Bulk Powder Availability....

HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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So, I've been kicking around the idea of playing with some higher doses of certain ingredients. Most of the products on the market seem to be slightly under-dosed at best, and simply taking twice as many pills isn't an option, since that would increase the doses of other ingredients which may not be so under dosed, and it would also be quite expensive.

I'm perpetually cutting, since I have a lot of weigh to lose and I'm doing so slowly. Not looking for any dramatic results, but I like to play with different fat burning compounds.

An example of what I'm looking to do is Green Tea Extract (50% EGCG) at 3 grams/day. Nothing exciting, but most products have 1.5 grams/day at best and they are usually coupled with stimulants...I'm looking for non-stimulant compounds.

Another compound that I find to be very interesting is Fucoxanthin. But I can only find ONE place that sells brown seaweed extract in powder form - Bad Monkey Botanicals. The only product that seems to have a good dose of Fuco is Lipomorph, but I want to play around with this some more.

I am also looking for bulk berberine. Nutraplanet has some, but it is always out of stock. There is some on Ebay, but who trusts that?

Does anyone have any sources for stuff like this other than Alibaba? Has anyone ever bought any bulk products off Alibaba? Obviously Alibaba is very sketchy and I am hesitant, even with gold suppliers. Testing any of this stuff will cost $1,000/compound or more I'm sure....which isn't feasible at the quantities I am buying.

Thanks in advance for the help guys.
 
NurseGray

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You have your work cut out for you. I commend you sir. Good luck
 

kdubson14

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Are you worried about liver issues at all with a high dose of EGCG?
 
HIT4ME

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Are you worried about liver issues at all with a high dose of EGCG?
Not really....there have been 9 cases and I am not sold on green tea being the cause...although I may be naïve. I should do more research on it....
 
Grayson

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I remember reading that high doses of egcg stimulate brown fat (i.e. beta3 receptors). I'll have to dig it up.
 
HIT4ME

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Hey guys, thanks. TheEngineer- any idea what "large" doses were necessary to stimulate brown fat? I will do some digging.

MW1 and AFi140 - Yeah, the idea of the bulk powders, for me, is to have some control over dosing and also to reduce cost....but some of your capped products that are individual ingredients may be more time/cost effective in the end....
 
Afi140

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Hey guys, thanks. TheEngineer- any idea what "large" doses were necessary to stimulate brown fat? I will do some digging. MW1 and AFi140 - Yeah, the idea of the bulk powders, for me, is to have some control over dosing and also to reduce cost....but some of your capped products that are individual ingredients may be more time/cost effective in the end....
yeah I don't have time to be capping stuff lol. You also know you're getting quality with sns. I also enjoyed lipomorph like you said.
 
Grayson

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Hey guys, thanks. TheEngineer- any idea what "large" doses were necessary to stimulate brown fat? I will do some digging.

MW1 and AFi140 - Yeah, the idea of the bulk powders, for me, is to have some control over dosing and also to reduce cost....but some of your capped products that are individual ingredients may be more time/cost effective in the end....
I'm on mobile now, but I remember reading a minimum of 3g of egcg. It's a lot and I think it negatively impacts test.

I got some homework to do on this.
 
HIT4ME

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Well, my plan is something along these lines:

4 grams green tea (50% EGCG)
1.5 grams Curcumin 95%
1 Gram Brown Seawead (35% fucoxanthin)
2 Grams Raspberry Ketones
2 grams L-Carnitine L-Tartrate
20 mg capsaicin

All divided into 2-3 doses throughout the day. I could bump the green tea to 6 grams...but man, that IS a lot.

I don't expect this will be anything revolutionary, but I have used everything except the fucoxanthin and the curcumin in smaller doses....and Fucoxanthin and Curcumin got my attention for potential fat loss along with health benefits...
 
HIT4ME

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I've done some very preliminary research on the EGCG/Brown Fat idea that The Engineer mentioned - it seems that EGCG activates brown fat and this appears to be one of the major mechanisms for its increasing caloric expenditure....my research so far does not indicate large doses are necessary for brown fat metabolism to increase. It is seen at 500-600 mg. per day. Still, trying to see if there is any research at 2g+ per day.
 
nattydisaster

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Part of the reason some ingredients are not available in bulk is because no one would every buy them twice as a bulk. Like berberine powder...it is highligher yellow and stains everything...even your hands. Nasty stuff...and it tastes 10x worse than you imagine it tastes like
 
Jackedjack

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Is custom capsule good? I have been looking at them but have not heard much on them.
 
Grayson

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I've done some very preliminary research on the EGCG/Brown Fat idea that The Engineer mentioned - it seems that EGCG activates brown fat and this appears to be one of the major mechanisms for its increasing caloric expenditure....my research so far does not indicate large doses are necessary for brown fat metabolism to increase. It is seen at 500-600 mg. per day. Still, trying to see if there is any research at 2g+ per day.
If stimulation of b3 is your goal, you can run an experiment with the following bulk items:
Octopamine
Fucoxanthin
EGCG
Forskolin (watch out because this increases cortisol)

If using forskolin, also had in something to combat that rise in cortisol with either PS or something like reduce xt. If going bulk powder, I'd do PS.

Then if you want to attack fat loss from the other end:
Capsaicin
Bioperin
Garlic

I believe the second stack would need to be dosed high.

Throw in some Amentoflavone, and maybe some yohimbine and I think you'll be pretty good.
Yohimbine would need to be dosed daily. And you wouldn't technically need the 0.2mg/kg of weight.
I'd do like 7.5-10mg a day every day so that it builds up.

Maybe Alpha-GPC as well for the GH boost, but again I'd have to look to see how statistically relevant such a boost would be and if it would make a difference in fat loss.

Also, from personal experience, reading anecdotal feedback and looking at the research, RK just isn't there. But to each their own.

There's also a fasted protocol that I'm looking into that includes l-alanine, l-glycine, and l-leucine at different dosages. This mix would have to be drunk between pre and intra (lasting throughout the workout).
 
HIT4ME

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Octopamine is a mild stimulant though, correct? I'm not adverse to it, but right now I'm trying to experiment with non-stimulant stuff. Not so much to avoid stimulants, but also to avoid attributing the positive effects of a stimulant to something else. I like octopamine though...I may have to add that in at some point.

Forskolin is always a go-to, but I know that works also so I am leaving that out this go-around.

Everything I listed I've used, with the exception of the fuco and the curcumin - but I've never taken large doses. The more I'm reading on EGCG and Capsaicin, the more I like what I see....I've seen claims that large doses of capsaicin can have pretty dramatic effects on metabolism and fat oxidation....but these seem overblown.

I'm also interested in some of the effects I've seen as far as leptin and insulin resistance with some of these compounds, anti-inflammatory properties, appetite suppression, gut health, etc. I have been extremely obese for over 12 years, and everyone in my family has been this way for quite a while. I am sure it is a pattern of habits that got me this way, and I've lost about 50 pounds while putting on 20-25 pounds of muscle by lifting weights and cleaning up my diet...but I have another 50-60 pounds to go and everything has stopped the last 4-6 months. I am wondering if some of the damage that has been done over time can be corrected through pathways that are not directly associated with fat loss necessarily....but this is just wild speculation.
 
HIT4ME

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Also, I forgot to mention - I'm not sold on the RK. I have seen some people running it over 2 grams that say it has some effect....and it's cheap enough that I can do that for a month and see what I think. I maybe would have been better off including ginger...I may also increase the dose of capsaicin over time...I am going to try 5 mg doses to start, and if I can handle that 4 times per day, I may up it to 7 mg 4X per day...and eventually maybe go to 40 mg 4X per day....EBF told me in another thread that AAV2 has 10 mg and people can't handle it....So I'm going to take that ingredient slowly.

I was going to cap this stuff...but I'm just going to mix a small amount and then parachute it for the first few weeks at least....so I can play with the doses of each ingredient...
 
Synapsin

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Part of the reason some ingredients are not available in bulk is because no one would every buy them twice as a bulk. Like berberine powder...it is highligher yellow and stains everything...even your hands. Nasty stuff...and it tastes 10x worse than you imagine it tastes like
I thought about purchasing that because I find it's a hard item to find in bulk until I found out about the staining
 
HIT4ME

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Part of the reason some ingredients are not available in bulk is because no one would every buy them twice as a bulk. Like berberine powder...it is highligher yellow and stains everything...even your hands. Nasty stuff...and it tastes 10x worse than you imagine it tastes like
I thought about purchasing that because I find it's a hard item to find in bulk until I found out about the staining
Yeah, I may be better off getting the Berberine pre capped. But I'm pretty stupid at times....
 
HIT4ME

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Ok, so I ordered a bunch of stuff from some of the sites, and I got some of the ingredients in today. The green tea was pretty cheap and made sense to buy 500 grams of, so I have a ton of that. I decided to drop 2 grams of tea, which should be 1g of EGCG about an hour ago. I just mixed it in water, and it was extremely bitter, but tolerable ...I washed it down with more water after I drank the concoction.

I'm not sure if this is in my head, but I feel somewhat "stimulated". I feel calm and my heart rate isn't up, but I feel focused, energized, and just a little bit strange. It isn't too bad and I suspect this will subside pretty quickly, but the focus and energy is nice. It could be that the stuff I got has higher caffeine than I expected...but it should have been about 8 mg caffeine/serving...and I took 4 servings....
 
Grayson

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Ok, so I ordered a bunch of stuff from some of the sites, and I got some of the ingredients in today. The green tea was pretty cheap and made sense to buy 500 grams of, so I have a ton of that. I decided to drop 2 grams of tea, which should be 1g of EGCG about an hour ago. I just mixed it in water, and it was extremely bitter, but tolerable ...I washed it down with more water after I drank the concoction.

I'm not sure if this is in my head, but I feel somewhat "stimulated". I feel calm and my heart rate isn't up, but I feel focused, energized, and just a little bit strange. It isn't too bad and I suspect this will subside pretty quickly, but the focus and energy is nice. It could be that the stuff I got has higher caffeine than I expected...but it should have been about 8 mg caffeine/serving...and I took 4 servings....
From this it sounds like you're not very stim resistant. How do you feel on 200mg caffeine?
 
HIT4ME

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I don't see myself as stim resistant or stim tolerant. I've dropped 600 mg of caffeine in one dose before workouts before and it feels good.

I DON'T take stimulants on a regular basis. I drink 1-2 large cups of coffee in the morning at times ....beyond that my normal intake of stimulants is very limited. I think I can build up a tolerance to stimulants pretty quickly, but yohimbine is the one thing that really messes with me.

I've used DMAA, Ephedrine, etc. w/ no real side effects before...
 
Grayson

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I don't see myself as stim resistant or stim tolerant. I've dropped 600 mg of caffeine in one dose before workouts before and it feels good.

I DON'T take stimulants on a regular basis. I drink 1-2 large cups of coffee in the morning at times ....beyond that my normal intake of stimulants is very limited. I think I can build up a tolerance to stimulants pretty quickly, but yohimbine is the one thing that really messes with me.

I've used DMAA, Ephedrine, etc. w/ no real side effects before...
Interesting.

I've had your reaction to green tea a while back when I was playing around with bulk powders.

I did 1 gram of 99% green tea extract (this was hard rhino) and 500mg of 99% l-dopa and was super stimulated. Worse than 500mg of caffeine. And I felt dizzy and sick.
 
Grayson

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Btw, you can also mega dose biotin during with this fat loss stack.

To put it simply, it lowers blood sugar and increases insulin sensitivity. 5-10mg pre workout/cardio and you're set.

Also add in another 5-10mg spaced throughout the day.
 
HIT4ME

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Yeah, it is already starting to wear off....so about an hour after I took it, it hit and lasted for about an hour it seems...it is still there, but very mild.

I read that EGCG has some bioavailability issues - and some suggestion that most of the really promising studies used injection, not oral administration. It seems there are some bioavailability issues. However, I read that taking large doses can lead to increased plasma concentrations and they threw out >60% as the increase...but I'm not sure I understand 60% of increase from what....

I am thinking that the large dose may overwhelm the liver's ability to eliminate the catechins....meaning much more passes into the blood stream. But this is just theory and I know relatively little about this stuff....
 
Grayson

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Yeah, it is already starting to wear off....so about an hour after I took it, it hit and lasted for about an hour it seems...it is still there, but very mild.

I read that EGCG has some bioavailability issues - and some suggestion that most of the really promising studies used injection, not oral administration. It seems there are some bioavailability issues. However, I read that taking large doses can lead to increased plasma concentrations and they threw out >60% as the increase...but I'm not sure I understand 60% of increase from what....

I am thinking that the large dose may overwhelm the liver's ability to eliminate the catechins....meaning much more passes into the blood stream. But this is just theory and I know relatively little about this stuff....
Yup, there was a thread in relation to epicatechin, but tea flavanoids and egcg need fats or carbs. Protein degrades it.

So you can shoot it with MCT oil or some oats. Whatever floats your boat.

Also, yes. High doses are required for clinical efficacy.
 
HIT4ME

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Cool....I plan on using MCT and/or coconut oils as I start putting everything together....the curcumin also has bioavailability issues....I was thinking one shot when I wake up in the morning (fasted) and some oil, and then another in the afternoon with more oil....away from any meals....
 
Grayson

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Cool....I plan on using MCT and/or coconut oils as I start putting everything together....the curcumin also has bioavailability issues....I was thinking one shot when I wake up in the morning (fasted) and some oil, and then another in the afternoon with more oil....away from any meals....
Dioniii would run me over (old poster on the forum), but curcumin is really only beneficial for joints and DOMS and you'd have to go Meriva brand (kind of like how one should go Sabinsa for forskolin)

http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/31

You won't see specific fat loss from it, even if ergo-log says that it acts like clen.
 
HIT4ME

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Yeah - I kind of have that feeling on the curcumin. My thought was the inflammation issues....and I was losing weight, then stopped...and I wonder if better health in general, may help get the fat loss started....if that makes any sense.

But yeah, the clen thing caught my attention :)
 
Grayson

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Curcumin won't.

The other ingredients will get you going.

Usually when I've halted in my goals, I take a break then restart. Whether it be fast loss or muscle gain, the body works in spurts. You cannot constantly be gaining or losing. And if you do, the gods are on your side.

Look into PSMF, toggling programs, Carbless PWO, also Lyle Mcdonals' Rapid Fat Loss and UD2. These are all great approaches/programs.

I'm currently experimenting with CPWO and it's pretty ridic. It's in the link I PMed you.
 
HIT4ME

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Great thanks!
 
HIT4ME

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Just another update, the rest of my ingredients should have been here today, since both shipments were shipped 2-day priority mail on Monday, and it looks like they ACTUALLY shipped on Wednesday (they just created labels on Monday) - but USPS did not deliver. Eh well. I took 2 grams of green tea powder twice today, with about 10g of MCT oil each time. It's been a while since I used the MCT oil, so my stomach was definitely upset about 1-2 hours after ingestion....but not too bad. I think I have more energy with the green tea, more focus, but I think this could be placebo. I also got REALLY hungry about 2 hours after each dose....painfully hungry.
 
HIT4ME

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Not that I really think many people are following this - but I started mixing in Raspberry Ketones and L-Carnitine L-Tartrate today.

I took 2 doses, each dose contained 2 grams of Green Tea (50% EGCG), 1 gram of Rapberry Ketones, and 1 gram of LCLT.

I parachuted the first dose this morning and wasn't home all day so I just took the second dose about 20 minutes ago at 7:45. The first dose made me feel pretty nauseas this morning. I am not one to throw up, but for a while I was worried about losing all my supplements. It hit about 1 hour after ingesting the mix, and lasted for maybe an hour after that. I think I'm still adjusting to the green tea, but I think the 1 gram of RK straight up probably is what upset my stomach.

Tonight, I was weighing out the powders, and thought to myself - raspberry green tea - iced....why not? And then I smelled the LCLT and thought - that's why not...it smells BAD. So I tasted a couple grams of the LCLT anyway and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. So, I poured the mix into some water, 2 packs of splenda, mixed it up and downed it. It could have been worse, but it was far from good. The green tea is just too bitter. At least it was drinkable...I'm sure I won't be able to do that once I get my capsaicin in!

As far as noticing anything...I'm pretty energetic. I worked on a car for over 7 hours today and I'm tired, but I have some other things to do and I'm not going to avoid doing them. I think the green tea increases my hunger at these doses quite a bit, and the RK may actually reduce that just a little, but the mix is far from appetite suppressing.

I'm not usually one that feels REALLY hungry. I can normally go all day without eating if need be and then I just pig out all at once. The last 2 days I've been REALLY hungry though. I had a turkey sandwich for lunch before I went to work on the car and then 10 minutes later I went and had a piece of chicken and my girlfriend couldn't believe I was still hungry..haha. It probably won't help the weight loss goals that I'm so hungry, but I'm hoping it is a sign that my metabolism is picking up and not just coincidence or placebo....

I'm disappointed that my fucoxanthin and capsaicin aren't in yet - those were the two ingredients I was most excited about. Maybe on Monday they will be here...
 
Grayson

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Carnitine takes a while to build up intramuscularly and thus to exert any lipolytic benefits. Thus it should be taken with carbs or in the presence of insulin (i.e. 5+ grams leucine).

Keep going, though. And make sure to take bodily measurements before this experiment goes into full swing.
 
HIT4ME

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lol, my measurements are...."FAT". haha.

When I started 2 days ago I got on the scale and had actually gained some weight over the past couple of weeks - I was at 245.5. As of tonight, in similar clothes, I was down to 244.5. I think 0.5 pounds of that may just be that I wasn't wearing the exact same thing...but I was close. Plus, both of those were night measurements with clothes on, I usually weigh myself in the morning without clothes...just for consistency. I will start doing that tomorrow.

It's funny that when you start trying to lose weight and people say, don't try to lose more than 2 pounds per week you think "What!? That's it? I want to lose faster than that!" and then after a while of it, you kind of start thinking...."Man, if I could just lose 2 pounds every week!"

I also just took my temperature. I was at 97.9. I'm normally as low as 96.8 degrees to 97.3 degrees...so that's pretty warm for me....We will see if that continues.
 
Grayson

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To lose weight, you can do a PSMF (protein sparing modified fast)
 
HIT4ME

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To lose weight, you can do a PSMF (protein sparing modified fast)
I know, I know. I have to read through and research a bunch of stuff you've sent to me. I've been helping a buddy out with a car all day today, and I've had a crazy week with work...and I've got a full day tomorrow. I am actually interested in that approach...I just read one site that said you can lose around 30 pounds in a month on that type of diet...geez. 800 calories a day or less, I'd better have an appetite suppressant.

I've had a similar idea cross through my mind before....eat protein shakes only for a limited time, with vitamins/minerals, etc. I just never thought anything like that could be healthy....I will read up when I have some time.

Abe Lincoln - If I am going to suffer, then I am going to SUFFER! That's just how I am!
 
Grayson

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Eh, shakes spike insulin. You want insulin "quiet."
You can do casein, though...
Do a PSMF with protein per your LBM (whatever that may be)
Supplement with biotin throughout the day. 5-10mg.
Do LISS with yohimbine when you can. 0.2mg/kg bw. Dose it 20 min preworkout then don't eat for at least an hour or 2 after your cardio session.
 
Abe Lincoln

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I just don't understand why to go to such extremes unless obese or prepping for contest. Unless you are and I missed that hm
 
HIT4ME

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I just don't understand why to go to such extremes unless obese or prepping for contest. Unless you are and I missed that hm
You are correct to some extent. I have been working out for almost 2 years, but haven't focused solely on weight loss - I have lost about 45 pounds overall while gaining about 20 pounds of muscle. I know recomp is slow, and I'm not 100% committed to doing everything right, and my diet is definitely the missing piece of the puzzle. I think I probably have about 60 pounds more to go before I am even remotely near where I should be. So yes, I am obese.

I've had some side conversations with The Engineer and he's been extremely helpful. Honestly, the PSMF setup kind of suits my mentality. I like to go ALL OUT for shorter periods of time....I like the challenge....I am not stupid though and I have A LOT more research to do on this before I will try it. The Engineer has given me plenty to look at, but time is limited right now and I haven't had that chance yet.

Also going on a fast 2 weeks before Thanksgiving may not be good planning.....
 
Grayson

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You are correct to some extent. I have been working out for almost 2 years, but haven't focused solely on weight loss - I have lost about 45 pounds overall while gaining about 20 pounds of muscle. I know recomp is slow, and I'm not 100% committed to doing everything right, and my diet is definitely the missing piece of the puzzle. I think I probably have about 60 pounds more to go before I am even remotely near where I should be. So yes, I am obese.

I've had some side conversations with The Engineer and he's been extremely helpful. Honestly, the PSMF setup kind of suits my mentality. I like to go ALL OUT for shorter periods of time....I like the challenge....I am not stupid though and I have A LOT more research to do on this before I will try it. The Engineer has given me plenty to look at, but time is limited right now and I haven't had that chance yet.

Also going on a fast 2 weeks before Thanksgiving may not be good planning.....
It's not a fast per se.
You're just eating protein.
At your weight, you'll probably enter ketosis.

And fasting re-sensitizes the body to NEAA/EAAs. If you're lean, use up to twenty grams of leucine. Obviously you won't get desensitized to leucine then, but it will halt muscle catabolism. Pair it with a b2 agonist and you're golden.
Don't believe the broscience that's peddled here or on other boards.

People fück up fasting because they exit the fast with the wrong food.
One may exit with protein and fats or just protein. Carbs will just lead to weight gain.

Even though we're at different body fat levels, you can do a PSMF Monday through Wednesday afternoon, then do a full body workout and carb up between pwo and the thanksgiving meal.
 
Abe Lincoln

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Ah gotcha man. I've seen some good results for guys, but if you are already lean like I was when I tried it.. It is just **** lol. Rather walk the marathon than sprint.
 
HIT4ME

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So, I still haven't had time to look into the PSMF as much as I'd like to - but I'm considering it. I'm thinking of planning and then hitting it right after T-day next week. We will see.....I have so much to learn about it, but it actually looks like it could be a cheap way to eat too - dozens of egg whites, tons of chicken, and just a small amount of broccoli/spinach....maybe I'll run it for 2-3 weeks between holidays. haha - easier said than done.

Anyway, I FINALLY got my capsaicin in today. I was trying to weigh out 10 mg on my scale, which is hard, so I could take one dose with everything else - and my gf thought her pipette would help. She blew air into the pouch and 1 minute later I was sneezing and coughing for about 10-15 minutes. It didn't burn like I expected, but it was irritating for sure.

About 15 minutes after I parachuted all my powders and 10 grams of MCT, my stomach was burning...but that wasn't bad and it went away after about another 20 minutes. I expected to be sweating or something, but I really don't have any of that.
 

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