Best PA product?

Danes

Danes

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Back to the OP's question, Danes has tried multiple PA sources and I believe he's partial to the already mentioned Micro-PA. Good to get his perspective as well.
I have tried different PA products but for me, Micro-PA worked best to be honest. I used to hate Biotest before but they are pretty good. Quality is top, Perfect doses +++.
I always felt difference betweeen Muscletech PHospha Muscle and Micro PA even they both has MediaTOR (50% enriched PA from SL).
I really didnt understand why I felt more from Micro PA (tried many times and different combinations) until I found Micro Pa contain SEDDS delivery method actually.
 
Danes

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In my opinion, all of Wilson's data is unreliable. Especially his HMB data, which makes sense since HMB is not that great. However, and this is a big however, PA has a TON more data than what he put out, which is fantastic.

Dude, there's even data in regards to male pattern baldness lol. It's a phenomenal compound. I've been playing with it for years!!!
HMB FA is pretty good compound and more studies will come.
In some countries HMB FA is used against muscle Atrophy while patients are on Corticosteroids (instead of giving them Anabolic steroids).
"New" study also show HMB FA increase IGF1 even after just 1g of ingestion.

I am taking 10g of HMB FA and it has relally changed my recovery to a total different level. HMB FA+PA = gains
 
mmorso

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I am taking 10g of HMB FA and it has relally changed my recovery to a total different level. HMB FA+PA = gains[/QUOTE]



Ive heard that you've got to take HMB-CA for months to saturate your system before it really works, whereas HMB-FA is immediately available. Anyone know if this is true or BS? Also, if HMB-FA has a better (immediate) bioavailability, can you just take 1 gram pre-workout to reduce muscle protein breakdown and not dose a full 3 g?
 
Spaniard

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Ok, so, he may be lacking, but PA is not, and his initial research isn't completely "tossable" it seems. HMB-CA has (at last count) 5? recent studies showing benefits in athletes at 3g/Day, so I like that one as well.



The 'Versity search box.
One thing I try to avoid at all costs is confirmation bias. I'll have to look a little more into HMB Ca when I have some free time. The one thing about that article you quoted uses the Wilson study as a citation. The other study is somewhat suspect as well, as they stated lean mass accrual but didn't furnish any data in regards to gains.

"strength values developed significantly faster (see Figure 1) and the scientists claim there were increases in lean mass in the abstract; eventually both groups lost weight, though, so if there were lean mass increases there must have been a similar loss of body fat as in the Wilson study) commensurate with strength gains associated with endurance training in competitive athletes who lifted thrice per day for 6 hrs/week (1 to 3 sets of 2 to 8 repetitions at intensities ranging from 80 to 95% of 1 RM) on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and performed an additional 10 hrs/wk of sprint-specific training and technical assistance with the boat."

I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't like, so don't misunderstand that. That's great that you've found something that you believe in and that you think works for you. Even if you drank grasshopper antennae extract and you gained with it and believe in it, that's great!
 
Spaniard

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HMB FA is pretty good compound and more studies will come.
In some countries HMB FA is used against muscle Atrophy while patients are on Corticosteroids (instead of giving them Anabolic steroids).
"New" study also show HMB FA increase IGF1 even after just 1g of ingestion.

I am taking 10g of HMB FA and it has relally changed my recovery to a total different level. HMB FA+PA = gains
More studies will come - That's awesome, I look forward to seeing them and getting more info!

"In some countries HMB FA is used against muscle Atrophy while patients are on Corticosteroids (instead of giving them Anabolic steroids)."

Unfortunately that's not really relevant to groups of bodybuilders that are (hopefully) healthy individuals. It shows possibility that warrants further investigation.

New study - to what extent is IGF1 raised? That's what you should be interested in. Even small increases are deemed as a point of significance, which leads to "so and so lead to a significant increase in IGF1 while placebo remained unchanged." Any degree of change can be seen as significant. Whereas significant used outside of clinical application to us would mean a lot.

Again, that's great that you really enjoy it. I'm glad it works for you anecdotally but I remain skeptical none the less.
 
Danes

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More studies will come - That's awesome, I look forward to seeing them and getting more info!

"In some countries HMB FA is used against muscle Atrophy while patients are on Corticosteroids (instead of giving them Anabolic steroids)."

Unfortunately that's not really relevant to groups of bodybuilders that are (hopefully) healthy individuals. It shows possibility that warrants further investigation.

New study - to what extent is IGF1 raised? That's what you should be interested in. Even small increases are deemed as a point of significance, which leads to "so and so lead to a significant increase in IGF1 while placebo remained unchanged." Any degree of change can be seen as significant. Whereas significant used outside of clinical application to us would mean a lot.

Again, that's great that you really enjoy it. I'm glad it works for you anecdotally but I remain skeptical none the less.
I do understand you are sceptical and respect that.
I have tried tons of natural compounds even in high doses etc. HMB FA is one of few ingredients that helped my size and strength:)
 
Danes

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I am taking 10g of HMB FA and it has relally changed my recovery to a total different level. HMB FA+PA = gains


Ive heard that you've got to take HMB-CA for months to saturate your system before it really works, whereas HMB-FA is immediately available. Anyone know if this is true or BS? Also, if HMB-FA has a better (immediate) bioavailability, can you just take 1 gram pre-workout to reduce muscle protein breakdown and not dose a full 3 g?[/QUOTE]

1g is better than nothing but i am rather taking more than 3g instead of less than 3g
 
Spaniard

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I do understand you are sceptical and respect that.
I have tried tons of natural compounds even in high doses etc. HMB FA is one of few ingredients that helped my size and strength:)
I'm not sure how you can afford HMB FA at 10g daily hahaha! Send me some!
 
Danes

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I'm not sure how you can afford HMB FA at 10g daily hahaha! Send me some!
I will be honest :)
I am drugdealer... J/k :D
Well, I dont smoke, dont drink alcohol, never go on parties etc. And I do order supps from US. HMB FA such as clear Muscle is 100$ bottle in Norway.
I can almost get 3 bottles from US for the same price I need to pay here! (
 
mbonheur

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I will be honest :)
I am drugdealer... J/k :D
Well, I dont smoke, dont drink alcohol, never go on parties etc. And I do order supps from US. HMB FA such as clear Muscle is 100$ bottle in Norway.
I can almost get 3 bottles from US for the same price I need to pay here! (
There is a Dutch company selling 84 caps at 15€ (1+1 free), hence 168 caps for 15€
 
The_Old_Guy

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I've been working on products with the guys over at ChemiNutra for over a year now. Here's a study they just funded:

..."MaxxTOR® (MT) is a supplement that contains PA as the main active ingredient but also contains other synergistic mTOR signaling substances including L-Leucine, Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate (HMB), and Vitamin D3.

Spaniard,

I guess my point was that I found it perplexing that I read your initial post above, but then saw later posts from you that stated (in laymen's terms) that Wilson's Data on PA was garbage, and HMB isn't that great.

Were you involved with MaxxTor? Or did you just put that up for the PA part? Because it comes across that you were somehow involved with MaxxTor... which should mean you are pro PA and HMB :D

In any case, Wilson may have been a broken clock that happened to be right at PA o'clock, but he said it worked and Now ChemiNutra says so as well. That's all I was pointing out. As far as HMB, my concentration is on the Calcium Bound version, I could care less about FA - too expensive. That Wilson cite was probably used because they pointed out his FA work when comparing it to CA. For $50/Year those studies are good enough for me to take it as a staple. Not so sure about the Grasshopper Antennae though :D I've tried a *whole bunch* of stuff that's pimped on here that didn't add even a 2.5lb plate to the bar :D
 
Spaniard

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Spaniard,

I guess my point was that I found it perplexing that I read your initial post above, but then saw later posts from you that stated (in laymen's terms) that Wilson's Data on PA was garbage, and HMB isn't that great.

Were you involved with MaxxTor? Or did you just put that up for the PA part? Because it comes across that you were somehow involved with MaxxTor... which should mean you are pro PA and HMB :D

In any case, Wilson may have been a broken clock that happened to be right at PA o'clock, but he said it worked and Now ChemiNutra says so as well. That's all I was pointing out. As far as HMB, my concentration is on the Calcium Bound version, I could care less about FA - too expensive. That Wilson cite was probably used because they pointed out his FA work when comparing it to CA. For $50/Year those studies are good enough for me to take it as a staple. Not so sure about the Grasshopper Antennae though :D I've tried a *whole bunch* of stuff that's pimped on here that didn't add even a 2.5lb plate to the bar :D
Understandable, a lot of times I'm posting from mobile due to my busy schedule, so in hindsight my post probably warranted a more thorough explanation of my stance.

I am a big fan of PA, I have been for a long time. I'm not sold on HMB, which is why I think it's "not that great". I admittedly need to look into HMB Ca some more as its been a while since I've gone over its data.

I am in no way affiliated with that study or MaxxTor. You assume correctly that I put it up for PA, as I do think it's showing a great deal of promise and have personally had great experiences with it.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Awesome, thanks for the clarification, no longer confused :D
 
muscleupcrohn

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Spaniard,

I guess my point was that I found it perplexing that I read your initial post above, but then saw later posts from you that stated (in laymen's terms) that Wilson's Data on PA was garbage, and HMB isn't that great.

Were you involved with MaxxTor? Or did you just put that up for the PA part? Because it comes across that you were somehow involved with MaxxTor... which should mean you are pro PA and HMB :D

In any case, Wilson may have been a broken clock that happened to be right at PA o'clock, but he said it worked and Now ChemiNutra says so as well. That's all I was pointing out. As far as HMB, my concentration is on the Calcium Bound version, I could care less about FA - too expensive. That Wilson cite was probably used because they pointed out his FA work when comparing it to CA. For $50/Year those studies are good enough for me to take it as a staple. Not so sure about the Grasshopper Antennae though :D I've tried a *whole bunch* of stuff that's pimped on here that didn't add even a 2.5lb plate to the bar :D
This. HMB-FA is expensive, but HMB-CA is ~$50/year. I'm a fan of high volume and frequency training, so it's a nice thing to have IMO. I feel it helps me with recovery and allows me to get in some more training sessions, which, paired with PA, means more progress. I like the combo, especially since you can get the two for a total of ~$15/month.
 
mmorso

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This. HMB-FA is expensive, but HMB-CA is ~$50/year. I'm a fan of high volume and frequency training, so it's a nice thing to have IMO. I feel it helps me with recovery and allows me to get in some more training sessions, which, paired with PA, means more progress. I like the combo, especially since you can get the two for a total of ~$15/month.
Lol I still can't find HMB-CA for less than 24$ for 90 1g tabs. WTF
 
mmorso

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Started Tr1umph 4 days ago and don't notice the muscle fullness I got with phosphamuscle... which I felt an hour after the first dose... Anyone using Tr1umph know how long it usually takes to feel the effects of the PA?
 
cheftepesh1

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goodvibes

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I ran hmb-fa for 16 weeks at suggested dose but didn't feel or notice a difference. I was on a bulk and when I stopped taking it I can tell my recovery was the same. Have to say I'm disappointed but it's good I can cross one more product off my list to try.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I ran hmb-fa for 16 weeks at suggested dose but didn't feel or notice a difference. I was on a bulk and when I stopped taking it I can tell my recovery was the same. Have to say I'm disappointed but it's good I can cross one more product off my list to try.
Did you add volume and/or frequency to your training ("overreaching")?
 
goodvibes

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Good old ara/abe combo blew hmb-fa/pa combo out the water for me
 
muscleupcrohn

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Good old ara/abe combo blew hmb-fa/pa combo out the water for me
I'd say ARA> HMB for most people most of the time. Did you add a lot of volume and/or frequency? That's the only time I'd use HMB. PA is probably my favorite though.
 
goodvibes

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Did you add volume and/or frequency to your training ("overreaching")?
I switched from 5x5 type program to high volume/hypertrophy. I run a lot of supersets and sets to failure towards the end or second half of my workouts.
 
goodvibes

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Either way I can tell it's just not a compound I'd spend money on again.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I switched from 5x5 type program to high volume/hypertrophy. I run a lot of supersets and sets to failure towards the end or second half of my workouts.

I like to do at least 12-15+ sets per body part 3 times per week when using HMB. FA is too expensive though, so I just use bulk HMB-CA for a fraction of the price. It's very cheap. It's cheap enough (~$15/month between the two) to run HMB-CA and PA (lecithin granules) as staples even.
 
goodvibes

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I like to do at least 12-15+ sets per body part 3 times per week when using HMB. FA is too expensive though, so I just use bulk HMB-CA for a fraction of the price. It's very cheap. It's cheap enough (~$15/month between the two) to run HMB-CA and PA (lecithin granules) as staples even.
16 sets per body part 5days a week is my minimum. I normally just do high volume tbh. My big lifts are always about 6-10 sets.
 
muscleupcrohn

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16 sets per body part 5days a week is my minimum. I normally just do high volume tbh. My big lifts are always about 6-10 sets.
I meant each body part 3x per week with 15 sets each session. Not sure it was clear in my previous post.
 
goodvibes

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I meant each body part 3x per week with 15 sets each session. Not sure it was clear in my previous post.
Ahhh.. That's too frequent for me. I probably won't be able to lift as heavy if I go that frequent at that amount of volume.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Ahhh.. That's too frequent for me. I probably won't be able to lift as heavy if I go that frequent at that amount of volume.
I set PRs (6-12 rep PRs) consistently that way with HMB+PA. Granted, I'm not pushing huge weights, and kept it to moderate-high reps, but I found it worked nicely. I still don't think I can justify the high price of HMB-FA when HMB-CA is so cheap. Even if it's not quite as good, it's something that can be added to a stack, and doesn't have to be the focus of it because of price. PA + HMB + Staple Product (CreMax XT for me) is a great base. Add in something like ABE or AlphaMax XT and you have a pretty damn nice natty stack.
 
DEVANS89

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Currently coming to the end of my first bottle of OG king, and say the middle of the bottle/end of the bottle the effects have really come on,

just looked at triumph, here in the uk its £39.99 which is pretty steep, where i get my king from its only 27.99.

While i would like to give triumph ago right now its just not worth it sadly
 
mbonheur

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Either way I can tell it's just not a compound I'd spend money on again.
The only way I felt something was by taking 3g pre workout (a little bit stronger and more endurance), but I agree, nothing to write home about
 
Nordicpower

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I Take 750mg pre and post with betaine, aminos, and some homemade pwo and i notict that my muscles are fuller than without. But i buying a swedish brand.
 
mmorso

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Anyone taking Tr1umph still take creatine mono? I'm convinced that creatine HCI is bullsh*t though I might be under-dosing... I've run con-crete and a couple tubs of creactor back to back at 1500mg creatine HCI...
 
machinehead

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Ahhh.. That's too frequent for me. I probably won't be able to lift as heavy if I go that frequent at that amount of volume.
That's one scenario where HMB may not shine: each bodypart once a week training. By the time next same workout comes you are both recovered and detrained (from waiting a full week) even without HMB.

You'd be able to lift heavier by splitting the volume in half and training bodyparts twice a week: that's a scenario where HMB shines. It makes for faster strength increases, at least for me. You say you do sets of 6-10. If you did sets of 6 for chest on say Monday sets of 10 for chest on, say, Thursday your poundages will shoot way up, so will muscle growth. Which is what works better for advanced guys anyway: higher frequency and higher intensity. Needless to say, I am using the original definition of intensity as % of your 1 rep max. I personally use sets of 3-9 so my intensity is never below 60% and often above 85%.
 

ma70

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Ahhh.. That's too frequent for me. I probably won't be able to lift as heavy if I go that frequent at that amount of volume.
HMB and certain other supplements work better with higher frequency. If you're bro splitting, then yeah...HMB is useless for you.
 
goodvibes

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HMB and certain other supplements work better with higher frequency. If you're bro splitting, then yeah...HMB is useless for you.
Really have to throw insults huh. Good luck on life, I wish people would read posts before throwing immaturity into the mix.
 

ma70

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Really have to throw insults huh. Good luck on life, I wish people would read posts before throwing immaturity into the mix.
How was that insulting? I'm saying that HMB will not help your style of training (which is why you didn't notice results).

Sorry if you thought I meant something else.
 
mmorso

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How was that insulting? I'm saying that HMB will not help your style of training (which is why you didn't notice results).

Sorry if you thought I meant something else.
Yeah I didn't see the insult either
 
mmorso

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Anyone dose Tr1umph post workout? I'm taking yohimbine pre and didn't want to make it useless by getting an insulin spike...
 
machinehead

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I don't, but it will work just as fine as far as PA is concerned.
 
mmorso

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First time I tried my strawberry banana triumph, I thought this would be good with vodka and ice... Just saying... Every time I drink it I think of some pool cabana bar in the Caribbean.
 
Volvo140G

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First time I tried my strawberry banana triumph, I thought this would be good with vodka and ice... Just saying... Every time I drink it I think of some pool cabana bar in the Caribbean.
HA!

Well.... was it? ;)
 
toddmuelheim

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IS EPIQ GOOD BC I GOT SOME
 
Lynks8

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muscleupcrohn

Forgive me if you've answered this 20 times already, but did you notice any performance differences between concentrated PA and granules?
 

ma70

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muscleupcrohn

Forgive me if you've answered this 20 times already, but did you notice any performance differences between concentrated PA and granules?
The effects are the same. The only performance issues lie in whether you can digest SL granules.
 

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