Bad Reaction to M4OHN; anyone else?

[jah_live10]

lets all watch the sales of M4OHN go down :thumbsup:

 

[milwood]

let's all get back to the AM love fest! Wow, this has been one hot topic. I am good on just about any discussion and debate. I do hope respect and open-mindedness stay the hallmarks of these dialogues rather than pissing matches. We're better leaving the bitterness and name-calling to those salty politicians and outsiders who don't understand us. Our energies are best channeled into intelligent conversation and sharing of information and experience. Thankfully, we have several reliable product sources, until the powers that be remove from us our choice to so indulge. We really only have others in places like this with whom we can discuss these things in a meaningful way. So up that phenibut dose and spread the love, dammit!!!

 

[synesta]

Actually I learned quite a bit from most of the post and appreciate the links and information.

 

[Brodus]

Its nice to embrace a pseudo-relativity, in which realities observed in neuroscience don't matter, but to any clinician, there IS a real difference on a physiological level between recereational drugs of abuse and androgens. Lumping them all together is what politicians do, which no one likes. To compare drugs of physical enhancement to drugs of debilitation is unfair on a thousand levels of analysis, no matter how you cut it.

Now, this post is relevant, b/c the topic is Parkinsons and things that may cause it. My hypothesis is that exposure to MDMA debilitates your dopamine receptors...actually it's not a hypothesis, it's proven, but it's relevant here because....well, you should know why it's relevant if you've read this far!!

The only MDMA study that was "debunked" was the John Hopkins study.

It is far from the only study ever done on the substance. Here's one from Stanford:


"A Stanford University researcher injected squirrel monkeys and baboons with three shots of Ecstasy, also known as MDMA, three hours apart, mimicking dosages "often used by MDMA users at all-night dance parties." He said the drug caused enduring damage to dopamine-producing neurons in the brains of the animals.

The damage was still evident two to six weeks later, said Dr. George A. Recaurte, the lead author the study appearing this week in the journal Science. But he said it is not clear if the damaged neurons will repair themselves, a key factor in whether Ecstasy could cause Parkinson's disease.

Parkinson's disease is a brain disorder triggered by the permanent loss of dopamine-producing nerve cells. "

Here's another:

Camarero, J., V. Sanchez, et al. (2002). J Neurochem 81(5): 961-72.

"The present study examined the mechanisms by which 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) produces long-term neurotoxicity of striatal dopamine neurones in mice and the protective action of the dopamine uptake inhibitor GBR 12909."

From another one, regarding permanence:

"The present results indicate that squirrel monkeys treated with MDMA and evaluated after a 7 year post-drug survival period continue to show altered brain 5-HT innervation patterns. These findings extend previous findings with MDMA (Insel et al., 1989Invalid Link Removed; Ricaurte et al., 1992Invalid Link Removed; Fischer et al., 1995Invalid Link Removed) and other substituted amphetamines (Woolverton et al., 1989Invalid Link Removed; McCann et al., 1994aInvalid Link Removed,bInvalid Link Removed) and suggest that MDMA-induced alterations of brain 5-HT innervation in nonhuman primates may be permanent."


Here's a few more:

[size=-1]Reneman L, Booij J, Lavalaye J, de Bruin K, Reitsma JB, Gunning B, den Heeten GJ, van Den Brink W. Use of amphetamine by recreational users of ecstasy (MDMA) is associated with reduced striatal dopamine transporter densities: a [(123)I]beta-CIT SPECT study -- preliminary report. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2002 Jan;159(3):335-340.[/size]

[size=-1]Hatzidimitriou G, Tsai EH, McCann UD, Ricaurte GA. Altered prolactin response to M-chlorophenylpiperazine in monkeys previously treated with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or fenfluramine. Synapse 2002 Apr;44(1):51-57.[/size]

[size=-1]Reneman L, Lavalaye J, Schmand B, de Wolff FA, van den Brink W, den Heeten GJ, Booij J. Cortical serotonin transporter density and verbal memory in individuals who stopped using 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or "ecstasy"): preliminary findings. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001 Oct;58(10):907-8.[/size]

[size=-1]Croft RJ, Klugman A, Baldeweg T, Gruzelier JH. Electrophysiological evidence of serotonergic impairment in long-term MDMA ("ecstasy") users. Am J Psychiatry 2001 Oct;158(10):1687-92.[/size]

[size=-1]Verkes RJ, Gijsman HJ, Pieters MS, Schoemaker RC, de Visser S, Kuijpers M, Pennings EJ, de Bruin D, Van de Wijngaart G, Van Gerven JM, Cohen AF. Cognitive performance and serotonergic function in users of ecstasy. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2001 Jan 1;153(2):196-202.[/size]

[size=-1]Kalant H. The pharmacology and toxicology of "ecstasy" (MDMA) and related drugs. CMAJ. 2001 Oct 2;165(7):917-28.
[/size]

[size=-1]Morgan MJ. Ecstasy (MDMA): a review of its possible persistent psychological effects. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2000 Oct;152(3):230-48[/size]

[size=-1]Invalid Link Removed.[/size]

[size=-1]Invalid Link Removed[/size]

[size=-1]Obrocki J, Buchert R, Vaterlein O, et al. Ecstasy— long-term effects on the human central nervous system revealed by positron emission tomography. Br J Psychiatry 1999; 175:186 -188.[/size]

[size=-1]Invalid Link Removed[/size]

[size=-1]McCann DU, Szabo Z, Scheffel U, et al. Positron emission tomographic evidence of toxic effect of MDMA (ecstasy) on brain serotonin neurons in human beings. Lancet 1998; 352:1433-1437.[/size]

[size=-1]Fischer C, Hatzidimitriou G, Wlos J, Katz J, Ricaurte G. Reorganization of ascending 5-HT axon projections in animals previously exposed to the recreational drug (+/-)3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"). J Neurosci 1995 Aug;15(8):5476-85
[/size]

[size=-1]Axt KJ, Mullen CA, Molliver ME. Cytopathologic features indicative of 5-hydroxytryptamine axon degeneration are observed in rat brain after administration of d- and l-methylenedioxyamphetamine. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1992 May 11;648:244-7. [/size]

[size=-1]Axt KJ, Molliver ME. Immunocytochemical evidence for methamphetamine-induced serotonergic axon loss in the rat brain. Synapse. 1991 Dec 9(4):302-13.[/size]


[size=-1]O'Hearn E, Battaglia G, De Souza EB, Kuhar MJ, Molliver ME. Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) and methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) cause selective ablation of serotonergic axon terminals in forebrain: immunocytochemical evidence for neurotoxicity. J Neurosci. 1988 Aug;8(8):2788-803.
[/size]

[size=-1]Ricaurte GA, Forno LS, Wilson MA, DeLanney LE, Irwin I, Molliver ME, Langston JW. (+/-)3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine selectively damages central serotonergic neurons in nonhuman primates. JAMA. 1988 Jul 1;260(1):51-5.[/size]

[size=-1]Battaglia G, Yeh SY, O'Hearn E, Molliver ME, Kuhar MJ, De Souza EB. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine destroy serotonin terminals in rat brain: quantification of neurodegeneration by measurement of [3H]paroxetine-labeled serotonin uptake sites. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1987 Sep; 242(3):911-6.[/size]

The fact is, if you've taken Ecstasy, you already know this. In a very laypersons explanation, MDMA essentially floods your brain with "feel good chemicals" in such a violent manner that the sacs that release them rupture and cannot refill to the same capacity. Again, if you've ever binged o this, you know it's true....you feel depressed for awhile afterwards.

Lastly, how many of you know long time MDMA abusers? How sharp are they? Sharp as a broomstick? Better, if MDMA is a gateway to self-realization and long-term improvement, how come all of the bands that get heavy into it rapidly suck ass within six months? I'm speaking from objectivity and a shitload of experience here; if it worked, why don't the bands who fall down the K-and-E-hole get better? Why do their "jams" get shittier and shittier, until they sound worse than high school jazz bands.

This is relevant, b/c if someone has been using MDMA and later has Parkinsons-like symptoms, Occam's Razor says this is the most likely cause, given what we know from animal studies and human brain scans.

I wish I were making this up, b/c MDMA is everywhere and it makes people feel good, but it's dirty ****, in my book. You're much better of taking LSD or smoking a joint.

 

[silverSurfer]

Most interesting post and well argued from different views.
Infohazard, I hope you recover fully and please keep us posted.

FWIW, I've used M4OHN at up to 24mg ED without side effects.

 

[rrgg]

Is this really just a subversive effort to dry up demand for m4ohn and reduce its price? Hmm...

 

[Brodus]

Damn...rrgg figured out the plan...someone stop him!

 

[bioman]

That's what I was hoping for..more for me!

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I'm starting my m4ohn cycle tomorrow because of this thread so I can find out for myself before the ban hits.

 

[jah_live10]

I'm starting my m4ohn cycle tomorrow because of this thread so I can find out for myself before the ban hits.

What dosages are you running?

I suggest you stack it alone...to examine its effectiveness.
keep a log bro.

 

[Cuffs]

I just wanted to drop an additional post in here to share another possible side I experienced while using M4OHN.

I'm not sure if this is a direct result of using this compound, or due to a change (increasing volume) in my routine. Towards the end of my cycle, I began to develope tendonitis on the outside portion of my right elbow. A week later, I developed tendonitis on the inside portion of my left elbow. I continued to train and finished my cycle. During my PCT, I took two weeks off from training. When I went back, the pain was the same. It's been a couple of months now, and I still have pain, not as bad.

 

[ahoym8e]

^ I'm guessing it's from the increase in your routine. I get "tennin elbow" from strenous and elevated excercise as well.

Give it time to heal.

 

[Brodus]

I think that is a common problem when you run androgens and rapidly increase poundages/volume before the tendons/ligaments have grown to accomodate.

Every cycle I have run that induced rapid strength gains left me with sore joints. M1T was the worst. It's usually elbows and shoulders for me. It's one of the reasons I spend most of my time natural...and also why pro BBers use GH and IGF-1; my understanding is these promote tendon/ligament repair/growth, and hence make up for the damage you cna do to yourself on androgens.

 

[Cuffs]

I understand all that, however, I had never ran into this problem while using other compounds, M1T included. During my cycle, my routine change was primarily increased reps, not poundage. You guys are more-than-likely right, and I do believe it may have been due to the increase in pull-ups and different angles and grips I was doing. I was just curious if any of the other bro's here experienced this while using M4OHN.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

You really sound like there is an underlying issue that needs to be adressed. The low estro may have precipitated it, but it's already there and just going to get worse. I suggest a combo like l-depryl/orphenedrine (as long as your nor already shakey) to rule out the dopaminergic system. Then, you could test your serotonergic paths.

If there is an underlying (static) issue that was brought forward by low E, I have all the time in the world to address it. It's not going anywhere.

If the dopaminergic tone were low for any reason, what would adding l-depryl/orphenedrine show?

FYI, I tend to run my serotonin rather hot using SAM-e or TMG (I mostly use it to keep liver healthy). High serotonin can reduce nigrostriatal tone.

 

[DR.D]

I'm starting my m4ohn cycle tomorrow because of this thread so I can find out for myself before the ban hits.

Has anyone tried Custom's powder? If so, is it any good?

 

[bioman]

That might explain a lot. If this is true I might see some pretty good results off my upcoming Sledge Test/M4OHN cycle without seeing too many gyno symptoms..we shall see. I'll start at the end of Oct and keep a log.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

I
but to any clinician, there IS a real difference on a physiological level between recereational drugs of abuse and androgens.

This is a classic example of the basic denial of reality. I mean, now what medical school did you graduate from?

Last I checked, anabolics were considered recreational drugs of abuse on the DEA controlled substances list, schedule III, and are banned in most athletic venues on pain of expulsion from the competition, and maybe the sport. Further this is common knowledge and is on the news every day.

And, as we all know, M4OHN falls into a partial loophole, but is on its way to getting banned in all 50 states.

Anabolics have very circumscribed clinical uses, and healthy people getting fit is not one of them. Any clinician (that values their DEA license) will tell you that.

Face it, you're using it recreationally. At least you can be honest with yourself about it.


--------------------------------

To compare drugs of physical enhancement to drugs of debilitation is unfair on a thousand levels of analysis, no matter how you cut it.

I'm not an alcoholic if I only drink beer!

Now, this post is relevant, b/c the topic is Parkinsons and things that may cause it. My hypothesis is that exposure to MDMA debilitates your dopamine receptors...actually it's not a hypothesis, it's proven, but it's relevant here because....well, you should know why it's relevant if you've read this far!!

Except that you keep flogging that dead horse. No one here has denied that there might be other factors at work. You just won't shut up about MDMA to take the spotlight off the fact that it was the M4OHN/6-OXO that precipitated the symptom.

You are obviously wanting to pick a fight with me over MDMA with your barrage of mixed truth and bullshit. I will only say the following and I will not further engage you in this issue.

1) It WAS Ricuarte's (McCann, et.al..) research that was invalidated. Period. I already said that but you weren't paying attention.

2) There are a great many methodological problems with studying MDMA users 'from the wild' due to the vast amounts of ****, including methamphetamine (as actually used in Ricuarte's studies) and worse found in street "Ecstasy." The NYT covers these first two issues in this article:
Invalid Link Removed

3) The dopaminergic data was so thoroughly discredited that the FDA, which had nixed human research protocols on MDMA after Ricuarte's papers came out has now changed their mind. A FULLY FDA, IRB and DEA APPROVED research protocol in humans is underway to study it's use in treating PTSD (a genuinely horrible disease).

Human subjects have been receiving MDMA in the US on this protocol since April 16, 2004
Invalid Link Removed


1)I would have no trouble finding dozens of scientific papers showing the damage done by anabolics, but you know and I know many of these paper came out for the specific purpose of smearing them. Right?

Lastly, how many of you know long time MDMA abusers? How sharp are they?

I know a number of people who have been using it since the mid 1970's. I would not describe them as abusers by the way.

No cognitive problems at all that I can see, and many of these folks are well up in age. I know one person who acidentally took 10X too much in about 1978. (no snide comments, I'm trying to actually answer your question; don't take advantage). She had a profoundly unpleasant experience and never took it again. She's fine. No cognitive or neurologic problems.

Sharp as a broomstick? Better, if MDMA is a gateway to self-realization and long-term improvement, how come all of the bands that get heavy into it rapidly suck ass within six months? I'm speaking from objectivity and a shitload of experience here; if it worked, why don't the bands who fall down the K-and-E-hole get better? Why do their "jams" get shittier and shittier, until they sound worse than high school jazz bands.

You just conflated ketamine with "ecstasy" with MDMA.

How do you know what they were taking? Were you watching over their sholders when they were taking it? Ketamine is a known neurotoxin (as are all dissociative anesthetics). They cuase something called "Olney's Lesions." Street "Ecstasy" as often as not is just pure **** (Meth, PMA, MDE, 2-CB, DXM, Caffiene, Ephederine.......).

I wish I were making this up, b/c MDMA is everywhere and it makes people feel good, but it's dirty ****, in my book. You're much better of taking LSD or smoking a joint.

OK. That's all on that subject from me. For those really interested in the facts on MDMA, go the the website of the people who are doing the clinical research and learn the truth without the propaganda.

They were able to convince the FDA, the DEA and their IRB. Don't listen to the crap that Brodus is spewing.

Invalid Link Removed

Again. I started this thread because I had a given problem with a given substance under given circumstances. I would think that folks would want to know about those things. With your massively (and still subtly) hostile response to anything that could represent bad news, I can tell you that I wouldn't do it over If I had the chance- at least not on this board. You (and everyone else) would only be hearing the good news. That's what denial is.


Brodus, If I didn't know better, I'd think you were addicted to steroids.



INFOHAZARD

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

What dosages are you running?

I suggest you stack it alone...to examine its effectiveness.
keep a log bro.

30mg split 4times/day.

 

[rrgg]

Last I checked, anabolics were considered recreational drugs of abuse on the DEA controlled substances list

Give me a break. The fact that there's an arbitrary federal label on something means very little. This is the same moronic federal government that claims GHB is a steroid.

U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services:
Invalid Link Removed

Infohazard- I'm not really taking sides here. For example I'm not so sure a hit of MDMA is more hazardous than LSD. Strictly speaking, you're argument that AAS can be "recreational" in some cases is not so crazy, but what does that say about estrogenic birth control? That also makes it "recreational" in the most literal sense.

Nevertheless, you seem a little dismissive about the fact that you're medical history is atypical. Considering this, it's hard for some of us to believe it's even possible to pinpoint the problem in your case. Maybe m4ohn poses the danger you suspect, but maybe it's not a danger unless you're also taking all that other stuff too. If that's true, most of the people here aren't worried about it personally. This isn't denial as you say, but a normal dubious response.

 

[bioman]

Well INFO it appears we all have our biases. You know what you felt on M4OHn and I know what I felt on M4OHN (other substances aside). Thus far I think of it as one the most pleasant PH there is but I do take your situation into consideration. If I get a case of the jitters or cogwheeling then we have data point number two but for now you are numero uno y solamente.

I agree that steroids are used recreationally but as a board we try to impart the wisdom of only using them to achieve goals. Enjoying the attainment of goal is a much greater high than any recreational drug or steroid can ever impart.

TO ALL MEMBERS...
I see no reason to fight over this one way or the other. The disagreements have produced some interesting reads and this is beneficial to the board BUT the level of disrespect displayed towards and by several members serves no purpose and will not be tolerated any longer.

The essence of spirited debate is conveying your opinion, beliefs or facts in away that does not attack your detracters. It's called being civil despite the fact you hate every word that is coming out of your opponent's mouth.

Being civil shows the true measure of a man. Anybody can get big but not everyone can truly be big.

 

[chasec]

You too? I was thinking my acne breakout the over the last week and a half was due to 5aa and the DHT it converts to. I started it and M4OHN at the same time so I couldn't be sure. I'm broke out on my chest, shoulders, neck, like I haven't been since I was 18.

yeah, it's been months (3!) since i came off, and this acne won't go away now. and that's the last compound that could even be considered remotely androgenic that i took. i wonder who else experienced this?

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Give me a break. The fact that there's an arbitrary federal label on something means very little. This is the same moronic federal government that claims GHB is a steroid.

U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services:
Invalid Link Removed

Infohazard- I'm not really taking sides here. For example I'm not so sure a hit of MDMA is more hazardous than LSD. Strictly speaking, you're argument that AAS can be "recreational" in some cases is not so crazy, but what does that say about estrogenic birth control? That also makes it "recreational" in the most literal sense.

I was responding to the very specific argument "any clinician" that Brodus was making. There is truth in what you are saying, but the "Any clinician" test is failed miserably. My own argument is that they should all be legal becuase of what you say, but the simple fact is, MOST CLINICIANS will disagree with Brodus' stand on anabolics, and to say otherwise is just absurd.

Nevertheless, you seem a little dismissive about the fact that you're medical history is atypical. Considering this, it's hard for some of us to believe it's even possible to pinpoint the problem in your case. Maybe m4ohn poses the danger you suspect, but maybe it's not a danger unless you're also taking all that other stuff too. If that's true, most of the people here aren't worried about it personally. This isn't denial as you say, but a normal dubious response.

I haven't argued with that point in the slightest. That doesn't mean it is trivial, however. It's still valuable knowledge for those using this never-tested drug.

Brodus is making it sound like I've been arguing against that point by putting up all kinds of straw men and knocking them down. Look at what I've actually been saying. I say I've had a bad reaction and am checking to see if anyone else has too. I'm making NO pronouncements.

INFOHAZARD

 

[bioman]

Point taken and I recognize this as the crux of your post. I too would likely report these symptoms to the board.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Objectivity.

RESPEK!

I'm totally not above trying it again if I think I can get around the side-effects, just like so many other side-effects have been gotten around. I just don't know if I want to move to sinemet or bromo....


Oh, yeah- here's a little nugget that someone dug up on another board where I brought this up. Again- not a condemnation, and I don't know how good this study is-

just fud for thot.



The effects of hormone therapy on cognition in breast cancer.

Shilling V, Jenkins V, Fallowfield L, Howell T.

Psychosocial Oncology Group (Cancer Research UK), Brighton and Sussex
Medical School, University of Sussex, Falmer, East Sussex, BN1 9QG,
UK. [email protected]

The use of hormonal therapies for the treatment of breast cancer is
common, yet few studies have examined the possible cognitive effects.
Several regions of the brain, important in memory and cognition, are
rich in oestrogen receptors. As a result, the long-term use of
anti-oestrogens may have potential consequences for cognition. This
project aims to establish whether significant cognitive deficit exists
in women receiving hormone therapy for breast cancer and to develop a
cognitive package that is sensitive to the potential effects of
oestrogen deficiency on cognition. Cognitive assessments measured a
range of memory and attention functions in patient and control groups
to identify whether cognitive impairment, if apparent, occurs at a
widespread or function specific level. Ninety-four patients from the
anastrozole, tamoxifen and combined (ATAC) trial and 35 non-cancer
controls were assessed. Groups did not differ significantly in age or
estimated full-scale intelligence. The patient group did not differ
from controls on measures of working memory, attention and visual
memory but was significantly impaired compared to the control group on
measures of verbal memory (P=0.026) and processing speed (P=0.032).
Cognitive performance in the patient group was not significantly
related to length of time on trial or measures of psychological
morbidity. As more and more hormonal agents are used in clinical
trials of both adjuvant and preventive settings it is of vital
importance that any potentially deleterious effects on cognitive
function are measured adequately. Preliminary results from this study
suggest that anti-oestrogen therapy may cause a specific deficit in
verbal memory that corroborates the links between oestrogen levels and
verbal memory often reported in studies of the cognitive benefits of
hormone replacement therapy.

PMID: 14623538 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[rrgg]

I'm totally not above trying it again

Actually, I was wondering if m4ohn is really right for your goals in the first place.

I've had a bad reaction and am checking to see if anyone else has too

I've read about 3 reports of lower back soreness after starting m4ohn. Whether that's a coincidence or actually due to m4ohn, that's the closest I've heard to your experience. Most people seem to report no noticeable side effects.

 

[bioman]

Interesting..might explain why my writing ability has been for **** this last week or two. I'm not retarded, it's just the Nolva.

I would say ditch all the noots and anti-e's before trialing M4OHN again and see if that makes a difference, or run it with 4ad.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

yeah, it's been months (3!) since i came off, and this acne won't go away now. and that's the last compound that could even be considered remotely androgenic that i took. i wonder who else experienced this?

I'm just guessing, but I think the PH set up the conditions for the infection, and now the infection has a foothold.

I remain steadfast in my endorsement of theanine for clearing my acne, but I have no idea if others will have the same benefit. I would wonder whether a month or two on doxycycline might cure that right up.

INFOHAZARD
Information provided here is for philosophical use
only. Not Medical Advice. Information not good after
curfew in Sectors 'R' or 'M.' Do not use information
near open flame. Always wear protective headgear
when conducting thought-experiments with
dangerous information.

 

[BigVrunga]

This is relevant, b/c if someone has been using MDMA and later has Parkinsons-like symptoms, Occam's Razor says this is the most likely cause, given what we know from animal studies and human brain scans.

I wish I were making this up, b/c MDMA is everywhere and it makes people feel good, but it's dirty ****, in my book. You're much better of taking LSD or smoking a joint.

Brodus I agree with you that MDMA abuse is bad news and has lasting consequences. However, that is the point - MDMA *abuse*. Originally, it was used as a thereputic tool in marriage counceling, and to help treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

Moreover - it is a powerful compound and it is hard on the body physically(unlike marijuana and LSD, like you mentioned) Kids who are using it every weekend as a party drug are not only abusing the drug's positive attributes, but also destroying their mind's ability to respond to them.

Once again, a case for drug education - rather than misinformation.

Lastly, how many of you know long time MDMA abusers? How sharp are they? Sharp as a broomstick? Better, if MDMA is a gateway to self-realization and long-term improvement, how come all of the bands that get heavy into it rapidly suck ass within six months? I'm speaking from objectivity and a shitload of experience here; if it worked, why don't the bands who fall down the K-and-E-hole get better? Why do their "jams" get shittier and shittier, until they sound worse than high school jazz bands.

From my experience, a band that gets *heavily* into any drug starts to regress in musical complexity and quality. Alcohol being a major one of them.

You talk about music in a lot of your posts bro - are you a musician? Its cool to meet fellow bodybuilder/musician people

BV

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Actually, I was wondering if m4ohn is really right for your goals in the first place.

Goals? What goals? I was completely abusing the stuff.


INFOHAZARD
"Those are my principles, and if
you don't like them, well- I
have others! -Groucho Marx

 

[Brodus]

Yes, I'm a musician. I play professionally four to five nights a week. On Sunday, Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins sat in with my band...my bass player is playing the after party for Van Halen in Las Vegas tonight. I'm also a music teacher. I currently play in three bands, do session work, and sit in with other projects I've played with in the past when I have free time.

My comments regarding MDMA are a combination of what is readily available in the science, what I have personally witnessed through literally hundreds of users, the application of Occams Razor in the face of a known Parkinson-symtpom-agonist, and also the deductive conclusion that if MDMA did anything but fool you into thinking you were something special for a few hours, we'd see a lot more geniuses...someone would have solved the gulf between general relativity and quantum mechanics...Just as steroids have given us 300-pound monsters, where are the mental giants courtesy of MDMA? Why isn't the divorce rate going down? Doesn't it make everyone more intimate? Why is violent crime rising? Why don't people use better English? Why has musical complexity and invention taking a nose dive? Wouldn't we see positive societal trends in the face of the widespread use/abuse of MDMA? Oh, sure, it's all bunk, that's the problem...give everyone the RIGHT drug, and we'll all be as smart as...who?

You can make all sorts of arguments for the "perfect way" to do a drug, etc., but if in reality that is rarely if ever achieved, the reasonable response for a clinician is to go with what they see as the prime societal behavior pattern. I'm not making this up...enroll in medical school, or visit one and ask them youself...and a real medical school, not some unaccredited homeopathy or spirit guide school. Or just post on a med-school forum and find out for yourself. If we always made clinical decisions based on "perfect scenarios," we'd have a hell of a lot more sick and wounded people.

Look, think for yourself. An appologist for MDMA will come up with a million justifications for why the studies are all flawed, why there is a global conspiracy against the happy pill, and why only those who embrace MDMA can know truth. But think for yourself. Try it, even. I personally think it's a **** drug, and so do most clinicians, and that's why I said what I said. If you think I'm lying or making it up, ask your doctor...or better yet, go to college and study it...That's what I did.

MDMA is totally weak compared to LSD, and its more damaging. Take it for a week and see how much smarter you get...oh, that's abuse, you say? Well you can take steroids everyday, or antidepressants everyday...Is it abuse, or is it a harmful substance? If it's as harmless as people say, why can you only "handle it" once in a blue moon? Who in hell uses it like that? Maybe 1 in 1000...which would be Dr. Drug Guru...Now he wants policy to reflect his reality, vs. reality for the other 999 people. Is that fair? Is that a reasonable assessment of MDMA use? And where is the line? This is a neurotoxin, unlike LSD and Marijuana. I don't want any of that in me.

And I hope you all see the dangers of lumping recreational drugs with steroids. If you don't, well, that's really too bad.

Infohazard passed a freshman level philosophy class, as evidenced by his reliance on attempting to find and categorize logical fallacies in my arguments. I used to do that, too, when I was a freshman in college at 17, back before I evolved. He believes the information he wants to, and I'm sure he'd say the same thing about me. We certainly won't reach agreement on this subject.

I'd be very curious to know if he's ever worked with any Olympic level coaches, and where he got his philosophy degree from, and who he studied with? My graduate advisor in Philosophy of Science WROTE THE NATIONS POSITION PAPER on genetic research and biomedical ethics. My other teacher was a pioneer in DNA research and isolation. I don't come on here to make **** up. I share my informed opinion.

I have a lot more I could say, but anything I say you will interpret as a personal attack. I couldn't tell you about myself and what I do, without you getting defensive. I hope you all think about the covert reasons behind a persons' logic. Ask yourself what I possibly have to gain from dissing MDMA, and also what I possibly have to gain from making a educated, researched assumption about M4OHN and Parkinsons. And ask yourself what makes the most sense.

 

[rrgg]

Goals? What goals? I was completely abusing the stuff.

If you had no goal, you shouldn't have used m4ohn. From reading your earlier messages, I figured your goal was a large amount of fat loss. Since that's beyond what is typically done on a cutting cycle, I suspect you probably shouldn't have done the m4ohn in the first place.

 

[John Smeton]

comeon if you dont have goals why even use this stuff let alone bodybuild naturally.

rememeber if you dont have a goal your like a ship floating in the ocean you may end up somewhere ....but if you have a destination..you know what your headed for and it will happen alot more rapily then nothing.

brodus good knowledge bro...very good...i have to tell you something...that our minds sometime get things linked up(what you learned about onething or a certain set of things does not necessary mean that this is what mohn,,,,although you have a theory,,,it could be right or wrong...but you never know untill researching ,studying ,testing in the real world is done.

p.s. yes i know all my semi colons,and,buts,so, and puncutaion and spelling is not perfect ..im in a hurry right now i dont have time to put all my ; .etc lol anyways

i love learning

 

[BigVrunga]

Look, think for yourself. An appologist for MDMA will come up with a million justifications for why the studies are all flawed, why there is a global conspiracy against the happy pill, and why only those who embrace MDMA can know truth. But think for yourself. Try it, even. I personally think it's a **** drug, and so do most clinicians, and that's why I said what I said. If you think I'm lying or making it up, ask your doctor...or better yet, go to college and study it...That's what I did.

So did I. Ive seen the good that it can do, Ive also seen the people that abused it and paid for it.

I have a lot more I could say, but anything I say you will interpret as a personal attack. I couldn't tell you about myself and what I do, without you getting defensive. I hope you all think about the covert reasons behind a persons' logic. Ask yourself what I possibly have to gain from dissing MDMA, and also what I possibly have to gain from making a educated, researched assumption about M4OHN and Parkinsons. And ask yourself what makes the most sense.

No offense taken bro. You seem like an educated guy; I'd respect your opinion. This is the prohormone section though, so I digress.

Yes, I'm a musician. I play professionally four to five nights a week. On Sunday, Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins sat in with my band...my bass player is playing the after party for Van Halen in Las Vegas tonight. I'm also a music teacher. I currently play in three bands, do session work, and sit in with other projects I've played with in the past when I have free time.

Now that is pretty cool. What's the name of your band, and what instrument(s) do you play?

BV

 

[Brodus]

Yeah Big V, I'm not saying that MDMA has no value whatsoever...I'm saying people pop it like it's candy, and it is a neuro-toxin, and if you do enough of it, your brain doesn't look healthy in a brain scan. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I seem to remember that part of the reason it was scheduled was the high potential for abuse...could be wrong, but I think I'm at least close. I don't doubt that in the perfect setting, MOST drugs can be used with relative safety, but eventually it's hard to know where that line is, even with yourself...this is speaking from experience.

I play guitar and sing....the band I perform with most reguarly b/c the work is non-stop is Liquid Courage, part of the Live Band Karaoke Chicago...you can check out our website at livebandkaraokechicago.com. As a collective we play virtually every night of of the week. I also play in Fly.Man.Tell (Invalid Link Removed), Bifunkal (Invalid Link Removed), do Summer tours with World Class Noise (Invalid Link Removed), I do jazz gigs with the Damain Williams Project, and I have a blues band, Bargain Brodus and the Truth. I'm recording in between shows with my original projects right now at Moonunit Sound, and I'm set to drop a CD in early November.

Billy came in the bar with hockey player Chris Chelios and asked if he could sit in. He first sang the Kinks "You Really Got Me," and then we played Jumpin Jack Flash, Sunshine of Your Love, Red Rooster, Brown Sugar, and then jammed a G blues. While we were in between songs, the pitcher for the Cubs (Ryan Dempster) ran out naked and grabbed the microphone and said "Come on Everybody, Let's go Streaking!" It was a night I won't forget anytime soon, and I was surprised it wasn't in the paper. We do have quite a few photos, though.

Smeton, I'm not sure I understand--can you translate your post?!

 

[John Smeton]

yeah man what i said was very simple

OUR MINDS SOMETimes GET THINGS LINKED UP WITH OUR PREVIOUS EXPIRENCES.

do you want an example?

 

[John Smeton]

lol...ok say a guy is bald .he was good with women when he had hair. since he went bald he does not have success with women anymore

he now beleives that sucess isnt possible because hes bald so he doesnt even try with women anymore.

WHEN THE REAILTY IS ITS NOT HIS BALDNESS THATS NOT CAUSING HIM TO BE UNSUCESSFUL WITH WOMEN ITS HIS ATTITUDE.

(thats an example of how his mind got baldness linked with no sucess with women)

and it can be anything

 

[rrgg]

So if he tries some hair growth treatment, is it a recreational drug?

 

[bioman]

So if he tries some hair growth treatment, is it a recreational drug?

lmao! Good timing.

I think we all acknowledge that the potential list of variables with INFO's situation is endless, the interactions of all the various supps, hormones, noots et cetera. All we can do is make educated guesses.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Come on, folks, don't you know a joke when you see one? I actually listed my goals in my early posts. Jeez.


Brodus-

Again, if you keep repeating that it is dopamine toxic, it does not make it so. I myself am agnostic about it's serotonergic toxiciity, but I am perplexed as to why you completely ignored the fact that the FDA and the DEA have approved human research with it if it's a proven neurotoxin, especially for a condition that already has FDA approved treatments.

So, you have an advanced education, eh? Go ahead, whip it out. Let's see if it'll scare the horses.

INFOHAZARD

 

[DR.D]

I would wonder whether a month or two on doxycycline might cure that right up.

Yes, I'm sure it would, but probably just two weeks would be plenty. In a previous post, you called meth '****'... Any true pre-parkinsonian would have a better opinion of amphetamine. If meth is **** to you, then dopamine is not your issue at all. As I suggested before, discourage cholinergic tone and enhance that with a selective MAOI. But now I have to think that you really must have some other disorder. If you burned out your serotonin system, then your turnover will be sluggish. Your amine levels will be variable and cyclic and little things like M4OHN may precipitate problems. An SSRI may be your best fit.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

So if he tries some hair growth treatment, is it a recreational drug?

It's all Rock & Roll to me!

No seriously- your point is actually central to very important problems in US society. The real question is, what's wrong with a recreational drug?

If you come from the Puritan tradition, you have no business regrowing your hair. As the Aussie's have noted, they are eternally grateful that the Americans got the Puritans and the Aussies got the Convicts....


But what really pisses me off the most is someone who looks down on other people for doing the same thing they do themselves. Just look at the conviction record of the biggest morality-pushing Congressmen, Senators and Cabinet Memebers.


No one is safe when Congress is in session, here in the Land of the Free...


INFOHAZARD

If 'pro-' is the opposite of 'con-' what is the opposite of "progress?"

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Yes, I'm sure it would, but probably just two weeks would be plenty. In a previous post, you called meth '****'... Any true pre-parkinsonian would have a better opinion of amphetamine. If meth is **** to you, then dopamine is not your issue at all. As I suggested before, discourage cholinergic tone and enhance that with a selective MAOI. But now I have to think that you really must have some other disorder. If you burned out your serotonin system, then your turnover will be sluggish. Your amine levels will be variable and cyclic and little things like M4OHN may precipitate problems. An SSRI may be your best fit.

Now I gotta disagree with you on some fine points, there Doctor. I appreciate the major thrust of what you say, however. It's just that Meth is a known dopamine toxin. I don't know how many guys with symptoms indistnguishable from paranoid schizophrenia get better with a few days away from meth. Animal studies suggest significant nigrostriatal toxicity from the stuff.

Heck, Ricuarte killed a couple of monkeys with it. Other amphetamines, (even substituted methamphetamines) don't carry the toxic burden of straight Meth. But then, I've never tried meth.

I'm not sure where you are getting a positive feedback loop between serotonin and nigrostriatal dopamine. In fact, I was taught that 5HT2A had a negative feedback on the nigrostriatal dopaminergic system. SSRI's are well known to cause parkinsonian symptoms in a small subset of individuals. (of course, there is that nagging connection between depression and movement disorders in general, regardless of pharmacologic treatment, so you may have a point...)

Have I ever tried and SSRI? Yep. It made me horney and I not only could go on for hours, but I had to.

Caused me an essential tremor, too... Go figure.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Yes, I'm sure it would, but probably just two weeks would be plenty.

It's different for Derm, particularly acne. Evidently, where the acne bacteria live, the penetration of antibiotic into the stratum corneum is more dependent on the rate the skin forms and slough's off than in most tissues. The time it takes can be depressing to your average teen.

INFOHAZARD

 

[DR.D]

I'm not promoting meth, but now I understand what your saying. You've never done it, so your opinion is extrapolated. It can't be that toxic if they give it to little 6 year old hyperkinetic kids to help them relax. **** bro, I've been taking Dexedrine for the last 10 years and can't talk any **** about amphetamine. It's all good, just be sensible with the doses. Just from using meth, a proven MAOI, you reduce your odds of parkinsonism over the general population. The same goes for smoking. If you smoke, you develope parkisonism 6 years later in life than a non-smoker. There are many inter-connecting factors to consider here, so be objective and start somewhere. But don't start smoking, that's not my point. Experimentation is the only true way to confirm any of this speculation.

 

[INFOHAZARD]

I'm not promoting meth, but now I understand what your saying. You've never done it, so your opinion is extrapolated. It can't be that toxic if they give it to little 6 year old hyperkinetic kids to help them relax. **** bro, I've been taking Dexedrine for the last 10 years and can't talk any **** about amphetamine. It's all good, just be sensible with the doses. Just from using meth, a proven MAOI, you reduce your odds of parkinsonism over the general population. The same goes for smoking. If you smoke, you develope parkisonism 6 years later in life than a non-smoker. There are many inter-connecting factors to consider here, so be objective and start somewhere. But don't start smoking, that's not my point. Experimentation is the only true way to confirm any of this speculation.

I gotta say, while meth is available, it's absolutely LAST-LINE in the Tx of ADHD. In the US, at least in places I've been, (the South, Ohio, NM) I've never seen a single patient on it.

Trailer park trash high on the Nazi recipe for meth is quite common here in southern GA. They typically show up to the Crisis Unit totally batshit crazy. I'm sure they are not prudent with their dosing.

Dextro- and mixed salts of plain amphetamine are an entirely different story, and you'd be amazed at the sheer number of folks who walk around their workplaces with straight amphetamine tickling their synapses. In fact, they look far more 'normal' than if they didn't have it there.


INFOHAZARD

 

[DR.D]

I gotta say, while meth is available, it's absolutely LAST-LINE in the Tx of ADHD. In the US, at least in places I've been, (the South, Ohio, NM) I've never seen a single patient on it.

Trailer park trash high on the Nazi recipe for meth is quite common here in southern GA. They typically show up to the Crisis Unit totally batshit crazy. I'm sure they are not prudent with their dosing.

Dextro- and mixed salts of plain amphetamine are an entirely different story, and you'd be amazed at the sheer number of folks who walk around their workplaces with straight amphetamine tickling their synapses. In fact, they look far more 'normal' than if they didn't have it there.


INFOHAZARD

Let me clarify. I have only seen one patient on Desoxyn. It is rare due to former, widespread abuse. But it's just the secondary amine of amphetamine and thus just a 'metabolite' of the parent compound. Meth and Dexidrine are basically qualitatively interchangable, just the half-life changes. So that's why I spoke of it as though it were one and the same. It pretty much is, that's what I meant. I've seen a huge number of kids on it for years and they show no toxicity. It would not be given to children if it were that toxic.

The trailor trash you speak of are no doubt abusive with the dose. Neglecting sleep and nutrition just makes it worse. Also bathtub batches have neurotoxic impurities most often(this may actually be the case for you if you used someone elses M4OHN other than DS's) Impurities are often to blame, not the drug itself, in these cases.

And as for the dextro, I am one of those 'normalized' folks you see walking around, so I'm not surprised. I am better and more productive. Less combative and more resilient to depression. Try it, if your fine motor coordination doesn't improve immediately, It's not for you. Little things like the clarity of your handwriting will improve if it's a good fit for you.

 

[rrgg]

As the Aussie's have noted, they are eternally grateful that the Americans got the Puritans and the Aussies got the Convicts....

Yeah, I guess Australia is leading the world in medicine, eh?

This is the weirdest thread. I've never seen someone respond to every tangent point and write so much. I thought I was bad about that...

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Let me clarify. I have only seen one patient on Desoxyn. It is rare due to former, widespread abuse. But it's just the secondary amine of amphetamine and thus just a 'metabolite' of the parent compound. Meth and Dexidrine are basically qualitatively interchangable, just the half-life changes. So that's why I spoke of it as though it were one and the same. It pretty much is, that's what I meant. I've seen a huge number of kids on it for years and they show no toxicity. It would not be given to children if it were that toxic.

The trailor trash you speak of are no doubt abusive with the dose. Neglecting sleep and nutrition just makes it worse. Also bathtub batches have neurotoxic impurities most often(this may actually be the case for you if you used someone elses M4OHN other than DS's) Impurities are often to blame, not the drug itself, in these cases.

And as for the dextro, I am one of those 'normalized' folks you see walking around, so I'm not surprised. I am better and more productive. Less combative and more resilient to depression. Try it, if your fine motor coordination doesn't improve immediately, It's not for you. Little things like the clarity of your handwriting will improve if it's a good fit for you.

Granted, I'm sure that any amphetamine toxicity is significantly a function of high dose, but my impression is that meth is the worst.

Of note, I noticed in one paper I just looked at that Meth is, in part metabolised to straight AMPH. It didn't go in to whether it goes beoth ways.

INFOHAZARD

INFOHAZARD

 

[INFOHAZARD]

Yeah, I guess Australia is leading the world in medicine, eh?

This is the weirdest thread. I've never seen someone respond to every tangent point and write so much. I thought I was bad about that...

I don't know why you're here, but I'm learning a hell of a lot. Think of it as a workout for the nootropic crowd.

INFOHAZARD