tried & true staple AAS have always been out there. No Mr. Olympia was ultimately made off of any one special compound that wasn’t widely used by many other guys. There aren’t any real secrets - nobody has to do Cardarine to get cut.

 

[StarScream66]

As someone who just started GW back up at 10mg this morning (for the first time in about 4 months) I can absolutely appreciate your mentality here. You just don’t need to take anything that is not very well established over decades already to succeed. A lot of us guys on forums over the years, especially when younger, have been willing to lab rat stuff “for the gainz”, but that’s always been an unnecessary risk when tried & true staple AAS have always been out there. No Mr. Olympia was ultimately made off of any one special compound that wasn’t widely used by many other guys. There aren’t any real secrets - nobody has to do Cardarine to get cut.

Oh I completely understand. When I was young I did stupid steroid combos that I should have waited till I was older to run. But when you're young and dumb you make mistakes and want those gains to come now and so you don't do the smartest things.

But, as far as cardinine is concerned, I consider the risk factor of it fairly high. Other people may disagree and most people I've heard who run it have nothing but good things to say about it.

I vape and I enjoy the nootropic benefits of nicotine. However, the long term risk factors of vaping haven't been established, so I'm taking a calculated risk that it isn't problematic in the long term, although it very well may be.

The thing about cancer is that it's such a complicated disease. So many things can trigger it, and 10-20 years from now you might develop some form of cancer and you would have no idea what caused it. Cardinine is one of those things that may be doing that, and we're not going to hear about that until decades from now and this forum and everyone posting here will be long gone (not dead, just on other platforms). So, it's just a calculated risk whether you're willing to take based on all the data available. So, again, people may rave about it now, but down the line is it going to trigger a tumor to start growing? That's up in the air. But, the data, from my point of view, is such that I think it is a potential cancer causing agent and those who want to use it should be aware of that fact.

 

[bigdadybry]

Do you have a link to this article?

Btw, I appreciate the civil discussion. We're simply having a debate here about the safety of this compound and I think both sides have valid arguments.

No worries. I appreciate the civil discussion as well. Different opinions and varying ammo never hurt.

I pdf'd the article in the event I couldn't find it without joining/paying. I am not a NY mag member but found the full article after seeing the truncated article. Don't click on the pop-up at the bottom and you should be able to view it in its entirety. If not, I was able to get to the full article by going to the Nov 2017 issue of the magazine directly. Make sense?
If that fails, let me know, I'll send the pdf. This is an author's take on it, so keep that in mind (inherent biases and drama apply).

A Pill to Make Exercise Obsolete

What if a drug could give you all the benefits of a workout?

www.newyorker.com

 

[StarScream66]

No worries. I appreciate the civil discussion as well. Different opinions and varying ammo never hurt.

I pdf'd the article in the event I couldn't find it without joining/paying. I am not a NY mag member but found the full article after seeing the truncated article. Don't click on the pop-up at the bottom and you should be able to view it in its entirety. If not, I was able to get to the full article by going to the Nov 2017 issue of the magazine directly. Make sense?
If that fails, let me know, I'll send the pdf. This is an author's take on it, so keep that in mind (inherent biases and drama apply).

A Pill to Make Exercise Obsolete

What if a drug could give you all the benefits of a workout?

www.newyorker.com

Thanks for the link. I'll give it a thorough read. Btw, you can use a browser extension to bypass all the waypall'd news sites, I have it detailed in my thread here:

Helpful Guide: How to Download Full Unrestricted Journal Articles for Free - AnabolicMinds.com

In the name of science and free access to scientific articles we need to use, I've got a list of two free tools to help you download the full and free versions of full scientific articles. Method 1: Unpaywall - Unpaywall is a free browser extension that will check to see if it can find a free...

anabolicminds.com

 

[StarScream66]

I was having the same problem still, so I just copied the entire article to pastebin.

A Pill to Make Exercise Obsolete - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com