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Bad Reaction to M4OHN; anyone else?

INFOHAZARD

Member
I discovered one very uncool action from M4OHN that has not been heretofore reported AFAIK.


I been taking it on and off (a trial run than a longer cycle) for about 6 weeks. Very reasonable doses, maxing out at 8mg daily. Nice bulking, nice stimulant lift and increased social confidence. Some nausea, a short-lived "thyroid stare" and reduced apetite but not enough to keep me from appreciating the aspects I liked.

Just one problem. at 8mg a day for a couple of weeks I started feeling muscular achiness and "tightness." Then people started commenting on how slowly I was walking. (If they are commenting, it must have been pretty obvious. I was largely oblivious, blaming my tightness on the low barometric pressure from the tropical storms in the area.)

Then came the cogwheel rigidity- "Tick-tick-tick-tick" every time I'd move my arms or legs. This was NOT funny; I was doing the thorazine-shuffle.

Best-case scenario: M4OHN blocks dopamine receptors, or maybe depletes dopamine in the synapses of the substantia nigra without permanent damage.
Worst-case scenario: M4OHN or an MPTP-like contaminant in the product (I'm using the cheapest I can find on the web...) has wiped out my substantial nigra, leaving me with Parkinson's disease...

All I can say is it's been 5 days since I went off it and the symptoms are slowly going away. It's very very subtle now, and in fact, I feel a little more stimulated again like when I first took the steroid. Workouts are a lot easier and pleasant than they were a week ago. I am now very optimistic that this problem is a pharmacologic action and not a toxic action. (If it's toxic, I'm screwed.)

The M4OHN itself? A contaminant? A reaction with the nootropics that I been taking for months to years? I don't know; I don't want to find out and I wouldn't recommend this particular one to my worst enemy. Your Mileage May Vary.

Anyone else had a response like this to M4OHN?
 
INFOHAZARD said:
I discovered one very uncool action from M4OHN that has not been heretofore reported AFAIK.


I been taking it on and off (a trial run than a longer cycle) for about 6 weeks. Very reasonable doses, maxing out at 8mg daily. Nice bulking, nice stimulant lift and increased social confidence. Some nausea, a short-lived "thyroid stare" and reduced apetite but not enough to keep me from appreciating the aspects I liked.

Just one problem. at 8mg a day for a couple of weeks I started feeling muscular achiness and "tightness." Then people started commenting on how slowly I was walking. (If they are commenting, it must have been pretty obvious. I was largely oblivious, blaming my tightness on the low barometric pressure from the tropical storms in the area.)

Then came the cogwheel rigidity- "Tick-tick-tick-tick" every time I'd move my arms or legs. This was NOT funny; I was doing the thorazine-shuffle.

Best-case scenario: M4OHN blocks dopamine receptors, or maybe depletes dopamine in the synapses of the substantia nigra without permanent damage.
Worst-case scenario: M4OHN or an MPTP-like contaminant in the product (I'm using the cheapest I can find on the web...) has wiped out my substantial nigra, leaving me with Parkinson's disease...

All I can say is it's been 5 days since I went off it and the symptoms are slowly going away. It's very very subtle now, and in fact, I feel a little more stimulated again like when I first took the steroid. Workouts are a lot easier and pleasant than they were a week ago. I am now very optimistic that this problem is a pharmacologic action and not a toxic action. (If it's toxic, I'm screwed.)

The M4OHN itself? A contaminant? A reaction with the nootropics that I been taking for months to years? I don't know; I don't want to find out and I wouldn't recommend this particular one to my worst enemy. Your Mileage May Vary.

Anyone else had a response like this to M4OHN?
Click to expand...
I started using bromo recently and had been/have been using M4OHN at 20mg per day. I have to take 10mg+ doses of bromo to see any sides. So this may have some relevance. I think I may lay off the M4OHN for a bit. And see if lower bromo doses start working.
 
Hell no, never noticed it, I've run two real cycles at real dosages, i.e. 32mg/day. This has been by far the mildest and best overall PH I have done. This report is an anomaly.
 
His handle is "INFOHAZARD" and this is his only post :think: :icon_lol:

*I'm just spouting out bullshit, I don't mean to offend anyone.* :)
 
Sorry about your experience. Never know what might result, or from what substance or combo. Post again if you gain any insight. Alot of us have used M4OHN without incident, so this is truly the first bad report I've heard (besides all those who claim it doesn't work at all). I gained and felt like a king on M4OHN. It's the M1T weeks that made me feel like I had a chronic condition and made me want to kill myself!!!
 
-Just one problem. at 8mg a day for a couple of weeks I started feeling muscular achiness and "tightness." Then people started commenting on how slowly I was walking. (If they are commenting, it must have been pretty obvious. I was largely oblivious, blaming my tightness on the low barometric pressure from the tropical storms in the area.)

i am very confused by your post. This stiffness is actually something i felt myself, i recall feeling the need to stretch my whole body a few times a day. the feeling was quite strange, though i never cramped up, it felt as if I often would.

-Then came the cogwheel rigidity- "Tick-tick-tick-tick" every time I'd move my arms or legs. This was NOT funny; I was doing the thorazine-shuffle.

I assume this noise was from lack of synovial fluid or something similar...no idea what your theory is...

-Best-case scenario: M4OHN blocks dopamine receptors, or maybe depletes dopamine in the synapses of the substantia nigra without permanent damage.
Worst-case scenario: M4OHN or an MPTP-like contaminant in the product (I'm using the cheapest I can find on the web...) has wiped out my substantial nigra, leaving me with Parkinson's disease...

Okay, now you are talking about Neurology and dopamine levels. where is the connection here betwen Dopamine levels? ( i understand these effect mood, happines along with seratonine) and stiffness???
Please explain the function of the substantia nigra, i am not familar with this as i would presume most aren't.

-All I can say is it's been 5 days since I went off it and the symptoms are slowly going away. It's very very subtle now, and in fact, I feel a little more stimulated again like when I first took the steroid. Workouts are a lot easier and pleasant than they were a week ago. I am now very optimistic that this problem is a pharmacologic action and not a toxic action. (If it's toxic, I'm screwed.)

Again you first mentioned a stimulant type effect but apart from that how does the stiffness realte to your cogniotiver state and possible damage.
i am not beingf critical here, as i realise this undoubtably comes from my lack of knowledge, but your post makes it very hard to understand how these things link together...
 
I asked someone who knows this areA well. Here's what he had to say:

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I don't know much if anything about anabolic pro-hormones or steroids. However, the side effect of cog-wheel rigidity, if that is in fact what he had, is very very characteristic of Parkinsonian symptoms. The depletion of dopamine as he states is hard to subscribe to because even dopamine button expungers, if you will, like the ADHD drugs don't interminally deplete the pool to the point where you would start to even get transitional Parkinson's. As well, I take it this guy was well fed and thus nutritionally should have had the staples to keep his bodies hormones, neurotransmitters etc...replenishing. Thus I think a dopamine depletion theory is most likely out.

Now, the second thing to think of is that all dopaminergic drugs have an inverted U shaped curve. I am routinely astonished that people report "tolerance" to dopaminergic drugs like amphetamines and agonists. They're is very little tolerance if dosage is controlled. This has been shown in countless studies in humans with amphetamines. The dosage, despite half life, can build up on each other due to increased intake usually from the users or prescribing physicians misunderstanding. So what really, IMOH, happens is that the pro-dopamine drugs can easily be tipped over to the descending arm of the curve and at this point you will start to get rapid receptor internalization and *almost* opposite effects. Dysphoria instead of euphoria with amphetamines, stall or reversal in body comp instead of progress with drugs like bromocriptine. However, I will also rule the possibility of too much dopaminergic stimulation by this crap he was taking as, again, you would not get cogwheel rigidity from heading towards the undesireable end of the dopamine curve.

Continuing now, what if the substance actually began to act like a dopamin antagonist? The rebound stimulation and good feeling he says he is having since d/c the drug, would lend credence to this theory. Now whereas too much dopamine agonist can decrease receptor availability the opposite happens at an even greater (much greater) rate when an antagonist is introduced. Thus as receptors increase you need more and more anti-psychotic to cover the new bases. Now this unfortunate occurence is more likely to cause Parkinsonian symptoms especially tardive dyskensia but again, to my knowledge, cogwheel rigidity is not very likely.

Therefore, I think this situation is of concern. The specific symptoms he presented are mapped rather well to the substantia nigra. Maybe the drug or whatever it was, caused some local toxicity. However, it sounds like he is in remission at this stage so the damage was probably not permanent. Could it be though if he had kept using it or elevated dosage? Possibly. I sure would not tempt fate with the symptoms he presented.

Again, I don't know anything about this specific substance so I am just trying to deduce the risk from what was presented. I could very well be wrong.
Click to expand...
 
hey supersoldier, i remember you saying you used the ohn only once daily pre workout. i'm now wondering if that might be the way to go. the ONLY real effect i'm seeing is the pre workout "boost". the workouts have all gone well, but after a month at it, that's all that i've seen. waist size has increased at my same 2.7kcals/day. i've gained like an 1/8" in my arms & thighs. not real impressed EXCEPT for the training sessions that seem enhanced. just a thought...
 
When I took it...it was so weird, I went back home to my laboratory and suddenly started grunting and growing hair all over my body...I don't remember what I did that night but I hope it never happens again...
 
it works pretty good with m1t to combat the lethargy and shitty moods m1t seems to causes. but i don't know if it's worth the extra two weeks you gotta take it before it kicks in. oh well... another over hyped ph. what's new?
 
hopkins said:
-Just one problem. at 8mg a day for a couple of weeks I started feeling muscular achiness and "tightness." Then people started commenting on how slowly I was walking. (If they are commenting, it must have been pretty obvious. I was largely oblivious, blaming my tightness on the low barometric pressure from the tropical storms in the area.)

i am very confused by your post. This stiffness is actually something i felt myself, i recall feeling the need to stretch my whole body a few times a day. the feeling was quite strange, though i never cramped up, it felt as if I often would.

-Then came the cogwheel rigidity- "Tick-tick-tick-tick" every time I'd move my arms or legs. This was NOT funny; I was doing the thorazine-shuffle.

I assume this noise was from lack of synovial fluid or something similar...no idea what your theory is...

-Best-case scenario: M4OHN blocks dopamine receptors, or maybe depletes dopamine in the synapses of the substantia nigra without permanent damage.
Worst-case scenario: M4OHN or an MPTP-like contaminant in the product (I'm using the cheapest I can find on the web...) has wiped out my substantial nigra, leaving me with Parkinson's disease...

Okay, now you are talking about Neurology and dopamine levels. where is the connection here betwen Dopamine levels? ( i understand these effect mood, happines along with seratonine) and stiffness???
Please explain the function of the substantia nigra, i am not familar with this as i would presume most aren't.

-All I can say is it's been 5 days since I went off it and the symptoms are slowly going away. It's very very subtle now, and in fact, I feel a little more stimulated again like when I first took the steroid. Workouts are a lot easier and pleasant than they were a week ago. I am now very optimistic that this problem is a pharmacologic action and not a toxic action. (If it's toxic, I'm screwed.)

Again you first mentioned a stimulant type effect but apart from that how does the stiffness realte to your cogniotiver state and possible damage.
i am not beingf critical here, as i realise this undoubtably comes from my lack of knowledge, but your post makes it very hard to understand how these things link together...
Click to expand...



Not a noise at all- a feeling- if I put my hand on my muscle as I moved it. Instead of smooth muscular movement, it felt like a rachet. I promise it had nothing to do with the state of the joint, but of the ability of the muscle to move smoothly (as a result of the abnormal nerological firing patterns to the motor units)

Thank God it's completely gone most of the time, returning when I'm fatigued. It's going away.

I have more than a passing knowledge of neurology (that's why this scared me). Dopamine is involved in a number of different actions. In the limbic system, it's involved with reward seeking, alertness and pleasure. In the deep midbrain, the cells are nearly black colored. (thus "substantia nigra") You can see it with your eyes in a dissected brain. These cells use dopamine and are involved in coordinating the production of movement. If the receptors are blocked or the cells die off, it causes Parkinsons syndrome, hallmarks of which include cogwheel rigidity, resting tremor, a stiff 'clamped-down' appearance- arms bent and held closely to the body, an unmoving mask-like facial expression... and a shuffling ('festinating') gait (think of Tim Conway's old guy character)

I had no reason in advance to expect M4OHN to have ANY action at these neurons, well except maybe that it's a stimulant.

There are cases of other drugs doing this. Antipsychotics like haldol are infamous for it.

In Monkeys, methamphetamine causes these symptoms. For a while they thought MDMA (ecstasy) did it too, but after the study was published, it turned out they were using methamphetamine, not MDMA.

Then there's the infamous case of a botched batch of a designer heroin that had something called MPTP in it. Completely wiped out the substantia nigra, turning the victims into living statues overnight, pretty much permanently.

The movie "Awakenings" is about a viral illness that did the same thing.

Many of the drugs that can do this may just do it to a small percentage of the people who use it (not MPTP- it's nasty).

I may just be an outlier.

And by the way. I am completly new to this group. I posted elsewhere (also as a newbie- I felt I had to say SOMETHING, and StrategOs recommended I post here.

The big question is whether it's happened to anybody else that didn't know what it meant?
 
rhinochaser48 said:
I asked someone who knows this areA well. Here's what he had to say:

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Click to expand...
You did, indeed find someone who knows what he's talking about. One very small point about dopamine antagonists:
Initially thay can cause muscle spasm-like problems called dystonias. After a couple of weeks, parkinsonian symptoms kick in, and only after years in most people will an abnormal increase in movement (tardive diskinesias) become a risk (as the body tries to compensate for blocked dopamine receptors by making them hypersensitive and in larger numbers).

A few weeks to a month after starting an antagonist is right in the zone for parkinsonian symptoms. Perhaps this responds differently to some dopamine receptors (blocking D1) than others (stimulating D2- for instance)

There are a million steroids that do a million different things in the brain. Some are involved in memory, some make you calm (the valium receptor really belongs to a couple of different steroids), some make you nervous, Some repair white matter damage. They even found one that is a powerful general anesthetic.
 
I'll be honest, and say I don't think it had anything at all to do with M4OHN. You were hardly taking enough to do anything at all, let alone induce Parkinsons.

You said you take a whole host of nootropics, among other things. Why don't you let us in on what all you take, what kind of training and diet you have, etc.

And why would you be taking nootropics in the first place? Weren't they invented for people with conditions like Parkinsons? You are 43--do you have a latent condition, perhaps?

And BTW, you're incorrect about the link between MDMA and Parkinson's-like symptoms. I have read three studies that show there is a definite link, particulalry in chronic users. One study may have been debunked, but it's pretty common knowledge now that Ecstacy fucks you up good. But you don't need a study to tell you that--I can point to ten or fifteen people I know that changed irreparably for the worst after a lot of MDMA binging...you wouldn't happen to be a regular MDMA user, would you?
 
INFOHAZARD said:
You did, indeed find someone who knows what he's talking about. One very small point about dopamine antagonists:
Initially thay can cause muscle spasm-like problems called dystonias. After a couple of weeks, parkinsonian symptoms kick in, and only after years in most people will an abnormal increase in movement (tardive diskinesias) become a risk (as the body tries to compensate for blocked dopamine receptors by making them hypersensitive and in larger numbers).

A few weeks to a month after starting an antagonist is right in the zone for parkinsonian symptoms. Perhaps this responds differently to some dopamine receptors (blocking D1) than others (stimulating D2- for instance)

There are a million steroids that do a million different things in the brain. Some are involved in memory, some make you calm (the valium receptor really belongs to a couple of different steroids), some make you nervous, Some repair white matter damage. They even found one that is a powerful general anesthetic.
Click to expand...


I saw your post and posted the link immediately over on Lyle's board for Kevin. This is one of the things that I think we should be paying closer attention to, because we are after all flirting with life-long vegetation if this theory is close to true.

Awareness is important. Risks should be calculated, not reckless.

I currently am running 16mg per day in a stack. It's only day 3, but I'll keep you updated.
 
I'll be honest, and say I don't think it had anything at all to do with M4OHN. You were hardly taking enough to do anything at all, let alone induce Parkinsons.
Just because you haven't seen one, you may not believe in giraffes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Doctor, why don't you wait a while and reserve judgment to see if there aren't others out there? I don't make any claim except that it happened to me and I believe the M4OHN I used was involved. Some drug reactions are one in a million (did I mention neuroleptic malignant syndrome?), some aren't. I read on one of these boards in the last couple of days that someone was in the ICU from what sounded like rhabdomyolysis due to their muscle building activities. Although no specific drug was mentioned, dopamine blockers can do that (rarely).(...By the way, why is everyone calling M4OHN and methyl Di pro-hormones when they patently are not?)

You said you take a whole host of nootropics, among other things. Why don't you let us in on what all you take, what kind of training and diet you have, etc.


I'm certainly not ruling out nootropics as one factor, but I been on a stable regimen for over a year with no trouble at all, and I'm still on it with no trouble now that I'm off the M4OHN.

At 43 I have gotten out of shape. Looking to lean down mostly with a small amount of bulking. Have been on medically supervised Adkins diet, less than 50 Carbs daily. (however, the M4OHN was my idea- I did a similar thing in the military in the 80's, back before they banned deca and started looking for it in the tests.)
My nutritional status is fine (B vitamin levels, etc), heart fine. Kidneys fine. No torsion (or any other) trauma to the head.

Workouts mostly daily aerobic exercise on lifecycle and other machines of that kind. Only light resistance training.

Lost 25 Lbs (over 2 months of dieting), and that does not take into account what must have been 20 Lbs of added muscle mass- my legs have become tree-trunks. Adkins alone can add some muscle it seems like, but the effects of the M4OHN (started a month after the diet began) were dynamite at first!

And why would you be taking nootropics in the first place? Weren't they invented for people with conditions like Parkinsons?

Hey, some folks want to pump up their bodies, some want to pump up their brain. As for me, my brain is my second favorite organ, so I want to treat it right.

The thing is, a lot of compounds with nootropic action are totally familiar to bodybuilders. It seems that both muscle and brain are high energy organs- so things that help create or utilize energy are seen in both hobbies. Many or most nootropics are antioxidant and can also protect neurons from injury from high calcium levels, hypoxia and over-excitation.

My nootropic stack?
creatine- only about 1-2 gram a day, but it synergises with the piracetam (about 2 grams a day). Try it sometimes- fantastic combo. I first reported on that one in rec.drugs.smart a while back. No idea why it synergises, but it sure does.

I may also take a gram of aniracetam, which is lipid-soluble, and lasts longer than piracetam . These -acetams have been used all over the world for decades (US excluded until recently they came out as supplements), and are remarkably non-toxic in real life. They are also commonly stacked. Just TRY finding a case of a serious adverse reaction in the literature.

Add to that about 100mg (low-dose) Alpha GPC for added acetyl choline.

Then a tad (perhaps 60mg) idebenone, a co-Q10 analogue that increases the efficiency of the electron transport chain- which is what you need if you want to have no problem phosporylating that creatine floating around in your system.

Then, letsee, I keep my liver and mitochondria anti-oxidized with vitamin E and Alpha lipoic acid.
Then there's a gram of TMG (along with B-50 on many days to keep the reactions moving in the right direction).

Dr. Brodus, given your general skeptical tone, I can well guess what sweeping generalization you might give. What I challenge you to do is to give a cogent specific argument, based on more knowledge than you have shown about MDMA (which I will get to).

Now, how many of those nootropics can you spot that can influence the dopaminergic system? Since you probably wouldn't know, I will fill you in:

1) Piracetam and aniracetam tend to increase DA release (but not by direct action on the receptor), at least in rats.
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2) Alpha GPC increases acetyl choline, and would be expected to have a mild inhibitory effect on dopamine in the substantia nigra.

3) ALA increases dopaminergic transmission, especially in old rats like me.
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4) Creatine and idebenone act in every cell in your body. There is mixed evidence regarding whether idebenone can increase free radicals (probably in proportion to the degree it increases ATP production). The in-vivo evidence looks like it actually acts as an anti-oxidant, much like Co-Q10.

5) TMG converts to SAM-e, which is necessary for both the production and breakdown of DA. It also becomes glutathione, which is a critically important antioxidant int he brain and liver.

If, for the sake of argument, excess free radicals from idebenone led to a toxic effect, I would not be getting better, so we can rule that one out.



You are 43--do you have a latent condition, perhaps?

I am NOT a homosexual!
;-)


But seriously, even if I had something ready to blow-up on me:

-My life of loose cars and fast women catching up

-My nootropic cocktail of death

-Impending idiopathic parkinsons disease that has not previously declared itself
The facts remain this: Those have all remained the same throughout this odyssey. I start the M4OHN and a few weeks later I get cogwheeling. I quit the M4OHN and the cogwheeling resolves over about a week.

The M4OHN is doing something to my dopamine receptors.

And BTW, you're incorrect about the link between MDMA and Parkinson's-like symptoms. I have read three studies that show there is a definite link, particularly in chronic users. One study may have been debunked, but it's pretty common knowledge now that Ecstasy fucks you up good. But you don't need a study to tell you that--I can point to ten or fifteen people I know that changed irreparably for the worst after a lot of MDMA binging...you wouldn't happen to be a regular MDMA user, would you?

Why no, but I have been taking antipsychotics for the last 20 years.

Jeeez. I'd think you were trying to besmirch my good reputation if it weren't for the fact that I have no reputation at all around here.

I have met Alexander Shulgin though. His brain works just fine.
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By the way- the damage caused by MDMA is to the serotonin system, not dopamine system. There were a few papers after Ricuarte's screw-up that took it as a matter of fact, but it just ain't so with the dopamine. What ravers get off the street is typically NOT MDMA, and can be anything from Meth (a dopamine toxin, frequently seen to cause psychosis) to PMA (a truly nasty drug that has led to hyperthermic deaths).

In the end, I'm not here to prove anything, but I had this happen to me, that it is, in my estimation directly (if not wholly) related to M4OHN, and that I had better share my experience as the ethical thing to do.

Read the posts as they come in. If no one else had shuffling gait or cogwheeling, that says something, don't it? If a few people had those problems, that says something else. If a lot of people remark that they didn't know what it was, but that they did get those symptoms, it means yet something else.

Quit making rash judgments, Dr Brodus and read the posts.

Oh yeah; the thing about me taking antipsychotics? Just checking to see if you were paying attention.

INFOHAZARD
Come and visit at rec.drugs.smart- The water's fine
 
I doubt that M4OHN would cause such symptoms. I believe it's most likely a contaminate in the M4OHN. You might want to contact the seller. Although expensive you could send out the remaining m4ohn to see if it is pure or what it really might be.
 
ersatz said:
I doubt that M4OHN would cause such symptoms. I believe it's most likely a contaminate in the M4OHN. You might want to contact the seller. Although expensive you could send out the remaining m4ohn to see if it is pure or what it really might be.
Click to expand...

I have a few comments to add in here, not that I want to believe infohazard is correct, but I'm afraid he might be on to something.

Chemical compounds rarely have a single, exclusive mode of action in the human body. They usually have a huge array of effects in addition to what it was intended for, (that's why we have side effects).

M4OHN is new to our drug world. There is little data available on it's effects on the human body. Anything is still possible.

It's very possible that there was a contaminant in his batch of M4OHN, but the chances of the contaminant being the root cause of a disruption of the dopaminergic system is far less likely than if it were caused by the compound itself.

I'm just glad I only bought as much as I did, because in light of this possible side, I think I'm better off sticking to drugs that I can predict and anticipate side effects with.
 
INFOHAZARD I hope you stick around. i enjoy reading your post.
and DR. D too.

TRUE...that we know NOTHING about these new Steroids.
We still have SS & Brodus GUESSING dosages for M4ohn.LOL
Its a shame.

Im waiting for DR. D to chime in.
 
"At 43 I have gotten out of shape. Looking to lean down mostly with a small amount of bulking. Have been on medically supervised Adkins diet, less than 50 Carbs daily. "

Whatever...I don't trust the feedback of a 43 year-old longtime drug user with bad genetics, sorry. I don't really care what the one-in-a-million adverse response to a ridiculously low dosage of the safest methyl on the market is. "Adkins" (sic) is bullshit if you're an athlete, but you're obviously not. Why don't you look into what long-term carb depletion does to your neurotransmitters? Too busy shopping for low-carb bread? Maybe if you buy ten more books and pay some more gurus to tell you how to live, you'll finally get it right, huh? Maybe you need to up your dosage of Piractem to finally feel intelligent. That's a good plan, isn't it? Then you and your loser pals on rec.smartfuck.loser can pretend you didn't do shitty on your life exam, and pat each other on the back for how your perception of yourself is so much better. We both know the reality, Chachi.

I don't get my data from rec.drug.dumfuck, I get my data from Olympic coaches who work with people that have good genetics and superhuman drive. Have fun with this thread, I don't really care about it anymore. Blame it on a miniscule dose of M4OHN, and then pop a few decades worth of anti-psychotics and MDMA to make you feel good about yourself. I don't give a ****. Maybe if you and Dr Shulgin (sp?) get together and do enough recreational drugs, you'll be able to convince yourselves that you're in fact not nasty aging hippies whose bloating bodies and cancerous epistemologies are actually meaningless in the dating game; maybe you can hold onto your super-trip long enough to even convince a young girl to screw you (oh....exciting!); but she will wake up one day, and so will you, and maybe Dr. Shulgin will too, and then you'll have to face the reailty that all you've been doing is lying to yourself. You're like the guy who gets a C on a test and then wants to pretend he's an A student.

Well **** you, and **** Dr. Drug, and everything you think. At the end of the day, you're an aging dumbass who hasn't come to terms with it, and now wants to be young a spry, sexy, vibrant, super-intelligent male after making lifestyle choices that prevent this, so you want a chemical solution. Ask Dr. Whitehair how fast he runs a mile? What his bench is? How much his standardized test scores have improved from his drug usage? How much more talented he has become in the arts? Oh...right...these are arbitrary delineations that don't have meaning in your world, the world of the old **** who wishes to redefine things in order to uphold theit tenuous self image, which is built upon half-truths, nootropics (please, these are so pathetic), and excuses.

You've already lost, and you know it. Glad you found a chemcial to blame your lifestyle choices on. Maybe if you buy a new fast car you'll forget about your age and the fact your pre-Parkinsons, bitch.

P.S. You're right, the secret to eternal youth and vibrancy and peace isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a drug called MDMA. IF you take enough of it for long enough, you'll actually turn into a superhuman. I have a line on the good stuff, pure MDMA. I'll send you 20 grams, and you do it everyday for a few months, then we'll do brain scans and body re-comp photos and settle this matter, so we can show everyone how completely RADI-cool this drug is...actually, I shouldn't call it a drug, because its really your sacrament.
 
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"TRUE...that we know NOTHING about these new Steroids.
We still have SS & Brodus GUESSING dosages for M4ohn.LOL
Its a shame."

The funny thing with you people is that you chastise me for believing that the carcinogenic risk of a known toxic, Tamoxifen, is enough for me to chose different PCT protocols, yet you get a single adverse report from a non-prime candidate regarding the safest methyl on the market at a miniscule dose, and you treat it like the golden rule truth. Where the **** is your objectivity? MOST OF US ON THIS BOARD have done M4OHN at 4X his dose...that means nothing now?

You guys will trash a person who has an adverse reaction to Usnic Acid, and come up with a thousand scenarios for how they already had liver conditions, etc., but a 43-yr. old non-athlete makes a post about M4OHN and Parkinson's and you take it seriously?!! Double-fucking standard beyond belief....
 
Interesting topic...
As most have replied, I doubt that it has been a side of m4ohn. More probably to some contaminant or to some of the drugs you were taking with.
Combined effects are completely unpredictable with drugs and steroids.

Take note that m4ohn is supposed to raise dopamine levels, not to lower them.
Such a low dose you have taken cant cause by itself a serious problem like the one you experienced.
Most pelople here have taken at least 2 or 3 times your dosage.
I'm on week 5 of a 24mg dose and i have experienced no sides at all (not even acne).

I'm pretty sure that its not a (rare) side of m4ohn by itself.
 
Brodus said:
Hell no, never noticed it, I've run two real cycles at real dosages, i.e. 32mg/day. This has been by far the mildest and best overall PH I have done. This report is an anomaly.
Click to expand...

This is consistent with my experience as well. It sounds more like how I felt on M1T.
 
Brodus said:
"At 43 I have gotten out of shape. Looking to lean down mostly with a small amount of bulking. Have been on medically supervised Adkins diet, less than 50 Carbs daily. "

Whatever...I don't trust the feedback of a 43 year-old longtime drug user with bad genetics, sorry. I don't really care what the one-in-a-million adverse response to a ridiculously low dosage of the safest methyl on the market is. "Adkins" (sic) is bullshit if you're an athlete, but you're obviously not. Why don't you look into what long-term carb depletion does to your n...eurotransmitters? Too busy shopping for low-carb bread? Maybe if you buy ten more books and pay some more gurus to tell you how to live, you'll finally get it right, huh? Maybe you need to up your dosage of Piractem to finally feel intelligent. That's a good plan, isn't it? Then you and your loser pals on rec.smartfuck.loser can pretend you didn't do shitty on your life exam, and pat each other on the back for how your perception of yourself is so much better. We both know the reality, Chachi.

I don't get my data from rec.drug.dumfuck, I get my data from Olympic coaches who work with people that have good genetics and superhuman drive. Have fun with this thread, I don't really care about it anymore. Blame it on a miniscule dose of M4OHN, and then pop a few decades worth of anti-psychotics and MDMA to make you feel good about yourself. I don't give a ****. Maybe if you and Dr Shulgin (sp?) get together and do enough recreational drugs, you'll be able to convince yourselves that you're in fact not nasty aging hippies whose bloating bodies and cancerous epistemologies are actually meaningless in the d...ating game; maybe you can hold onto your super-trip long enough to even convince a young girl to screw you (oh....exciting!); but she will wake up one day, and so will you, and maybe Dr. Shulgin will too, and then you'll have to face the reailty that all you've been doing is lying to yourself. You're like the guy who gets a C on a test and then wants to pretend he's an A student.

Well **** you, and **** Dr. Drug, and everything you think. At the end of the day, you're an aging dumbass who hasn't come to terms with it, and now wants to be young a spry, sexy, vibrant, super-intelligent male after making lifestyle choices that prevent this, so you want a chemical solution. Ask Dr. Whitehair how fast he runs a mile? What his bench is? How much his standardized test scores have improved from his drug usage? How much more talented he has become in the arts? Oh...right...these are a...rbitrary delineations that don't have meaning in your world, the world of the old **** who wishes to redefine things in order to uphold theit tenuous self image, which is built upon half-truths, nootropics (please, these are so pathetic), and excuses.

You've already lost, and you know it. Glad you found a chemcial to blame your lifestyle choices on. Maybe if you buy a new fast car you'll forget about your age and the fact your pre-Parkinsons, bitch.

P.S. You're right, the secret to eternal youth and vibrancy and peace isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a drug called MDMA. IF you take enough of it for long enough, you'll actually turn into a superhuman. I have a line on the good stuff, pure MDMA. I'll send you 20 grams, and you do it everyday for a few months, then we'll do brain scans and body re-comp photos and settle this matter, so we can show everyone how completely RADI-cool this drug is...actually, I shouldn't call it a drug, because its really your sacrament.
Click to expand...
lmaoooooo .Good points ...
 
Brodus said:
"At 43 I have gotten out of shape. Looking to lean down mostly with a small amount of bulking. Have been on medically supervised Adkins diet, less than 50 Carbs daily. "

Whatever...I don't trust the feedback of a 43 year-old longtime drug user with bad genetics, sorry. I don't really care what the one-in-a-million adverse response to a ridiculously low dosage of the safest methyl on the market is. "Adkins" (sic) is bullshit if you're an athlete, but you're obviously not. Why don't you look into what long-term carb depletion does to your neurotransmitters? Too busy shopping for low-carb bread? Maybe if you buy ten more books and pay some more gurus to tell you how to live, you'll finally get it right, huh? Maybe you need to up your dosage of Piractem to finally feel intelligent. That's a good plan, isn't it? Then you and your loser pals on rec.smartfuck.loser can pretend you didn't do shitty on your life exam, and pat each other on the back for how your perception of yourself is so much better. We both know the reality, Chachi.

I don't get my data from rec.drug.dumfuck, I get my data from Olympic coaches who work with people that have good genetics and superhuman drive. Have fun with this thread, I don't really care about it anymore. Blame it on a miniscule dose of M4OHN, and then pop a few decades worth of anti-psychotics and MDMA to make you feel good about yourself. I don't give a ****. Maybe if you and Dr Shulgin (sp?) get together and do enough recreational drugs, you'll be able to convince yourselves that you're in fact not nasty aging hippies whose bloating bodies and cancerous epistemologies are actually meaningless in the dating game; maybe you can hold onto your super-trip long enough to even convince a young girl to screw you (oh....exciting!); but she will wake up one day, and so will you, and maybe Dr. Shulgin will too, and then you'll have to face the reailty that all you've been doing is lying to yourself. You're like the guy who gets a C on a test and then wants to pretend he's an A student.

Well **** you, and **** Dr. Drug, and everything you think. At the end of the day, you're an aging dumbass who hasn't come to terms with it, and now wants to be young a spry, sexy, vibrant, super-intelligent male after making lifestyle choices that prevent this, so you want a chemical solution. Ask Dr. Whitehair how fast he runs a mile? What his bench is? How much his standardized test scores have improved from his drug usage? How much more talented he has become in the arts? Oh...right...these are arbitrary delineations that don't have meaning in your world, the world of the old **** who wishes to redefine things in order to uphold theit tenuous self image, which is built upon half-truths, nootropics (please, these are so pathetic), and excuses.

You've already lost, and you know it. Glad you found a chemcial to blame your lifestyle choices on. Maybe if you buy a new fast car you'll forget about your age and the fact your pre-Parkinsons, bitch.

P.S. You're right, the secret to eternal youth and vibrancy and peace isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a drug called MDMA. IF you take enough of it for long enough, you'll actually turn into a superhuman. I have a line on the good stuff, pure MDMA. I'll send you 20 grams, and you do it everyday for a few months, then we'll do brain scans and body re-comp photos and settle this matter, so we can show everyone how completely RADI-cool this drug is...actually, I shouldn't call it a drug, because its really your sacrament.
Click to expand...


Now tell me what you really think, Mr Brodus.

I seem to have hit a nerve, but you are certainally entitled to your opinion.

I just don't know that it's worth going ape-**** over.


INFOHAZARD
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
Well, I've got others!" -Groucho Marx
 
Brodus said:
The funny thing with you people is that you chastise me for believing that the carcinogenic risk of a known toxic, Tamoxifen, is enough for me to chose different PCT protocols, yet you get a single adverse report from a non-prime candidate regarding the safest methyl on the market at a miniscule dose, and you treat it like the golden rule truth. Where the **** is your objectivity? MOST OF US ON THIS BOARD have done M4OHN at 4X his dose...that means nothing now?

You guys will trash a person who has an adverse reaction to Usnic Acid, and come up with a thousand scenarios for how they already had liver conditions, etc., but a 43-yr. old non-athlete makes a post about M4OHN and Parkinson's and you take it seriously?!! Double-fucking standard beyond belief....
Click to expand...
wtf are you talking about? OFF TOPIC
are you regurgitating Dr. D's views on Tamoxifen?....I NEVER criticized you for thinking Nolva is too toxic for pct.
and I never said I believed INFOHAZARD 100%.....I said we dont know **** about these new steroids.
how do you know M4OHN is safe? any long term studies? Or is this Dr. Brodus talking out of his ass again.
you were GUESSING dosages.
you were agreeing on a 200mg dose....and you agree'd it would be safe LOL
Invalid Link Removed

btw...thank you for your time Dr. Brodus.
 
Brodus said:
"At 43 I have gotten out of shape. Looking to lean down mostly with a small amount of bulking. Have been on medically supervised Adkins diet, less than 50 Carbs daily. "

Whatever...I don't trust the feedback of a 43 year-old longtime drug user with bad genetics, sorry. I don't really care what the one-in-a-million adverse response to a ridiculously low dosage of the safest methyl on the market is. "Adkins" (sic) is bullshit if you're an athlete, but you're obviously not. Why don't you look into what long-term carb depletion does to your neurotransmitters? Too busy shopping for low-carb bread? Maybe if you buy ten more books and pay some more gurus to tell you how to live, you'll finally get it right, huh? Maybe you need to up your dosage of Piractem to finally feel intelligent. That's a good plan, isn't it? Then you and your loser pals on rec.smartfuck.loser can pretend you didn't do shitty on your life exam, and pat each other on the back for how your perception of yourself is so much better. We both know the reality, Chachi.

I don't get my data from rec.drug.dumfuck, I get my data from Olympic coaches who work with people that have good genetics and superhuman drive. Have fun with this thread, I don't really care about it anymore. Blame it on a miniscule dose of M4OHN, and then pop a few decades worth of anti-psychotics and MDMA to make you feel good about yourself. I don't give a ****. Maybe if you and Dr Shulgin (sp?) get together and do enough recreational drugs, you'll be able to convince yourselves that you're in fact not nasty aging hippies whose bloating bodies and cancerous epistemologies are actually meaningless in the dating game; maybe you can hold onto your super-trip long enough to even convince a young girl to screw you (oh....exciting!); but she will wake up one day, and so will you, and maybe Dr. Shulgin will too, and then you'll have to face the reailty that all you've been doing is lying to yourself. You're like the guy who gets a C on a test and then wants to pretend he's an A student.

Well **** you, and **** Dr. Drug, and everything you think. At the end of the day, you're an aging dumbass who hasn't come to terms with it, and now wants to be young a spry, sexy, vibrant, super-intelligent male after making lifestyle choices that prevent this, so you want a chemical solution. Ask Dr. Whitehair how fast he runs a mile? What his bench is? How much his standardized test scores have improved from his drug usage? How much more talented he has become in the arts? Oh...right...these are arbitrary delineations that don't have meaning in your world, the world of the old **** who wishes to redefine things in order to uphold theit tenuous self image, which is built upon half-truths, nootropics (please, these are so pathetic), and excuses.

You've already lost, and you know it. Glad you found a chemcial to blame your lifestyle choices on. Maybe if you buy a new fast car you'll forget about your age and the fact your pre-Parkinsons, bitch.

P.S. You're right, the secret to eternal youth and vibrancy and peace isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a drug called MDMA. IF you take enough of it for long enough, you'll actually turn into a superhuman. I have a line on the good stuff, pure MDMA. I'll send you 20 grams, and you do it everyday for a few months, then we'll do brain scans and body re-comp photos and settle this matter, so we can show everyone how completely RADI-cool this drug is...actually, I shouldn't call it a drug, because its really your sacrament.
Click to expand...
childish post.
 
damn Brodus, do you own a patent on m4ohn or something???

that was some pretty heavy offense to be taking about some dude's opinion, even as lame an opinion as it was.

are you taking those 200mg doses right now or something?

do i percieve a bit of ...... hmmmm...could it be...ROID RAGE!?!?!
lol
 
I think the boy feels threatened. Doesn't make a lot of sense except on some fairly primitive level- like you'll take his anabolics away from him when you pull them out of his cold, dead hands.

I'm not the bad guy, and I am not moralizing about anabolic use.

Heck, If I can find one that treats me right, I might get back on that horse. I understand Methyl-Dien doesn't have much by way of stimulant or mood activity.... Advice anyone- maybe on a new thread?

INFOHAZARD
 
INFOHAZARD said:
I understand Methyl-Dien doesn't have much by way of stimulant or mood activity.... Advice anyone- maybe on a new thread?
Click to expand...
Yes, if you post the complete list of drugs that you were taking at the same time than m4ohn.
And other recent cycles of drugs that may have had hit your nervous system.
 
Syr said:
Yes, if you post the complete list of drugs that you were taking at the same time than m4ohn.
And other recent cycles of drugs that may have had hit your nervous system.
Click to expand...
As mentioned in a previous post, I've been on this particular nootropic stack for many months:

Creatine- only about 1-2 gram a day, but it synergises with the piracetam (about 2 grams a day). No idea why it synergises, but it sure does.

I may also take a gram of aniracetam, which is lipid-soluble, and lasts longer than piracetam .

Add to that about 100mg (low-dose) Alpha GPC for added acetyl choline.

Then a tad (perhaps 60mg) idebenone

Then, letsee, I keep my liver and mitochondria anti-oxidized with vitamin E (various forms) and Alpha lipoic acid (500mg daily).

Then there's a gram of TMG along with B-50 on many days to keep the reactions moving in the right direction, and a daily multivitamin."


I took a couple of things just a time or two while on M4OHN:
Pyridoxamine 100 mg times one on day one of M4OHN
Acetyl L-Carnitine 650mg on a couple of occasions.
Methyl-Di 1mg times one- I went with the M4OHN. One thing of note, right before I started getting a problem with MOHN, I began to try to find a transdermal formula to mix it in. Settled on grapeseed oil and a bit of Vitamin E and I mostly used it sublingually. Don't know if I just ended up swallowing it though.

No other anabolics or pro-hormones.

Thanks,

INFOHAZARD
 
i get some excellent rage from my ohn @ 60/day. you can feel the buzz coming on within minutes. & i'm in customer service! woohoo
 
TheUsual said:
What manufacturer's M4OHN were you using? powder or caps?
Click to expand...
I started off with the 2% cut powder from smi2le. Since it was cut with vit. C and I wanted to experiment with coming up with a transdermal or sublingual version, I bought some of the pure powder. Let's just say I have lots and lots (and lots) of doses left over (something like 9 gm).

Mind you, I never had the first problem with any of Smi2le's products before, and I been buying from him since he started. That's why I'm a little hesitant to conclude there's a contaminant (as opposed to my own bad reaction to the same thing everyone else has).
 
Try an anticholinergic for dyskinetic sides. A stimulant (even caffiene) may offer some acute benefits too. That's the best relief for extrapyramidal stimulation. It could be depleted dopamine levels with a turn-over rate too low to accommodate you or it could be of serotonergic origin. It's definitely an idosyncrasy though. This is not common to M4OHN.

I don't know if Brodus nailed the issue or not, but even if he was off-base, you fellas should respect his view and be more careful with him. I personally would not take him to war unless I had to!

Let's try to refocus on just the pertinent info. :)
 
you mean Dr. Brodus.and yes ...he was off-base and out of line.
and NO....i dont respect his views (200mg is safe).......
 
DR.D said:
Try an anticholinergic for dyskinetic sides. A stimulant (even caffiene) may offer some acute benefits too. That's the best relief for extrapyramidal stimulation. It could be depleted dopamine levels with a turn-over rate too low to accommodate you or it could be of serotonergic origin. It's definitely an idosyncrasy though. This is not common to M4OHN.

I don't know if Brodus nailed the issue or not, but even if he was off-base, you fellas should respect his view and be more careful with him. I personally would not take him to war unless I had to!

Let's try to refocus on just the pertinent info. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. Come to think of it, the idebenone enhances serotonin quite a bit (as does TMG), and the Alpha GPC is acetylcholine enhancing, mix well with M4OHN and voila! I'm doin' the ratchet.

Wait- wait... NEWS FLASH! I was rummaging through pubmed while I was writing this and I think I found a mechanism! An extremely low estrogenic state (I did have a tad of 6-OXO on board at perhaps critical times as well) has direct effect on the nigro-striatal pathway. Get this quote:
"Precisely, we found that dopaminergic neurons are direct targets for estrogen and that estrogen stimulates neurite extension/branching and the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase, the key enzyme in dopamine synthesis. Together with other in vivo studies, we might draw the conclusion that estrogen is required for the plasticity and activity of the developing and adult nigrostriatal system. The presence of the estrogen-synthesizing enzyme aromatase within the nigrostriatal system further supports this idea. Surprisingly, estrogen effects on nigrostriatal cell function are not only transmitted by classical nuclear estrogen receptors but also depend on nonclassical estrogen actions mediated through putative membrane receptors coupled to diverse intracellular signaling cascades."
Invalid Link Removed

Now how much do I want to screw around with aromatizables? Hmmm. Would clomiphene be a better choice than 6-OXO? Maybe I can still use the M4OHN if I can keep the cerebral estrogen activity balanced... God knows I have enough M4OHN.


By the way, I hear you about Brodus, but one thing my momma taught me is that I'm not placed on this earth to be abused, especially from a grown man throwing a tantrum like a 3 year-old.


But really, You said it, this is all just make believe. I'm still here and he hasn't crushed me with his awsome powers.


It's not for me to do anything; he hurts himself. On the other hand, he's the kind of guy you really wouldn't want sitting down next to you at a bar.




INFOHAZARD
Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed (1883 - 1931)
 
well, i ran it close to 40mg/QD and had no sides except this damn acne that won't go away on my shoulders.

back to the argument........
 
Hey jah, nice to see you have asserted yourself as Ethical Manager for a board you just found.

Regurgitating? I did my own research, which is quite a bit more than you did when you couldn't figure out that M4OHN and MOHN were the same thing...now you're the expert? And now you know more than the beta testers and actual healthy subjects that got blood work done?

I'm glad you decided to share your immense knowledge with the board. We'll just pretend for a moment that you didn't know that M4OHN is a Dopamine agonist, that carb depletion effects neurotransmitters, and that long-term use of fat-soluble "nootropics" does as well...and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt for failing organic chemistry. Oh, and we'll overlook the fact that you don't seem to know that in all of the rest of us healthy subjects, M4OHN REDUCES JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS...but you see, even if we give you all of these handicaps, you still are guilty of immense statistical bias, by beliving one anamolous report that is not validated by anything, over the countless reports on this board.

Re: Tamox, I had reams of studies behind me, that I found ON MY OWN, after reading Dr. D's post, and STILL I was considered to be over-cautious in my decision to drop Tamox therapy...here we have an out-of-shape, older, long-term drug user telling us he got Parkinsons from 8mg. of M4OHN...which is why I call BULLSHIT. Note there was no diagnosis, no referral or physicians recommendation, just an anecdote by someone who idolizes a recreational drug guru. In the world of science and objectivity, this is shorthand for BAD SOURCE OF INFORMATION. This guy posted about M4OHN transdermal?! Hello..that buzzer isn't the "Brodus is an asshole" buzzer...it's the one that's connected to the "newbie in over his head" light that's flashing at the end of the aisle your standing in with the Hazardous Infomaster.

Re: My M4OHN dosage hypothesis, I never once said "do 200 mg," but my theory, based on more factors than you seem to be aware of, is that the dosage/toxicity curve is likely not steep...actually, before I go into that, let me ask you what it is about the chemical structure of M4OHN that leads YOU to believe it's more risky than, say, M1,4 (which people are dosing at 200mg. now) or M4AD (250-300mg. dosing)? Or hell, any of the Oral AAS that people megadose? I have a very solid argument for my position, but all you have is your little bitch-off about me being out of line? WTF? Please explain what is so special about the M4OHN molecule that makes it so much more hepatoxic than M1,4, because to my eyes, I don't see it?

Also, can you explain how a Dopamine Agonist would become an antagonist on its own, without any chemical assitance?

You do know that as you age, dopamine levels drop, right, about 13% per decade? You did know that Urea poisioning from long-term carb-depletion is a reality before you posted your ethical judgement, yes? And let me guess, you knew that the drugs M4OHN closely resembles are dosed in WOMEN at 80mg+ for 30-60 days, but you had to overlook that one b/c the porn you were downloading just finished?

Or maybe you just don't believe in deductive logic, since you don't seem to apply it here?

And in regards to Atkins:

"Experts have voiced a longstanding concern that ketosis might fog up people’s thinking, but wasn’t formally tested until 1995. As reported in the International Journal of Obesity article "Cognitive Effects of Ketogenic Weight-Reducing Diets," researchers randomized people to either a ketogenic or a nonketogenic weight loss diet. Although both groups lost the same amount of weight, those on the ketogenic diet suffered a significant drop in cognitive performance.196
After one week in ketosis, higher order mental processing and mental flexibility significantly worsened into what the researcher called a "modest neuropsychological impairment."

Oh...but this couldn't possibly be a factor, right? I'm just being mean? Or am I:

"The MIT researchers found that the brain only made serotonin after a person ate carbohydrates. Carbohydrates seemed to naturally stimulate serotonin"

Hmm...


"the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet. So does the American Cancer Society; and the American Heart Association; and the Cleveland Clinic; and Johns Hopkins’ and the American Kidney Fund; and the American College of Sports Medicine; and the National Institutes of Health.

In fact there does not seem to be a single major governmental or nonprofit medical, nutrition, or science-based organization in the world that supports the Atkins Diet.

As a 2004 medical journal review concluded, the Atkins Diet "runs counter to all the current evidence-based dietary recommendations."

And If you know what a meta-analysis is, this might interest you:

"A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books… rely on poorly controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric. This review illustrates the complexity of nutrition misinformation perpetrated by some popular press diet books. A closer look at the science behind the claims made for [these books] reveals nothing more than a modern twist on an antique food fad."


But you don't need me to interpret this....why don't you read it for yourself...here's a few things to get started on:

1 The Chronicle (Houston, TX) 9 March 1973.2 The New York Weekly 26 March 1973.

3 Maryland State Medical Journal 1974:70.

4 Obesity and Fad Diets. U.S. Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs. 12 April 1973 CIS S581-13.

5 Obesity and Fad Diets. U.S. Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs. 12 April 1973 CIS S581-13.

6 Shape Up America! news release 29 December 2003.

7 Journal of the American Dietetics Association 102(2002):260.

8 Chicago Tribune 18 October 1999.

9 Tampa Tribune (Florida) 19 October 1999.

10 Journal of the American Dietetics Association 66(1975):277.

11 Chicago Tribune 18 October 1999.

12 Dietician’s Edge November-December 2001:42.

13 Institute of Medicine. Weighing the Options: Criteria for Evaluating Weight-Management Programs, The National Academies Press, 1995.

14 American Cancer Society. Weighing In on Low Carb Diets. 2004. Invalid Link Removed

15 Circulation 104(2001):1869.

16 The Cleveland Clinic. High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diets. August 2003. Invalid Link Removed.

17 Diabetes 2004. Johns Hopkins University White Paper, 2004.

18 American Kidney Fund news release 25 April 2002.

19 Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 33(2001):2145.

20 National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases. Choosing a Safe and Successful Weight-Loss Program. NIH Publ. No. 94-3700. National Institutes of Health, Rockville, MD. 1993.

21 Circulation 104(2001):1869.

22 Journal of the American College of Cardiology 43(2004):725.

23 Journal of the American College of Nutrition 22(2003):9.

24 The New York Times 10 September 2002.

25 Donaldson, BF. Strong Medicine. Doubleday, 1960.

26 Hamilton, EMN and EN Whitney. Nutrition: Concepts and Controversies. Second Edition. West Publishing Company, 1982.

27 Fraser, L. Losing It. Penguin Books, 1997.

28 Fraser, L. Losing It. Penguin Books, 1997.

29 Agatson, A. The South Beach Diet. Rodale, 2003.

30 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution. Avon Books, 1999.

31 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

32 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

33 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

34 Australian Magazine 10 April 2004.

35 Deutsch, RM. The New Nuts Among the Berries. Palo Alto, CA, 1977.

36 Modern Medicine 28 May 1973:132.

37 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

38 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

39 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution. Avon Books, 1992.

40 British Medical Journal 326(2003):1090.

41 Journal of the American Dietetics Association 100(2000):760.

42 New York Times Magazine 7 July 2002.

43 CNN/Money 1 December 2003.

44 Scripps Howard News Service 24 April 2003.

45 The Washington Post 27 August 2002.

46 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

47 The Washington Post 27 August 2002.

48 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

49 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

50 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

51 Reason magazine March 2003

52 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

53 Obesity Research 9(2001):1S.

54 Magazine Publishers of America news release 21 August 2003.

55 Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, FL) 11 April 2004.

56 Tufts University Health and Nutrition Letter 22(2004):1.

57 Tufts University Health and Nutrition Letter 22(2004):1.

58 Harvard Health Letter November 2003:5.

59 Agatson, A. The South Beach Diet. Rodale, 2003.

60 Tufts University Health and Nutrition Letter 22(2004):1.

61 Agatson, A. The South Beach Diet. Rodale, 2003.

62 Tufts University Health and Nutrition Letter 22(2004):1.

63 USDA Agriculture Research Service. Nutrient Data Laboratory. National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.

64 Agatson, A. The South Beach Diet. Rodale, 2003.

65 PR Newswire 21 May 2004.

66 Scripps Howard News Service 19 February 2004.

67 The New York Times 14 April 2004.

68 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution. David McKay Company, Inc., 1972.

69 Fortune 17 May 2004.

70 Family Practice News 15 March 2004.

71 Atkins, RC. Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution. Avon Books, 1999.

72 Eades, MR and MD Eades. Protein Power. Bantam, 1997.

73 Sears, B. Enter the Zone. Regan Books, 1995.

74 American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1997):1264.

75 Diabetes care 7(1984):465.

76 American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50(1997):1264.

77 American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50(1997):1264.

78 Journal of the American Dietetics Association 1010(2001):411.

79 Schweizerische medizinische Wochenschrift 107(1977):1017.

80 Journal of the American College of Nutrition 22(2003):9.

81 Australian Family Physician 6(1977):155.

82 Journal of the American Medical Association 289(2003):1773.

83 "One Year Effectiveness of the Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers, and Zone Diets in Decreasing Body Weight and Heart Disease Risk" by Michael L. Dansinger, Joi L. Gleason, John L. Griffith, Wenjun Li, Harry P. Selker, Ernst Schaefer; Tufts University, New England Medical Center, Boston, Mass.

84 Diabetes Care 16(1993):1459.

85 American Journal of Cardiology 69(1992):440.

86 Metabolism 43(1994):621.

87 Nutrition Reviews July 1974:1s.

88 University of California at Berkeley Wellness Letter April 2000.

89 Journal of the American College of Nutrition 22(2003):9.

90 Journal of the American Dietetics Association 100(2000):760.

91 Nutrition Action Healthletter November 2002.

92 Health 19(1996):102.

93 Archives of Internal Medicine 112(1963):87.

94 Journal of Clinical Investigation 58(1976):529.

95 Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine 68(2001):761.

96 The Washington Post 23 November 1999.

97 Journal of the American Medical Association 289(2003):1854.

98 Callaway, W. The Callaway Diet. Bantam, 1990.

99 Lancet 2(1960):939.

100 Obesity Research 9(2001):1S.

101 Medical Journal of Australia 175(2001):637.

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"Precisely, we found that dopaminergic neurons are direct targets for estrogen and that estrogen stimulates neurite extension/branching and the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase, the key enzyme in dopamine synthesis. Together with other in vivo studies, we might draw the conclusion that estrogen is required for the plasticity and activity of the developing and adult nigrostriatal system. The presence of the estrogen-synthesizing enzyme aromatase within the nigrostriatal system further supports this idea. "

Anyone who's ever used both "wet" and "dry" steroids already knows this.
 
Yeah, I'd be a real pain to hang out with in a bar...the funny part is I played guitar with Billy Corgan at Stanleys last night, while the pitcher for the Cubs streaked the place. Oh, and Chelios sang a tune, too.
 
chasec said:
well, i ran it close to 40mg/QD and had no sides except this damn acne that won't go away on my shoulders.

back to the argument........
Click to expand...
My back acne ain't from anabolics (actually the M4OHN made it a little better), but I did find major relief with L-theanine 200mg four times daily (buy in bulk- the powder tastes great!) It has significant immune-enhancing properties that really worked for me. I believe you can google reports on a study out of Brigham and Womans Hospital (Harvard) on the larger issue of immune enhancement and theanine. Best thing ever for my acne.

Your milage may vary.

INFOHAZARD
 
Well, this is the first report I've read of anyone's response to Smi2le's overpriced 2%M4OHN. I've had good experience with Smi2le, but considering the reports of non hydroxl M4ohn being shipped into the US, and no COA from Rizzer, I'll stick with DS and Custom, non of these weird reports coming from their products.

I don't have a horse in this race, if I did it would be Brodus, he gets high marks from me for general credibility of reasoning.
 
I want to appologize for the personal attacks on Info, there isn't a need for that, I got carried away, and they don't serve much of a pupose other than to elicit laugther, so sorry InfoHazard.

You're position has softened as well, I see, which is logical in the face of all the possible contributing factors.

But...I stand by my assessment of the situation.
 
Rogue Drone said:
Well, this is the first report I've read of anyone's response to Smi2le's overpriced 2%M4OHN. I've had good experience with Smi2le, but considering the reports of non hydroxl M4ohn being shipped into the US, and no COA from Rizzer, I'll stick with DS and Custom, non of these weird reports coming from their products.

I don't have a horse in this race, if I did it would be Brodus, he gets high marks from me for general credibility of reasoning.
Click to expand...

I myself bet $2. on Sock Puppet to show.
 
BRODUS

Hey jah, nice to see you have asserted yourself as Ethical Manager for a board you just found.

Regurgitating? I did my own research, which is quite a bit more than you did when you couldn't figure out that M4OHN and MOHN were the same thing...now you're the expert? And now you know more than the beta testers and actual healthy subjects that got blood work done?

I'm glad you decided to share your immense knowledge with the board. We'll just pretend for a moment that you didn't know that M4OHN is a Dopamine agonist, that carb depletion effects neurotransmitters, and that long-term use of fat-soluble "nootropics" does as well...and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt for failing organic chemistry. Oh, and we'll overlook the fact that you don't seem to know that in all of the rest of us healthy subjects, M4OHN REDUCES JOINT PAIN AND STIFFNESS...but you see, even if we give you all of these handicaps, you still are guilty of immense statistical bias, by beliving one anamolous report that is not validated by anything, over the countless reports on this board
Click to expand...
You Brodus....seem to be the resident expert on GUESSING dosages for methylated steroids.

AND I NEVER PROCLAIMED TO BE AN EXPERT ON PH/PS....nor do I act like I am...UNLIKE YOU. I simply said..."we dont know **** about these new compounds" almost everything is speculation and guesstimation.
since you know so much about a relatively new compound...and you can tell me SO MUCH ABOUT M4OHN...with no long term studies..or scientific data. Why dont you tell me the correct dosages for M4OHN? wait...YOU DONT KNOW...you are the idiot who likes to guess. Since you like to let people think you know so much about steroids...why are you even taking PH's?

and what the hell are you talking about again? first tamox toxicity and Usnic Acid....now NOLVA again and atkins? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE? . OFF TOPIC ONCE AGAIN DR. BRODUS.

like someone else has already stated....why are you getting so offended when INFOHAZARD simply stated his opinion/views on M4OHN?.....you came off as a jackass.....and thats when I let everyone know that your Dr. Brodus. and everyone should take you as serious as a JOKE. you got out of line first......so I put you in your place.

and once again(FOR THE LAST TIME)...I never said i believed INFOHAZARDS claims to be 100% true

dont bother answering any of my questions....you will once again go off topic...and "copy and paste" some study you found that is IRRELVANT to the subject.

I am finished with you Dr. Brodus. I have proven my point that you dont know ****.
 
chasec said:
well, i ran it close to 40mg/QD and had no sides except this damn acne that won't go away on my shoulders.

back to the argument........
Click to expand...

You too? I was thinking my acne breakout the over the last week and a half was due to 5aa and the DHT it converts to. I started it and M4OHN at the same time so I couldn't be sure. I'm broke out on my chest, shoulders, neck, like I haven't been since I was 18.
 
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