Any interest in another GDA?

[hsk]

Just wanted to put out a feeler to see if there would be any interest in another high strength Corosolic Acid based GDA type of product similar to Slintensity and discontinued Recompadrol. Nothing fancy, just proven effective ingredients in a concentrated formula.

However due to the cost of the raw extracts the price would be expensive. By expensive i mean no less than $50~60 dollars for a 30 day suppy (90 servings). Used sparingly, you could stretch it out to 45~60 days though.

Also, most likely it would have to be sold direct to keeps costs low, and it would be a proprietary blend. Any and all feed back would be much appreciated.

 

[Afi140]

I wouldn't spend that much tbh. I could get 2 pretty comprehensive GDAs that are already out for that price.

 

[ma70]

Proprietary blend? Eh. Paying that much for a prop blend when there are open labeled cheaper options with proven ingredients is tough.

 

[john.patterson]

Agreed with above, I wouldn't be willing to spend that much money on a 30 day supply, especially a prop. blend. I know the raw extracts are expensive, but I couldn't see myself putting out that much money. Just being honest!

 

[cubsfan815]

Agreed.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Why a prop blend? Please don't say "to protect...." Prop blends are for hiding things from the consumer.

 

[JudoJosh]

you are going to have to include something super novel in the formula or increase your buying power to drop the price for the consumer IMO

 

[muscleupcrohn]

you are going to have to include something super novel in the formula or increase your buying power to drop the price for the consumer IMO

Agreed with above, I wouldn't be willing to spend that much money on a 30 day supply, especially a prop. blend. I know the raw extracts are expensive, but I couldn't see myself putting out that much money. Just being honest!

These. Personally, the only time I'll buy a prop blend supplement is when it offers something novel that I can't find in other (non-prop blend) products, otherwise the prop-blend is too much of a turn-off for me, especially if there are well-dosed non-prop blends out there for cheaper.

 

[dave39]

Not a chance.

 

[Chefdeez]

GDA's are completely unnecessary IMO and I have a hard time paying anything for them.

 

[hsk]

Why a prop blend? Please don't say "to protect...." Prop blends are for hiding things from the consumer.

I'm not a fan of proprietary blends myself but there are quality companies who put out quality products with proprietary blends. Not all prop blends are used to hide things from the consumer. Not trying to debate this issue, but there are 2 sides to every story.

you are going to have to include something super novel in the formula or increase your buying power to drop the price for the consumer IMO

There would be a novel ingredient aside from a few well known ones, but an effective daily dosage would be expensive even if producing in large volume.


I guess this will go on the back-burner until raw prices come down. Thank you for the feed back though.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'm not a fan of proprietary blends myself but there are quality companies who put out quality products with proprietary blends. Not all prop blends are used to hide things from the consumer. Not trying to debate this issue, but there are 2 sides to every story.

What is your reason for this prop blend? How does a prop blend benefit the consumer? If a "Quality Company" uses a prop blend, they have room to improve.

 

[hsk]

What is your reason for this prop blend? How does a prop blend benefit the consumer? If a "Quality Company" uses a prop blend, they have room to improve.

Recouping the time and money invested to bring something new to the market as well as protection of trade secrets. For a company to do all the leg work, research, and initial capital investment risk to bring something new and innovative to the market only to have every other company copying them without having to spend a dime on R &D or having to take the initial capital risk. This would hit small start-ups the hardest as a big company with lots of market share, brand recognition and resources could easily capitalize on the start-up's idea or innovation.

As I had posted before, there are valid arguments for both sides of this issue. Regarding your question of how this benefits the consumer, that is a separate issue. As a consumer I agree and I dislike prop blends and try to avoid whenever possible, but not every company that uses a prop blend is trying to hide something. Examples of quality companies with products with prop blends I like would be PES AnaBeta Elite and the now discontinued EBF Recompadrol. I have spent lots of my money with these companies because their products work and lived up to claims and their reps are knowledgeable, helpful, and provide excellent customer service/support. Another thing to keep in mind is that not every product will work the same on everyone, as each individuals' body chemistry is unique and may not react the same way to the same supplement as others.

It really comes down to perspective either from a consumer point of view or from a business point of view. I see the issue from both sides as I have been a supplement user/consumer for over 15 years, and I have also been self employed for over 15 years and have owned/operated many businesses. Hence, there are 2 sides to every story.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I can find out exactly how much of what is listed on the Nutritional Information Panel for way less than $10,000. Tell me I wouldn't be able to. At the usual 8x to 10x mark up of supplements, even an average Mom & Pop supp shop could have this done, not to mention that it would be restaurant tip money to orgs like MusclePharm, Universal, HiTech, etc... The "protect my time, money...." defense is bogus.

Bogus Part II: It's a prop blend. Since no one knows what the amounts are (unless they get it assayed), I can just copy your ingredients - that you have to list on the Nutritional Information Panel - and make an exact looking clone. Sure the amounts may be different, but so what, I'll put them in the same order - to the average label reader, they are identical. Where is all this "Protection"? Your only protection comes from marketing: "Only *we* have purchased a super secret farm run by Monks in the Andes Mountains to grow this plant. Can you *really* trust our competitors raw material? No! Order now!"

Prop Blends are for hiding something from the consumer- Period.

Edit: I run my own business too, so both sides covered here as well.

 

[hsk]

That boils down to the ethics and character of the company and the people who run and manage it. By your logic, does this mean that a company such as PES is hiding something from the consumer because they use prop blends in some of their popular products?

 

[GNO]

hsk

Which company are you affiliated with? I assume you are not just mixing raws in your kitchen and selling it on the boards lol.

 

[JudoJosh]

The protect time and money defense is actually credible. Yes someone can run an assay and figure it out, but the competitors, specifically the knockoff market which is typically the guy in his basement, doesn't have this access nor the finiances to run said test. Can they make a label that appears to be similar? Sure, of course , but if the original company has a quality formula then a knockoff with incorrect ratios theoretically won't be as effective so free market would favor the original product.

Are prop blends done in a way to fuk over the consumer? Sure, in some instances this is absolutely the case. Is it ALWAYS done with this intention? Absolutely not. Is the ONLY reason to have a prop blend to fuk over consumers? Absolutely not. To suggest both of these positions makes you more of a cynic and less of a skeptic

 

[NoAddedHmones]

The protect time and money defense is actually credible. Yes someone can run an assay and figure it out, but the competitors, specifically the knockoff market which is typically the guy in his basement, doesn't have this access nor the finiances to run said test. Can they make a label that appears to be similar? Sure, of course , but if the original company has a quality formula then a knockoff with incorrect ratios theoretically won't be as effective so free market would favor the original product.

Are prop blends done in a way to fuk over the consumer? Sure, in some instances this is absolutely the case. Is it ALWAYS done with this intention? Absolutely not. Is the ONLY reason to have a prop blend to fuk over consumers? Absolutely not. To suggest both of these positions makes you more of a cynic and less of a skeptic

Funny thing is, it didn't seem to stop that EU company pretty much Carbon coping alphamine lol

 

[hsk]

hsk

Which company are you affiliated with? I assume you are not just mixing raws in your kitchen and selling it on the boards lol.

No company at the moment. Just a few potential new products/formulas including a GDA. If financially feasible, this product would be one of a few used to help launch a new company. Products would be manufactured by an FDA inspected facility with NSF/GMP Certification, batch records, QC/chem analysis for all incoming raws, and final QC/product testing for purity and potency to make sure all products meet label claims. The manufacturer being used also manufactures for many of the medium and large supplement companies as well.

The protect time and money defense is actually credible. Yes someone can run an assay and figure it out, but the competitors, specifically the knockoff market which is typically the guy in his basement, doesn't have this access nor the finiances to run said test. Can they make a label that appears to be similar? Sure, of course , but if the original company has a quality formula then a knockoff with incorrect ratios theoretically won't be as effective so free market would favor the original product.

Are prop blends done in a way to fuk over the consumer? Sure, in some instances this is absolutely the case. Is it ALWAYS done with this intention? Absolutely not. Is the ONLY reason to have a prop blend to fuk over consumers? Absolutely not. To suggest both of these positions makes you more of a cynic and less of a skeptic

Very well phrased. Thank you Josh for saving me the trouble of typing up a similar response.

 

[Daycrawler]

Between Glycophase and Burn24 there's not much market left. Honestly, the cost would end pricing you way out of the market.

 

[cubsfan815]

Between Glycophase and Burn24 there's not much market left. Honestly, the cost would end pricing you way out of the market.

Especially with Slinmax added to that group!

 

[criticalbench]

No way im paying that much.. not a chance in hell..

 

[The_Old_Guy]

That boils down to the ethics and character of the company and the people who run and manage it. By your logic, does this mean that a company such as PES is hiding something from the consumer because they use prop blends in some of their popular products?

Yes. But I still buy Select when it's ~$10/Lb because that's a good price for MPI and WPC80 - I just don't expect much from the PepForm. Like I've said before, the "hiding" doesn't automatically mean nefarious - you can use a lot less -(-)Epi when you complex it with Phosphytidalcholine (just like Curcumin), but get a better blood plasma concentration level... but I'd rather see educational material on that fact in the ad copy, then a prop blend hiding the amount.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

The protect time and money defense is actually credible. Yes someone can run an assay and figure it out, but the competitors, specifically the knockoff market which is typically the guy in his basement, doesn't have this access nor the finiances to run said test. Can they make a label that appears to be similar? Sure, of course , but if the original company has a quality formula then a knockoff with incorrect ratios theoretically won't be as effective so free market would favor the original product.

Are prop blends done in a way to fuk over the consumer? Sure, in some instances this is absolutely the case. Is it ALWAYS done with this intention? Absolutely not. Is the ONLY reason to have a prop blend to fuk over consumers? Absolutely not. To suggest both of these positions makes you more of a cynic and less of a skeptic

With all due respect - BS (IMO).

The "effective ratios" AKA the amounts of the ingredients in the prop blend, are already published in the literature that was used to come up with the supplement in the first place. Can I find research studies on every ingredient in your prop blends? From the ones I've looked at (and used)? The answer is YES. Every ingredient, in every one of your products, has at least 1 research study done on it (mouse, rat, human) with the effective dose used (or HED). If someone wants to insist that there is a "magical combination" of things that don't do jack separately, I hope they have numerous links to the research (which again, means it ain't secret).

So what are we hiding/protecting again? If it's more than the clinically effective dose, profits be damned, that's a selling + that you would want to shout from the heavens. EXACT clinical dose? Again, a selling + you want to advertise. Less than the clinically effective dose....prop blend it.

Prop blends are like a terrorist cell revealing their HQ location (the ingredient), but not revealing how many miles they are from the local FBI field office (the amount). Prop blends would only protect if the law allowed you to hide the ingredient. "Hey! I lost 20lbs of fat in a week with this stuff!...what's in it?....fuk if I know..."

Great example, your protein: Are you saying there is a magic combination of MPI, WPC80, and Leucine Peptide that not even Layne Norton or Stu Phillips has figured out? Why on earth is that thing prop blended? It's 24g of protein, the ratio of which doesn't really matter anyway, but lets say 12.1g and 11.9g...and Leucine, of which we know we want 3-5g, any more is a waste and we get ~2 from the protein. Prop blended why????

 

[muscleupcrohn]

With all due respect - BS (IMO).

The "effective ratios" AKA the amounts of the ingredients in the prop blend, are already published in the literature that was used to come up with the supplement in the first place. Can I find research studies on every ingredient in your prop blends? From the ones I've looked at (and used)? The answer is YES. Every ingredient, in every one of your products, has at least 1 research study done on it (mouse, rat, human) with the effective dose used (or HED). If someone wants to insist that there is a "magical combination" of things that don't do jack separately, I hope they have numerous links to the research (which again, means it ain't secret).

So what are we hiding/protecting again? If it's more than the clinically effective dose, profits be damned, that's a selling + that you would want to shout from the heavens. EXACT clinical dose? Again, a selling + you want to advertise. Less than the clinically effective dose....prop blend it.

Prop blends are like a terrorist cell revealing their HQ location (the ingredient), but not revealing how many miles they are from the local FBI field office (the amount). Prop blends would only protect if the law allowed you to hide the ingredient. "Hey! I lost 20lbs of fat in a week with this stuff!...what's in it?....fuk if I know..."

Great example, your protein: Are you saying there is a magic combination of MPI, WPC80, and Leucine Peptide that not even Layne Norton or Stu Phillips has figured out? Why on earth is that thing prop blended? It's 24g of protein, the ratio of which doesn't really matter anyway, but lets say 12.1g and 11.9g...and Leucine, of which we know we want 3-5g, any more is a waste and we get ~2 from the protein. Prop blended why????

Back when Magnitropin was a prop blend, I was able to guess (with a very high degree of accuracy) how much of each ingredient was in the product by reading research/studies/papers on the various ingredients. Granted, they did formulate it properly (the doses corresponded with doses used in studies and/or traditional doses of the ingredients), but I'd say the supplement is effective because it contains effective doses of various ingredients, not because there's some previously unknown, magically synergistic combination and ratio of ingredients that no one else could figure out without investing significant amounts of time and/or money. Hell, most of the "synergistic" ingredient blends we have come from either research/studies (which are available to read, and list the doses used) or traditional/historical usage (which also lists the ingredient combinations and doses/ratios used).

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Back when Magnitropin was a prop blend, I was able to guess (with a very high degree of accuracy) how much of each ingredient was in the product by reading research/studies/papers on the various ingredients. Granted, they did formulate it properly (the doses corresponded with doses used in studies and/or traditional doses of the ingredients), but I'd say the supplement is effective because it contains effective doses of various ingredients, not because there's some previously unknown, magically synergistic combination and ratio of ingredients that no one else could figure out without investing significant amounts of time and/or money. Hell, most of the "synergistic" ingredient blends we have come from either research/studies (which are available to read, and list the doses used) or traditional/historical usage (which also lists the ingredient combinations and doses/ratios used).

Yes, I forgot to mention Chinese, Indian, African natural medicines - thanks. It's all out there, we need this myth to die.

 

[JudoJosh]

Question: how many people are capable of reading and ACCURATELY understanding research? Let alone are able to do a HED conversion and make meaningful take away conclusions from it. Just the other day I was in a conversation with a unnamed supplement company owner who clearly had no idea how to read and inturpet papers, yet owns a company and puts out product. Do you think he is an outlier or the standard norm? You would be surprised. And this is just talking about being able to make deductions of ONE ingredient. This desnt even hold a candle to creating formulations, formulations that complement each other. This requires complete understanding of various pathways involved and the pharmakinetics involved.

So no, your counter that they can just easily look up and find the appropriate combinations and then combine them together in a practical, optimal and synergistic way .. just by reading some research papers that they barely understand, doesn't really justify that all prop blends are worthless and can't possibly be used to protect novel ingredients and/or formulations

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Question: how many people are capable of reading and ACCURATELY understanding research? Let alone are able to do a HED conversion and make meaningful take away conclusions from it. Just the other day I was in a conversation with a unnamed supplement company owner who clearly had no idea how to read and inturpet papers, yet owns a company and puts out product. Do you think he is an outlier or the standard norm? You would be surprised. And this is just talking about being able to make deductions of ONE ingredient. This desnt even hold a candle to creating formulations, formulations that complement each other. This requires complete understanding of various pathways involved and the pharmakinetics involved.

So no, your counter that they can just easily look up and find the appropriate combinations and then combine them together in a practical, optimal and synergistic way .. just by reading some research papers that they barely understand

Valid point, but, at least for me, using a prop blend supplement means putting a higher level of faith in the company (and their formulators), since I am basically trusting them that the amounts of each ingredient are effective and safe, since I can't tell how much of each ingredient there is with any level of certainty with a prop blend. With a fully-disclosed formula, an educated consumer (I know that there aren't really very many truly educated consumers) can figure out if the product appears effective and safe; you don't have to have an inherent trust that the product formulators dosed the supplement properly, only that what's on the label is actually in the product, which is also an issue, but not the topic of this discussion. It is true that a prop blend can help keep a unique or innovative formula a bit more protected, it can also hide a poorly-dosed formula just as well, and I would argue that the latter is why most companies use prop blends. A new company using prop blends would have to give me a very good reason to trust/try their products, especially if they're more expensive than other fully-disclosed and properly dosed formulas. I'd say that they'd need an ingredient(s) that's not really available in any other similar product, or there's really no reason to use it; the market is pretty saturated for a large variety of supplements already.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Question: how many people are capable of reading and ACCURATELY understanding research? Let alone are able to do a HED conversion and make meaningful take away conclusions from it. Just the other day I was in a conversation with a unnamed supplement company owner who clearly had no idea how to read and inturpet papers, yet owns a company and puts out product. Do you think he is an outlier or the standard norm? You would be surprised. And this is just talking about being able to make deductions of ONE ingredient. This desnt even hold a candle to creating formulations, formulations that complement each other. This requires complete understanding of various pathways involved and the pharmakinetics involved.

So no, your counter that they can just easily look up and find the appropriate combinations and then combine them together in a practical, optimal and synergistic way .. just by reading some research papers that they barely understand

He doesn't have to: He'll just look at your label and order a bunch of stuff from places like Stiritti and put out an identical prop blend for $1 less. Your argument is that his won't "work", but yours will - even though he has, BY LAW, the total milligram amount, each ingredient, and the order by weights. That idiot will get close enough, and I can almost guarantee the end user will notice no difference anyway. You put out prop blends, so we aren't going to agree obviously. No way an employee of PES will go on record agreeing with my side

Now about that prop blended protein...

Edit: So, we have the big boys like HiTech, who have the supply chain, researchers, customer base and advertising/marketing dollars to have your product assayed and undercut you (Your biggest threat). We have other guys who aren't idiots, that *can* read research papers and learn proper dosing and then combine properly dosed products into a "formula" for a specific area ie. fatloss. And finally we have idiots with a small customer base and little "reach" who can get close enough (Your smallest threat). For that tiny threat (which I still doubt, as well as the magnitude of it - across the industry) every - single - consumer must be kept in the dark about what they are buying?