Best PA product?

mmorso

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I ran 8 weeks of Muscletech phosphamuscle and took a break to run x-gels. Now that I'm a couple weeks in to an ArA/Alphamax run and noticing the swell, I'm thinking of getting some more PA. It's still not really clear to me if PA should be cycled to ensure that you don't get use to it.. So advice there would be appreciated.

I'm reluctant to go the SL route, since it sounds like a b*tch and have been looking at OL tr1ump and Biotest micro-PA (tho this seems ridiculously overpriced).. What do y'all prefer, for guys that aren't doing the SL granules? I was really impressed with phosphamuscle but am curious about trying something new.
 
john.patterson

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SL granules will be your cheapest option. Tr1umph will be your best all around option. Flavor is phenomenal, and all the extra ingredients added into the profile makes its an awesome product. I've used the granules in the past, but after trying Tr1umph once I'll never go back haha. Phosphamuscle is effective, but very overpriced IMO
 
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Alpha1a

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SL granules will be your cheapest option. Tr1umph will be your best all around option. Flavor is phenomenal, and all the extra ingredients added into the profile makes its an awesome product. I've used the granules in the past, but after trying Tr1umph once I'll never go back haha. Phosphamuscle is effective, but very overpriced IMO
Since we are on the subject I'm bout to start taking tr1umph what do you recommend for dosage ? Never ran any SL before was planning just 1 scoop post workout?
 
mmorso

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Yeah Tr1umph looks impressive. Also the emulsifier factor for ArA I'm running is a plus, so I'm leaning towards it for sure... Anyone know if PA can be ran for months without loosing effectiveness? I'm honestly thinking about having it as one of my staple supps
 
Alpha1a

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Yeah Tr1umph looks impressive. Also the emulsifier factor for ArA I'm running is a plus, so I'm leaning towards it for sure... Anyone know if PA can be ran for months without loosing effectiveness? I'm honestly thinking about having it as one of my staple supps
I think Woody runs it as a staple would be a good person to ask
 
LeanEngineer

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I'm currently running triumph and anafuse and i really like them stacked together. I'd recommend triumph for sure.
 
mmorso

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Another side question; anyone ever take PA on a ketogenic diet? I'm thinking of trying to cut soon and thought of doing a TKD taking tr1umph pwo. Seems like a carb up effect would be the sh*t with PA...
 

alvin1

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I'm currently running triumph and anafuse and i really like them stacked together. I'd recommend triumph for sure.
You are always pushing anafuse, does this is a house brand from strong supplement? Do you have any motive?
 

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PA should continue to prove beneficial over lengthy periods ie 6 months +
 
Woody

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I think Woody runs it as a staple would be a good person to ask
thanks for the mention

Yeah Tr1umph looks impressive. Also the emulsifier factor for ArA I'm running is a plus, so I'm leaning towards it for sure... Anyone know if PA can be ran for months without loosing effectiveness? I'm honestly thinking about having it as one of my staple supps
I've been running PA for about 8+ months and triumph since it came out. Definitely want to run triumph/PA for a few months for best results. I highly enjoy it. Strawberry Banana is getting good reviews
 
cheftepesh1

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I've used a few brands. Waiting for pipping rock to have sale again to stock up.
 
mmorso

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thanks for the mention



I've been running PA for about 8+ months and triumph since it came out. Definitely want to run triumph/PA for a few months for best results. I highly enjoy it. Strawberry Banana is getting good reviews
In the 8 months you've been taking it, have you tried cutting or gone in a caloric deficit? I'm curious as to how triumph would do, with the betaine, LCLT, and capsaicin... Seems like a versatile product to run long term
 
Woody

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In the 8 months you've been taking it, have you tried cutting or gone in a caloric deficit? I'm curious as to how triumph would do, with the betaine, LCLT, and capsaicin... Seems like a versatile product to run long term
I have not but I'll be cutting in about 2-3 months and will still be using it then. It's only 105 calories and 8g fat so I'll make it fit.
 
banjobounce

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In the 8 months you've been taking it, have you tried cutting or gone in a caloric deficit? I'm curious as to how triumph would do, with the betaine, LCLT, and capsaicin... Seems like a versatile product to run long term
If I am not mistaken, Capsacin increases mTOR, so I would imagine that it would stack nicely. I have been taking SL granules ~2hrs pre and taking cayenne pepper ~ 15 min pre going off of this notion. I used to avoid this simply due to the painful burn in my gut from the cayenne. Fortunately, this does not happen anymore, for whatever reason.
 
Alpha1a

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PA should continue to prove beneficial over lengthy periods ie 6 months +
thanks for the mention



I've been running PA for about 8+ months and triumph since it came out. Definitely want to run triumph/PA for a few months for best results. I highly enjoy it. Strawberry Banana is getting good reviews
How do you guys recommend the dosing on it 1 scoop pre or post ?
 
john.patterson

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Since we are on the subject I'm bout to start taking tr1umph what do you recommend for dosage ? Never ran any SL before was planning just 1 scoop post workout?
Tr1umph would be 1 scoop 15-20 minutes pre. People have different opinions on how much SL per dose, but I would always do 2 tbsp preworkout
 

ma70

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One thing to note is that Micro-PA uses SEDDS, which may or may not increase it's effectiveness. There's some anecdote stating that this is true, experienced by certain people, but not many people are willing to pony up for Micro-PA and test it against others with similar variables and training routines.
 

Robert5891

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I ran 8 weeks of Muscletech phosphamuscle and took a break to run x-gels. Now that I'm a couple weeks in to an ArA/Alphamax run and noticing the swell, I'm thinking of getting some more PA. It's still not really clear to me if PA should be cycled to ensure that you don't get use to it.. So advice there would be appreciated.

I'm reluctant to go the SL route, since it sounds like a b*tch and have been looking at OL tr1ump and Biotest micro-PA (tho this seems ridiculously overpriced).. What do y'all prefer, for guys that aren't doing the SL granules? I was really impressed with phosphamuscle but am curious about trying something new.
It hasn't been released yet.... ;)
 
The_Old_Guy

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If you like to dose more SL, you need to still use Granules - Triumph wouldn't be the best value there. I use both, Triumph Pre and 2 Tbs Granules Post.

The study used 450mg PA Pre, and 350mg Post, so that's the minimum.
 

macwad

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Tr1ump is the best option. You get PA and a lot more. It's a staple for me.
 

Mister_T_

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+1 for TR1UMPH.

I was hesitant when the product was released, now I wish I hadn't waited so long
 

bpowell1985

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+1 for TR1UMPH.

I was hesitant when the product was released, now I wish I hadn't waited so long
Lots of love for Tr1umph and rightfully so, OL puts out amazing products. I wish I would give it a go but I have a question/concern regarding the 15g of Soy Lecithin, is that much really safe for consumption without side effects? The only reason I ask is I have read things regarding this like "a compound of soy lecithin, phytoestrogen, can produce effects on the body similar to the hormone estrogen." <---- that was on the Livestrong website. It also makes mention "In 2007, the GMO Compass reported that soy lecithin, like many food products in American supermarkets, contained genetically modified soy, and in a study published in the "Journal of Applied Toxicology" discovered that mice fed GM soybean developed a decrease in pancreatic function. Although the nutrition of the soy was not altered, the study showed that as few as five days of feeding GM food caused pancreatic cellular changes, which were reversed after 30 days of non-GM foods."
Of course everything found online should be taken with a grain of salt, but I wanted to get everyone's input as many people consume SL for the PA content. Thanks all.
 
Spaniard

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I've been working on products with the guys over at ChemiNutra for over a year now. Solid, solid guys that care greatly about their ingredients. Here's a study they just funded:

Abstract Background: Phosphatidic acid (PA) is a lipid messenger that has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis via signaling stimulation of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). MaxxTOR® (MT) is a supplement that contains PA as the main active ingredient but also contains other synergistic mTOR signaling substances including L-Leucine, Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate (HMB), and Vitamin D3. Methods: Eighteen healthy strength-trained males were randomly assigned to a group that either consumed MT (n =8,22.0+/− 2.5years;175.8+/− 11.5 cm; 80.3 +/− 15.1 kg) or a placebo (PLA) (n=10, 25.6 +/− 4.2 years; 174.8 +/− 9.0 cm; 88.6 +/− 16.6 kg) as part of a double-blind, placebo controlled pre/post experimental design. All participants volunteered to complete the three day per week resistance training protocol for the eight week study duration. To determine the effects of MT, participants were tested on one repetition maximum (1RM) leg press strength (LP), 1RM bench press strength (BP), push-ups to failure (PU), vertical jump (VJ), pro-agility shuttle time (AG), peak power output (P), lean body mass (LBM), fat mass (FM), and thigh muscle mass (TMM). Subjects were placed and monitored on an isocaloric diet consisting of 25 protein, 50 carbohydrates, and 25 % fat by a registered dietitian. Separate two-way mixed factorial repeated measures ANOVA’s (time [Pre, Post] x group [MT and PLA] were used to investigate strength, body composition, and other performance changes. Post-hoc tests were applied as appropriate. Analysis were performed via SPSS with significance at (p ≤ 0.05). Results: There was a significant main effect (F(1,16) = 33.30, p < 0.001) for LBM where MT significantly increased LBM when compared to the PLA group (p<0.001). Additionally, there was a significant main effect for LP (F(1,16) =666. 74, p <0.001) and BP (F(1,16) = 126.36, p < 0.001) where both increased significantly more in MT than PLA group (p <0. 001). No significant differences between MT and PLA were noted for FM, TMM, VJ, AG, P, or PU. Conclusion: The results of this eight week trial suggest that the addition of MaxxTOR® to a 3-day per week resistance training program can positively impact LBM and strength beyond the results found with exercise alone. Keywords: Phospholipid, Muscle protein synthesis, Hypertrophy, Lean body mass, Fat mass

Full text: http://www.jissn.com/content/13/1/24
 
Spaniard

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I tried cleaning that up, posting mobile it won't let me structure it.

Before you condemn funding sources, competing interests and the like, look at the FULL text, in the acknowledgements.
 
moosemanry

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I've only just started my stack but the granules aren't that big of a deal to me. I just take a tablespoon and wash it down with mesomorph or water. Too early for me to say about results bur as far convenience I think they're just as easy as mixing a drink.
 
StatePlan1425

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I tried cleaning that up, posting mobile it won't let me structure it.

Before you condemn funding sources, competing interests and the like, look at the FULL text, in the acknowledgements.
Thanks for the study post. Competing interests aside, look forward to reviewing and the critique/comments of the AM family.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Thanks for the study post. Competing interests aside, look forward to reviewing and the critique/comments of the AM family.
I don't have a problem with it - since everything in MaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTor can be had in bulk, cheap. It confirms Wilson, and shows that buying a kilo of bulk HMB-CA and 5,000 gelcaps of Vitamin D at Costco - may be a good idea :D

I get leery when it's some Trademark named substance that is "grown by castrated Tibetan Monks on a mountain in the upper Andes, and can only be obtained by us" :D
 
StatePlan1425

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TOG, as always appreciate your candor. I hadn't heard of this particular brand before and agree the marketing/price is a bit much (but guessing some individuals will pay for conveniency). But I agree that the study gives us another level of confidence that our PA experiences aren't mass placebo effect ;-)
 
The_Old_Guy

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TOG, as always appreciate your candor. I hadn't heard of this particular brand before and agree the marketing/price is a bit much (but guessing some individuals will pay for conveniency). But I agree that the study gives us another level of confidence that our PA experiences aren't mass placebo effect ;-)
I have no problem with products like this because to some, convenience *is* huge (I recently traveled, which I rarely do, and my bulk stuff was a PITA). Convenience costs a bit more, and owning a business myself, I get it. Granules also give some gas, etc... (I get some gas - good thing I have my own gym :D). I tend to appreciate a company that says "Yeah, you can replicate our product with bulk raws if you want - we're not building nuclear submarines here", than one that tries to convince you that isolated Phosphatidic Acid is the *only* thing that will work, and Granules are a waste, etc... If this product isn't *too* outrageously priced, I'd get it if I traveled etc...
 
StatePlan1425

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Back to the OP's question, Danes has tried multiple PA sources and I believe he's partial to the already mentioned Micro-PA. Good to get his perspective as well.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I don't have a problem with it - since everything in MaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTor can be had in bulk, cheap. It confirms Wilson, and shows that buying a kilo of bulk HMB-CA and 5,000 gelcaps of Vitamin D at Costco - may be a good idea :D

I get leery when it's some Trademark named substance that is "grown by castrated Tibetan Monks on a mountain in the upper Andes, and can only be obtained by us" :D
Lecithin granules (3 tbsp) and bulk HMB-CA (3g) pre-workout (and whenever on rest days, not that you need many with HMB, is a great stack, and very cost effective (about $15/month) if you know where to look.
 

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Back to the OP's question, Danes has tried multiple PA sources and I believe he's partial to the already mentioned Micro-PA. Good to get his perspective as well.
He seems to be away from the boards (I keep in contact with him quite often), but as I said somewhere earlier, one thing people fail to realize is that Micro-PA uses SEDDS which MAY allow it to be more effective depending on the oral bioavailability of PA.
 
Spaniard

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I don't have a problem with it - since everything in MaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTor can be had in bulk, cheap. It confirms Wilson, and shows that buying a kilo of bulk HMB-CA and 5,000 gelcaps of Vitamin D at Costco - may be a good idea :D
I'm not really familiar with you, so I'm not sure how sarcastic you're being here lol but I personally am not too sold on a few studies here and there.
 
Spaniard

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He seems to be away from the boards (I keep in contact with him quite often), but as I said somewhere earlier, one thing people fail to realize is that Micro-PA uses SEDDS which MAY allow it to be more effective depending on the oral bioavailability of PA.
There are other ways to increase uptake as well :)
 

ma70

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There are other ways to increase uptake as well :)
I'm sure, but I'm simply pointing it out because I think people directly compare Micro-PA and Phosphamuscle but they are slightly different (of course, whether these slight differences mean anything is up in the air)
 

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I'm not really familiar with you, so I'm not sure how sarcastic you're being here lol but Wilson's data is pretty much worthless now.
Quick question. Does this mean you're formulating a PA product for a company?
 
Spaniard

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Quick question. Does this mean you're formulating a PA product for a company?
I actually can't disclose that. What I can say is that I use a few of their (ChemiNutra) ingredients.
 
Spaniard

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I'm sure, but I'm simply pointing it out because I think people directly compare Micro-PA and Phosphamuscle but they are slightly different (of course, whether these slight differences mean anything is up in the air)
Have you used the two? Which did you like better if so?
 

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Has anyone here used say, Fearn lecithin granduals and THEN a finished product/stand alone PA?

I'd be interested to know if they noticed any difference..
 

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I've used a few brands. Waiting for pipping rock to have sale again to stock up.
Anybody else use piping rock sl? Thinking about trying it to save a few more $$$.

Currently using fearn and phosphamuscle in combo.
 
mmorso

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I don't have a problem with it - since everything in MaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTor can be had in bulk, cheap. It confirms Wilson, and shows that buying a kilo of bulk HMB-CA and 5,000 gelcaps of Vitamin D at Costco - may be a good idea :D

Where do you get bulk HMB-CA? I'm spending too much on HMB at the moment but am lifting fasted in the am, so it's good peace of mind lol.
 
Jiigzz

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I'm not really familiar with you, so I'm not sure how sarcastic you're being here lol but Wilson's data is pretty much worthless now.
Ive been very skeptical of him since all his studies pretty much show groundbreaking results.
 
Spaniard

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Ive been very skeptical of him since all his studies pretty much show groundbreaking results.
Well, you know he left Tampa, right? If you're awares, look into why.
 
The_Old_Guy

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I'm not really familiar with you, so I'm not sure how sarcastic you're being here lol but Wilson's data is pretty much worthless now.
I wasn't being sarcastic. The 750mg PA study said it did something positive. Does it not do anything? I have no loyalty to Wilson, but saying his data (on this subject) is worthless, implies PA is worthless, no? He said it works.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Where do you get bulk HMB-CA? I'm spending too much on HMB at the moment but am lifting fasted in the am, so it's good peace of mind lol.
The same place I'd order a book.
 
Spaniard

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I wasn't being sarcastic. The 750mg PA study said it did something positive. Does it not do anything? I have no loyalty to Wilson, but saying his data (on this subject) is worthless, implies PA is worthless, no? He said it works.
PA has a TON more data than what he put out, which is fantastic.

Dude, there's even data in regards to male pattern baldness lol. It's a phenomenal compound. I've been playing with it for years!!!
 
The_Old_Guy

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In my opinion, all of Wilson's data is unreliable. Especially his HMB data, which makes sense since HMB is not that great. However, and this is a big however, PA has a TON more data than what he put out, which is fantastic.

Dude, there's even data in regards to male pattern baldness lol. It's a phenomenal compound. I've been playing with it for years!!!
Ok, so, he may be lacking, but PA is not, and his initial research isn't completely "tossable" it seems. HMB-CA has (at last count) 5? recent studies showing benefits in athletes at 3g/Day, so I like that one as well.

HMB For Endurance Athletes: 3g Regular HMB Make Elite Rowers ...
Aug 4, 2015 ...

Breakthrough HMB Research: Additional(!) 10% Reduction in Body ...
Mar 7, 2014 ...

HMB for Every, Not Just Strength Athletes? Lower Body Fat ...
Feb 13, 2016 ...

Regular Ca-HMB Boosts Strength and Performance in Elite Athletes ...
Apr 9, 2015 ...
The 'Versity search box.
 

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