Bad Reaction to M4OHN; anyone else?

Did that feel good, jah, revealing to the board that you knew nothing that you posted about? I think asking you questions is pointless, since you can't answer them. Maybe if you start thinking in longer sentences and read a few more books, or show up for organic chem we can have a real discussion.

You don't know chemistry, you don't know pharmacology, you really don't know any basic physical science, and you obviously don't know anything that has been posted here on M4OHN.

But...You put me in my place? Is that how it works in your world, you silly little ****? That's pretty funny. I could refute this and give you a five question test that you would instantly fail, or tell you what I've been doing the past three years, while you've been perfecting your masturbation strokes, but that would be self-serving.

I gave you a chance to prove you were arguing from a point of reason and fact, and all you did was puke out the same thing you said before, but in all caps.

Off-topic? Yeah. I guess posting all of the reasons why my logic is correct, along with research backing me up is "off-topic." You never were on the debate team, were you?

And in case you didn't know, there's a huge difference between deductive logic and "guessing."

Guessing is what you do, obviously, since you don't seem to understand what a hyroxyl group is. What I did was make a deductive, rational hypothesis. (Its all part of this little thing called the scientific method, and it drives something called innovation). I even said this on my post.

This all falls on deaf ears, though, as you're intent on digging yourself a hole with your mouth that you can't crawl out of with your brain. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have posted your rationale, you would have explained the molecule, or would have talked about dopamine recpetor down regulation, instead of your pre-pubescent bitch-off.

I would re-hash my argument, the one you can't refute because it's scientifically sound, but what would that do? You don't know what makes a molecule toxic--You don't read the bloodwork--you failed to see the relevancy of the Atkins diet connection--you failed to see the relevancy of my Nolva and Usnic Acid comments, which was an assertion that people responding negatively to my post were guilty of immense bias, based on the logic used to argue other cases.

But, it's pointless, because you're still reading at an eighth grade level.

Go back to bb.com. There's a lot more litle fish you can impress there. If you hang round here much more, people might realize you fucking retarded you are.
 
Brodus, what is your new PCT strategy now that you've dropped tamox. Are you just replacing it with clomid?

I've been thinking about dropping tamox too, but I don't know that I want to deal with the clomid sides. Just curious if you found some other alternative.
 
Brodus said:
Did that feel good, jah, revealing to the board that you knew nothing that you posted about? I think asking you questions is pointless, since you can't answer them. Maybe if you start thinking in longer sentences and read a few more books, or show up for organic chem we can have a real discussion.

You don't know chemistry, you don't know pharmacology, you really don't know any basic physical science, and you obviously don't know anything that has been posted here on M4OHN.

But...You put me in my place? Is that how it works in your world, you silly little ****? That's pretty funny. I could refute this and give you a five question test that you would instantly fail, or tell you what I've been doing the past three years, while you've been perfecting your masturbation strokes, but that would be self-serving.

I gave you a chance to prove you were arguing from a point of reason and fact, and all you did was puke out the same thing you said before, but in all caps.

Off-topic? Yeah. I guess posting all of the reasons why my logic is correct, along with research backing me up is "off-topic." You never were on the debate team, were you?

And in case you didn't know, there's a huge difference between deductive logic and "guessing."

Guessing is what you do, obviously, since you don't seem to understand what a hyroxyl group is. What I did was make a deductive, rational hypothesis. (Its all part of this little thing called the scientific method, and it drives something called innovation). I even said this on my post.

This all falls on deaf ears, though, as you're intent on digging yourself a hole with your mouth that you can't crawl out of with your brain. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have posted your rationale, you would have explained the molecule, or would have talked about dopamine recpetor down regulation, instead of your pre-pubescent bitch-off.

I would re-hash my argument, the one you can't refute because it's scientifically sound, but what would that do? You don't know what makes a molecule toxic--You don't read the bloodwork--you failed to see the relevancy of the Atkins diet connection--you failed to see the relevancy of my Nolva and Usnic Acid comments, which was an assertion that people responding negatively to my post were guilty of immense bias, based on the logic used to argue other cases.

But, it's pointless, because you're still reading at an eighth grade level.

Go back to bb.com. There's a lot more litle fish you can impress there. If you hang round here much more, people might realize you fucking retarded you are.
Click to expand...
We all know your an idiot. ANYONE who reads this thread from the beginning can see that. once again ...you are stating **** thats irrelevant to the subject. Why is it that 4 people on this thread are against you? Yet ...you have been on this board for a while..I am a newbie. How come NO ONE is defending you? BECAUSE YOUR WRONG DR. BRODUS

how about you stop talking and post some pics.
lets see if your all the "expert" claim to be. I let my body and strength do the talking.

give me some of your stats...
I am 100% natural...and I am willing to bet I can bench, squat, and powerclean more than you.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP BITCH

I will put you in your place.
 
chasec said:
well, i ran it close to 40mg/QD and had no sides except this damn acne that won't go away on my shoulders.

back to the argument........
Click to expand...
Bump that...I ran it at 40mg's ed, and the acne was horrible on my right shoulder/arm and torso. Large and painful. It took about 4 weeks after for it to subside.
 
Come to think of it, I got some weird acne from 32+mg. of M4OHN, too, but I was stacking...it was more like a carbuncle, if you're familiar with that--basically like a giant "underground" zit that won't go away. Only a few, though.

Do you guys have oily skin to begin with?
 
Thats what I thought Dr. Brodus. All talk and nothing to show for it.
Where are the insults now?

YOU TALKED ALL THAT ****. NOW WHEN I CALL YOU OUT...you have nothing to say?

like I said before...I put you in your place.

I will leave it at that little Brodus.
 
ok you guys sound like little sissys fighting at the beach

enough of the bullshit ...keep on track with facts and expirences

if you want to start a thread called forum fighting go ahead but this article is on ......a bad reaction to m4ohn
 
"I am willing to bet I can bench, squat, and powerclean more than you."

Okay, and that makes you qualified to speak about what, exactly...hyroxyl groups and realtive hepatoxicity? Dosage response curves? Dopamine receptor downgrade?

Is that what you told your teacher when you failed science?

The point is, people researching here don't really care what you bench, they're concerned about the effects of certain drugs they might take. I hope you can bench more than me, I am an endurance athlete, I run triathlons and placed in national and international track meets when I was younger than you. I don't need a laurel from you to feel validated, I have a wall of medals...but I digress...

Let's not make this a pissing conest. I'm very, very comfortable in my "place," and if I told you where it was, I'd feel like I was bragging.

The offer is still open for you to redeem yourself for looking like a fool and failing to back up your statements with any logic/science. Otherwise, lets drop this. We're wasting bandwidth.
 
your an endurance athlete?

is that your way of saying your small and weak. LOL

Do endurance athletes take steroids?

EPO....yes. steroids? counter-productive

I put you in your place once again.
your all talk....nothing to show for it.
 
At sub 30 mg dosages I had no acne which is very odd as I have chronic cystic acne all the time. When I stacked it with Sledge test however the acne was absolutely horrible and left some pretty gnarly scars. It's just finally calming down 10 weeks PC. May have to run accutane with it next time as the gains were too great and pleasant to sell off either compound(I know, I know..priorities, lol)

FWIW I noticed little in the way of mental stimulation from the M4OHN but I was doing very taxing field work for most of the cycle.
 
Jah, as I said before:

"The offer is still open for you to redeem yourself for looking like a fool and failing to back up your statements with any logic/science. Otherwise, lets drop this. We're wasting bandwidth."

And please stop sending me ridiuclous PMs. You sound like a grade school bully who got called out in class and then wants to beat up the teacher.

If you don't have anything constructive or science-based to add, please stop posting.
 
Bio, re: mental stimulation, I noticed it pretty quickly. I was playing shows five nights a week and going into my day job on 5 hours of sleep, and felt fine...Which of course concurs with the idea that it is a dopamine agonist; this based on chemical structure and anecdotal reporting at this point.
 
Brodus said:
Jah, as I said before:

"The offer is still open for you to redeem yourself for looking like a fool and failing to back up your statements with any logic/science. Otherwise, lets drop this. We're wasting bandwidth."

And please stop sending me ridiuclous PMs. You sound like a grade school bully who got called out in class and then wants to beat up the teacher.

If you don't have anything constructive or science-based to add, please stop posting.
Click to expand...
I dont need to back up my statements with any science...all I said is "We dont know **** about these new steroids" which is why YOU guess dosages. WHICH IS TRUE

lets read your other posts in this thread to see how constructive or science-based it was. Where are all your insults now?

YOU were the one insulting people and calling people names. Now you want to act mature? because I called you out. Your a little bi***

and once again....do endurance athletes take steroids? LOL


I put you in your place once again brodus.

Im finished with your little punk ass. Your ALL TALK.
dont bother with the reply
btw...nice excuse for being weak "BRODUS IS AN ENDURANCE ATHLETE THAT TAKES STEROIDS" LOL
who is stupid enough to take advice about steroids from a SMALL..WEAK..endurance athlete like you Brodus. you ruined your image
DONT RESPOND. I made my point along time ago. I just let everyone know that you a little b**ch
 
Um, once again, L-theanine really helps my acne at 200mg three to four times daily. This might be why:
Invalid Link Removed
 
foo.c said:
You know, for a flame war, this is actually an interesting thread. :)
Click to expand...

I agree.


One thing worth mentioning regarding my own experience thus far with M4OHN:

I've been using bromocriptine for the last 6 months straight at 5mg. After starting M4OHN my stuffed up and chronically running nose is as clear as a whistle. No congestion at all.

I don't really understand this stuff very well, but could this mean M4OHN is rendering the bromo useless?

Is there anybody here that could explain how this works, if it is indeed rendering the bromo useless?

Thanks.
 
Brodus said:
I want to appologize for the personal attacks on Info, there isn't a need for that, I got carried away, and they don't serve much of a pupose other than to elicit laugther, so sorry InfoHazard.

You're position has softened as well, I see, which is logical in the face of all the possible contributing factors.

But...I stand by my assessment of the situation.
Click to expand...
I'll give him a pass, maybe he was just exhibiting other odd adverse effects from M4OHN?

BTW, awesome research post Brodus.

In all seriousness however, since we skipped PK, Tox, Phase I, II, & III clinical studies for M40HN and jumped to post-marketing research, there may be some interesting findings from studying us lab rats.
 
Squeak squeak!

Probably the only reason I didn't lock down the thread is because of the body of info that somehow makes it in between the pissing contests.

Let's keep exchanging ideas, experiences and info and leave the insults and egos for another time and place.
 
I wanna know how much 6-oxo InfoHazard was taking. I'd be willing to bet that lack of Estrogen is the culprit. For anybody that has taken more than 2mg of Letro in one dose, how do your muscles feel? Stiff, grinding, ect.

When my estrogen gets low all of my muscles feel the way he described. Delts/rotator cuff is the worst, but it's felt everywhere.
 
rhinochaser48 said:
I agree.


One thing worth mentioning regarding my own experience thus far with M4OHN:

I've been using bromocriptine for the last 6 months straight at 5mg. After starting M4OHN my stuffed up and chronically running nose is as clear as a whistle. No congestion at all.

I don't really understand this stuff very well, but could this mean M4OHN is rendering the bromo useless?

Is there anybody here that could explain how this works, if it is indeed rendering the bromo useless?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
super7orange said:
I started using bromo recently and had been/have been using M4OHN at 20mg per day. I have to take 10mg+ doses of bromo to see any sides. So this may have some relevance. I think I may lay off the M4OHN for a bit. And see if lower bromo doses start working.
Click to expand...
I posted this on page one. There is definately and issue there. I went off the M4OHN Sunday and the 5mg dose of Bromo is starting to actually work.
 
supersoldier said:
I wanna know how much 6-oxo InfoHazard was taking. I'd be willing to bet that lack of Estrogen is the culprit. For anybody that has taken more than 2mg of Letro in one dose, how do your muscles feel? Stiff, grinding, ect.

When my estrogen gets low all of my muscles feel the way he described. Delts/rotator cuff is the worst, but it's felt everywhere.
Click to expand...
How's your gait? do you tend to shuffle slowly?

I had never used more than 100mg a day 6-OXO, and it had really puzzled me as to why a "suicide" inhibitor of aromatase should require so much drug. Then I read on some board that they didn't think it had more than 1-2% bioavailability taken orally.

So I developed a primitive homebrew transdermal system that I used on my skin and sublingually. That was right before the cogwheeling started.... Mind you M4OHN was on board the whole time.

Say, had this been known information on low estrogen and low dopamine?

Gotta watch it, or my evil arch nemesis, Dr. Brodus :twisted: will claim he came up with it and steal the glory! (That is a joke...)

INFOHAZARD
 
SO have we conclusively arrived at the theory that it wasn't M4OHN that caused the symptoms in InfoHazard?

It'd be nice to know, since I have some arriving tommorrow (need to drop this testabolin).

Thanks
 
I'd say it's your call....review the last three pages and decide. But maybe also read the extensive cycle reports available here (none of which mention this symptom), take into account age-realted dopamine drop and sub-sub-prime physical condition, add into it the effects of long-term carb depletion, compound with an estrogen inhibitor and lipophylic nootropics, and compare the chemical structure to known chemicals, and I think the answer is pretty clear.

If you feel there is a risk of "cogwheeling" and pre-Parkinsons conditions from M4OHN in a healthy male subject taking no additional drugs, then you can always post the pills on the Swap Meet.
 
ahoym8e said:
SO have we conclusively arrived at the theory that it wasn't M4OHN that caused the symptoms in InfoHazard?
Click to expand...


No.

What we can say is that InfoHazard's case may either be situational (by way of genetics OR drug interaction), a pre-existing condition, or a false diagnosis of his problem, but anything is still possible at this point. No one has offered an explanation as to why the bromocriptine side effects disapear while using M4OHN.

I don't know what to believe.

InfoHazard: Did you notice any water retention while using M4OHN? Perhaps before using the 6-OXO?
 
Are you proposing that the bromo-sides are in realtion to its stimulation of type-1 dopamine receptors?

"Leg cramps, metallic taste, rash, urticaria, tinnitus, blurred vision, myopia, ocular irritation, facial pallor, impotence, priapism (painful clitoral tumescence), nasal congestion, and xerostomia have been reported during therapy with bromocriptine. "

As for why this occurs...I would be inclined to think it has more to do with the estrogen and prolactin effects of bromo.

To be honest, though, I don't think I would take bromo with anything that has an effect on the CNS, after reading more about it. It's some pretty powerful shiaat.
 
Brodus said:
I'd say it's your call....review the last three pages and decide. But maybe also read the extensive cycle reports available here (none of which mention this symptom), take into account age-realted dopamine drop and sub-sub-prime physical condition, add into it the effects of long-term carb depletion, compound with an estrogen inhibitor and lipophylic nootropics, and compare the chemical structure to known chemicals, and I think the answer is pretty clear.
Click to expand...


Brodus-

You might be completely right, but I think your theory is still a shot in the dark. Here is why:

1). I don't know how significant the dopamine drop could be, or how significant it could be on an individual basis. Just like any thing else in the human body, the 'norm' level is much different from person to person, and an age related decline comes at a different time for everybody.

I'm sure we have some older members on this board that have used M4OHN without the same side effects as InfoHazard.

2). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I highly doubt a low dose androgen would have any more negative effects on a physically fit person as they would an overweight, sedentary person.

3). I see the keto diet as irrelevant. Some people do well on them. I for one do not. I went over a year doing variations of the CKD and never ever got used to it. So again, I'm not really arguing this point, just stating I think it's irrelevant.

And since Kevin of Lyle's board mentioned that dopamine levels shouldn't be a problem if he was well fed/nourished, I recognize this as a variable, but not set in stone.

4). As supersoldier stated, his problem might not be cogwheeling at all, but could be a lack estrogen leading to very dry joints and muscles. 6-OXO might very well be a variable here as well.

5). Nootropics could also be a source of problems, but based on the experiences of the boys over at Avant, I tend to doubt this as well. Those guys have gone nootropic crazy and don't seem to have any problems with the legal androgens available today.

I'm not an expert on nootropics though, and I'll admit, I don't use them for that very reason. I think the brain is far too complicated to be tweaking like a mechanic would a hot rod. My existence is just fine as it is.

I understand certain disasterous outcomes are possible with drugs that effect the mind, hence my concern over this topic. I'm not ruling out the nootropic scenario either because it's a complicated topic all on it's own, but I do think if the nootropics are involved in developing pre-parkinsons, it must be a very situational case.
 
Brodus said:
Are you proposing that the bromo-sides are in realtion to its stimulation of type-1 dopamine receptors?
Click to expand...

I don't know, that's why I'm asking. All I can say is that my bromo sides have disapeared.



"Leg cramps, metallic taste, rash, urticaria, tinnitus, blurred vision, myopia, ocular irritation, facial pallor, impotence, priapism (painful clitoral tumescence), nasal congestion, and xerostomia have been reported during therapy with bromocriptine. "

As for why this occurs...I would be inclined to think it has more to do with the estrogen and prolactin effects of bromo.
Click to expand...

Could be, but that doesn't sound right regarding my own experience. My last cycle, a very dry cutting cycle, (M5AA, M-Dien, formestane, and nolva), left me with the same sides. My nose was stuffed all the time.


To be honest, though, I don't think I would take bromo with anything that has an effect on the CNS, after reading more about it. It's some pretty powerful shiaat.
Click to expand...

Why is that? I've always used something for a boost, whether it's an androgen or EC or clen. I've never had any problems.
 
Rhino,
Thank you for responding with real points. Here's why I don't think it is a shot in the dark, though:

1. We most certainly know that dopamine drops anywhere from 7-13% per decade. I'm not going to pull studies, this is known. We can estimate a ballpark drop with relative accuracy. My argument is that his dopamine may already be compromised; this is compounded by the fact that in self-diagnosis he has sought out nootropics that puportedly boost Dopamine. I find this significant.
And I agree, older people on this board have used the M4OHN and not had the same effects, which is part of my argument.

2. Androgen use in non-physically fit subjects is unproductive, naive, and a waste of money, in my opinion. I concede that I don't have any studies to prove that there are more negative effects that positives, when the subject is in sub-prime condition. But I think we all agree that when studies are posted on the "negative effects" of steroids, and none of the subjects are prime candidates, i.e. athletes, etc., we feel slighted. There have been many, many posts to this extent. So, by logical extension, I don't place a lot of validity in this report, b/c it does not at all reflect the typical user base.

3. The keto diet is completely relevant on two levels: 1. It significantly compromises your neurotransmitters; 2. It increases circulating Urea, which has a host of negative effects. I don't really care what Kevin (Lyle's UKD 2.0 guy, right?) posted; Go ask ANY competetive athlete if they "low-carb." The only exception is BBers who radically deplete before competition, and then many pass out and generally feel like total **** for four weeks. It is not a way of living. I posted 220+ reports on the negative effects of these diets, I worked for a pioneer in exercise science and nutrition who studied them, and if you don't believe these sources, you can also check with every major health/sporting organization in America; none of them give the low-carb diet a thumbs-up, and they're not part of a conspiracy to make you fat.

4. Of course the 6-OXO was contributing. I posted that a ways up. I said anyone with experience running "dry" and "wet" compounds knows that the reduction in estrogen tends to increase joint pain. This only serves to strenghten my argument that there are other things involved besides M4OHN causing these un-verfiied symptoms (you have to remember, this is all anecdotal, he never went to a doctor, never had blood tests, etc..)

5. Nootropics on their own probably wouldn't cause these symptoms in a healthy subject. But I've had a lot of strange symptoms from mixing different nootropics, and further, the first thing an MD would ask you is "what else are you taking;" and when you respond "I'm taking substances that interfere/modulate my dompamine receptor sensitivity, etc.," the red light goes on and you start looking for contraindictions.

Two other points>

Contamination may be a real issue here-->which again would also be something other than M4OHN causing these effects. This is the first report we have of the Smi2le.biz M4OHN, and it could very well be crappy.

I have a gut feeling, based on the OP's feelings towards a recreational drug guru, that other things are in the mix here, which most certainly DO precipitate Pre-Parkinsons conditions.

3.
 
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I don't have time to comment on bromo right now. I need to finish my day-job work, and then I'll read a few more studies I just pulled. Bromo is an ergot-derivative, synthesized in a similar way to LSD, and is a major agonist of type-1 dopamine receptors, and apparently an antagonist of type-2 recptors (vs. Peroglide). I need to figure a couple things out. Oh, and I just read in the medical literature that Drs. are supposed to advise patients against CNS stims and Bromo...I can post the whole list for you later.
 
Brodus said:
What do you take the bromo for?
Click to expand...

I take it for it's recomp effects.

It keeps me leaner during a bulk AND it let's me diet easier and maintain sub 10% bodyfat without problems. My natural set point is around 12%.

I like it's hunger blunting effects as well. My hunger is ravenous, and I'd eat everything if it wasn't for the bromo. With bromo during a bulk I can actually eat clean and be satisfied.
 
Brodus said:
3. The keto diet is completely relevant on two levels: 1. It significantly compromises your neurotransmitters; 2. It increases circulating Urea, which has a host of negative effects. I don't really care what Kevin (Lyle's UKD 2.0 guy, right?) posted; Go ask ANY competetive athlete if they "low-carb." The only exception is BBers who radically deplete before competition, and then many pass out and generally feel like total **** for four weeks. It is not a way of living. I posted 220+ reports on the negative effects of these diets, I worked for a pioneer in exercise science and nutrition who studied them, and if you don't believe these sources, you can also check with every major health/sporting organization in America; none of them give the low-carb diet a thumbs-up, and they're not part of a conspiracy to make you fat.
Click to expand...


I think you misunderstood my argument. I agree with you, as did Kevin making the original comment about being well fed and nourished.


Thanks for the responses though. I appreciate your time and input.
 
ahoym8e said:
SO have we conclusively arrived at the theory that it wasn't M4OHN that caused the symptoms in InfoHazard?

It'd be nice to know, since I have some arriving tommorrow (need to drop this testabolin).

Thanks
Click to expand...
On retrospect, I think it was the combo of M4OHN and 6-OXO depleting the estrogen in my substantia nigra. Some folks have described M4OHN possibly blocking the action of dopaminergic agents.

In the end, there's something there with the M4OHN, but to the degree it causes problems at all, my symptoms were by far the worst. A lot of drugs can cause a given side-effect in a reletively low percentage of the population, or only in combination with other drugs.

If you start tightening up, I'd recommend backing off. If it were me reading the post, I'd probably try it, and just avoid strong aromatase inhibitors with it.

But that's just my opinion.


INFOHAZARD
Information provided is for philosophical use
only. Always use information in a well ventilated
area and wear protective headgear when conducting
dangerous thought-experiments. Not Medical Advice.
Information not good after curfew in Sectors 'R' or 'M.'
 
rhinochaser48 said:
4). As supersoldier stated, his problem might not be cogwheeling at all, but could be a lack estrogen leading to very dry joints and muscles. 6-OXO might very well be a variable here as well.

5). Nootropics could also be a source of problems, but based on the experiences of the boys over at Avant, I tend to doubt this as well. Those guys have gone nootropic crazy and don't seem to have any problems with the legal androgens available today.
Click to expand...

I think your systhesis is right on. I am, however, going to let you in on the fact that I've felt a thousand cogwheels, a thousand gegenhaltens, and a couple of dozen lead-pipe rigidities. I know what crepitus feels like.

My joints are fine. It's the belly of my biceps or quads where it was most noticable. It was cogwheeling. Scouts honor.
 
rhinochaser48 said:
5). Nootropics could also be a source of problems, but based on the experiences of the boys over at Avant, I tend to doubt this as well. Those guys have gone nootropic crazy and don't seem to have any problems with the legal androgens available today.

I'm not an expert on nootropics though, and I'll admit, I don't use them for that very reason. I think the brain is far too complicated to be tweaking like a mechanic would a hot rod. My existence is just fine as it is.

I understand certain disasterous outcomes are possible with drugs that effect the mind, hence my concern over this topic. I'm not ruling out the nootropic scenario either because it's a complicated topic all on it's own, but I do think if the nootropics are involved in developing pre-parkinsons, it must be a very situational case.
Click to expand...
Anabolicminds vs. Nootropicheads:
Invalid Link Removed
 
rhinochaser48 said:
I've been using bromocriptine for the last 6 months straight at 5mg.
Click to expand...

Be careful using bromo like this. I stongly advise against using it for long periods like this for body comp. purposes. I've seen pituitary glands poisoned like that. Your LH response is blunted for sure.
 
DR.D said:
Be careful using bromo like this. I stongly advise against using it for long periods like this for body comp. purposes. I've seen pituitary glands poisoned like that. Your LH response is blunted for sure.
Click to expand...

I thought it's been well documented that bromocriptine was safe in this regard. My supply is about to run out anyways, maybe I'll wait before restocking and take some time off,
 
rhinochaser48 said:
Brodus-

You might be completely right, but I think your theory is still a shot in the dark. Here is why:

1). I don't know how significant the dopamine drop could be, or how significant it could be on an individual basis. Just like any thing else in the human body, the 'norm' level is much different from person to person, and an age related decline comes at a different time for everybody.

I'm sure we have some older members on this board that have used M4OHN without the same side effects as InfoHazard.

2). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I highly doubt a low dose androgen would have any more negative effects on a physically fit person as they would an overweight, sedentary person.

3). I see the keto diet as irrelevant. Some people do well on them. I for one do not. I went over a year doing variations of the CKD and never ever got used to it. So again, I'm not really arguing this point, just stating I think it's irrelevant.

And since Kevin of Lyle's board mentioned that dopamine levels shouldn't be a problem if he was well fed/nourished, I recognize this as a variable, but not set in stone.

4). As supersoldier stated, his problem might not be cogwheeling at all, but could be a lack estrogen leading to very dry joints and muscles. 6-OXO might very well be a variable here as well.

5). Nootropics could also be a source of problems, but based on the experiences of the boys over at Avant, I tend to doubt this as well. Those guys have gone nootropic crazy and don't seem to have any problems with the legal androgens available today.

I'm not an expert on nootropics though, and I'll admit, I don't use them for that very reason. I think the brain is far too complicated to be tweaking like a mechanic would a hot rod. My existence is just fine as it is.

I understand certain disasterous outcomes are possible with drugs that effect the mind, hence my concern over this topic. I'm not ruling out the nootropic scenario either because it's a complicated topic all on it's own, but I do think if the nootropics are involved in developing pre-parkinsons, it must be a very situational case.
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One must be careful about subtle biases that happen when one compares someone else's culture to one's own.

Anyone who thinks anabolics do not have profound central action is naive. Based on a few days of use, and noting the remarkable stimulant action and confidence-enhancing properties , I made the argument on rec.drugs.smart that it was, in fact, a nootropic.

I've just seen too many pot-heads that won't use an aspirin "because it's not natural," and too many soccer moms who take a xanax to get them through the day who crucify their kids for smoking weed.

I like my nootropics and I have dabbled with anabolics through the years because I like the effects they provide. I am NOT a habitual user of illegal drugs, largely because I have too much to lose socially, but I did grow up in the 1970's. I did make it through 12 years of military piss tests, and am subject to them now. But the piss tests in civilian life are evil and they will never control my freedom of thought or my politics.




<>All of these things, and all the drugs that I prescribe, have benefits and side-effects.

I am responsible for my choices, and I takes my lumps when I make a bad choice.

I just think it's really hypocritical to think that taking anabolics is somehow above the drugs that another culture cares to use. They are all useful and they are all dangerous, and I'm damn glad they are available.

What I can say is I've been reading posts on other anabolic boards where people are having pretty serious things happen to them like pulmonary emboli. I don't see posts like that on the nootropic boards.

I don't mean to imply that anabolics are any more dangerous than anything else, but the bias on this board is there.

I won't even discuss details with brodus because he made it very clear to me that he is hostile to my age and lifestyle, and especially the message that one of his favorite recreational drugs might have a side-effect. He has an axe to grind- that the problem cannot possibly be his precious methylated steroid.

His mind is obviously thoroughly affected by the drug on a lot of different levels. It had much the same effect on me, and frankly I miss it. I miss a lot of other things, too.

I have no desire to tell anyone what you can use or what you must stay away from. I'm just offering a data point.

Brodus is pretty smart, but what he doesn't know, he makes up for in bullshit and apeshit. He assumes a lot about INFOHAZARD, and, as the saying goes, by assuming, "makes and ass of you and me."

Brodus, you don't know what a friend is. I've tried hard to be honest with you and tell it like it is, and you just use anything I say against me. I bet you do that a lot. Don't be surprised to find that people are always lying to you. You have a lot of growing up to do. I hope you can meet that challenge. In the end, you too are made of flesh, shall grow decrepit and shall die.

INFOHAZARD
"If I swallowed anything evil, would you
stick your finger down my throat?" -The Who
 
OH MY GOD!

I was just looking at the package the M4OHN came in, and on the back it had this label on it. What does that mean?

Invalid Link Removed
 
INFOHAZARD
One must be careful about subtle biases that happen when one compares someone else's culture to one's own.

Anyone who thinks anabolics do not have profound central action is naive. Based on a few days of use, and noting the remarkable stimulant action and confidence-enhancing properties , I made the argument on rec.drugs.smart that it was, in fact, a nootropic.

I've just seen too many pot-heads that won't use an aspirin "because it's not natural," and too many soccer moms who take a xanax to get them through the day who crucify their kids for smoking weed.

I like my nootropics and I have dabbled with anabolics through the years because I like the effects they provide. I am NOT a habitual user of illegal drugs, largely because I have too much to lose socially, but I did grow up in the 1970's. I did make it through 12 years of military piss tests, and am subject to them now. But the piss tests in civilian life are evil and they will never control my freedom of thought or my politics.




<>All of these things, and all the drugs that I prescribe, have benefits and side-effects.

I am responsible for my choices, and I takes my lumps when I make a bad choice.

I just think it's really hypocritical to think that taking anabolics is somehow above the drugs that another culture cares to use. They are all useful and they are all dangerous, and I'm damn glad they are available.

What I can say is I've been reading posts on other anabolic boards where people are having pretty serious things happen to them like pulmonary emboli. I don't see posts like that on the nootropic boards.

I don't mean to imply that anabolics are any more dangerous than anything else, but the bias on this board is there.

I won't even discuss details with brodus because he made it very clear to me that he is hostile to my age and lifestyle, and especially the message that one of his favorite recreational drugs might have a side-effect. He has an axe to grind- that the problem cannot possibly be his precious methylated steroid.

His mind is obviously thoroughly affected by the drug on a lot of different levels. It had much the same effect on me, and frankly I miss it. I miss a lot of other things, too.

I have no desire to tell anyone what you can use or what you must stay away from. I'm just offering a data point.

Brodus is pretty smart, but what he doesn't know, he makes up for in bullshit and apeshit. He assumes a lot about INFOHAZARD, and, as the saying goes, by assuming, "makes and ass of you and me."

Brodus, you don't know what a friend is. I've tried hard to be honest with you and tell it like it is, and you just use anything I say against me. I bet you do that a lot. Don't be surprised to find that people are always lying to you. You have a lot of growing up to do. I hope you can meet that challenge. In the end, you too are made of flesh, shall grow decrepit and shall die.

INFOHAZARD
"If I swallowed anything evil, would you
stick your finger down my throat?" -The Who
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:goodpost:

lets not forgot that Brodus is an endurance athlete(small and weak) that likes to give advice on steroids/ph.
 
ahoym8e said:
INFO:

So have you recovered fully?

Thanks.
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You know, I took a little more 6-Oxo a couple of days ago just to prove to myself what was going on. The cogwheeling got a bit worse- from barely at all to noticable.

Since then, I been taking sdome DHEA (estrogen fodder) it has been going away again and as of tonight, NOTHING AT ALL!

I consider it pharmacological , not toxicological, and you don't know how happy that makes me.

Based on my mild symptoms, I wouldn't wish parkinsonian symptoms on my worst enemy. For a day or two, even though I could make myself move normally, it was a serious drag. I had to make myself move normally. I see why Michael J. Fox doesn't mind being seen with a serious case of the wiggles from his antiparkinsonian drugs. At least he could move.
 
I havent read the entire thread, so if this was brought up already I am sorry for repeating it, but the muscle tightness you have felt could have been from lowered E levels. 6-oxo would create the same problem, by boosting T you would have less E in the system to lubricate the joints. dhea would make it feel better because of the excess conversion to E.
 
INFOHAZARD said:
I wouldn't wish parkinsonian symptoms on my worst enemy.
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You really sound like there is an underlying issue that needs to be adressed. The low estro may have precipitated it, but it's already there and just going to get worse. I suggest a combo like l-depryl/orphenedrine (as long as your nor already shakey) to rule out the dopaminergic system. Then, you could test your serotonergic paths.
 
TheUsual said:
Damn, give it up.
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I agree, Brodus tried to apologize, now let it go so we can get back to sharing useful infomation.

Like now I discovered in high school that you could 'freebase' test prop before a workout and really do well on your lift max. OK, maybe that's not pertinent, but I though I would turn all you hippy stoners onto that little trick! :thumbsup: Anywho... :run:
 
INFOHAZARD said:
You know, I took a little more 6-Oxo a couple of days ago just to prove to myself what was going on. The cogwheeling got a bit worse- fòom barely at all to noticable.

Since then, I been taking sdome DHEA (estrogen fodder) it has been going away again and as of tonight, NOTHING AT ALL!

.......
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you took 6oxo for but any aromatase inhibitor is normally only taken with an aromatising AAS or ph like 4ad or more normally as pct.
 
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