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Ben Stein's remarks From CBS Sunday Morning

And for clarification - in case you decide to research the term - I have been using noumena interchangeably with things-in-themselves. There is some scholastic debate as towards the synonymity of these terms, especially in regards to Kant-doggy-dog's writings. Here though, I used them synonymously to represent the actual spatio-temporal object itself, independent of the senses.
 
Ah, this is where you are making the mistake! They are the same thing [noumena and phenomena, that is]. As I said, you merely experiencing the 'thing' makes it a phenomenon.

OK, I gotcha.

So would Kant and company consider one understanding of oneself to be noumena or phenomena?
 
OK, I gotcha.

So would Kant and company consider one understanding of oneself to be noumena or phenomena?

That would depend on which definition of noumena you were using. If one takes noumena [as I do] to be synonymous with thing-in-itself, than the human mind would be a phenomenon. After all, the human mind, in a functioning capacity [which is how I believe you are mentioning it] necessitates other objects for referential identification - i.e., I am me because I am not you, nor anybody else.

If one takes noumena to mean "that which is thought" - which is a view many Anti-Kantians taken - than the human mind and understanding of self is the only noumenon.
 
OK, I gotcha.

So would Kant and company consider one understanding of oneself to be noumena or phenomena?
This is a fantastic question...I would even venture that it is both.
 
That would depend on which definition of noumena you were using. If one takes noumena [as I do] to be synonymous with thing-in-itself, than the human mind would be a phenomenon. After all, the human mind, in a functioning capacity [which is how I believe you are mentioning it] necessitates other objects for referential identification - i.e., I am me because I am not you, nor anybody else.

If one takes noumena to mean "that which is thought" - which is a view many Anti-Kantians taken - than the human mind and understanding of self is the only noumenon.

That make sense. I agree with your view. The human mind is nothing without external stimuli.

This stuff is interesting, but its stretching my brain!
 
That make sense. I agree with your view. The human mind is nothing without external stimuli.

This stuff is interesting, but its stretching my brain!

Now, here is the really interesting problematic:

Herein, I have labelled a noumenon an object-in-itself, and a phenomenon an object-for-the-subject [object of perception]. This distinction is made between both instances of a kind via perception itself. Now, by assuming these definitions the conscious mind is ostensibly phenomenological - directly accessible and perceivable by the sense organs of the human agent.

However, the subconscious mind, on the other hand, would seem to defy our accepted definition of phenomena. The subconscious mind would appear to be more akin to a noumena as we cannot directly access it vis-a-vis perception; it is a noumena.

So, does the object exist within the subject in this case?

Kant solved this problematic very metaphysically - claiming that the faculties of human intuition are noumenalogical, inaccessible and permanent. However, this has since been greatly challenged.
 
Now, here is the really interesting problematic:

Herein, I have labelled a noumenon an object-in-itself, and a phenomenon an object-for-the-subject [object of perception]. This distinction is made between both instances of a kind via perception itself. Now, by assuming these definitions the conscious mind is ostensibly phenomenological - directly accessible and perceivable by the sense organs of the human agent.

However, the subconscious mind, on the other hand, would seem to defy our accepted definition of phenomena. The subconscious mind would appear to be more akin to a noumena as we cannot directly access it vis-a-vis perception; it is a noumena.

So, does the object exist within the subject in this case?

Kant solved this problematic very metaphysically - claiming that the faculties of human intuition are noumenalogical, inaccessible and permanent. However, this has since been greatly challenged.

What did he mean by faculties of human intuition?
 
Metaforms through which judgments are made on phenomenon. In order to overcome the problematic issued above, Kant postulated them as unchanging and inaccessible; essentially, claiming that through some metaphysical force each human is endowed with these faculties a priori of experiencing, necessarily ensuring they are not phenomenological.
 
So, does the object exist within the subject in this case?

Kant solved this problematic very metaphysically - claiming that the faculties of human intuition are noumenalogical, inaccessible and permanent. However, this has since been greatly challenged.
As well they should, perhaps POTENTIALLY the sum of human faculties would be unchanging, those that can be employed at any point (incuding the subset of patterned/learned thought pattern (algorithm, if you will), programming/reinforcement, subconsciousness, perhaps even genetic meanderings) would mean that for all intents it WOULD be dynamic and changing.

So while we, in our wholeness, are unchanging as ourselves - the minute-by-minute phenomena are most definitely. What makes us truly odd is our self-reflection, seemingly at will, and the confusion our own actions cause us.

The object exists within the subject, while the subject IS the object, which is forced to try to twist perception around on itself and catch it peripherally.
 
Metaforms through which judgments are made on phenomenon. In order to overcome the problematic issued above, Kant postulated them as unchanging and inaccessible; essentially, claiming that through some metaphysical force each human is endowed with these faculties a priori of experiencing, necessarily ensuring they are not phenomenological.

Did he have anything to back that claim up? Given the backdrop of modern psychology and understandings of how the brain functions and learning work, that a priori notion seems pretty far fetched.
 
As well they should, perhaps POTENTIALLY the sum of human faculties would be unchanging, those that can be employed at any point (incuding the subset of patterned/learned thought pattern (algorithm, if you will), programming/reinforcement, subconsciousness, perhaps even genetic meanderings) would mean that for all intents it WOULD be dynamic and changing.

So while we, in our wholeness, are unchanging as ourselves - the minute-by-minute phenomena are most definitely. What makes us truly odd is our self-reflection, seemingly at will, and the confusion our own actions cause us.

The object exists within the subject, while the subject IS the object, which is forced to try to twist perception around on itself and catch it peripherally.

So if I understand you correctly, you consider most human actions to be phenomena, but the reflection on those actions to be noumenon?
 
Did he have anything to back that claim up? Given the backdrop of modern psychology and understandings of how the brain functions and learning work, that a priori notion seems pretty far fetched.

Oh no. German Idealism was theoretical, not pragmatic. Very persuasive arguments, though.
 
So if I understand you correctly, you consider most human actions to be phenomena, but the reflection on those actions to be noumenon?
I'm saying our very being is a thing in itself, while our actions (and dynamic "identity") and state of consciousness fools us into thinking it is noumenal, while actually being phenomenal. We think of ourselves as US (which we are) yet realistically, the things we do are somewhat of a true mystery even to us.

Hence, first you have to define & grasp "you", and in so doing you will find that we are both.
 
I'm saying our very being is a thing in itself, while our actions (and dynamic "identity") and state of consciousness fools us into thinking it is noumenal, while actually being phenomenal. We think of ourselves as US (which we are) yet realistically, the things we do are somewhat of a true mystery even to us.

Hence, first you have to define & grasp "you", and in so doing you will find that we are both.

One may also take a Hegelian view that all objects - including consciousness - are phenomenal in origin. Hegel posited this view in response to the problematic of infinite regression I mentioned prior [how can one delineate between knowable {phenomenal} and unknowable {noumenal} forms of knowledge without knowing both?]. The view espoused prior necessarily amounts to describing the nature of criteria of objects prior to knowing them, and apparently never having an ability to do so.

Essentially, the purpose of most Philosophies are to obtain Absolute Knowledge - or, in plainer terms, the ultimate nature of reality. However, this presents the paradox I have mentioned: How can we examine our ability to discover the Absolute, without first having a knowledge of the criterion which identify it? Simply, we cannot - we could only form such criterion if we already had the knowledge we seek to obtain.

Hegel would claim that the criterion for evaluating any object are not supplied externally, but internally; thus, in evaluating any object consciousness inevitably alters the object to conform to its knowledge - therefore, all objects become objects-for-the-subject. Through a series of dialectical movements [making objects conform to the knowledge of consciousness, then examining what it knows about this new object] consciousness comes to the realization that all objects and itself are one in the same [because every object is conformed to the internally supplied knowledge of consciousness].

In this light, Hegel would say, Absolute Knowledge is found in a self-reflective consciousness - only by way of constant dialectical movements does consciousness realize all objects are phenomenological, contained within itself.
 
One may also take a Hegelian view that all objects - including consciousness - are phenomenal in origin. Hegel posited this view in response to the problematic of infinite regression I mentioned prior [how can one delineate between knowable {phenomenal} and unknowable {noumenal} forms of knowledge without knowing both?]. The view espoused prior necessarily amounts to describing the nature of criteria of objects prior to knowing them, and apparently never having an ability to do so.

Essentially, the purpose of most Philosophies are to obtain Absolute Knowledge - or, in plainer terms, the ultimate nature of reality. However, this presents the paradox I have mentioned: How can we examine our ability to discover the Absolute, without first having a knowledge of the criterion which identify it? Simply, we cannot - we could only form such criterion if we already had the knowledge we seek to obtain.

Hegel would claim that the criterion for evaluating any object are not supplied externally, but internally; thus, in evaluating any object consciousness inevitably alters the object to conform to its knowledge - therefore, all objects become objects-for-the-subject. Through a series of dialectical movements [making objects conform to the knowledge of consciousness, then examining what it knows about this new object] consciousness comes to the realization that all objects and itself are one in the same [because every object is conformed to the internally supplied knowledge of consciousness].

In this light, Hegel would say, Absolute Knowledge is found in a self-reflective consciousness - only by way of constant dialectical movements does consciousness realize all objects are phenomenological, contained within itself.
Correct...and the exercise in question becomes...how can that which IS and experiences the process of being NOT know one's self?

/by the way, how much did Hegel bench?
 
Correct...and the exercise in question becomes...how can that which IS and experiences the process of being NOT know one's self?

/by the way, how much did Hegel bench?

Ignorant self-regression. When one realizes that the object not only exists for the subject, but is the subject, then Consciousness realizes itself in Absolute!
 
As long as we are on Philosophical problematics, why is it that my Entourage for Mac '08 will not send any outgoing mail? I have the smtp server set properly, as my Mac Mail works! This is infinitely pissing me off.
 
Not much. Look at this clown......scrawny shoulders and no pec development whatsoever. He's about as anabolic as my 3 year old daughter!

Your three year-old daughter is anabolic? I am surprised people on this site have not asked what kind of P.C.T., she needs.
 
Ignorant self-regression. When one realizes that the object not only exists for the subject, but is the subject, then Consciousness realizes itself in Absolute!
To prove that one thing is in fact everything, it is easier to prove that all things are one, than the other way around.

It is easier to show everything is a horse than to show a horse is the same as 10,000 other things.

Sorry, I just got a very doaist feeling from that post. Had to interject :P
 
To prove that one thing is in fact everything, it is easier to prove that all things are one, than the other way around.

It is easier to show everything is a horse than to show a horse is the same as 10,000 other things.

Sorry, I just got a very doaist feeling from that post. Had to interject :P

Well, the concept of sameness in the sense of your post stems from a certain Daoist foundationalism which is on a different side of the Philosophical spectrum than what I was speaking about!
 
Your three year-old daughter is anabolic? I am surprised people on this site have not asked what kind of P.C.T., she needs.

She's still natural but making great gains. In the past year and a half, she's doubled her body weight! I'll post her diet and training schedule if anyone is interested.
 
Well, the concept of sameness in the sense of your post stems from a certain Daoist foundationalism which is on a different side of the Philosophical spectrum than what I was speaking about!
After reading through your posts, not as much as you would think.

You say that defining an object changes it, and this is true is daoism. The only way we know a tree is a tree is to assign it a value; a name, a word. That changes it from what it was as simply a part of 10,000 things all the same. Changing something by assigning it a value.

then examining what it knows about this new object] consciousness comes to the realization that all objects and itself are one in the same [because every object is conformed to the internally supplied knowledge of consciousness].

I am not sure what daoism you are familiar with but that is 10,000 things into one.
 
After reading through your posts, not as much as you would think.

Not so. I think your mistaken analogy is stemming from a misunderstanding of both Hegel and my post.

You say that defining an object changes it, and this is true is daoism. The only way we know a tree is a tree is to assign it a value; a name, a word. That changes it from what it was as simply a part of 10,000 things all the same. Changing something by assigning it a value
Consciousness does not alter objects via external definitions, but is the object by presupposing the criterion through which it [consciousness] analyzes the object - in this way, values are not 'assigned', as you say here, but rather consciousness comes into a state whereby it realizes its mode of operation and the object of its operation are one in the same. From Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind/Spirit, "Freedom of Self-Consciousness. Stoicism: Skepticism: The Unhappy Consciousness" [pp.242]:

Independent self-consciousness partly finds its essential reality in the bare abstraction of Ego. On the other hand, when this abstract ego develops further and forms distinctions of its own, this differentiation does not become an objective inherently real content for that self-consciousness. Hence this self consciousness does not become an ego which truly differentiates itself in its abstract simplicity, or one which remains identical with itself in this absolute differentiation. The repressed and subordinate type of consciousness, on the other hand, becomes, in the formative activity of work, an object to itself, in the sense that the form, given to the thing when shaped and moulded, is his object; he sees in the master, at the same time, self-existence as a real mode of consciousness. But the subservient consciousness as such finds these two moments fall apart - the moment of itself as an independent object, and the moment of this object as a mode of consciousness, and so its own proper reality. Since, however, the form and the self-existence are for us, or objectively in themselves, one and the same, and since in the notion of independent consciousness the inherent reality is consciousness, the phase of inherent existence (Ansichsein) or thinghood, which received its shape and form through labour, is no other substance than consciousness

I am not sure what daoism you are familiar with but that is 10,000 things into one.

It is not, and as far as I know there is only one Dao/Taoism. :)
 
Not so. I think your mistaken analogy is stemming from a misunderstanding of both Hegel and my post.


Consciousness does not alter objects via external definitions, but is the object by presupposing the criterion through which it [consciousness] analyzes the object - in this way, values are not 'assigned', as you say here, but rather consciousness comes into a state whereby it realizes its mode of operation and the object of its operation are one in the same. From Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind/Spirit, "Freedom of Self-Consciousness. Stoicism: Skepticism: The Unhappy Consciousness" [pp.242]:





It is not, and as far as I know there is only one Dao/Taoism. :)
There is only one... but you already covered misunderstanding :P

I will add that book to my list of things to read... sounds very interesting.
 
There is only one... but you already covered misunderstanding :P

I will add that book to my list of things to read... sounds very interesting.

It is very dense and technical, but well worth it as one of the greatest accomplishments in Western-Thought.

I can see where you were making the connection between Taoism and Hegelian Dialectics, but the distinction is as I outlined above. In fact, Hegel actually wrote a section, albeit small, on Taoism in History of Philosophy.
 
And Rob: You and I are thread-killers. We immediately derail and monopolize every thread and turn it into a Philosophical debate.
 
Religion matters, whether right or wrong, because it exerts influence and even drives the behavior of billions of people worldwide.

Yes, it is a bit like the "Elephant in the room" in that way - whether or not you acknowledge it or choose to speak about it, it affects everything you do [unfortunately].
 
Wow did you put something I wrote into your sig.? That's a bit weird.

I think he put it in his signature because it is a tad contradictory and ironic! If the Government implemented all those security measures they would be taking away your rights. Slip of the tongue, no doubt.
 
I think he put it in his signature because it is a tad contradictory and ironic! If the Government implemented all those security measures they would be taking away your rights. Slip of the tongue, no doubt.
I should have had something about taking away firearms. I guess I got a fan.
 
I think he put it in his signature because it is a tad contradictory and ironic! If the Government implemented all those security measures they would be taking away your rights. Slip of the tongue, no doubt.

Not necessarily. It is legal for government conduct surveillance on individuals in public places. Think back to old cop movies where they secretly follow the bad guys in their cars. In fact, Baltimore does have cameras on what amounts to every street corner in high crime areas. People tend to overestimate their right to privacy in public areas. I will stipulate that its a big step/line to cross when government agents want to surveil someone when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
 
Not necessarily. It is legal for government conduct surveillance on individuals in public places. Think back to old cop movies where they secretly follow the bad guys in their cars. In fact, Baltimore does have cameras on what amounts to every street corner in high crime areas. People tend to overestimate their right to privacy in public areas. I will stipulate that its a big step/line to cross when government agents want to surveil someone when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

The quote he has in his sig. was in a thread about gun control.

I have no idea why that post gave him such a woody that he thinks he needs to share it every time he posts. I've probably said sillier things than that.

The whole deal is a bit weird maybe even slightly homo if you look at it from my side. I think I better change my avatar photo :) .
 
Not necessarily. It is legal for government conduct surveillance on individuals in public places. Think back to old cop movies where they secretly follow the bad guys in their cars. In fact, Baltimore does have cameras on what amounts to every street corner in high crime areas. People tend to overestimate their right to privacy in public areas. I will stipulate that its a big step/line to cross when government agents want to surveil someone when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Rob, I was commenting on the quote in Gixxer's signature - if the Government watched everything he did they would be taking away his rights. Remember everything constitutes private areas.
 
your post does give me a woody, and in fact, you look kinda cute too ;)

please get a life and drop it, the more you persist, the longer it stays in my sig. Knowing you are other there snarling at the fact I have you in my sig guarantees a longer duration before I get bored with it and change it.
:thumbsup:

Keep it in the sig. pumpkin.
 
Rob, I was commenting on the quote in Gixxer's signature - if the Government watched everything he did they would be taking away his rights. Remember everything constitutes private areas.

Right. I was referring to this portion of his post:

Tyler1 said:
I'd rather have the gov. watch everything I do, set up cameras on every street corner in the USA ,then have them take away my rights.
 
Ah, yes. Well, for the sake of not derailing this discussion further I will refrain from delving into my opinions on Systems of Panoptic Control [Foucault]!

Panopticism is interesting, though I think most people that think big brother is out to get them with this kind of system vastly overestimate their own self importance. With systems such as EZ-Pass, Cops use the systems as an investigative tool, but usually as a part of a prexisting investigation. I doubt seriously if they use the information as a source of a proactive investigation.

In my opinion, tax and monetary policy are exponentially more effective means of controlling a population than surveillance systems.
 
Panopticism is interesting, though I think most people that think big brother is out to get them with this kind of system vastly overestimate their own self importance. With systems such as EZ-Pass, Cops use the systems as an investigative tool, but usually as a part of a prexisting investigation. I doubt seriously if they use the information as a source of a proactive investigation.

In my opinion, tax and monetary policy are exponentially more effective means of controlling a population than surveillance systems.

Foucault positions tax and monetary policy as key elements in a Panoptic System of Control, Rob.

I believe you are considering Panopticism merely in its relation to the original term, Panopticon, and the associated architectural [physical] method of surveillance and control therein. Foucault extends Panopticism as not merely a physical structure, or a system of physical structures, but rather a social mechanism employed by various technologies. In this sense, the operative nature of a Panoptic System of Control is not individual surveillance itself, but rather implanting the [incognizant] self-limiting concepts of social obligation and control.

In this respect, we overcome your purely psychological and individualized analysis and reveal Foucault's Panopticism in a more adequate light.
 
Foucault positions tax and monetary policy as key elements in a Panoptic System of Control, Rob.

I believe you are considering Panopticism merely in its relation to the original term, Panopticon, and the associated architectural [physical] method of surveillance and control therein. Foucault extends Panopticism as not merely a physical structure, or a system of physical structures, but rather a social mechanism employed by various technologies. In this sense, the operative nature of a Panoptic System of Control is not individual surveillance itself, but rather implanting the [incognizant] self-limiting concepts of social obligation and control.

In this respect, we overcome your purely psychological and individualized analysis and reveal Foucault's in a more adequate light.

Oh, very cool. That sounds interesting. Which Foucault book did you find the Panopticism in? The only one I saw the term mentioned, was Discipline and Punish, and the summary I read of that doesn't fit with what you're saying....
 
It is in Discipline and Punishment, p. 198-255 in my version (1995 Publication).

But the Panopticon must not be understood as a dream building: it is the diagram of a mechanism of l power reduced to its ideal form; its functioning, abstracted from any obstacle, resistance or friction, must be represented as a pure architectural and optical system: it is in fact a figure of political technology that may and must be detached from any specific use.

It is polyvalent in its applications; it serves to reform prisoners, but also to treat patients, to instruct schoolchildren, to confine the insane, to supervise workers, to put beggars and idlers to work. It is a type of location of bodies in space, of distribution of individuals in relation to one another, of hierarchical organization, of disposition of centres and channels of power, of definition of the instruments and modes of intervention of power, which can be implemented in hospitals, workshops, schools, prisons. Whenever one is dealing with a multiplicity of individuals on whom a task or a particular form of behaviour must be imposed, the panoptic schema may be used. It is - necessary modifications apart - applicable 'to all establishments whatsoever, in which, within a space not too large to be covered or commanded by buildings, a number of persons are meant to be kept under inspection' (Bentham, 40; although Bentham takes the penitentiary house as his prime example, it is because it has many different functions to fulfil - safe custody, confinement, solitude, forced labour and instruction).

In each of its applications, it makes it possible to perfect the exercise of power. It does this in several ways: because it can reduce the number of those who exercise it, while increasing the number of those on whom it is exercised. Because it is possible to intervene at any moment and because the constant pressure acts even before the offences, mistakes or crimes have been committed. Because, in these conditions, its strength is that it never intervenes, it is exercised spontaneously and without noise, it constitutes a mechanism whose effects follow from one another. Because, without any physical instrument other than architecture and geometry, it acts directly on individuals; it gives 'power of mind over mind'. The panoptic schema makes any apparatus of power more intense: it assures its economy (in material, in personnel, in time); it assures its efficacity by its preventative character, its continuous functioning and its automatic mechanisms. It is a way of obtaining from power 'in hitherto unexampled quantity', 'a great and new instrument of government . . .; its great excellence consists in the great strength it is capable of giving to any institution it may be thought proper to apply it to' (Bentham, 66).

It's a case of 'it's easy once you've thought of it' in the political sphere. It can in fact be integrated into any function (education, medical treatment, production, punishment); it can increase the effect of this function, by being linked closely with it; it can constitute a mixed mechanism in which relations of power (and of knowledge) may be precisely adjusted, in the smallest detail, to the processes that are to be supervised; it can establish a direct proportion between 'surplus power' and 'surplus production'. In short, it arranges things in such a way that the exercise of power is not added on from the outside, like a rigid, heavy constraint, to the functions it invests, but is so subtly present in them as to increase their efficiency by itself increasing its own points of contact. The panoptic mechanism is not simply a hinge, a point of exchange between a mechanism of power and a function; it is a way of making power relations function in a function, and of making a function function through these power relations. Bentham's Preface to Panopticon opens with a list of the benefits to be obtained from his 'inspection-house': 'Morals reformed - health preserved - industry invigorated - instruction diffused -public burthens lightened - Economy seated, as it were, upon a rock - the gordian knot of the Poor-Laws not cut, but untied - all by a simple idea in architecture!' (Bentham, 39)
 
You would also need to read the Collected Interviews of Foucault [Contains Chomsky debates] to further understand Panopticism in its relation Re: Circular Relations of Truth and Power/Economies of Power.
 
:aargh:
You would also need to read the Collected Interviews of Foucault [Contains Chomsky debates] to further understand Panopticism in its relation Re: Circular Relations of Truth and Power/Economies of Power.

Good stuff. Sorry, it took me so long to respond. Out of town at the in-laws :aargh:
 
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