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Carbs not Required post workout

Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.

by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS



Muscle glycogen is the storage form carbohydrate and the primary fuel of intense exercise. For bodybuilders, glycogen-full muscles mean a greater work capacity, faster recovery and muscle growth. Many bodybuilders restrict their carbohydrate intake in an effort to remain lean, this can create low muscle glycogen levels that limit recovery and the ability to train intensely. This study demonstrated that taking glutamine straight after training stimulates glycogen synthesis in muscles and appears just as effective at restoring glycogen levels as a high-dose of carbohydrates.

The participants in this study completed three glycogen-depleting weight training sessions. After each session they received one of three different drinks (by a systemic rotation), a carbohydrate solution (61-grams), a glutamine solution (8-grams), or a combination of both. The muscle biopsy results revealed that 8 grams of glutamine was as effective as 61-grams of glucose for restoring muscle glycogen levels, while the combination of glucose and glutamine restored whole body glycogen levels more effectively than either supplement taken separately.

These findings are fantastic for competitive bodybuilders, wrestlers, and other athletes that may restrict carbohydrate intake yet require high muscle glycogen levels for optimal performance. These results also have important implications for those that follow a low-carb diet. Taking an 8-gram serving of glutamine after exercise will restore muscle glycogen levels as effectively as a high dose of glucose. This means bodybuilders and other athletes can replenish vital muscle glycogen levels with minimal amounts of carbohydrates! Pre-contest bodybuilders can use glutamine in their carb loading phase to enhance muscle glycogen accumulation.

Bodybuilders and other strength athletes should aim for rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen stores straight after exercise. By adding glutamine to your post-workout meals you will enhance the replenishment of vital muscle glycogen and whole body energy stores.

This research demonstrates more important benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes. Glutamine remains one of the most underrated, research-proven performance enhancing supplements an athlete can use.

J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.


However, if the study in the thread starter's post is correct, this study you show would serve only to increase sales of glutamine, as they didn't compare either groups to a "NO CARB post w/o" group.

Know what i mean? That would mean glutamine has NO effect.
 
It seems to me that the researchers made a hypothesis, and stopped when they got the results they wanted (tailored the study to their hypothesis). Any other researcher would do a study, and if proved correct, examine all factors that could have skewed the results, such as only doing 2 sessions w/ 2 participants. And, as far as the number of sessions/number of participants, more of both would be much better. I think about it this way. If you had 2 participants over 2 sessions, and none showed improvement, I guess you could just stop there, right!?! Any good researcher would then investigate genetic abnormalities/metabolic disorders/body type/caloric expendatures/etc. Now, if you increased it to 20 participants and/or 24 sessions, there would be MUCH LESS room for those types of errors (200/60 would be spectacular, as more of each would allow a dietary macro/physical fitness baseline for the participants to be assessed, so as to be able to accurately monitor their progression. However, if you're only concerned with proving a pre-conceived notion correct, I guess you could go ahead and stop now. I understand that my example is over-simplified by about 20,000,000,000 times, but hopefully I made my point. Just my opinion!
 
I'm not going to tear this apart too much although I disagree with almost all of it. But glycogen is the main substrate used during weight training If your doing any more than say 5 reps. Phospho-creatine can sustain the energy output for a few seconds, but then glycogen becomes the main source. I mean anyone who has tried to workout carb depleted can attest that low glycogen stores equals a sh*t workout.

Either way the argument we have is whether the use of cho immediately following exercise is beneficial, or if protein alone is enough.

I've been searching on and off and cannot find any other studies looking at this issue. The only support I can find for the use of carbs are when they are combined with protein. The other support comes from endurance based trials, which don't compare well to this population. There are studies showing that resistance training improves glucose uptake and tolerance, which may allow for faster glycogen repletion, but if your only lifting a muscle group once per week then it wouldn't matter.

I'm curious if there is a relationship between glycogen content and protein synthesis. Meaning does glycogen synthesis take priority over protein synthesis or visa versa, or is there no relation.

If you do find something, let me know. Even on what support of carbs combined with protein vs protein alone, did you find anything that was resistance trained athetes and not done with fasted morning workouts?
 
i believe carbs+protein are a good post-wo meal, i dont believe some special shake is needed tho, no need for whey+dextrose blah blah blah for weight traning, a good meal of chicken, rice, veggies ect will work just as well. I dont believe ronnie or jay have post-wo shakes lol, not a good example but still, the overall diet is much more important then whatever special drink you have after a workout.
 
i love carbs after circuit training and cardio. stops the shakes. if it was weights i was doing i'd normally just have a protein shake then a meal. CV i'll do carbs. But after both shakes i'll have a balanced meal like an hour later.

Guess everyone is different and different things work for others.
 
Whey and casein are the Best post-workout shake?

Invalid Link Removed

Not going to read through it right now but it might be the same one. I did read that subjects in a study using a blend rather than whey alone were able to eat a meal sooner after the shake. Thought that was interesting. Any idea why? Seems somewhat contradictory to casein being slow although I'm sure there is another machanism involved that doesn't come to mind.
 
i love carbs after circuit training and cardio. stops the shakes. if it was weights i was doing i'd normally just have a protein shake then a meal. CV i'll do carbs. But after both shakes i'll have a balanced meal like an hour later.

Guess everyone is different and different things work for others.

If I don't drink some Body Mortar or Gatorade during circuit training I get shaky as hell.
 
Not going to read through it right now but it might be the same one. I did read that subjects in a study using a blend rather than whey alone were able to eat a meal sooner after the shake. Thought that was interesting. Any idea why? Seems somewhat contradictory to casein being slow although I'm sure there is another machanism involved that doesn't come to mind.

Theres actually a number of studies out there that show the faster ingestion the protein is that although serum levels of aminos go up, and short term nitrogen retention seems to go up that longer term protein oxidation also goes up. While in the reverse the slower digesting proteins tend to lower long term protein oxidation. At this point I won't use BCAAs if I'm not sure i'll have a solid meal with protein within the hour.
 
layne norton suggests 20g carbs with amino acids to maximize the protein synthesis response, not sure if that matters post-wo
 
holy crap!!! Finally someone else that uses glutamine PWO. I have been using 20g glutamine very first thing when i get home. Then 15min later, i drink a shake consisting of 40/20/20 (whey/casein/egg). Been working great for recomp.

I use Glutamine
 
The external validity of this study is this: after an acute bout of leg extensions in untrained subjects, carbohydrates do not enhance protein syntehsis any more than protein alone. Thats it.

You cannot extrapolate the results to anything greater than that without making infferential leaps of faith. Hence, why at the end of any discussion, the researchers will say " we found xxxx, however, more research is needed to see if xxxx will result in xxxxx"

Evidence based approach use patient centered trials and evidence from basic science. You cannot or you will never find a study with subjects that is exactly similar to your subjects pr patients. If we know the trained individuals have less damage than beginners, the biological plausibility to find greater protein breakdown with trained is much less. So i don't see the results changing in trained.


The hypothesis proposed by researchers are very narrow and direct. In the case of the aforementioned study, it was a few biochemical processes that are involved in protein synthesis right after resistance training.

We forget a few things wrt to hypertrophy.
1. Protein synthesis is an ongoing process, not just an hour or two pwo.
2. The synthesis of new myofibrils only makes up a part of hypertrophy, thus,
3. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - the merging of satellite cells and the hormones inolved in signalling this (IGF, MGF, etc.) - must also be taken into account attempting to talk about post workout CHO and hypertophy.

I agree that acute studies do not give the best evidence for application.

Usually these sort of studies from the framework for long term studies. From other studies, they have show how acute protein synthesis levels can predict long term muscle growth.

Acute study is better than no studies which is the case with carbs after protein.

And I am not sure what u mean by sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and satellite cells.

Good posts.
 
Thought it was interesting that some of the same authors posted this study a couple years ago supporting the use of CHO with protein. Not that it means anything because this is an ever changing and adapting field.

Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise in trained young men.Tang JE, Manolakos JJ, Kujbida GW, Lysecki PJ, Moore DR, Phillips SM.Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

Abstract
Whey protein is a supplemental protein source often used by athletes, particularly those aiming to gain muscle mass; however, direct evidence for its efficacy in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is lacking. We aimed to determine the impact of consuming whey protein on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the post-exercise period. Eight healthy resistance-trained young men (age=21+/-1 .0 years; BMI=26.8+/-0.9 kg/m2 (means+/-SE)) participated in a double-blind randomized crossover trial in which they performed a unilateral leg resistance exercise workout (EX: 4 sets of knee extensions and 4 sets of leg press; 8-10 repetitions/set; 80% of maximal), such that one leg was not exercised and acted as a rested (RE) comparator. After exercise, subjects consumed either an isoenergetic whey protein plus carbohydrate beverage (WHEY: 10 g protein and 21 g fructose) or a carbohydrate-only beverage (CHO: 21 g fructose and 10 g maltodextran). Subjects received pulse-tracer injections of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine and L-[15N]phenylalanine to measure MPS. Exercise stimulated a rise in MPS in the WHEY-EX and CHO-EX legs, which were greater than MPS in the WHEY-RE leg and the CHO-RE leg (all p<0.05), respectively. The rate of MPS in the WHEY-EX leg was greater than in the CHO-EX leg (p<0.001). We conclude that a small dose (10 g) of whey protein with carbohydrate (21 g) can stimulate a rise in MPS after resistance exercise in trained young men that would be supportive of a positive net protein balance, which, over time, would lead to hypertrophy.
 
Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
2007 Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale


At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1

There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.

However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.

Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.

There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.

Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4

In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5

Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.

That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.

However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12

It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13

Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15

Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17

Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.

By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.

This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18

As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19

In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins, plus the addition of a few other useful ingredients.


1 Manninen AH. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. Br J Sports Med. 2006;40(11):900-5.
2 Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5 Suppl):S83.
3 Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 1999; 276:E628-634.
4 Miller BF. Human muscle protein synthesis after physical activity and feeding. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2007;35(2):50-5.
5 Garcia-Roves, P.M., D.H. Han, Z. Song, T.E. Jones, K.A. Hucker, and J.O. Holloszy. Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 2003; 285:E729-E736,.
6 Ivy JL Goforth HW Jr Damon BM McCauley TR Parsons EC Price TB (2002) Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate–protein supplement J Appl Physiol 93 1337–1344.
7 Zorzano A, Palacin M, Guma A. Mechanisms regulating GLUT4 glucose transporter expression and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Acta Physiol Scand. 2005;183(1):43-58.
8 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
9 Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002;93(4):1337-44.
10 Carrithers JA, Williamson DL, Gallagher PM, Godard MP, Schulze KE, Trappe SW. Effects of postexercise carbohydrate-protein feedings on muscle glycogen restoration. J Appl Physiol. 2000;88(6):1976-82.
11 CarteeGD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, and Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256: E494–E499.
12 HenriksenEJ. Effects of acute exercise and exercise training on insulin resistance. J Appl Physiol 2002; 93:788–796.
13 Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1998;84(3):890-6.
14 Ivy JL, Holloszy JO. Persistant increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol 1981; 241:C200-C203.
15 Ren JM, Semenkovich CF, Gulve EA, Gao J, Holloszy JO. Exercise induces rapid increases in GLUT4 expression, glucose transport capacity, and insulin-stimulated glycogen storage in muscle. J Biol Chem. 1994 20;269(20):14396-401.
16 Derave W, Lund S, Holman G, Wojtaszewski J, Pedersen O, Richter EA. Contraction-stimulated muscle glucose transport and GLUT-4 surface content are dependent on glycogen content. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 277: E1103–E1110.
17 Kawanaka K, Han D, Nolte LA, Hansen PA, Nakatani A, and Holloszy JO. Decreased insulin-stimulated GLUT-4 translocation in glycogen-supercompensated muscles of exercised rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 276: E907–E912.
18 Cartee GD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256:E494–E499.
19 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
 
As for the present study, validity aside, it is pretty much the only study of it's kind to date. So without future research, it's still up in the air about carbs IMO... but I have to say I am definately more convinced than I was before this thread.

During something like HST training, or high volume upper/lower split training... then I could see the benefit, b/c your going to be training every other day, and need to re-synthesize glycogen as fast as possible.

But I'm all but convinced that for the typical bodybuilder hitting each muscle group once per week, there may be no added benefit for large quantities of CHO post workout.

BUT... that claim still cannot be made without additional research IMO

You still have 50+ studies out there that have used a CHO + Protein mix when finding their results... and this study is the first to make the distinguishment.
 
Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
2007 Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale


At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1

There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.

However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.

Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.

There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.

Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4

In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5

Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.

That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.

However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12

It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13

Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15

Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17

Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.

By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.

This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18

As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19

In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins, plus the addition of a few other useful ingredients.


1 Manninen AH. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. Br J Sports Med. 2006;40(11):900-5.
2 Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5 Suppl):S83.
3 Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 1999; 276:E628-634.
4 Miller BF. Human muscle protein synthesis after physical activity and feeding. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2007;35(2):50-5.
5 Garcia-Roves, P.M., D.H. Han, Z. Song, T.E. Jones, K.A. Hucker, and J.O. Holloszy. Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 2003; 285:E729-E736,.
6 Ivy JL Goforth HW Jr Damon BM McCauley TR Parsons EC Price TB (2002) Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate–protein supplement J Appl Physiol 93 1337–1344.
7 Zorzano A, Palacin M, Guma A. Mechanisms regulating GLUT4 glucose transporter expression and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Acta Physiol Scand. 2005;183(1):43-58.
8 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
9 Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002;93(4):1337-44.
10 Carrithers JA, Williamson DL, Gallagher PM, Godard MP, Schulze KE, Trappe SW. Effects of postexercise carbohydrate-protein feedings on muscle glycogen restoration. J Appl Physiol. 2000;88(6):1976-82.
11 CarteeGD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, and Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256: E494–E499.
12 HenriksenEJ. Effects of acute exercise and exercise training on insulin resistance. J Appl Physiol 2002; 93:788–796.
13 Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1998;84(3):890-6.
14 Ivy JL, Holloszy JO. Persistant increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol 1981; 241:C200-C203.
15 Ren JM, Semenkovich CF, Gulve EA, Gao J, Holloszy JO. Exercise induces rapid increases in GLUT4 expression, glucose transport capacity, and insulin-stimulated glycogen storage in muscle. J Biol Chem. 1994 20;269(20):14396-401.
16 Derave W, Lund S, Holman G, Wojtaszewski J, Pedersen O, Richter EA. Contraction-stimulated muscle glucose transport and GLUT-4 surface content are dependent on glycogen content. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 277: E1103–E1110.
17 Kawanaka K, Han D, Nolte LA, Hansen PA, Nakatani A, and Holloszy JO. Decreased insulin-stimulated GLUT-4 translocation in glycogen-supercompensated muscles of exercised rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 276: E907–E912.
18 Cartee GD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256:E494–E499.
19 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.


Yeah i read this also.... very good write-up, but it is all analytical and oppinion based. But still very interesting perspective.
 
I`m on low carb diet now and the only thing help me a lot on the gym with the weights is ALCAR 6g a day

Yeah I read a study during my search saying that when your on a carb restricted diet, timing your carbs around your workout doesn't improve performance.

I like ALCAR combined with sulbutamine... gives me good focus and drive in the gym
 
damn maxximal...sounds like u are doing a lot of the same stuff i am doing. I have been dosing ALCAR 2-3g three or four times a day. Helps fat metabolism and focus is good.

I`m on low carb diet now and the only thing help me a lot on the gym with the weights is ALCAR 6g a day
 
Here is another one which has looked at whole body protein degradation and synthesis and protein balance and didn't find a difference with carbs :

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Epub 2007 Jul 3.
Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]
Abstract
The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 +/- 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 +/- 2.9 vs. 3.7 +/- 0.5 and 1.5 +/- 0.2 U.6 h(-1) x l(-1), respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose R(a) and R(d) were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 +/- 0.01, 0.10 +/- 0.01, and 0.11 +/- 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


The mechanisms seems to be the increased insulin response with just high enough protein intake is enough insulin to blunt protein breakdown. This study had a mean insulin response of 16u/ml where the recent study had 11u/ml in just the protein group.
 
Yeah I read a study during my search saying that when your on a carb restricted diet, timing your carbs around your workout doesn't improve performance.

I like ALCAR combined with sulbutamine... gives me good focus and drive in the gym

How much of each did you use here? Any stims used with this combo? I have both and usually just use 1.5g ALCAR with my pre-wo
 
Here is another one which has looked at whole body protein degradation and synthesis and protein balance and didn't find a difference with carbs :

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Epub 2007 Jul 3.
Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]
Abstract
The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 +/- 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 +/- 2.9 vs. 3.7 +/- 0.5 and 1.5 +/- 0.2 U.6 h(-1) x l(-1), respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose R(a) and R(d) were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 +/- 0.01, 0.10 +/- 0.01, and 0.11 +/- 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


The mechanisms seems to be the increased insulin response with just high enough protein intake is enough insulin to blunt protein breakdown. This study had a mean insulin response of 16u/ml where the recent study had 11u/ml in just the protein group.

Yeah good find, I read a few others discussing the minimal effects immediate carbs have on nitrogen balance.

Gotta say ive learned alot just from the topics sparked in thread.
 
Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.
 
Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.

That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case.

On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted
 
Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.

That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case.

On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted
 
That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case. That's what the author wrote too.

On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted

That is the difference between acute studies and long term studies. In acute studies, you don't see the difference in calories in 30-60 min period. But in long term studies having a group consume 35gms of carbs plus 6gms of protein another group only consuming 6 gms of AA makes a difference in body composition.

I don't think glucose makes a big difference here. The protein synthesis and breakdown changes are attributed to insulin and amino's.

I don't think we can conclusively say carbs will not do much postworkout unless there is along term study with a good design. But it is leaning more towards no effect. But it is pretty clear all this crapola about waxy maize, dextrose and 50-70gms carbs post workout is just over hyped.

Anyway, good discussion.
 
Hydrosalate protein aside, i believe 20g plus free form aminos were shown to maximize protein synthesis, not sugars or waxy but any carb like say a bag of baked lays works too, so with this in mind a piece of fruit with free form aminos would be a good idea unless someone has a good hydrosalate protein such as peptopro, i used layne nortons research for the carbs suggestion
 
That is the difference between acute studies and long term studies. In acute studies, you don't see the difference in calories in 30-60 min period. But in long term studies having a group consume 35gms of carbs plus 6gms of protein another group only consuming 6 gms of AA makes a difference in body composition.

I don't think glucose makes a big difference here. The protein synthesis and breakdown changes are attributed to insulin and amino's.

I don't think we can conclusively say carbs will not do much postworkout unless there is along term study with a good design. But it is leaning more towards no effect. But it is pretty clear all this crapola about waxy maize, dextrose and 50-70gms carbs post workout is just over hyped.

Anyway, good discussion.

Yeah i definitely agree. At one point during a bulk I was slamming 100g of dextrose w/ protein post workout and ended up a
Bloated mess with a 37 inch waist.

Good stuff though, this thread def gave me a new perspective.
 
by Charles Poliquin
Diet Principles


The best time to load up in carbs is the first 10 minutes following your workout. Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains. Originally based on the research that was available at the time, I typically recommended 2 g/Kg of bodyweight. Over the years, after being exposed to more research and discussing it with my colleagues, I have come to the conclusion that it should be a reflection of the training volume for the training session. The greater the number of reps per training unit, the greater the carbohydrate intake. Of course, one can assume that all reps are equal. A squatting or deadlifting rep is more demanding than a curling or triceps extension rep. By the same token, 3 reps slow tempo squats has different caloric demand than 3 reps in the power clean. As a general rule, I would recommend the following carbohydrate intake based on training volume for a given workout:

12-72 reps per workout : 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
73-200 reps per workout : 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout : 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout : 1.2 g/kg/LBM

Regarding the source of carbohydrates post-workout, I have experimented with various sources, I like using fruit juices with a high glycemic index (i.e. pineapple, grape) to provide 30-40% of the carbs, the rest of the carbs coming from carb powders rangeing from dextrose to various types of malto-dextrin. For variety sake, I will use different types of juice like a berry blend. You can also any type of mushy fruit like bananas or peaches. For seriously underweight athletes, I may use pineapple and/or corn flakes to drive the glycemic index upwards. Instead of using maltodextrin, you can also use dessicated honey.

Use insulin sensitivity supplements with high-carb post workout meals. Nutrients like taurine, arginine, magnesium, R-form alpha lipoic acid etc.. will help dispose of glucose to muscle cells instead of fat cells.

Add protein to your post-workout carb intake. Using 15 g of protein for every 50 lbs of bodyweight, will increase glycogen storage by as much as 40%.
 
I don't buy this study one bit. Sorry. I've read too many studies that say a mixture of protein and carbs is the most ideal post workout meal.
 
I've read them in Men's health magazine and other weight lifting magazines. I'll try to google a bit and see what I can find and post.

those aren't studies they are opinion articles :) Most everything i've seen showing that is based on the fasted morning workout study. So yes, if you workout first thing in the morning before eating then definitely a protein + carb shake after is nice (hydrowhey + perfect carb), but outside of that no legitimate study has shown a significant difference in body comp or nitrogen retention that i've ever found.

its a pity, I used to use it as the excuse to eat organic oreos post workout.
 
those aren't studies they are opinion articles :) Most everything i've seen showing that is based on the fasted morning workout study. So yes, if you workout first thing in the morning before eating then definitely a protein + carb shake after is nice (hydrowhey + perfect carb), but outside of that no legitimate study has shown a significant difference in body comp or nitrogen retention that i've ever found.

its a pity, I used to use it as the excuse to eat organic oreos post workout.

Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.

As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

Now, there's no longitudinal studies that have investigated such...so....

What would be even more interesting, would be if we could set up a study to test this hypothesis....hmmm

Br
 
Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.

As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

Now, there's no longitudinal studies that have investigated such...so....

What would be even more interesting, would be if we could set up a study to test this hypothesis....hmmm

Br

You say carbs used during the workout would be best for body comp, due the above reasons you listed correct? What carbs and overall periworkout nutrition are you refering to?
 
You say carbs used during the workout would be best for body comp, due the above reasons you listed correct? What carbs and overall periworkout nutrition are you refering to?

Here is an application of the theory I previously proposed, based on what I prescribe for my clients and use on my self, assuming the client is training in the afternoon/early evening.

Breakfast - 15% CHO intake

Preworkout - 20% CHO intake
In Workout - 20-40g CHO
Post workout (shake + whole food meal ~1.5 2hr prior)- 40% CHO intake

The remaining 20-25% is split up in two smaller meals, and the final meal of the day is low in starchy CHO.

Br
 
Here is an application of the theory I previously proposed, based on what I prescribe for my clients and use on my self, assuming the client is training in the afternoon/early evening.

Breakfast - 15% CHO intake

Preworkout - 20% CHO intake
In Workout - 20-40g CHO
Post workout (shake + whole food meal ~1.5 2hr prior)- 40% CHO intake

The remaining 20-25% is split up in two smaller meals, and the final meal of the day is low in starchy CHO.

Br


Your not going to utilize that many carbs in such a short time period. You will most likely end up storing a large amount as fat. True the metabolic environment is ideal for nutrient uptake following resistance training, but it's not unlimited.
 
Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

That's a different question. The major reason for all this carb intake after post workout is blunting of protein breakdown.

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.
As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

That depend on the assumption that you are depleting lot of glycogen with weight training which you are not. Or you are on a low carb diet or like an IF diet.
 
This study discusses findings that pre workout carbs/aminos do not effect protein synthesis after the workout. However, this does not examine glycogen or performance... I do feel that intraworkout carbs help during high intensity high volume resistance training... but not for the average joe



J Appl Physiol. 2009 May; 106(5): 1730–1739.
Published online 2008 June 5. doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.90395.2008. PMCID: PMC2681328

Copyright © 2009, American Physiological Society
Regulation of Protein Metabolism in Exercise and Recovery
Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise muscle protein synthesis
Satoshi Fujita,1 Hans C. Dreyer,2,3 Micah J. Drummond,2,3 Erin L. Glynn,3 Elena Volpi,1 and Blake B. Rasmussen2,3

Ingestion of an essential amino acid-carbohydrate (EAA + CHO) solution following resistance exercise enhances muscle protein synthesis during postexercise recovery. It is unclear whether EAA + CHO ingestion before resistance exercise can improve direct measures of postexercise muscle protein synthesis (fractional synthetic rate; FSR). We hypothesized that EAA + CHO ingestion before a bout of resistance exercise would prevent the exercise-induced decrease in muscle FSR and would result in an enhanced rate of muscle FSR during postexercise recovery. [COLOR*********]We studied 22 young healthy subjects before, during, and for 2 h following a bout of high-intensity leg resistance exercise. The fasting control group (n = 11) did not ingest nutrients, and the EAA + CHO group (n = 11) ingested a solution of EAA + CHO 1 h before beginning the exercise bout.[/COLOR] Stable isotopic methods were used in combination with muscle biopsies to determine FSR. Immunoblotting procedures were utilized to assess cell signaling proteins associated with the regulation of FSR. We found that muscle FSR increased in the EAA + CHO group immediately following EAA + CHO ingestion (P < 0.05), returned to basal values during exercise, and remained unchanged at 1 h postexercise. Muscle FSR decreased in the fasting group during exercise and increased at 1 h postexercise (P < 0.05). However, the 2 h postexercise FSR increased by ~50% in both groups with no differences between groups (P > 0.05). Eukaryotic elongation factor 2 phosphorylation was reduced in both groups at 2 h postexercise (EAA + CHO: 39 ± 7%; fasting: 47 ± 9%; P < 0.05). We conclude that EAA + CHO ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise FSR (protein synthesis) compared with exercise without nutrients.


This study discusses the maximum amount of protein used post workout to maximally stimulate protein synthesis... anything over 20g was apparently oxidized (utilized for energy or converted to glucose). The only reason i post this study is to show that smashing large amounts of calories post workout do not have a greater effect on protein synthesis. However, again glycogen synthesis is another story.


Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men 123
Daniel R Moore, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky, and Stuart M Phillips

Abstract
Background: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.

Objectives: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.

Design: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-13C]leucine.

Results: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr389), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser240/244), and the ε-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser539) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.

Conclusions: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.
 
It seems that there is a study to counter another study, i guess the lesson is play with timing and nutrition for yourself to see what works for you, but be consistent and hit your numbers would always be more important
 
If you really want to get a handle on the research on a subject like this, you really need to look up and catalog all the different studies on the subject. I just set up a spreadsheet with really large cells and when reading each study make column for the main information and write notes in the cells. In this case subjects, supplement and training protocol (including timing), performance and biochemical measures, and summary of the results would work well. Then you can see a summary of all the research on just a handful of pages to get an overall picture of the available evidence.
In this case it's next to impossible to get a complete picture of protein vs. carb peri-workout nutrition from just this one study or any one study. This study simply gives you something to think about and future researchers something to dig deeper on. Anyone should be cautious about making sweeping conclusions for everyone based on a study with specific subject characteristics using a fairly narrow training protocol.
 
If you really want to get a handle on the research on a subject like this, you really need to look up and catalog all the different studies on the subject. I just set up a spreadsheet with really large cells and when reading each study make column for the main information and write notes in the cells. In this case subjects, supplement and training protocol (including timing), performance and biochemical measures, and summary of the results would work well. Then you can see a summary of all the research on just a handful of pages to get an overall picture of the available evidence.
In this case it's next to impossible to get a complete picture of protein vs. carb peri-workout nutrition from just this one study or any one study. This study simply gives you something to think about and future researchers something to dig deeper on. Anyone should be cautious about making sweeping conclusions for everyone based on a study with specific subject characteristics using a fairly narrow training protocol.

Lol very true, altho I wouldn't take the time to do that unless I'm writing a review of lit, and getting grad school credit for it.
 
That depend on the assumption that you are depleting lot of glycogen with weight training which you are not. Or you are on a low carb diet or like an IF diet.

Your not going to utilize that many carbs in such a short time period. You will most likely end up storing a large amount as fat. True the metabolic environment is ideal for nutrient uptake following resistance training, but it's not unlimited.

The rate of glycogen degredation is similar at varrying intensities, however, at higher intensity glycogen repleition wil occu at a faster rate in the unfed state following higher intensities since more intermediates are available. Either way, glycogenolysis is occuring (pubmed: 2055849 3758035 )
by approximately 25% following about 6 sets of leg extensions.
According to the NSCA essentials of strength and conditioning, glycogen is depleted between 20-60% following a resstance training session.


Now, this nutrition program I suggested previously is following a full body workout, with approximately 25 working sets, and most lower and upper body movements are super-setted together. It would not apply to a typical muscle and fitness 5 day split.

Therefore, I'll provide some figures to explain how I came to these prescribed percentages.

We'll use a, average man, untrained.

70 kg (154 lbs), with about 42% muscle mass gives ~ 30 kg of skeletal muscle.

At the average of 15g/kg glycogen storage. This is a total of 450g of glycogen.

Lets be on the safe side, and use a lower depletion rate - 30% - means that 135g of glycogen are depleted during the workout. This does not take into account the decrease in liver glycogen nor the blood glucose used.

If said subject is consuming 5g/kg CHO, then a total of 350g of cho are consumed per day.

This means:

20g in workout
40g post workout liquid meal
100g 2 hr prior in whole grains

Which is approximately 160g of CHO following the workout. Enough to replenish liver and muscle glycogen and provide energy for the period of time post-training where metabolism is elevated to return the body to baseline (remove H+ from blood, oxidize lactate, begin rebuilding fuels, etc.).

Br
 
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