Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow

[hardasnails1973]

After 3 weeks of 1x/week .6mL of 100mg Depo- T brand Tcyp and 300 iu of hcg 2x/week I got blood results that STILL puzzle me.

Get this- I went DOWN. Saw T of 133, although E dropped to under 32. Never had T that low, even before I started TRT. The lowest I ever saw was around 200.

Even Dr S was puzzled at this one. We speculated that the vial may be bad. Seems odd as I keep it @ room temp and in a cabinet. The extra low T certainly explains my diminished attitude, energy and increased feelings of being "down".

In any event, he now has me on a weekly shot of .5mL of 200mg depo-T (up from 100mg). HCG remains at 300iu 2x/week. Just took the shot yesterday, so it's too early to notice anything.

Any thoughts or ideas here? I admit to being stumped....

Bad batch or the thyroid spike the hell out of cortisol, Dr S never checks dhea and seems rarely concerned with it. My freinds DHEA was in the toilet but he focus on the testosterone instead, That one i never figured out.

 

[T800]

It's just a guess, but I think if that you take too little T, you end up suppressing hormone production without providing adequate replacement.

Sonny

 

[hardasnails1973]

It's just a guess, but I think if that you take too little T, you end up suppressing hormone production without providing adequate replacement.

Sonny

Similar to testosterone cream, You give your body just enough to tease it and to shut off your own..

 

[anyman]

Update: Started 200mg/mL T cyp. Not much difference, although one thing does help

As some may recall. I started 5mL of 100mg/mL per week of Tcyp and after actually seeing my T DROP to 120ish from 200 was told to go to 5mL of 200mg/mL Tcyp. This is in addition to 300iu of hcg 2x/week. The drop is all the more puzzling since I was using hcg all along. Weird.......

In any event, I still didn't feel all the better and was just told to do .4mL of 200mg Tcyp twice per week in addition to the hcg. Just started this the other day.

Rather oddly, I don't notice much if any difference. Still more often than not tired and mentally depressed/down for now apparent reason. No change in nocturnal erections, although I can function to a fair degree on occasion. Since the rest of my life is, knock on wood, going well enough I can only conclude that a continuing hormone/neurotransmitter issue is to blame. Still present is the odd tendency for my mood to improve noticeably as the evening progresses. By 10pm I can often feel pretty good, while at 10AM I can be quite down. My cortisol has been continuously high, which Dr S ascribes to low T. He believes that my Cortisol and so-so thyroid levels will improve when T comes up. Says it's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. I personally wouldn't mind investigating this a bit more, but will not go against his directions.

Just had blood drawn the other day and will get the results hopefully on Monday. Maybe E is too high. That would explain much.

There is one thing that does help is Ritalin. Yes, Ritalin. The same thing that was given to kids and which apparently helps adults in far different ways.

As I understand it, Ritalin helps dopamine, which I belive to be low based in prior neurotransmitter tests. I've been taking 5htp and l-theanine supplements for the last 3 months. If there are changes, I don't see them, at least not yet. If anyone can explain why and how Ritalin works while other things have not I am all ears. I'm at the point where I care less and less about the sexual aspects of this and merely want to get ird of the damned "blues" and fatigue. Damned annoying and gets in the way of life!

 

[anyman]

I have a theory as to why I didn't respond all that well to hcg alone

Since this is a totally seperate issue, I thought a seperate post was a good idea.

As some may recall, Dr S tried to jump start my testes by gradually going up to 1500iu 3x/week of hcg for a short time. That got my T all the way up to around 523-but with E of about 75 (!). And, I was only 43 at the time.

The logical conclusion was that my testes weren't working all that well in addition to being secondary as my very low FSH & LH readings would indicate. Could be both primary AND secondary?

"WHY??" came to mind. I have no history of drug/steriod use, no injuries and nothing else remarkable except a month's use of propecia about 8-9 years ago. I took paxil and wellbutrin a few years ago (both SSRIs) for what I now believe was the start of low T.

One theory is that the propecia and/or SSRIs made me secondary or otherwise helped it along. In the process, my testes didn't get enouogh FSH/LH and atropied to an extent.

A second theory is that I started to become primary for unknown reasons causing my brain to churn out more and more FSH/LH in an attempt to helo until it too burned out.

I have no idea if either of these theories makes any sense, but welcome people's thoughts and comments.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Since this is a totally seperate issue, I thought a seperate post was a good idea.

As some may recall, Dr S tried to jump start my testes by gradually going up to 1500iu 3x/week of hcg for a short time. That got my T all the way up to around 523-but with E of about 75 (!). And, I was only 43 at the time.

The logical conclusion was that my testes weren't working all that well in addition to being secondary as my very low FSH & LH readings would indicate. Could be both primary AND secondary?

"WHY??" came to mind. I have no history of drug/steriod use, no injuries and nothing else remarkable except a month's use of propecia about 8-9 years ago. I took paxil and wellbutrin a few years ago (both SSRIs) for what I now believe was the start of low T.

One theory is that the propecia and/or SSRIs made me secondary or otherwise helped it along. In the process, my testes didn't get enouogh FSH/LH and atropied to an extent.

A second theory is that I started to become primary for unknown reasons causing my brain to churn out more and more FSH/LH in an attempt to helo until it too burned out.

I have no idea if either of these theories makes any sense, but welcome people's thoughts and comments.

You want a simple explaination
PAxil and wellbutrin screw up your body's own balance mainly in the liver AKA methyation pathways are altered. Paxil can actually cause cancer because the way it alters the body methyation pathways. And when this pathway is alteref your cellular receptors are also changed and the lock and keys do notwork properly at the hormone receptor sites and then the cell basically cell destruct which is known as apotsis. When this happens arachodndonic acid is released from the cell membran causes huge silent cellular inflammation leading into the begining stages of pre cancer

 

[Diancecht]

As some may recall. I started 5mL of 100mg/mL per week of Tcyp and after actually seeing my T DROP to 120ish from 200 was told to go to 5mL of 200mg/mL Tcyp. This is in addition to 300iu of hcg 2x/week. The drop is all the more puzzling since I was using hcg all along. Weird.......

In any event, I still didn't feel all the better and was just told to do .4mL of 200mg Tcyp twice per week in addition to the hcg. Just started this the other day.

Rather oddly, I don't notice much if any difference. Still more often than not tired and mentally depressed/down for now apparent reason. No change in nocturnal erections, although I can function to a fair degree on occasion. Since the rest of my life is, knock on wood, going well enough I can only conclude that a continuing hormone/neurotransmitter issue is to blame. Still present is the odd tendency for my mood to improve noticeably as the evening progresses. By 10pm I can often feel pretty good, while at 10AM I can be quite down. My cortisol has been continuously high, which Dr S ascribes to low T. He believes that my Cortisol and so-so thyroid levels will improve when T comes up. Says it's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. I personally wouldn't mind investigating this a bit more, but will not go against his directions.

Just had blood drawn the other day and will get the results hopefully on Monday. Maybe E is too high. That would explain much.

There is one thing that does help is Ritalin. Yes, Ritalin. The same thing that was given to kids and which apparently helps adults in far different ways.

As I understand it, Ritalin helps dopamine, which I belive to be low based in prior neurotransmitter tests. I've been taking 5htp and l-theanine supplements for the last 3 months. If there are changes, I don't see them, at least not yet. If anyone can explain why and how Ritalin works while other things have not I am all ears. I'm at the point where I care less and less about the sexual aspects of this and merely want to get ird of the damned "blues" and fatigue. Damned annoying and gets in the way of life!

Am I reading this right? If you were taking 5ml of 200 test/cyp that would be 1000 mg per week. I am 240 lb and 180 mg per week puts me slightly over top of range. Did perhaps you mean .5 m. which then would be 100 mg per week which would make more sense.

If not then it is a head scratcher.

So several ideas which may or may not be applicable

Tests are not foolproof, in fact there is lots of extrinisc and intrinsic variables which will affect lab results. In other words if the tests dont fit the clinical picture consider repeating the test. Dont get caught in the classic chase the lab numbers!

As mentioned above earlier was the batch of test bad. Not common but anything can happen. Another vial from a seperate batch should clear that up.

Injection issues. Is the a problem with method or injection area that might be compromising the meds. Getting weekly shots from the doc for a month and then restesting might help sort that out.

Anyway just some random ideas you may or may not want to consider and discuss with your health care provider.

 

[anyman]

Thanks for the input. I did indeed mis-type. I often do that!

Allow me to clarify:

Am I reading this right? If you were taking 5ml of 200 test/cyp that would be 1000 mg per week. I am 240 lb and 180 mg per week puts me slightly over top of range. Did perhaps you mean .5 m. which then would be 100 mg per week which would make more sense.

Yes, I meant to type .5mL!

Tests are not foolproof, in fact there is lots of extrinisc and intrinsic variables which will affect lab results. In other words if the tests dont fit the clinical picture consider repeating the test. Dont get caught in the classic chase the lab numbers!

Agree. Dr Shippen has had me re-test, although my subjective feelings certainly supported the readings.

Injection issues. Is the a problem with method or injection area that might be compromising the meds. Getting weekly shots from the doc for a month and then restesting might help sort that out.

Dr S has his patients start with sub-q in the stomach. No issues there that I am aware of, at least not yet. There have been many debates here on the merits of sub-q vs. IM. I trust Dr. S and will stick with (pun intended) sub-q until he suggests otherwise

Anyway just some random ideas you may or may not want to consider and discuss with your health care provider.

Thanks. Much appreciated. I am increasingly convinced that I suffer from low Dopamine, as mild doses of Ritalin can help me quite a bit. Yields a "chicken and egg" question: What came first, low T or low Dopamine? Either way, I'd like to find a way to boost it on a more natural basis. I wonder about this stuff from Neuroscience: Invalid Link Removed

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions??

 

[JanSz]

Allow me to clarify:

Thanks. Much appreciated. I am increasingly convinced that I suffer from low Dopamine, as mild doses of Ritalin can help me quite a bit. Yields a "chicken and egg" question: What came first, low T or low Dopamine? Either way, I'd like to find a way to boost it on a more natural basis. I wonder about this stuff from Neuroscience: Invalid Link Removed

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions??

Check attachment #6 on my post #1 here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html

Similar test that you are talking about.
Instead of just Dopamine they worry about a bunch of neurotransmitters and their metabolites.
My test cost about $275, still waiting how much insurance will pick up.

They not only found problem, they also advice on solution.

But they do not sell the stuff like Neuroscience does, you may get it on your own, plus no extra charge for interpretation.
------------------------------------------------------------
So I am eating now suff such as below,
some of it comes with warning that if dose is not right it may cause or feed cancer.
I already have a sarcoma in my left thigh, lets hope Genova got it right.

L-phenylalanine 500-2000 mg/d
L-thyrosine 500-2000 mg/d
L-methionine 500-1000mg/d
Detoxification
Molybdenum 50-250 μg/d,
B2 5-50mg/d (riboflavin)
Vit B12 6-200 ug/d (0.5) ug=mcg=microgram
Folic Acid 400-2000 ug/d (0.7)
Lipoic Acid 25-200 mg/d (0.3)
Glutathione 250-1000 mg/d (0.9)

 

[anyman]

Another update: 8 weeks into this and notice no real change. I wonder why...

After reading a post from "Rugby Hooligan" that his shots kicked in, I began to wonder why mine havn't done a damned thing.

I started w/ .5m of 100mg T cyp a good 8 weeks ago and saw T actually DROP from a pre TRT level of 200 +/- to 129. WTF??!!?? Switched to .5ml of 200mg T cyp ad went all the way to 270 Woo-hoo!! (sarcasm intended...) I quite literally did better on Dr S's 25mg 7 day Clomid test. Went to 325 or so on that, which thus far is better than TRT.
Upped to .4mL 2x/week 2 weeks ago and still feel not much. Little morning wood, almost always fatigued and frequently mentally "down". Throughout this I do 300iu of hcg 2X/week.

What am I doing wrong? .4mL of 200mg Tcyp should be doing SOMETHING by now, shouldn't it?

Let me fill in the other supplements, etc to get a more complete picture:

Dr S added T3/4 thyroid support 2 weeks ago due to my consistently barely into the "normal range" results. I also take 5htp, l-theanine, ginsing and other vitamins, etc.

Estrogen is constantly under 32, so I cannot see that it may be an issue. It did go up to 75 when we tried 1500 units of hcg 3X/week for an attempted restart. Dropped back down thereafter. Cortisol is always high.

Any ideas?? What am I doing wrong? I would think that .4mL of 200mg T and hcg would have worked by now. Dr S thinks I may be a "fast metabolizer", hence the bump in dose and frequency. I admit to being increasingly frustrated and nervous over this whole thing.

 

[JanSz]

After reading a post from "Rugby Hooligan" that his shots kicked in, I began to wonder why mine havn't done a damned thing.

I started w/ .5m of 100mg T cyp a good 8 weeks ago and saw T actually DROP from a pre TRT level of 200 +/- to 129. WTF??!!?? Switched to .5ml of 200mg T cyp ad went all the way to 270 Woo-hoo!! (sarcasm intended...) I quite literally did better on Dr S's 25mg 7 day Clomid test. Went to 325 or so on that, which thus far is better than TRT.
Upped to .4mL 2x/week 2 weeks ago and still feel not much. Little morning wood, almost always fatigued and frequently mentally "down". Throughout this I do 300iu of hcg 2X/week.

What am I doing wrong? .4mL of 200mg Tcyp should be doing SOMETHING by now, shouldn't it?

Let me fill in the other supplements, etc to get a more complete picture:

Dr S added T3/4 thyroid support 2 weeks ago due to my consistently barely into the "normal range" results. I also take 5htp, l-theanine, ginsing and other vitamins, etc.

Estrogen is constantly under 32, so I cannot see that it may be an issue. It did go up to 75 when we tried 1500 units of hcg 3X/week for an attempted restart. Dropped back down thereafter. Cortisol is always high.

Any ideas?? What am I doing wrong? I would think that .4mL of 200mg T and hcg would have worked by now. Dr S thinks I may be a "fast metabolizer", hence the bump in dose and frequency. I admit to being increasingly frustrated and nervous over this whole thing.

Plenty of ideas. Problem is, you do not want to listen.

#1 you already know that your testosterone dose is way to low, not even close to the correct dose. Tell me your SHBG I will give you better approximate dose.
Do not argue, use E2D schedule, you may change it to less often schedule after you happy with everything else.
Drop it, and forget about Clomid.
Use T + Liquidex on Day #1
and
380iu HCG on day #2
====================================================
#2 Use Armour Thyroid only, get your freeT3 to the top range
=====================================================
#3 do at least this three tests at Quest
FreeT3
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

FreeT3 to be on top
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
BAT~575
=====================================================
#4 do not use
5htp, l-theanine, ginsing

you may actually need them but it is fat chance.
Do first tests that will tell you what supplements of this type you actually need.

NutriEval
EstroEssence
====================================================

 

[T800]

anyman: Just to clarify, 2x per week, you're using .4 mL of the 100mg/mL or the 200mg/mL preparation?

2x per week of 100mg/mL = 80mg/week (usually not enough for most men)
2x per week of 200mg/mL = 160mg/week (usually too much for most men)

What are you taking for your thyroid?

Sonny

 

[ItalStallion]

Quick Question for any body with Hypogonadism

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

 

[JanSz]

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

Do my blood list at Quest
also
NutriEval
and
Estroessence
at Genova Diagnostics.

More details at my post #40

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html
======================================

No guarantiies, but

The other options are real slow and provide very little information on how your body works where is defficient.

 

[Diancecht]

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

In my opinion one of the problems of testosterone lab evals are the very large ranges of what is normal. There is some evidence that individuals vary as to how much test they need. For one person it may be an average of 400, another may be 700 etc,etc. So after rulihg out other causes of your symptoms perhaps a short trial of test may be indicated. Howver dont assume it a testosterone issue. There are other medical causes.

 

[anyman]

I take .4mL of the 200mg/mL T cyp--which is why I am puzzled.

anyman: Just to clarify, 2x per week, you're using .4 mL of the 100mg/mL or the 200mg/mL preparation?

2x per week of 100mg/mL = 80mg/week (usually not enough for most men)
2x per week of 200mg/mL = 160mg/week (usually too much for most men)

What are you taking for your thyroid?

Sonny

The total is thus 160mg/week, which SHOULD be enough, if not too much. But, here I am at that level still not feeling all that great. Dr Shippen will likely re-adjust after the next blood work. I inject sub q in the belly w/a 25ga 5/8" needle.

As for Thyroid, he has me taking a compounded T3 & T4 pill. I am not familiar with it.

With this level of T and a las known E of below 32 why do I not feel all that much better? I must be missing something.....

 

[ItalStallion]

In my opinion one of the problems of testosterone lab evals are the very large ranges of what is normal. There is some evidence that individuals vary as to how much test they need. For one person it may be an average of 400, another may be 700 etc,etc. So after rulihg out other causes of your symptoms perhaps a short trial of test may be indicated. Howver dont assume it a testosterone issue. There are other medical causes.

I agree about the very large reference range that they use. There should be different ranges based on what age group you are in?
I have had other tests done to rule out anemia, infections, STDs, and Thyroid problems. But I can't get MDs to order me more tests past the Total Test because I happen to be in the low normal range. I've wasted the best years of my life, trying to find a cure for some sort of weird anxiety disorder that they says I have. They make you think that you are going crazy and that everything is because of your mind. I will agree that the mind has a great deal of influence over you body. But I do also believe the opposite is true. It's like what came first? The chicken or the egg.

Thank you to everyone who replies to me. It means alot. I'm struggling to make it through and working my ass off on the treadmill, watching my diet. Quit smoking cigarettes about 7 months ago. Still not feeling better.

Another question, which doctor is better equipped to make such a diagnosis, an endocrinologist or a urologist?

 

[anyman]

Actually, I do want to listen. I take the suggestions to Dr S.

If I didn't want to listen I wouldn't be here now. However, as a paying patient of Dr. S i am unwilling to outright disobey his instructions. He is open to suggestions, hence the thyroid treatment, but is not that keen on his patients going off on their own tangents. I take what I learn here and discuss it with him during a consult.

This said, let me answer you:

Plenty of ideas. Problem is, you do not want to listen.

#1 you already know that your testosterone dose is way to low, not even close to the correct dose. Tell me your SHBG I will give you better approximate dose.

How is 160mg/week too low? In any event my SHBG is always low-around 12

Do not argue, use E2D schedule, you may change it to less often schedule after you happy with everything else.
Drop it, and forget about Clomid.

Dr S has me on the 2x/week schedule for both T and hcg. I will bring my a more frequent schedule when I talk to him


Use T + Liquidex on Day #1
and
380iu HCG on day #2
====================================================
#2 Use Armour Thyroid only, get your freeT3 to the top range
=====================================================
#3 do at least this three tests at Quest
FreeT3
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

I will mention the above to him. Don't know what kind of thyroid he had compounded, but it says for T3 and T4

FreeT3 to be on top
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
BAT~575
=====================================================
#4 do not use
5htp, l-theanine, ginsing

you may actually need them but it is fat chance.
Do first tests that will tell you what supplements of this type you actually need.

I had the "NeuroScience" tests referred by Dr S and have VERY low serotonin and dopamine. He suggested these products

NutriEval
EstroEssence
====================================================

So far, the only thing that helps me disposition/energy level is, of all things, Ritalin! Can't believe it, but that's how it is. I use it sparingly.

 

[JanSz]

In my opinion one of the problems of testosterone lab evals are the very large ranges of what is normal. There is some evidence that individuals vary as to how much test they need. For one person it may be an average of 400, another may be 700 etc,etc. So after rulihg out other causes of your symptoms perhaps a short trial of test may be indicated. Howver dont assume it a testosterone issue. There are other medical causes.

Diancecht
IIRC you are MD.

We or at least I am of opinion that doing Totoal Testosterone test is of little value if it is the only test done to asses testosterone level in the body.

We see 95% or more people sentenced to slow dying because they are within range.

How to convince doctors to do better testing?
In my view better would be
TT and SHBG and then hand calculate FreeT

or the one and only test at Quest that does that calculation within their test.

Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

I did not even started on a Estrogen management.

----------------------------------------------------

I am a casuality of such a poor testing.

I have beed tested by Sexual Health director at prominent hospital in Manhattan.

5 years ago hi told me to pack my bags, I had seen my last intercouse.

I had probably a thousand intercouses since, thank but no thanks to somebody who treats thousands of very poor men.
Just had another one half an hour ago, still feeling good.
I am 67yo, little tired, because last night I danced 3.5 hours non stop.

 

[dcguy4u]

Diancecht
IIRC you are MD.

We or at least I am of opinion that doing Totoal Testosterone test is of little value if it is the only test done to asses testosterone level in the body.

We see 95% or more people sentenced to slow dying because they are within range.

How to convince doctors to do better testing?
In my view better would be
TT and SHBG and then hand calculate FreeT

or the one and only test at Quest that does that calculation within their test.

Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

I did not even started on a Estrogen management.

----------------------------------------------------

I am a casuality of such a poor testing.

I have beed tested by Sexual Health director at prominent hospital in Manhattan.

5 years ago hi told me to pack my bags, I had seen my last intercouse.

I had probably a thousand intercouses since, thank but no thanks to somebody who treats thousands of very poor men.
Just had another one half an hour ago, still feeling good.
I am 67yo, little tired, because last night I danced 3.5 hours non stop.

LOL
JanSz,
You da man !!!

 

[hardasnails1973]

If I didn't want to listen I wouldn't be here now. However, as a paying patient of Dr. S i am unwilling to outright disobey his instructions. He is open to suggestions, hence the thyroid treatment, but is not that keen on his patients going off on their own tangents. I take what I learn here and discuss it with him during a consult.

This said, let me answer you:




So far, the only thing that helps me disposition/energy level is, of all things, Ritalin! Can't believe it, but that's how it is. I use it sparingly.

HMM ritalin is for ADDHD and what causes that hypoglycmeia.
Have you ever been check via glucose tolerance test to rule this out ? So instead of T replacement look for the cause or to inconjuction with the TRT. Metformin would be were I be looking at big time in glucose tolerance test came back posttive..

 

[JanSz]

HMM ritalin is for ADDHD and what causes that hypoglycmeia.
Have you ever been check via glucose tolerance test to rule this out ? So instead of T replacement look for the cause or to inconjuction with the TRT. Metformin would be were I be looking at big time in glucose tolerance test came back posttive..

Metformin and B12

Invalid Link Removed
=========================
Before you know it, you are in Genova

NutriEval

teritory.

 

[anyman]

Interesting you should mention a glucose test

HMM ritalin is for ADDHD and what causes that hypoglycmeia.
Have you ever been check via glucose tolerance test to rule this out ? So instead of T replacement look for the cause or to inconjuction with the TRT. Metformin would be were I be looking at big time in glucose tolerance test came back posttive..

When I saw a specialist @ Mass General she suggested one. I've been putting it off. This particular doctor has published somewhat extensively and has noted various studies linking insulin resistance to lower T. Dr S was of the opinion that such would get better if T were higher. Kind of a chicken and egg thing. Either way, such runs in the family. My mother has blood sugar/pressure issues.

I contacted my local primary Dr., who is sending me a scrip for one. Should be fun.....

 

[wondering]

please ask your question in a separate post to avoid hijacking this gentlemans post.

We will all get better responses and easier for all to follow.

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

 

[wondering]

amazing you took 160mg a week and only went to 120 total T. Amazing.. have to wonder if you have that 1 in a million vial that is no good. Never heard anyone takign that much and having level of 120

Agree with this gentleman that this forum should be used as a source for us to "sponge up" info from the experiences of others to build a bank of knowledge to be able to ask good questions and ultimatley find a good doctor. Let's be careful that we think we have all the answers.

If I didn't want to listen I wouldn't be here now. However, as a paying patient of Dr. S i am unwilling to outright disobey his instructions. He is open to suggestions, hence the thyroid treatment, but is not that keen on his patients going off on their own tangents. I take what I learn here and discuss it with him during a consult.

This said, let me answer you:




So far, the only thing that helps me disposition/energy level is, of all things, Ritalin! Can't believe it, but that's how it is. I use it sparingly.

 

[hardasnails1973]

amazing you took 160mg a week and only went to 120 total T. Amazing.. have to wonder if you have that 1 in a million vial that is no good. Never heard anyone takign that much and having level of 120

Agree with this gentleman that this forum should be used as a source for us to "sponge up" info from the experiences of others to build a bank of knowledge to be able to ask good questions and ultimatley find a good doctor. Let's be careful that we think we have all the answers.

I am currently working with 2 of dr shippens patients right now trying to work on there nutrutional aspect. One of them went to another dr and is making incredible progress and hes covered by insurance. We just had to fudge the test resuts so he could prescibe him armidex, but i think it worked. i am waiting for test results to come back. He e2 was 46 but tt was only 553 on 100 mgs a week. So I we use his herpes as a gauge for e2. Once his e2 gets abouve 50 his herpes comes out like never before. So i told him to double his valted drink white wine every night and then to take 250 ius hcg 3 days before the test with 100 mgs DHEA. I bet you his e2 is about 90 !! The guy went through hell, but I gave him 1 mgs of liquidex and told him to pull back on dhea to 50 mgs a day.

 

[anyman]

Actually, I was only on 100mg of T when I went down to 122. And- I may have erred.

amazing you took 160mg a week and only went to 120 total T. Amazing.. have to wonder if you have that 1 in a million vial that is no good. Never heard anyone takign that much and having level of 120

I am not sure--and it is rather embarrassing to admit, but I may have been under filling the syringes. It is possible my balls weren't the only to thing to go once I hit 40+ My eyes may have fooled me into thinking I have more in than I did. I cannot be sure, but I have been watching much more closely and am more aware of the thick viscosity and the time it takes to fill a syringe with T cyp. Kinda embarrassing if true, as I am rather mechanically inclined, but I'll admit it here to help others. My greater scrutiny may explain why I havn't been dragging as much over the last day or two. Hmmmmm....

 

[JanSz]

I am not sure--and it is rather embarrassing to admit, but I may have been under filling the syringes. It is possible my balls weren't the only to thing to go once I hit 40+ My eyes may have fooled me into thinking I have more in than I did. I cannot be sure, but I have been watching much more closely and am more aware of the thick viscosity and the time it takes to fill a syringe with T cyp. Kinda embarrassing if true, as I am rather mechanically inclined, but I'll admit it here to help others. My greater scrutiny may explain why I havn't been dragging as much over the last day or two. Hmmmmm....

I still have to see somebody who newer made any mistakes.

Just start over from scratch.

Speakig of testosterone,
what is your SHBG?
what density testosterone you have,
usually they come as 200mg/mL
but once in a while there are other densities,
other most commons, 100mg/mL, that is a half of the strenght of the 200 one.

Find thise two values, then go to table on my post #40
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

and find you approximate initial dose.
Do not argue, use E2D schedule
and 31ga needle
insuline needle, any size of syringe is marked with units
100units =1cc=1mL

wish you luck

 

[anyman]

I do notice a difference since I've been watching the syringe

I appear to have misjudged just how viscous the T cyp is and may have confused the initial "wetting" of the sides of the syringe with it being filled. Rather odd, since I am rather mechanically inclined. I can rebuild an entire old motorcycle and gut/remodel a kitchen but I apparently can't read a damned syringe.

I feel noticeably better now that I have been more carefully watching it. Don't know what's worse- admitting I may have erred or realizing that I shall be henceforth dependent on this stuff. I always fear what might happen if I am in a situation where I can't get meds or they become in short supply. If the proverbial **** hit the fan and I was in a place or situation where I didn't just happen to have a whole pharmacy either with me or available I'd be screwed. I always prided myself on doing what needs to be done no matter what. This affliction may make that impossible. At least we live in an era when meds are available. I know you see this differently than I do, but the thought of another 30-40 years of dealing with BS shots and constant blood work is less than inspiring. I just want to live my life unencumbered by nonsense. In any event, let me answer your questions.

I still have to see somebody who newer made any mistakes.

Thanks. Everybody does make mistakes. I just hate to

Just start over from scratch.

That is what I did

Speakig of testosterone,
what is your SHBG?

SHB is consistently around 12
what density testosterone you have,
usually they come as 200mg/mL
but once in a while there are other densities,
other most commons, 100mg/mL, that is a half of the strenght of the 200 one.

I now have 200mg strength and just started .4mL 2x/week per Dr S. HCG is 300 units 2x/wk as well. .4mL 2x/week totals 160mg and may be too much as I recall your chart suggesting 120 or so. FYI- I am 6' and about 212lbs. I exercise regularly and generally eat well. This is why I am rather bitter about this. I exercise, eat well and take care of myself, yet end up with what I call "acquired eunuch syndrome". Maybe I should have drank beer, taken steroids and watched TV all day. :lol:

Find thise two values, then go to table on my post #40
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

and find you approximate initial dose.
Do not argue, use E2D schedule
and 31ga needle

wish you luck

Thanks. I find the support and shared experiences here invaluable, especially from guys like yourself. I never would have learned 5% of what I have but for forums like this , nr would I have heard of and treated with Dr S.

 

[JanSz]

I appear to have misjudged just how viscous the T cyp is and may have confused the initial "wetting" of the sides of the syringe with it being filled. Rather odd, since I am rather mechanically inclined. I can rebuild an entire old motorcycle and gut/remodel a kitchen but I apparently can't read a damned syringe.

I feel noticeably better now that I have been more carefully watching it. Don't know what's worse- admitting I may have erred or realizing that I shall be henceforth dependent on this stuff. I always fear what might happen if I am in a situation where I can't get meds or they become in short supply. If the proverbial **** hit the fan and I was in a place or situation where I didn't just happen to have a whole pharmacy either with me or available I'd be screwed. I always prided myself on doing what needs to be done no matter what. This affliction may make that impossible. At least we live in an era when meds are available. I know you see this differently than I do, but the thought of another 30-40 years of dealing with BS shots and constant blood work is less than inspiring. I just want to live my life unencumbered by nonsense. In any event, let me answer your questions.

After New Year you can start working my kitchen.

I do not see it much more differently than you do.
Just playing the odds.
I am retired for many years now.
Guess why I am still living close to cross section of major highways and relatively close to major medical facilities.
Drive large cars.

My wife used to dream about a horse farm in sticks.

 

[Diancecht]

I have some suggestions that may or may not help:
First of all if you are going to take 1cc of test fill the syringe with at least 1cc of air. Then inject the air into the vial. This prevents a vacuum build up in the vial which can slow the filling process.

Then overfill the syringe ( eg. if needing a one cc of test, fill the syringe with 1 and 1/2 cc of test) Keeping the needle in the syringe push the plunger back up intill only 1cc is left in the syringe. Then withdraw the needle from the syringe. Then change needles and proceed to delivering the injection.

Also if you are an old fart like me, you might need some reading glasses to read visual the syringe markings and test levels well.

Always wipe the top of the syringe with alcohol before drawing from the vial. Then use a seperate alchohol swab to clean the skin.

Make sure the uncapped needles do not touch anything other than the vial or your preprepped skin prior to injection.

Dont be embarrassed about mistakes, I could tell you legions of stories of mistakes that other providers and myself have made learning these procedures.

I would expect your Dr. or his nurse would be glad to walk you through the procedure to make sure you have it all down pat. THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!

Good luck.

 

[anyman]

Thanks for the suggestions. Learned a bit.

Thought I had done most of the list, but apparently not entirely. I did inject air, but did not overfill. Seems the "wet" sides of the syringe tricked me into thinking it was filled. I had to hold it up to a light to see that it was only just starting to fill and would take some time due to the viscosity. I erroneously assumed that T would flow in the same manner as hcg.

Good suggestions on hygiene. Hadn't thought to wipe the needle as well, if I read your post correctly. My Dr (Shippen) is a good 4 hours away, so there is an element of DIY going on. I'm still embarrassed. I have a professional degree and am mechanically inclined, yet cannot read a damned syringe! I won't make the same mistake twice.

Curious- How do you and your patients get around the PO'd at dependence issue I have? Or, am I one of the few stupid enough to complain about it? This whole issue has got me thinking about many things, including the human spirit/soul, assuming there is such a thing. More specifically, I have begun to wonder how much of me is "me" and how much is merely the end result of random-and easily fouled up- chemical reactions over which I have little or no control? My personality, energy level and even will to live are all drastically affected by low T. Am I "me" or merely a result of whatever hormonal levels my body can produce? Is a person one might think to be less than nice or preoccupied a "bad" person as generations pst might have thought or might said person merely have a medical issue?

I have some suggestions that may or may not help:
First of all if you are going to take 1cc of test fill the syringe with at least 1cc of air. Then inject the air into the vial. This prevents a vacuum build up in the vial which can slow the filling process.

Then overfill the syringe ( eg. if needing a one cc of test, fill the syringe with 1 and 1/2 cc of test) Keeping the needle in the syringe push the plunger back up intill only 1cc is left in the syringe. Then withdraw the needle from the syringe. Then change needles and proceed to delivering the injection.

Also if you are an old fart like me, you might need some reading glasses to read visual the syringe markings and test levels well.

Always wipe the top of the syringe with alcohol before drawing from the vial. Then use a seperate alchohol swab to clean the skin.

Make sure the uncapped needles do not touch anything other than the vial or your preprepped skin prior to injection.

Dont be embarrassed about mistakes, I could tell you legions of stories of mistakes that other providers and myself have made learning these procedures.

I would expect your Dr. or his nurse would be glad to walk you through the procedure to make sure you have it all down pat. THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!

Good luck.

 

[cpeil2]

Hadn't thought to wipe the needle as well, if I read your post correctly.

Do not wipe the needle. The instructions were to not let the needle touch anything but the stopper of the multi-use vial, and your disinfected skin.

 

[Diancecht]

Thought I had done most of the list, but apparently not entirely. I did inject air, but did not overfill. Seems the "wet" sides of the syringe tricked me into thinking it was filled. I had to hold it up to a light to see that it was only just starting to fill and would take some time due to the viscosity. I erroneously assumed that T would flow in the same manner as hcg.

Good suggestions on hygiene. Hadn't thought to wipe the needle as well, if I read your post correctly. My Dr (Shippen) is a good 4 hours away, so there is an element of DIY going on. I'm still embarrassed. I have a professional degree and am mechanically inclined, yet cannot read a damned syringe! I won't make the same mistake twice.

Curious- How do you and your patients get around the PO'd at dependence issue I have? Or, am I one of the few stupid enough to complain about it? This whole issue has got me thinking about many things, including the human spirit/soul, assuming there is such a thing. More specifically, I have begun to wonder how much of me is "me" and how much is merely the end result of random-and easily fouled up- chemical reactions over which I have little or no control? My personality, energy level and even will to live are all drastically affected by low T. Am I "me" or merely a result of whatever hormonal levels my body can produce? Is a person one might think to be less than nice or preoccupied a "bad" person as generations pst might have thought or might said person merely have a medical issue?

I dont wipe the needle. It should be sterile. Just dont let it touch anything other than your pre-swabbed skin or the pre-swabbed vial. Use a bigger needle for the draw. Change needles and use a smaller gauge needle for the injection.

Frankly probably a majority of the population has dependency on one medical device or the other as you age. It can be glasses,injectable meds like test and insulin, oral meds such as for BP, depression, thryoid, etc. We are all human and have our weakness from an emotional standpoint and so do our bodies. Its a part of our humanity. Welcome to the human race! :thumbsup:

 

[anyman]

UPDATE: After a few weeks on 160mg of T per week plus hcg. A little better.

Well, now that I realized I was indeed loading the syringe wrong (wow-was that ever dumb...) I have been on 160mg of T cyp per week for the last 4 weeks or so broken down into 80mg (.4mL of 200mg/mL) twice per week. HCG is added in at 300units 2x/week. Additional meds include a compounded T3/4 supplement and various 5htp, etc supplements.

First blood work drawn only 1-11/2 wks into it saw a rise to 427. E was still under 32. More blood was drawn the other day and I await more detailed results.

So far, I feel a bit better, but not any thing like I was hoping for. Occasional bouts of depression have been replaced by a more present than not malaise and lessened, but still persistent fatigue. So far, the only product guaranteed to help is, of all things, Ritalin. Yes, Ritalin. In low doses it can do wonders and greatly improves mood and energy. Weird.

Not sure what else to look at. I keep reading of others feeling amazing when they start TRT and wonder why I haven't got there yet.

 

[MarkLA]

FYI: If you did not double-up on the first dose, it will take about a month for you to hit a steady-state level... 160 is a pretty decent dose. In my non-expert opinion, I think you'll end up quite a bit higher once you hit steady-state. I'm curious to see what your new bloodwork shows.

I'm on 100mg/week and while I feel OK, I think I am still low. Tests will tell, but I don't go for them until two more weeks and won't have the results until almost a month from now. (Damn ultrasensitive estradiol takes Quest 10 days to analyze and report)

Mark

 

[Diancecht]

A couple of ideas for you to discuss with your doc.

First individual response to testostone is variable. You may need a higher testosterone level to feel better. Also what is your free testosterone. It may take several months to get the full effect of the testosterone. Not everyone gets an immediate response. Discuss with your doc.

Secondly unless you are taking Ritalin for what is was approved (ie. ADD etc) you might just consider stopping. In essence Ritalin is a stimulant like methamphetamine just not as potent. However long term use can result in symptoms of decreased mood, energy etc during withdrawal of the med. Your neurotransmiiters maybe be depleted with the long term use. At first you may feel worse stopping the Ritalin but later will feel better naturally.
Discuss with your doc and gets agreement however before you stop!

Good luck and have a happy new year.

 

[anyman]

Thank you, Diancecht. My intellect says "be patient", but the rest of me is tired.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated. Allow me to respond.

First individual response to testostone is variable. You may need a higher testosterone level to feel better. Also what is your free testosterone. It may take several months to get the full effect of the testosterone. Not everyone gets an immediate response. Discuss with your doc.

Good point. I recall from Jan's postings that it took him 9 months for his depression to lift. As for free T, Dr Shippen has not yet focused on it. This puzzles me as he is well regarded in this field. I will discuss with him during our next consult, which is in another 3 weeks or so. I may know more when I get the results from last Wed's blood draw.

Secondly unless you are taking Ritalin for what is was approved (ie. ADD etc) you might just consider stopping. In essence Ritalin is a stimulant like methamphetamine just not as potent. However long term use can result in symptoms of decreased mood, energy etc during withdrawal of the med. Your neurotransmiiters maybe be depleted with the long term use. At first you may feel worse stopping the Ritalin but later will feel better naturally.
Discuss with your doc and gets agreement however before you stop!


Interesting-and a good warning to heed. I thought Ritalin was safer than that based on my admittedly limited Google research. I use it rather sparingly- a few times per week at the most and at half the recommended dose. I find it calms me and, more importantly, lifts the veil of nasty/cranky attitude that all too easily permeates me as of late. Makes me much more patient with my kids--and the father they deserve.

Your point on the neurotransmitters is also well taken. I had them tested by "Neuroscience" over the summer. Both serotonin and dopamine were exceedingly low. I've been taking 5htp, l-theanine and now dopamine support supplements, but have no noticed anything different. AFAIK, Ritalin works on dopamine levels. How else can I get them up?

Good luck and have a happy new year.

Thank you--and the same to you and your family!

 

[Diancecht]

In addition to supplements make sure you have a well balanced healthy diet

Another factor would be exercise. Its known to work fairly well at helping cope with and in some cases get thru their depression. The key here is regularity. What type of weekly exercise program do you follow? Of course the problem here is if you are depressed you dont feel like exercising. However if you start out slow and be consistant most people can get a good program going.

 

[anyman]

Thanks again, Diancecht, Here is my answer.

Again, I appreciate the time. Here ya go--

In addition to supplements make sure you have a well balanced healthy diet

I generally eat well. balanced meals, good protein intake and an occasional "Designed whey" protein shake

Another factor would be exercise. Its known to work fairly well at helping cope with and in some cases get thru their depression. The key here is regularity. What type of weekly exercise program do you follow? Of course the problem here is if you are depressed you dont feel like exercising.

I exercise regularly, no matter how I feel, although on my "worst" days it can be a struggle. It can help somewhat, but is no panacea. I usually lift weights 4-5 days per week and do some cardio 2-3 of those days as well. Just came from the gym now. Did shoulders (3-4 exercises with 3 sets each) and 30 mins on the elliptical at a good clip. I'm actually in decent, but not perfect, shape for a guy in his mid 40s. I'm 6' and about 210lbs. I am increasingly convinced that my issues arise from continued chemical issues, since depression and irritability were not something I experienced prior to a few years ago. I want to be a better father and not so easily annoyed by my kids. They deserve better. When I do take the Ritalin I become the person I am inside and want to be. Calmer, not PO'd at everything, no sense of wanting to just crawl into a hole and at peace. It'd be easy to take that stuff every day, but I limit it to infrequently. The last was xmas day, when the family came over. Half a tablet made a big difference, even though I cursed my weakness for relying on it. Couldn't ignore the hard real world changes, however.....

 

[Diancecht]

Again, I appreciate the time. Here ya go--

You certainly have a good work program! Although I doubt much liklihood is present are you having any symptoms of overtraining such as muscles staying tired and stiff, frequent injuries, sense of well being after laying off the program or greatly reducing it for a week or so.

The program I follow usually mandates about 1 week about every 3 months to reduce the liklihood of overtraining.

Regarding the Ritalin it may be ok to use just check with your doc. What you dont want to do is yo yo the med. In other words use it consistantly or not at all if possible. But again check this with your doc.

I am just an aging trauma doc who is learning about this HRT stuff myself so take it with a big grain of salt.!!:cheers:

Bye the way I am 6ft with a mesomorphic build and I need about 200 mg per week to get to where I want to be with the Testosterone levels (about 1000)

 

[anyman]

UPDATE: Interesting blood results after one month + on Tcyp

Now that I've gotten some one month blood results I see some and feel some improvements, but am still puzzled. Been on 160mg/week of T cyp for about a 4+ weeks in addition to 2x/week hcg. Not quite what I expected at that dose. Here is what I got:

Total T: 566 (241-827 scale)
DHEAS: 247 (45-345 scale)
Estradiol: <32 (<52)
SHBG 11 (9-45)
Cortisol: 22.2 (AM ref 4-22)
DHT: ----- (pending)

This is weird. 160 mg/week of T sure seems like alot, yet all I see is 566? Plus, Cortisol is STILL high. My gut tells me that the consistently elevated Cortisol plays a factor in all of this, but my research isn't giving me a clear cut way to reduce it. My weight is good and I exercise. My Thyroid levels were a bit low, so Dr S has me on a T3/4 supplement plus topical selegiline.


Any thoughts or ideas? I do feel a bit better, but still prone to fatigue on a slightly lesser amount and a sense of malaise, although not as bad. Seems a higher dose may be in order. I hear that some guys need 200mg/week just to feel "OK". Perhaps I am one of them.

I will be asking Dr S why we aren't testing for Free T and await the DHT results. Might explain much is still way too low as has historically been the case.

 

[JanSz]

Now that I've gotten some one month blood results I see some and feel some improvements, but am still puzzled. Been on 160mg/week of T cyp for about a 4+ weeks in addition to 2x/week hcg. Not quite what I expected at that dose. Here is what I got:

Total T: 566 (241-827 scale)
DHEAS: 247 (45-345 scale)
Estradiol: <32 (<52)
SHBG 11 (9-45)
Cortisol: 22.2 (AM ref 4-22)
DHT: ----- (pending)

This is weird. 160 mg/week of T sure seems like alot, yet all I see is 566? Plus, Cortisol is STILL high. My gut tells me that the consistently elevated Cortisol plays a factor in all of this, but my research isn't giving me a clear cut way to reduce it. My weight is good and I exercise. My Thyroid levels were a bit low, so Dr S has me on a T3/4 supplement plus topical selegiline.


Any thoughts or ideas? I do feel a bit better, but still prone to fatigue on a slightly lesser amount and a sense of malaise, although not as bad. Seems a higher dose may be in order. I hear that some guys need 200mg/week just to feel "OK". Perhaps I am one of them.

I will be asking Dr S why we aren't testing for Free T and await the DHT results. Might explain much is still way too low as has historically been the case.

Your SHBG=11

You should need just 115mg/week
115 861 10.8 300 20.7 250
120 889 xx13 300 xx23 250

What is your injections schedule.
Change it to

(T + Liquidex) one day

(380iu hcg) the next day

draw blood on day of the shot, time of the shot, befor shot.

do these two tests, so you can get control of T & E2

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

goal

FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)
BAT~575
=============================================

Anyman,
forgive me, sorry for asking,
but we already had a case of injecting air instead of actual testosterone.

Get better eye glases.
Have your wife do the shots.
Make dam sure that you are actually getting in what you are planning.

=========================================

 

[OldGator]

Anyman - I'm glad your test came back and your #'s are better.
Per your (our) Dr.'s chart, it shows that your Free T is approx 200 pg/ml. That is well within normal range (per Dr. S's chart) so I'm surprised your aren't feeling alot better.
My Total T at my last test was almost identical to yours (599) but because my SHBG is up at 40 (yours is 11), my Free T calculates out at only 100. Wish I could get my SHBG lower! Was yours always low? I started out at 57!!

 

[anyman]

Thaks, jan, but I am not 99.9 percent certain the injection is right (m)

Your SHBG=11

You should need just 115mg/week
115 861 10.8 300 20.7 250
120 889 xx13 300 xx23 250

What is your injections schedule.

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)


FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)
BAT~575
=============================================

Anyman,
forgive me, sorry for asking,
but we already had a case of injecting air instead of actual testosterone.

Get better eye glases.
Have your wife do the shots.
Make dam sure that you are actually getting in what you are planning.

=========================================

I am now virtually certain the amounts are correct. For 200mg/mL I use a 1mL syringe and fill to .4, which I triple verify and had my wife check.

Dr S has me injecting .4mL on Th and Sun PM. HCG (300i) is done Wed and Sat Pm. I am already injecting 4x/week, which I know Dr J has said is too often for most. He generally does T 1x/week.

Could Estrogen be an issue? It's still under 32.

I am indeed puzzled. Dr S mentioned to me that some people are "fast metabolizers" who need more and more often. Says it is not common, but it can happen. I still await the DHT, which takes Quest at least 10-14 days to get to me. It has always been under range. I suspect that and the high cortisol are possibilities.

 

[anyman]

Thanks, Oldgator, I am indeed puzzled (m)

Anyman - I'm glad your test came back and your #'s are better.
Per your (our) Dr.'s chart, it shows that your Free T is approx 200 pg/ml. That is well within normal range (per Dr. S's chart) so I'm surprised your aren't feeling alot better.
My Total T at my last test was almost identical to yours (599) but because my SHBG is up at 40 (yours is 11), my Free T calculates out at only 100. Wish I could get my SHBG lower! Was yours always low? I started out at 57!!

My SHBG has always been this low, at least since I started measuring it. I am feeling somewhat better, but not what I expected for doses this high. My next consult with Dr S is 1/30. I'll be away from 1/19-1/27 and will have to see how well the airline allows me to travel with hcg and T. Oughta be interesting......

 

[JanSz]

I am now virtually certain the amounts are correct. For 200mg/mL I use a 1mL syringe and fill to .4, which I triple verify and had my wife check.

Dr S has me injecting .4mL on Th and Sun PM. HCG (300i) is done Wed and Sat Pm. I am already injecting 4x/week, which I know Dr J has said is too often for most. He generally does T 1x/week.

Could Estrogen be an issue? It's still under 32.

I am indeed puzzled. Dr S mentioned to me that some people are "fast metabolizers" who need more and more often. Says it is not common, but it can happen. I still await the DHT, which takes Quest at least 10-14 days to get to me. It has always been under range. I suspect that and the high cortisol are possibilities.

OldGator is right, your FreeT should be around 200 per dr Shippen's chart, mean that you should feel better.

Most likely your estrogen is the culprit.

I would still feel more assured if you did the T and E2 that I posted, and observed FreeE2 and BAT.

I do not know about fast metabolizers, something is not right, your TotalT should be a sky high not a half of what you are posting.

It should be around 1115
160 1115 28.4 300 xx40 250
give or take a little for fast metabolizers.

Look within dr Marianco's post.
He recomends frequent injections, specially for very low SHBG's as you have.

I really suggest that you do the T & E tests that I recomend, on a schedule that I recomend.

With your SHBG=11

do 120mg/week
possibly start another vial of testosterone.
The one you have may be suspect.
Get original Depo-Testosterone made by
Pharmacia & Upjohn Co.

break you dose into E2D schedule.
that is do shots every day.
do 380iu HCG in between T shots.

Get better glasses, and have wife watching you.
=================

Use 31Ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc syringe
for either T or HCG shots.

after you think you have syringe filled, pull another 5 units,
wait another two three minutes holding vial with needle in it.
There are tiny bubles in the oil, they need time to travel up.
Then get rid of those bubbles, sometimes not easy.
Yo did not even knew that they existed when you have used large syringe.

You are not going to see these tiny bubles if you are using larger syringe, you are going to shoot air no matter how much you swear that you do not.

In attachment, look how I hold vial with needle in it.

The other picture is so you can see how original Depo-T looks like.
Forget the syringes on the picture, I am using smaller, 3/10cc, better visibility.
==========================================================
You E2 is high.
Get Liquidex, precise dosing is the key.
Get proper E2 test so you are not working half blidfolded.

 

[anyman]

Thanks again, Jan. Allow me to clarify/respond:

I agree- I should be feeling better. Just came from the gym and wow, was I dragging. Here we go:

OldGator is right, your FreeT should be around 200 per dr Shippen's chart, mean that you should feel better.

Absolutely

Most likely your estrogen is the culprit.

I too suspect this, even though Quest has it "under 32"

I would still feel more assured if you did the T and E2 that I posted, and observed FreeE2 and BAT.

I have already written a note to ask Dr S for these when we speak on 1/30. Are these 4 separate tests?

I do not know about fast metabolizers, something is not right, your TotalT should be a sky high not a half of what you are posting.

It should be around 1115
160 1115 28.4 300 xx40 250
give or take a little for fast metabolizers.

agree, but then again I never have good luck.

I really suggest that you do the T & E tests that I recomend, on a schedule that I recomend.

I intend to discuss w/ Dr Shippen during our next conversation.

With your SHBG=11

do 120mg/week
possibly start another vial of testosterone.
The one you have may be suspect.
Get original Depo-Testosterone made by
Pharmacia & Upjohn Co.

Already there. Tried 2 vials of Brand name Depot T


after you think you have syringe filled, pull another 5 units,
wait another two three minutes holding vial with needle in it.
There are tiny bubles in the oil, they need time to travel up.
Then get rid of those bubbles, sometimes not easy.
Yo did not even knew that they existed when you have used large syringe.

I do pull extra units and watch the bubbles, but don't wait. My patience is already wearing thin with all this nonsense. I lways hoped I'd go out with a bang rather than slowly fade away due to omnipresent fatigue and malaise.

==========================================================
Your E2 is high.
Get Liquidex, precise dosing is the key.
Get proper E2 test so you are not working half blidfolded.

I will again ask Dr S for the tests. Where do you buy liquidex? Does it need a scrip?

 

[JanSz]

I have already written a note to ask Dr S for these when we speak on 1/30. Are these 4 separate tests?

FreeT3
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

You should do much more, I am giving you the bottom line.

Iwill again ask Dr S for the tests. Where do you buy liquidex? Does it need a scrip?

PM me.

You also have to change to E2D schedule with T and HCG
==================================================
And remember, getting thise three numbers straight is only first wery small step.

You have to learn quick.
You have a problem with keeping track of three numbers.

How are we going to talk about the other 197 and keep track of them.

 

[anyman]

Interesting...

197 tests and numbers??? That sounds daunting and more.

FreeT3
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

You should do much more, I am giving you the bottom line.
PM me.

You also have to change to E2D schedule with T and HCG
==================================================
And remember, getting thise three numbers straight is only first wery small step.

Only a small step? This is already far too much BS for a guy in his 40s. A man my age should simply be able to live his life,with maybe a little help as he ages.

You have to learn quick.
You have a problem with keeping track of three numbers.

How are we going to talk about the other 197 and keep track of them.

197? Who wants to do that for another 30-40 years? Sorry to be a downer, but that doesn't really sound like anything even remotely approaching a normal life. I have enough trouble accepting that I am terminally defective in my 40s. I am having trouble envisioning myself becoming a never ending science experiment and human pin cushion for another 40 years or so. It shouldn't be this onerous. Quality over quantity.

I must ponder this at length. While I want to feel as I did I may have to simply accept that my body has for unknown reasons failed me. Too bad I couldn't have had something quicker and easier to deal with instead of this maddeningly slow emasculization. It's damned pathetic. I exercise, eat right and try to take care of myself, all the while guys who do none of the above don't have to deal with 1/100th of this nonsense. I know I can at times sound a bit bitter, perhaps because I am. Most guys who have low T don't have to deal with this, simply slap on some Androgel and off they go happy as can be.

I do very much appreciate your efforts and will PM you.