capsaicin, gingerols, shogaols, piperine, etc.

[HIT4ME]

Ok, so I like playing with bulk powders and trying to make my own supplements. Most of what I mess around with is geared toward fat loss because I have plenty of it to lose. I've been thinking of buying a bunch of different bulk powders and taking large doses of some of the staples that everyone overlooks.

I have become very interested in capsaicin for fat loss, and this leads to a BUNCH of other chemicals such as ginger, pepper, and raspberry ketones which are similar in structure and effects. In my research, I have begun to better understand how BPS formulated Vanillean - but I'm looking for something with a bit more kick.

I'm thinking something along the lines of 20 mg of capsaicin, 2 grams of raspberry ketones, and 100-200 mg of gingerols/shogaols per day.

The 20 mg of capsaicin is about 6-7 times what is found in Vanillean, but I've based this on the fact that some cultures have an average intake of up to 50 mg of capsaicin/day through food intake. So I feel 20 mg should be safe, although it may not be tolerable.

I'm almost positive that doses this high will be hard to come by in an off-the shelf supplement, probably because of discomfort issues for one. I expect this will heat things up quite a bit, may have the potential for stomach and intestinal upset. But I'm willing to experiment.

I'm interested in the fact that these items should definitely heat you up, which in theory should increase metabolism to some degree, but also in the fact that a lot of the recent studies on these chemicals have been centered around appetite suppression, and reduction of inflammation.

Does anyone else have any experience with these ingredients, or interesting information to throw out there?

I'm thinking of some bulk green tea, l-carnitine and berberine to go along with it.

 

[JudoJosh]

EBF Inc has played around with bulk capsaicin some I think.

 

[HIT4ME]

I would suspect so - their AAV2 and the original formula use Capsaicin and I should have mentioned them too. AAV2 seems to be along the lines of what I'm looking at doing, but maybe playing with higher doses....

 

[RecompMan]

I would suspect so - their AAV2 and the original formula use Capsaicin and I should have mentioned them too. AAV2 seems to be along the lines of what I'm looking at doing, but maybe playing with higher doses....

We use capsaicinoids. Which is 3 different forms of capsaicin which 33% of which is capsaicin
The og formula had 10mg of capsaicinoids and that bitch was potent hence reformation

People still can't handle it

 

[HIT4ME]

Hey man, thanks for the info. I suspected that much. I was thinking 3 mg 3-4 times per day to start, and to assess tolerance.

Actually, I will be honest - I've always looked at your products and thought they were decent looking but not something I was going to try (I wasn't super impressed). Now that I'm researching a little more, I think I'm understanding it better and your AAV2 looks like a great formulation. Knowing that you had to drop back from 10 mg. makes me think even more of it. Vanillean only has 1 mg/serving.

I'm also interested in the fucoxanthin - so your formula seems to be right along the lines of what I thought I would have to build myself.

I may just get AAV2 and then add in some ginger - but I read somewhere in passing that Ginkgo has gingerols? If so, I wouldn't even need to add that.....

The only thing in your formula I don't like, which is a constant debate, is the Yohimbine analogue.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I have used everything you listed. RKs at the right dose give reflux, capsaicin gives full on GI upset from entry to exit. Not worth it IMO

 

[HIT4ME]

Thank you Coop! I had this in the back of my mind. I've used RK at 1-1.5 grams before and had almost no issue. I was using NP's RK 500 tabs. I was going to bump that to 1.5g. The capsaicin has me worried a little....but I'm wondering if you can build up a tolerance.

I'm sure this stuff can heat you up pretty good, but I'm not 100% sold that this will create an increased metabolism to any real degree. I know that heat has to come from somewhere, which means energy is being burned, but I also know that these compounds can give the illusion of heat without much a real increase....

I've taken products with Cayenne and straight capsaicin in them before, but never really paid any attention. I think it was in there, but dosed low.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Thank you Coop! I had this in the back of my mind. I've used RK at 1-1.5 grams before and had almost no issue. I was using NP's RK 500 tabs. I was going to bump that to 1.5g. The capsaicin has me worried a little....but I'm wondering if you can build up a tolerance.

I'm sure this stuff can heat you up pretty good, but I'm not 100% sold that this will create an increased metabolism to any real degree. I know that heat has to come from somewhere, which means energy is being burned, but I also know that these compounds can give the illusion of heat without much a real increase....

I've taken products with Cayenne and straight capsaicin in them before, but never really paid any attention. I think it was in there, but dosed low.

No, capsaicin has very, very good human data. Some of the best for any product. You just need a nice high dose.

It's similar to bicarb in that the data is there, but the dose isn't feasible

 

[HIT4ME]

Great Coop! I am glad to hear that. That was my initial theory - that it looks good, but is probably intolerable and thus not a product that can be put out to the public by any reputable company. I figure if it isn't too bad, I may be able to build-up to it. I have a high tolerance for some things, low tolerance for others, which I guess is true of a lot of people. I may be in for a shock though. We will see what I can work out on this, haha.

I wonder what everyone's thoughts are on Ginger - shogaols and gingerols? It looks to have similar data, and maybe I shouldn't add it all in at once....but the up side of all these products is that they actually appear to have health benefits beyond fat loss in higher doses too...

 

[CNPComicNerd]

You said there were societies that get up to 50mg of capsaicin a day so have you found out how they deal with it? Obviously you said you didn't want to get up to those numbers but I feel if they're ingesting up to 50mg a day then they have some tricks to make it more handleable. Or you might have already looked that up and found out its a tolerance thing they've had for generations.

 

[HIT4ME]

CNPCN- Good question. I saw that info on :

http://www.drugs.com/npp/capsicum-peppers.html

If you look under the history section, you will see that some Asian cultures have an average daily intake of 5 g/day of chili peppers which equates to about 50 mg/day of capsaicin.

I don't know which cultures these are, or anything about it, I just took it at face value and assume that it is a built-up tolerance.

I have found some mention of studies that show capsaicin initially causes a sensitization of the GI tract, but this eventually turns into a desensitization effect, and the capsaicin starts to work as an analgesic.

 

[liftandletdie]

I've used ginger here and there for several years. I used 500mg of an extract standardized for 5% gingerols. I never used it specifically for fat loss, but have noticed a thermo effect. Being a COX 1,2 inhibitor I've used it more for pain/ inflammation dosed away from the workout. Ginger does a lot of interesting things, boosting glutathione...possibly increasing test slightly, anti tumor/cancer.

 

[HIT4ME]

I've used ginger here and there for several years. I used 500mg of an extract standardized for 5% gingerols. I never used it specifically for fat loss, but have noticed a thermo effect. Being a COX 1,2 inhibitor I've used it more for pain/ inflammation dosed away from the workout. Ginger does a lot of interesting things, boosting glutathione...possibly increasing test slightly, anti tumor/cancer.

Yes, the health benefits of Ginger are definitely very interesting. I've seen references to improved cholesterol, improved blood pressure, pain reduction, inflammation reduction, testosterone increases, fat loss. Some of these effects are shared with capsaicin - so this is kind of what I find interesting. If I could build up a tolerance, this may be kind of like a healthy but extremely weak DNP.

 

[RecompMan]

You said there were societies that get up to 50mg of capsaicin a day so have you found out how they deal with it? Obviously you said you didn't want to get up to those numbers but I feel if they're ingesting up to 50mg a day then they have some tricks to make it more handleable. Or you might have already looked that up and found out its a tolerance thing they've had for generations.

They use Capsiate. Non pungent. And studies were 10mg +

 

[RecompMan]

Hey man, thanks for the info. I suspected that much. I was thinking 3 mg 3-4 times per day to start, and to assess tolerance. Actually, I will be honest - I've always looked at your products and thought they were decent looking but not something I was going to try (I wasn't super impressed). Now that I'm researching a little more, I think I'm understanding it better and your AAV2 looks like a great formulation. Knowing that you had to drop back from 10 mg. makes me think even more of it. Vanillean only has 1 mg/serving. I'm also interested in the fucoxanthin - so your formula seems to be right along the lines of what I thought I would have to build myself. I may just get AAV2 and then add in some ginger - but I read somewhere in passing that Ginkgo has gingerols? If so, I wouldn't even need to add that..... The only thing in your formula I don't like, which is a constant debate, is the Yohimbine analogue.

Glad you're researching for yourself man and seeing why I put things together the way I did

Look at all MOAs is all I have to say

 

[Driven2lift]

Glad you're researching for yourself man and seeing why I put things together the way I did Look at all MOAs is all I have to say

Zach its been a while,
Are things still in the works with new products?

 

[henryv]

I have become very interested in capsaicin for fat loss

The 20 mg of capsaicin is about 6-7 times what is found in Vanillean, but I've based this on the fact that some cultures have an average intake of up to 50 mg of capsaicin/day through food intake. So I feel 20 mg should be safe, although it may not be tolerable.

I'm almost positive that doses this high will be hard to come by in an off-the shelf supplement, probably because of discomfort issues for one. I expect this will heat things up quite a bit, may have the potential for stomach and intestinal upset. But I'm willing to experiment.

I'm interested in the fact that these items should definitely heat you up, which in theory should increase metabolism to some degree, but also in the fact that a lot of the recent studies on these chemicals have been centered around appetite suppression, and reduction of inflammation.

Does anyone else have any experience with these ingredients, or interesting information to throw out there?

Capsaicin and related analogues are very interesting. They activate the transient receptor potential cation channel V1 (TRPV1). TRPV1 activation in turn stimulates the release of catecholamines such as adrenaline and noradrenaline from the adrenal medulla. Noradrenaline is a major regulator of brown fat activation, through β3 adrenoreceptor activation.

Have a look at Antaeus Labs LipoMorph. It uses a nonpungent capsaicin analogue, stearoyl vanillylamide, to avoid the GI discomfort associated with capsaicin. Stearoyl vanillylamide increased lipolysis and oxidation of free fatty acids in rats, resulting in increased capacity for exercise.

I'm also interested in fucoxanthin

Fucoxanthin is a naturally-occurring xanthophyll found in brown algae and edible seaweed. It increases the metabolic rate, induces the browning of white fat, and upregulates UCP1 (thermogenin) expression in mice, as well as increasing expression of β3-adrenergic receptor mRNA in white fat tissue. In vitro testing suggests that fucoxanthin and its metabolites suppress adipogenesis via downregulation of PPAR-γ. Antaeus Labs LipoMorph also contains fucoxanthin - at a high dose (166mg/day - 2 caps).

 

[RecompMan]

Zach its been a while, Are things still in the works with new products?

Lots going on here. I'll be able to disclose hopefully soon

We shall see man

Lots to do, formulas all done for things. It's a matter of priority and capital

 

[RecompMan]

Capsaicin and related analogues are very interesting. They activate the transient receptor potential cation channel V1 (TRPV1). TRPV1 activation in turn stimulates the release of catecholamines such as adrenaline and noradrenaline from the adrenal medulla. Noradrenaline is a major regulator of brown fat activation, through ?3 adrenoreceptor activation. Have a look at Antaeus Labs LipoMorph. It uses a nonpungent capsaicin analogue, stearoyl vanillylamide, to avoid the GI discomfort associated with capsaicin. Stearoyl vanillylamide increased lipolysis and oxidation of free fatty acids in rats, resulting in increased capacity for exercise. Fucoxanthin is a naturally-occurring xanthophyll found in brown algae and edible seaweed. It increases the metabolic rate, induces the browning of white fat, and upregulates UCP1 (thermogenin) expression in mice, as well as increasing expression of ?3-adrenergic receptor mRNA in white fat tissue. In vitro testing suggests that fucoxanthin and its metabolites suppress adipogenesis via downregulation of PPAR-?. Antaeus Labs LipoMorph also contains fucoxanthin - at a high dose (166mg/day - 2 caps).

Excellent looking product

Octopamine is a great product at 300mg+ per day.

Fuco as well.

Good stuff you have there!!!

 

[HIT4ME]

Yes, Lipomorph has been on my radar. Seems a little expensive, but it has some very unique and exciting ingredients. The llex Kudungcha and BAIBA alone are worth looking into...

Thanks for all the responses and help guys!

 

[Grayson]

Excellent looking product

Octopamine is a great product at 300mg+ per day.

Fuco as well.

Good stuff you have there!!!

I thought oral bioavailabiliy wasn't good enough to consider supplementation?

 

[henryv]

I thought oral bioavailabiliy wasn't good enough to consider supplementation?

Bioavailability of octopamine or fucoxanthin? Octopamine is orally bioavailable; it was briefly used clinically in Germany in the late 60s/early 70s at similar doses to those in LipoMorph.

Aside: a recent (2014) review article in the journal of Drug and Chemical Toxicology recommended that since octopamine "exerts little or no cardiovascular effects when administered orally" and "no adverse effects have ever been reported in humans or animals following oral administration", that perhaps it should be "removed altogether from [WADA's] list of prohibited substances".

 

[Grayson]

Bioavailability of octopamine or fucoxanthin? Octopamine is orally bioavailable; it was briefly used clinically in Germany in the late 60s/early 70s at similar doses to those in LipoMorph.

Aside: a recent (2014) review article in the journal of Drug and Chemical Toxicology recommended that since octopamine "exerts little or no cardiovascular effects when administered orally" and "no adverse effects have ever been reported in humans or animals following oral administration", that perhaps it should be "removed altogether from [WADA's] list of prohibited substances".

Yes, octopamine.

I was thinking of experimenting with it in bulk powder, but couldn't find any pharmocodynamics on the the b3 receptor.

 

[RecompMan]

I thought oral bioavailabiliy wasn't good enough to consider supplementation?

It's not great

Hence higher dosing

 

[RecompMan]

Yes, octopamine. I was thinking of experimenting with it in bulk powder, but couldn't find any pharmocodynamics on the the b3 receptor.

I found a mix of octopamine with evodiamine with a few other ingredients to be quite effective for hunger and fat loss

 

[Jag]

I've been using Capsaicin for a while now. The NOW Foods one i'm using is 40,000 heat units which i'm getting used to gradually but i really want to try some 90,000 heat units which i've only seen in powder, not caps, so i'll have to cap them for sure.

When i take 1-3 caps with a carb meal it seems to turn it into energy where as normally a heavy carb meal will make me drowsy and lethargic.

1-2 caps with a cup of Green Tea is nice for a subtle energy boost. I sometimes add 100mg - 200mg of Caffeine to that.

I love it.