AI's for PCT - when will it end?

[Dwight Schrute]

lol, i messaged Swale over at meso and begged him to grace us with is presence. Who's message did he get first?

I did mine a good year ago. It was a different subject the reason he was already registered here.

 

[DR.D]

Maybe i didnt provide enough evidence to support my claim ...

No you did, but the entire conclusion of the article was:

"... Based upon these data we hypothesize that the human GnRH gene might also be directly regulated by estrogen in the hypothalamus, and that this regulation may explain the GnRH hypersecretion observed at the time of the preovulatory luteinizing hormone (LH) surge."

Now what does that have to do with us men or with invitro rather than invivo testing or with pituitary response? I'll answer myself, it doesn't.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I am with you on this one. I went back and forth in the 19 pg Delayed Gyno thread at BB.com, and no one could provide me with conclusive evidence.

That is because there is no conclusive evidence but its generally the reaction of the body when a hormone is suppressed for periods of time.

If the medical community doens't have conclusive facts about what causes gyno then you arne't going to find it on a message board either.

Its all speculation so at that point you should take the view of someone who knows more about endocrinology and how a body will react based on whats been formaly taught in the medical communicty and his own practice and that would be Dr. Crisler.

Seems to be a simple choice IMO.

 

[DR.D]

And for people who are using AI fr long peroids of time think about it again:


The role of aromatization in testosterone supplementation: effects on cognition in older men.

Cherrier MM, Matsumoto AM, Amory JK, Ahmed S, Bremner W, Peskind ER, Raskind MA, Johnson M, Craft S.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Washington Medical School, Seattle, WA, USA. [email protected].

OBJECTIVE: To determine the contribution of conversion of testosterone (T) to estradiol on cognitive processing in a population of healthy older men who received T supplementation. METHODS: Sixty healthy, community-dwelling volunteers aged 50 to 90 years completed a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Participants were randomized to receive weekly IM injections of 100 mg T enanthate plus daily oral placebo pill (T group, n = 20), 100 mg testosterone enanthate plus 1 mg daily of anastrozole, an aromatase inhibitor (oral pill), to block the conversion of T to estradiol (AT group, n = 19), or saline injection and placebo pill (placebo group, n = 21) for 6 weeks. Cognitive evaluations using a battery of neuropsychological tests were conducted at baseline, week 3 and week 6 of treatment, and after 6 weeks of washout. RESULTS: Circulating total T was increased from baseline an average of 238% in the T and AT treatment groups. Estradiol increased an average of 81% in the T group and decreased 50% in the AT group during treatment. Significant improvements in spatial memory were evident in the AT and T treatment groups. However, only the group with elevated estradiol levels (T group) demonstrated significant verbal memory improvement. CONCLUSION: In healthy older men, improvement in verbal memory induced by testosterone administration depends on aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, whereas improvement in spatial memory occurs in the absence of increases in estradiol.

Now there's a valid point... we can all get in touch with our feminine sides! I always wanted to be more verbal. Maybe I can put a little pink dress on too, I bet you and BC would like that, huh? :run:

On second thought, as good as that sounds, I think I'll just go with a pinch of AI and avoid the tits. Noboby said you had to crush your estrogen levels, just attenuate them.

 

[DR.D]

... Its all speculation so at that point you should take the view of someone who knows more about endocrinology and how a body will react based on whats been formaly taught in the medical communicty and his own practice and that would be Dr. Crisler ...

Good place to start if you take that approach. Listen to everyone but believe no one but yourself, unless it is a respected teacher. However, unless you are calling me a liar, I have told you otherwise based on research, bloodwork, objective (myself) and subjective (others) reports, and have reported the facts on what works. I don't have a bio degree or practice but am I so unbelievable? No pertinent data has been advanced to shoot down my theories. And that's all it is, my theory. A theory is not proven, it must be disproved before you can say it's not legit though. Are the results so hard to see? What I suggest works, whether it's suppose to on paper or not.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Good place to start if you take that approach. Listen to everyone but believe no one but yourself, unless it is a respected teacher. However, unless you are calling me a liar, I have told you otherwise based on research, bloodwork, objective (myself) and subjective (others) reports, and have reported the facts on what works. I don't have a bio degree or practice but am I so unbelievable? No pertinent data has been advanced to shoot down my theories. And that's all it is, my theory. A theory is not proven, it must be disproved before you can say it's not legit though. Are the results so hard to see? What I suggest works, whether it's suppose to on paper or not.

Check yourself. Nobody called you a liar but your results are no more valid that anyone elses but when I look for people opinions to trust I do not look for users, I look for those who understand how the body works first then take their opinion on said protocol before I start popping pills.

Sorry D, Dr. Crislers clinical data, experience, education and opinion go way further than someone who "tried" and "experiemented".

Of course your protocls will work. EVERYTHING will work as long as you don't suppress the axis because its the natural response of the body to begin with. So that point is moot. Homeostasis will be the end results unless you purposely stop it.

 

[DR.D]

Check yourself. Nobody called you a liar but your results are no more valid that anyone elses but when I look for people opinions to trust I do not look for users, I look for those who understand how the body works first then take their opinion on said protocol before I start popping pills.

Sorry D, Dr. Crislers clinical data, experience, education and opinion go way further than someone who "tried" and "experiemented".

Of course your protocls will work. EVERYTHING will work as long as you don't suppress the axis because its the natural response of the body to begin with. So that point is moot. Homeostasis will be the end results unless you purposely stop it.

Like I said before, listening to Dr. Crisler is a good place to start if you don't know for yourself. I'm just glad you can at least admit that my protocols are non-suppressive and effective. Some will not even admit that, and that's my main argument at this point.

Nevertheless, docs have always admired my personal knowledge of endocrinology because experimentation adds a whole new level of understanding that a doctor, book or theory can't tell you! The trick is managing to stay alive and healthy while you experiment. That's my real value to your board, Bobo. I've done **** that nobody else has, and can offer that info freely to help them avoid the mistakes they might make otherwise.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Like I said before, listening to Dr. Crisler is a good place to start if you don't know for yourself. I'm just glad you can at least admit that my protocols are non-suppressive and effective. Some will not even admit that, and that's my main argument at this point.

Nevertheless, docs have always admired my personal knowledge of endocrinology because experimentation adds a whole new level of understanding that a doctor, book or theory can't tell you! The trick is managing to stay alive and healthy while you experiment. That's my real value to your board, Bobo. I've done **** that nobody else has, and can offer that info freely to help them avoid the mistakes they might make otherwise.

I didn't say they were non suppressive simply because nobody knows without several people providing blood work (but agree its probably not going to be). As for being effective its hard to judge what is more effective because the end results will be the same whether you use something or nothing. So arguing what is more effective is pointless IMO because unless there is data on steroid users comparing different protocols nobody will know for sure and its there that I take the work of Dr. Crisler over anyone. When all else fails use the simple effective approach with the least amount of resistance.

And I wouldn't say you are the only one who has experimented...there are plenty.

And just because you are alive and healthy today doesn't mean the next guy will be if he chooses to follow the same experimental pattern. There are plenty of dead BB'ers and those with severe health problems 20 years down the line due to a nonchalant attitude about mixing drugs or experimenting with different protocols.


This whole argument is because people were getting gyno post cycle. Guess what, its been happening for years with many drugs so this isn't something new AT ALL. I don't think it has anything specifically to do with ATD or Superdrol. I think it has more to do with people responses to androgen's in general but you are hearing about it now because there have probably been more people in the last year that attempted to use hormones due to the legal availability than ever. I got gyno USING an AI and Proviron so fit that one into the equation as well.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

And Dr.D just to show you I'm not against all experimentation, here is a post I made before you were even a member here about using 7-keto post cycle

Invalid Link Removed

 

[DR.D]

And Dr.D just to show you I'm not against all experimentation, here is a post I made before you were even a member here about using 7-keto post cycle

Invalid Link Removed

OK, fair enough, Bobo!

To show I am impartial and just in search of the truth, I will admit there is some evidence to point to elevated thyroid levels (effects on binding globins) related to gyno and 7-oxo/DHEA. That's another battle for a later day though!

Bottom line, I see no practical problems for most users that elect to responsibly use 7-OH, 7-oxo or DHEA post cycle.

 

[UberPooper1]

ive had my best pct's including both and ai and a serm. we have both, why not use both?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

OK, fair enough, Bobo!

To show I am impartial and just in search of the truth, I will admit there is some evidence to point to elevated thyroid levels (effects on binding globins) related to gyno and 7-oxo/DHEA. That's another battle for a later day though!

Bottom line, I see no practical problems for most users that elect to responsibly use 7-OH, 7-oxo or DHEA post cycle.

I know the arguement. Its an old one that went on at CEM some time ago but 7-keto will not elevate thyroid activity nearly enough

It also involved prolactin as well....

 

[Dwight Schrute]

ive had my best pct's including both and ai and a serm. we have both, why not use both?

Because its like telling someone to use a sledgehammer to drive in a nail. It will work but its probably overkill IMO that shows no benefit and increases some of the negative aspects as well.

And for every person that says they have had their best PCT using both there is another that says a SERM alone had the same effect (me being one of them). Without bloodwork both opinions are questionable at best.

 

[jonny21]

Well Doc while you are here, any issue starting a PCT with Clomid and finishing with Nolvadex?

Also, do have any reference materials re: steroidal AI's and estrogen rebound?

Is DHEA suppressive or supportive to endogenous testosterone production?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

...except you cannot draw a valid estrogen assay while on a SERM-class drug.

Case in point.

 

[jonny21]

Yes it does help.

Re: the SERM's, I should have been more specific. Starting with Clomid 100mg qd for the first 10 days; finishing with Nolvadex starting @ 40mg qd and tapering the Nolva down by half every 5 days.

 

[DR.D]

Remember also that Swale did not comment on steroidal AIs like the drug Teslac, a non-competitive suicide substrate (like ATD). This class of AI is actually shown to have protracted estrogen biosynthesis inhibiting effects long after it is discontinued. That is just the opposite of the rebound you'd expect from months of an enzyme inhibitor like Anastrazole or Letrozole (albeit at high doses). An AI can be useful later in PCT after SERMs are being phased out and early in PCT at a much lower dose if hCG is used in conjunction to discourage the estrogen inspired desensitization that it can self-induce on testicular response, especially if prolonged or high dose hCG is employed.

The DHEA use post-cycle is mainly to suppress cortisol. If an AI is used also, there is no conversion to estrogenic metabolites. If a SERM is used, the small amount of estrogen conversion is negated anyway, so it is still a useful cortisol antagonist in PCT without resulting in any further suppression. And yes, elevated cortisol is usually seen post-cycle. Reasons why:

1) Anabolic steroids increase binding capacity of plasma protein for corticoids. This causes reduced metabolism and clearance of cortisol and explains why cortisol is elevated post cycle. Why do you see a low of nitrogen, phosphorus and calcium retention as a cycle goes on? Because the growth promoting effects of the anabolic steroids start to become antagonized by elevated corticoid levels.
2) Corticoids and anabolic compete for identical binding sites is some tissue. This may upregulate GRs. The relationship can be viewed as analogous to spirolactone and aldosterone.

Also, the only reason I started to advocate switching Nolva for Clomid after the first 2-3 wks is to avoid the visual and emotional sides of the Clomid and also to play it safe as an estrogenic metabolite of Clomid starts to accumulate and may result in the suppression of GnRH at the pituitary as Swale noted. Clomid is also more supportive of libido, which is often suffering in the initial phase of PCT. I also like to minimize the use of Nolva, as it is relatively more toxic, so this dual protocol accomplishes both if SERM is to be used for long periods of time (like a 6-8wk PCT).

 

[jonny21]

I was only asking about the DHEA because BC while making a derogatory comment stated that it was suppressive and I could not find any references to support that.

I also use Clomid at the start and finish with the Nolva. I do this because I remember reading that Clomid has a quicker onset and helps getting the swimmers going in the sperm.

 

[DR.D]

I can't find any references to support that either. I do have lots of bloodwork and personal experience to show otherwise though! DHEA is not under the influence of the HPTA. It is secreted under the influence of ACTH (an adrenal hormone).

BC is truly clueless if you ask me. I once though he was a fairly intelligent guy, but I see now that his info must be sifted to shake out all the erroneous crap. It leaves behind about 10% useful info once you sort it all out. Come to find out, he has all sorts of serious, personal issues and has very little gym experience of his own. Not really sure why people take him serious anymore.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I can't find any references to support that either. I do have lots of bloodwork and personal experience to show otherwise though! DHEA is not under the influence of the HPTA. It is secreted under the influence of ACTH (an adrenal hormone).

BC is truly clueless if you ask me. I once though he was a fairly intelligent guy, but I see now that his info must be sifted to shake out all the erroneous crap. It leaves behind about 10% useful info once you sort it all out. Come to find out, he has all sorts of serious, personal issues and has very little gym experience of his own. Not really sure why people take him serious anymore.

I certainly don't anymore. He's a whack job now.

 

[BMW]

I certainly don't anymore. He's a whack job now.

its that bad? how did he become credible to begin with?

 

[Alpine]

If there is a benefit to using both SERM-class drugs, I do not know what it would be.

As far as I know, the arguement that Clomid is suppressive of GnRH at the pituitary has only been shown at very high doses (150mg QD) in that Belgian study.

25mg QD of Clomid is quite powerful for ending HPTA-suppression. This was found independently by both Dr. Eugene Shippen and myself, as we discussed privately (with Nick Delgado) at an A4M conference in Las Vegas two years ago.

I have seen gyno on rebound from AI's. That is what made me first think of it (meaning when it occured to me it MAY be happening, not that I was the first to come up with the idea). Once you acquire sufficient knowledge base in how these things work, so you get a good "feeling" for the endocrine system, it makes a lot of sense.

It is also important to remember to taper SERM-class drugs at the end of PCT.

DHEA does not elevate T in males (only females). I do not recommend it at doses higher than 25 or 50mg QD because it will convert into estrogens.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread. We know you have a busy schedule.

For the sake of the AM membership (many aren’t on Meso) could you briefly outline what is in your opinion the ideal PCT for a standard 10-12 week cycle? Maybe an example with HCG/Nolva and an example of it without HCG only using Nolva. Im curious what dosages and schedule of HCG you recommend. Tapering the SERM towards the end of PCT is new to me also. I haven’t seen others recommend this unless I just missed it. What’s the reasoning behind this again?

 

[aspire210]

its that bad? how did he become credible to begin with?

He wrote the articles in the stickies. He has also been around for a loooong time. I think his first big screw up was calling out a big name source on BB.com, then PA stepped in and crushed him. He disappeared for a while after that and only recently really resurfaced. Since then, hes wrote the "real superdrol write-up", called out a number of supplement companies for having "secret" ingrediants, when most of them were easily uncovered by merely going to the company website or reading the back of the bottle for them. Truly "secret"! Then he has been aggressivly attacking and censoring anyone who disagrees with him at bb.com. He also pulls up alot of irrelevant information off medline to support his bizarre claims. I believe he said Dr.D should be shot as well. Finally, if you follow PA's board, muscle gurus (ya I know most here are not a fan of his),i think he talked about an epoxidation of DMT, which apperently is impossible as there is no "epoxidase" enzyme. As you can tell, I'm not a fan of his.....

btw the thread on musclegurus- Invalid Link Removed

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Big Cat, the tall goofy kid who wrote all of the articles on BB.com?

I know it sounds ridiculous, but I have a hard time taking bodybuilding advice from someone who doesn't even look like he bodybuilds.

I think the only things I liked of his were "portions" of his steroid profiles (like molecular weight, etc.) and I liked (and semi-agreed) with his take on milk.

I don't know why BB.com let him post pictures... :think: That just kills it.

 

[Alpine]

Well Doc while you are here, any issue starting a PCT with Clomid and finishing with Nolvadex?

Also, do have any reference materials re: steroidal AI's and estrogen rebound?

Is DHEA suppressive or supportive to endogenous testosterone production?

Patrick Arnold on DHEA
DHEA is a bad choice for PCT because it metabolizes into an estrogenic metabolite - 5-AD

5-AD is not formed by aromatase and binds directly to estrogen receptors so use of an AI with it is not going to help

i took a gram of 5-AD back in the day. two days later my gyno was flared up in a major way. that stuff is not a joke

if i knew that DHEA was in the mix here i would have recognized right away that it was the biggest suspect by far

also i have heard of gyno from the use of non-aromatizing drugs that were discontinued with no PCT. stuff like winstrol

Other people (including BC) have said similair things regarding DHEA.

 

[x_muscle]

This study bugs me.......


Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.


Im thinking to use ATD suring a cycle to reduce estrogen, but from what i get from study suggests its not a good idea.

Any one knows if the other AIs prevent or compete with androgen binding to its receptors!!!!

 

[jonny21]

Tapering the SERM towards the end of PCT is new to me also. I haven’t seen others recommend this unless I just missed it. What’s the reasoning behind this again?

Some are over at Meso though. He rec's tapering the SERM down by half every 5 days. Nolva down to 2.5mg/day and the Clomid to 12.5mg/day. At least that is how I interpreted it. Sounds logical.

 

[SJA]

WOW....now that's a really long taper. I've never tried that before.

 

[Beowulf]

Some are over at Meso though. He rec's tapering the SERM down by half every 5 days. Nolva down to 2.5mg/day and the Clomid to 12.5mg/day. At least that is how I interpreted it. Sounds logical.

What is the starting dose for nolva with this plan?
60x5
30x5
15x5
7.5x5
3.75x5
?????????:think:

 

[jonny21]

What is the starting dose for nolva with this plan?
60x5
30x5
15x5
7.5x5
3.75x5
?????????:think:

40mg was the start. So in actuality it is not that long of a taper. He has not listed a SERM only PCT that I could find.

What I am planning to do is to Start with Clomid @ 100mg/day for 5 days,then 50mg for 5 days, Then switch to Nolva @ 40mg for 5 days and taper down by 50% every 5 days until 2.5mg/day.

 

[Mass_69]

By the way, I am not affiliated with anyone other than myself. I just like to have pertinent, factual, and reliable info before I make any choices regarding what goes into or on my body.

Me neither. When I PMed BC (for the AI studies) and told him that, I didn't seem to get much of a response/discussion from him. He was more interested in "battling" with the "known gurus", and the thread took a nose-dive.

 

[Mass_69]

That is because there is no conclusive evidence but its generally the reaction of the body when a hormone is suppressed for periods of time.

If the medical community doens't have conclusive facts about what causes gyno then you arne't going to find it on a message board either.

Its all speculation so at that point you should take the view of someone who knows more about endocrinology and how a body will react based on whats been formaly taught in the medical communicty and his own practice and that would be Dr. Crisler.

Seems to be a simple choice IMO.

I was actually referring to certain members over there (BB.com) that made certain claims regarding steroidal AIs, but did not back it up with any science.

I'm with you on consulting the views of someone in the medical community. I found an endocrinologist last month. Also, within the past 4 months or so, I have been reading a few endocrinology books I picked up at the Yale Medical School Bookstore, and have been pounding the online published studies (PubMed, Endo Journals, etc.) more often. This will help me make a better-educated choice, and rely less on anecdotal evidence.

I think everyone should take your advice. The boards are good reference points, but rely on the findings and teachings of the medical community.

 

[SJA]

40mg was the start. So in actuality it is not that long of a taper. He has not listed a SERM only PCT that I could find.

What I am planning to do is to Start with Clomid @ 100mg/day for 5 days,then 50mg for 5 days, Then switch to Nolva @ 40mg for 5 days and taper down by 50% every 5 days until 2.5mg/day.

He also reccomends HCG....which would make a big difference as well.

 

[mmorpheuss]

What is 5-AD?

5-androstenediol. the oral 17-alpha alkylated version of 5-AD is Methandriol if I remember correctly.

 

[Alpine]

Some are over at Meso though. He rec's tapering the SERM down by half every 5 days. Nolva down to 2.5mg/day and the Clomid to 12.5mg/day. At least that is how I interpreted it. Sounds logical.

Right, but whats the thinking/logic and evidence behind this? I'm sure its a sound conclusion but I was just curious.

 

[jonny21]

I am not sure of the pathway PA refers to, but do know DHEA converts to androstenedione. The school medicine is that it then converts to testosterone. The problem for males is that it does this only on paper; the reality is that androstenedione instead gets shunted by aromatase to estrone (which is virtually interchangeable with estradiol). This is why you cannot elevate T in men with DHEA. Above 25mg BID or so, you get estrogen production, obviously counterproductive to our aims.

First, thank you for your input. I am sure you are extremely busy and the time you are taking to help non-clients/patients is greatly appreciated.

Second, refering to the above. Would a low dose steroidal AI (ATD, aromasin) help to remedy this action? I am a novice, but I figure if the raw material is there it would make it easier for T to be produced. And if we can negate the conversion to estrone would that mean an elevation in T?

Third, for shorter cycles (4-6 weeks) without the use of HCG while "on" is a SERM only PCT asking too much of our endocrine system?

 

[edale3]

alright guys, heres the deal, my A.D.D is way to bad to follow everything here, and i am definately not smart enough to understand everything, but now i am nervous about the info in this post. I had done a lot of research on this site about pct and came up at that time with a 50/50 of mixed reviews so i went with the otc pct, it is what i felt safest with at the time based on the research. I did a 8 week cycle of qv250, i am in the 2nd week of pct, activate, rebound, lean extreme, and i have nolva on hand but have not used it. i feel fine and i dont think i have any effects of gyno,my labido seems fine, and i have not lost any strength, how do i know if my pct is working? thanks guys. oh yah if it matters i am 36ys old 6'1" 225. thanks again!

 

[Mass_69]

alright guys, heres the deal, my A.D.D is way to bad to follow everything here, and i am definately not smart enough to understand everything, but now i am nervous about the info in this post. I had done a lot of research on this site about pct and came up at that time with a 50/50 of mixed reviews so i went with the otc pct, it is what i felt safest with at the time based on the research. I did a 8 week cycle of qv250, i am in the 2nd week of pct, activate, rebound, lean extreme, and i have nolva on hand but have not used it. i feel fine and i dont think i have any effects of gyno,my labido seems fine, and i have not lost any strength, how do i know if my pct is working? thanks guys. oh yah if it matters i am 36ys old 6'1" 225. thanks again!

qv250=Test E? If so, you definitely need to use Nolva. A SERM (Nolva is the most commonly used) should be used PCT with just about any androgen. A steroidal AI (Rebound in your case) is good to run low-dose after an aromatizing androgen. The SERM should be the foundation of your PCT. Also, I would have waited until week 3 or 4 to add the ActivaTe, but it may be beneficial from the start for the 35+ yr old crowd.

This is soley my opinion gathered from much information recently aquired. I have not tested the exact protocol (Test E, then SERM+low-dose steroidal AI). Maybe others can comment.

 

[jonny21]

how do i know if my pct is working? thanks guys.

Bloodwork.

 

[edale3]

Johnny, should i finish the cycle of pct i am using before i have the bloodwork done, and save the nolva just in case it comes back bad? and i hope this doesnt sound dumb, but should i just be straight forward with my doc and tell him why i want blood work done. thanks again

 

[jonny21]

Johnny, should i finish the cycle of pct i am using before i have the bloodwork done, and save the nolva just in case it comes back bad? and i hope this doesnt sound dumb, but should i just be straight forward with my doc and tell him why i want blood work done. thanks again

Yes finish your PCT before bloodwork. I think with all the exogenous chemicals/substances you are adding it would skew the results.

I am not sure what you mean in regards to saving the Nolva in case your bloodwork comes back bad. You should probably be taking the Nolva now. I do not feel qualified to be giving advice. I am just another bozo on the bus.

IMO I would be running the Nolva for my PCT if available. From what I've been reading lately, I would add the Rebound at low dose towards the end of PCT as the Nolva dose is being tapered. I believe from what Swale has stated you do not want to completely eliminate Estrogen due to its benefit to your lipid profile.

I do not have any practical experience with Activate, you are probably better off seeking Dr. D's knowledge in that regards.

 

[jmh80]

I wouldn't tell my doc. if I were taking Mexican steroids. You never know what the insurance companies can find out...

 

[jonny21]

but should i just be straight forward with my doc and tell him why i want blood work done. thanks again

At 36yo just tell him you have been feeling lethargic and without the usual desires associated with our gender. You read it could be related to Low test levels and you want to get it checked out to know for sure. That is what I did for the script to my pre-cycle bloodwork. Now I just have to figure out how to get follow up bloodwork ok'd so insurance will cover

 

[skull]

not tryin to pimp anything here but all the ATD prods may not be the same.UHer seems to be made a little differently.And in the full write up they seem to have added some things that may help with the 'gyno rebound'Ive used it on 2PCTs so far on max cycles alone with no problems.I think SD might be the problem .I dont have any bloodwork to prove anything and I have nolva on hand:dance:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Ultra Hotter isnt ATD. Its basically, methyl-atd. So, its different.