After workout shake...

jverch

Board Supporter
okay...I've been using Optimum Nutrition After Max for 3 years now for my postworkout shake and it's worked fine, but I'm looking for a cheaper alternative...anybody have suggestions? It has 40g protein/40g carbs and tastes pretty darn good considering all the crap I've tried in the past five years.
 
Trying to get cheaper than Optimum?

Hmm...

Well, you could buy bulk protein (from board sponsor All The Whey for instance) and bulk maltodextrin or dextrose.

Or something such as that.

??
 
25lbs from the AllTheWhey is like 79.95 if my memory serves me correctly...MUCH CHEAPER then optimum.

or if you know guys that work at GNC tell them to hook you up with some nitro-tech cause that **** is sweeter than a milkshake...however, if paying full-price is WAY over-rated, lol.

regards,
COTC
 
yeah...I was just checking out the SuperMass 600...it's a bit cheaper than Optimum.

Nitrotech? :icon_lol: ...isn't that just asking to get spammed? heh j/k

Guess my objective is two-fold...cheaper and a little higher carb/protein ratio...60/40 (carb/protein)...for instance.
 
It depends on your situation and goals. If you are looking to reduce bodyfat you're going to want to stay away from dextrose and milk (lactose; milk sugar) in your shakes... though, it can be argued, rightly so, that post-workout could be the only time for such things in a diet.

Oats can be a good option post-workout too, as someone mentioned, however, if you are trying to get the 'fast' protein/carb shake, oats don't fit that bill. I'd rather take in my whey isolate, for example, right after training and then, about an hour later, have a meal with oats as the carb source.

There are many ways to approach it. Some are better than others depending on what you are doing diet and training wise, where you are and what your goals are, etc.

You can certainly start this idea of saving money and being control of the protein/carb ratio by buying bulk protein.
 
i use oats and dextrose, so i have a short burst with the dextrose, and a longer acting carb with the oats. Sort of like the sust of PWO shakes.
 
shootmeagain said:
Oats can be a good option post-workout too, as someone mentioned, however, if you are trying to get the 'fast' protein/carb shake, oats don't fit that bill. I'd rather take in my whey isolate, for example, right after training and then, about an hour later, have a meal with oats as the carb source.
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There is no need for trying to drink a 'fast' carb source. Aminos yes, but carbs no. I suggest you check out the sticky from old threads. This has been beaten to death.
 
Milk is fine
Anytime.

I don't what the big stigma is with drinking milk and cutting. FF Milk isn't going to hinder fat loss.
 
DieTrying said:
There is no need for trying to drink a 'fast' carb source. Aminos yes, but carbs no. I suggest you check out the sticky from old threads. This has been beaten to death.
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I didn't say there was. I said "IF" basing the idea on the composition of AfterMax (sp?) which is what he said he has been using.

And beaten to death? Sure. Is there one answer for everyone? No.
 
TheCrownedOne said:
Milk is fine
Anytime.

I don't what the big stigma is with drinking milk and cutting. FF Milk isn't going to hinder fat loss.
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I've got zero against milk and enjoy FF milk every day. However, 'fat-free' (skim) has nothing to do with the sugar content. I'm not sure what the stigma is regarding milk and cutting, I am cutting now, and as I said, drink milk...

...but to ignore the fact that a 12oz glass of milk has 16g of sugar and to think you can drink all you want or drink it anytime is, IMO, in error.

Though I will add, the benefits of milk almost certainly outweigh this minor issue. In the end, I only choose to avoid drinking milk (even though it's fat-free), and other simple carb sources, in the late afternoon and evening hours.
 
Its lactose. Its has a GI of 50 at best. Its "sugar" isn't bad for at all. I can't think of ANY negatives of skim milk.
 
shootmeagain said:
And beaten to death? Sure. Is there one answer for everyone? No.
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If you knew what was actually going on in the body post-WO, you would see that its not that difficult.
 
shootmeagain said:
...but to ignore the fact that a 12oz glass of milk has 16g of sugar and to think you can drink all you want or drink it anytime is, IMO, in error.
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Skim milk has a GI value of 32.

I usually drink 4 gallons per week when both cutting and bulking.
 
DieTrying said:
If you knew what was actually going on in the body post-WO, you would see that its not that difficult.
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I don't mind being corrected, educated, even disputed... but no need to go off saying that I don't know anything about what I'm talking about.

[Edit: Removed unnecessary wording... For the record, I do admit to being misguided in my views regarding skim milk. Anyway, see below for the resolution between DieTrying and myself... it's all good.]
 
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We have very, very different opinions, and theres nothing wrong with that.

I realize I came off as a dick, and I apologize.
 
I certainly appreciate that man and echo that right back to you.

I'm really not sure if we have very different opinions or not. Mabe so. Still, I'd be interested in hearing what you have say about post-workout nutrition as a matter of fact. I'll do a search for 'post-wo' and your username.

We now return this thread to its original topic...

:thumbsup:
 
I used to use weightgainers for my PWO shake (ie N-Large, CytoGainer) due to the high protein, high carb content (malto, dextrose, etc). Recently, within the past month or so, I've been using protein powder with oats and a banana instead and truthfully can't really say I've noticed a difference yet. Of course I'll give it a few more months so I can be a little more subjective.
 
shootmeagain said:
Still, I'd be interested in hearing what you have say about post-workout nutrition as a matter of fact. I'll do a search for 'post-wo' and your username.
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I have no shame in saying that just about everything I've learned about PWO nutrition comes from Bobo and his program. I was once a fan of dextrose and malto, until I started doing some reading of different journals. As the clown once told me 'when science produces results, thats what matters'.

Sorry to bring off topic again :frustrate
 
I too have changed my ways on this matter, I find Bobo's argument for Low-GI extremely convincing.
 
I, like most people, went down the dextrose/maltodextrin road too. As I learned more, I started backing up my post-workout shake with a post-workout meal, usually within 60-90 minutes. Then, as yet another step, I started using Pure Vitargo in the post-workout concoction.

At present, I do not use any carbs in my post-wo shake. WPI only. Then, within an hour or so, I eat a nice meal with a good lean protein source and a starchy carb.

When I resume a bulking phase, I intend to return to the Vitargo. I've yet to do the search to find Bobo's comments on post-wo nutrition, but I assume this (using Vitargo) would not be in-line with those. I have seen Bobo comment before, something to the effect of, having a postive balance throughout the day is more important that just concentrating on post (and presumably pre) WO efforts. I certainly agree with that. But I do wonder why using high GI carbs, post-WO would be a bad thing anyway?

A quick answer or brief comments will suffice... and I'll look for more via the search. Thanks.
 
shootmeagain said:
I certainly agree with that. But I do wonder why using high GI carbs, post-WO would be a bad thing anyway?

A quick answer or brief comments will suffice... and I'll look for more via the search. Thanks.
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Its just that high GI carbs have a much greater chance of being stored as adipose tissue. Both low-GI and high-GI work, but low-GI carbs are less likely to cause a problem around the waist.
 
Giantz11 said:
I too have changed my ways on this matter, I find Bobo's argument for Low-GI extremely convincing.
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I find it very convincing also, especially for those that are weight training. I still do not think that a small(15-30grams) amount of mod-high GI carbs is necessarily a bad thing PWO. I think you need to strike a balance.
 
Look at me crying about this being beaten to death and then going on and on.. :rolleyes:

The research shows that the source of carbohydrate makes no difference except for two areas: body composition (which we all care about) and insulin resistance. If people are more comfortable using high-GI, thats their opinion and thats fine. However, a lot of people think that they need this FAST absorbing PWO-CHO source when they really don't. The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis PWO is bi-phasic. The initial fast phase lasts around 30 minutes and happens WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF INSULIN..so essentially by ingesting a FAST source of CHO, you're creating a situation that happens even without the intake.

Heres an analogy: Lets say you're on a very tight budget and need a ride to work. Why would you call a taxi when you have a car with a tank full of gas??

Why do you need to create a situation that happens no matter what?

The bottom line is that fast levels of glycogen reloading doesn't result in faster protein synthesis.

END OF MY RANT. Sorry.
 
For informational purposes then, what regulates glycogen synthesis in the bi-phasic synthesis of glycogen?
In my understanding insulin was the hormone that stimulated glycogen synthesis while glucagon and epinephrine stimulated glycogen breakdown. Now, I am sure that you have your **** wired pretty tight re: this topic. Probably have all the research articles ready to post. Its not about the quick glycogen reloading resulting in faster protein synthesis, its the secretion of insulin that does that.
Besides ride your bike to work and save the gas, two birds with one stone. Get to work and save gas. Glycogen restoration and protein synthesis.

By the way, I am not looking to argue this out. I am just saying that if you are consuming 60 grams of CHO PWO there is no harm in having 15-30 grams of that as mod-high GI carbs.
 
jonny21 said:
By the way, I am not looking to argue this out. I am just saying that if you are consuming 60 grams of CHO PWO there is no harm in having 15-30 grams of that as mod-high GI carbs.
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Neither am I. :thumbsup:
Agreed, but everybody is different. Some people with faster metabolisms (younger kids) or higher activity levels can get away with just about anything....doesn't mean its optimal. I'm a good example of somebody who can't. I honestly think for me over the long haul (the last 2 years or so), consuming low-GI carbs PWO for my 4-5 WOs per week has made a big difference.
 
jonny21 said:
Its not about the quick glycogen reloading resulting in faster protein synthesis, its the secretion of insulin that does that.
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High levels of insulin have not shown to improve protein synthesis when aminos are removed. Aminos are they key brother, not insulin.
 
As I said before, the biggest issue here is body composition and the consumption of the type of CHO (GI, nutrient density). ALL TYPES OF CHO WORK. My only argument is that if we tell people to try and consume nutrient rich forms of carbohydrate throughout the day, why would it be any different PWO? I see no reason why it should be. You wouldn't drink Coke all day if you were trying to lose weight..why would you drink one PWO?
 
DieTrying said:
High levels of insulin have not shown to improve protein synthesis when aminos are removed. Aminos are they key brother, not insulin.
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Well, I was assuming that we were not neglecting Pre-WO nutrition in this picture therefore we already have the pool of amino acids lurking about. Besides we are not talking high levels of insulin just insulin. See insulin works in two phases both contingent upon BG levels. But I agree to disagree on this one, I still believe the insulin is the key in PW protein synthesis. That's just what it does and what it is meant to do. :D

By the way I also eat low GI carbs (oats) PWO, but have them in 1 to 2 cups of fat free milk.
 
Instead of arguing, you can give both methods a try. Once you've done so, make a decision on what works best for you. You won't really know until you try it. Am I right.
 
natedogg said:
Instead of arguing, you can give both methods a try. Once you've done so, make a decision on what works best for you. You won't really know until you try it. Am I right.
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Not at all trying to argue, trying to have a friendly discussion. :) Sorry if my tone comes off otherwise.

I've personally tried both and know my results. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I just don't see how somebody could come away happier with their body comp in the long run using high-GI. Unless you're some sort of a genetic freak, high-GI carbs are more likely to be stored as fat. Thats what they do.

I think you guys see I feel pretty strongly about this one. Maybe I should stay out of this thread. :confused:
 
DieTrying said:
As I said before, the biggest issue here is body composition and the consumption of the type of CHO (GI, nutrient density). ALL TYPES OF CHO WORK. My only argument is that if we tell people to try and consume nutrient rich forms of carbohydrate throughout the day, why would it be any different PWO? I see no reason why it should be. You wouldn't drink Coke all day if you were trying to lose weight..why would you drink one PWO?
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:blink: I don't remember say to drink coke PWO. I was just thinking fat free milk, maybe some plain yogurt.

:) No animosity on this end either. This is just a lot better than taking to myself about what i am gonna eat after workout
 
jonny21 said:
:blink: I don't remember say to drink coke PWO. I was just thinking fat free milk, maybe some plain yogurt.
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No I know you didn't say coke, I was just giving an example. You do realize that skim milk and yogurt are extremely low-GI (yogurt especially). Maybe thats why you're results are so good. :lol:
 
DieTrying said:
Not at all trying to argue, trying to have a friendly discussion. :) Sorry if my tone comes off otherwise.

I've personally tried both and know my results. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I just don't see how somebody could come away happier with their body comp in the long run using high-GI. Unless you're some sort of a genetic freak, high-GI carbs are more likely to be stored as fat. Thats what they do.

I think you guys see I feel pretty strongly about this one. Maybe I should stay out of this thread. :confused:
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I'm not so much talking towards you as I am a other who are involved in or reading this thread. Myself, I'm all about trial and error. It may be a little primitive, but it works. Science isn't the end all. I know many bodybuilders who use high GI's post workout and do fine.
 
DieTrying said:
I think you guys see I feel pretty strongly about this one. Maybe I should stay out of this thread. :confused:
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Never do that. Its good to feel strongly about something, especially if it works for you. Just try to remain open to the other side, which I usually have a hard time doing. I just spend a most of my time discussing nutrition and when I hear things that are not necessarily true I'll say something.
 
DieTrying said:
No I know you didn't say coke, I was just giving an example. You do realize that skim milk and yogurt are extremely low-GI (yogurt especially). Maybe thats why you're results are so good. :lol:
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well there you go, here i am considering it moderate. :p
 
DieTrying said:
No I know you didn't say coke, I was just giving an example. You do realize that skim milk and yogurt are extremely low-GI (yogurt especially). Maybe thats why you're results are so good. :lol:
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Yogurt usually has fewer carbs than is listed on the container because much of the lactose has been converted to lactic acid by the bacteria. Moreover, don't they just consider anything that isn't protein or fat to be a carb when they're dissecting the product and counting the macronutrients?
 
I'll get back in...

DieTrying, your explanation, which you attribute at least in part to knowledge you attained from Bobo, certainly makes very good sense. In my case, the 'Coke' analogy really hit home. That is, I avoid pretty much all sugar (hence my earlier reference to even avoiding milk/lactose to some extent). This is also why I choose to use Vitargo over dextrose or maltodextrin.

However, the whole purpose in putting this concoction together is based on the belief that a certain type of carb source is best post-WO; specifically a high glycemic one. The reasons I have heard for this are:

1) To spike insulin and help drive nutrients to the muscle tissues (assumes you have ingested protein/aminos)

1a) Another opinion actually says that you ought to take the carbs first then wait a while before ingesting the protein. This is based on the idea that the 'spike' does not happen instaneously. (sp?)

2) To replenish muscle glycogen, thereby staving off catabolism and helping to facilitate recovery

Now, I have to say, I do what I do for reason #2, always having had real questions about #1/1a.

Are you saying that any carb source (for example, oats) serves the same purpose (replenishing muscle glycogen, staving off catabolism, facilitating recovery) as a high-GI source?

Or do I have that wrong?

As I mentioned earlier, at present, I am only drinking a protein shake post-WO and the following that up with a meal about 60-90 minutes later. The reason I am 'protein only' in this shake is that it just makes sense to me (a'la your Coke analogy) to avoid anything that will have a sudden or dramatic effect on your blood sugar levels, etc.

Is that, at least, sound thinking?

Lastly, could you 'net it' for us? Or tell me if I get it... I am hearing that I ought to use a post-workout protein and carb combo, but that the carbs ought to low-GI (like oats)... Right? Is that to be ingested right after training? Where does that leave my follow-up meal? Should I still do that? Seems to really help my energy anyway.

Ok, that's a lot of stuff I typed. Answer what you can/want to. I appreciate it!
 
And Bobo... if you check in on this thread. I'd like to know your opinion of Vitargo. I assume that even though it is not dextrose or maltodextrin, since it is still high-GI and causes the 'spike' it would be unnecessary and, in the case of Pure Vitargo v. oats, a big waste of money.

??
 
I'm a little confused by some of the statements that were made above regarding benefits of skim milk or oats over dextrose, I would appreciate if someone could clarify the following for me.

Is the goal of the low gi + whey or whey only followed by a meal later to have high insulin and aminos with low-normal blood glucose?

If I remember right I think skim milk has a higher insulin index than glucose (because of the protein not the lactose) but lower GI, and I assume whey would also be higher. So is the claim that controlling glucose while still spiking insulin has more positive/less negative effects than spiking both?

thanks
 
shootmeagain said:
1) To spike insulin and help drive nutrients to the muscle tissues (assumes you have ingested protein/aminos)

1a) Another opinion actually says that you ought to take the carbs first then wait a while before ingesting the protein. This is based on the idea that the 'spike' does not happen instaneously. (sp?)
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As I posted above, the insulin spike happens on its own without the need of ingested glucose. Here we go with the studies..

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
 
shootmeagain said:
Are you saying that any carb source (for example, oats) serves the same purpose (replenishing muscle glycogen, staving off catabolism, facilitating recovery) as a high-GI source?
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Yes I am saying that. :thumbsup: The main difference is that carbohydrates that have a higher GI value are more likely to be stored as fat. From the study I just posted ^: A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) . Notice the word FAT.
 
shootmeagain said:
As I mentioned earlier, at present, I am only drinking a protein shake post-WO and the following that up with a meal about 60-90 minutes later. The reason I am 'protein only' in this shake is that it just makes sense to me (a'la your Coke analogy) to avoid anything that will have a sudden or dramatic effect on your blood sugar levels, etc.

Is that, at least, sound thinking?

Lastly, could you 'net it' for us? Or tell me if I get it... I am hearing that I ought to use a post-workout protein and carb combo, but that the carbs ought to low-GI (like oats)... Right? Is that to be ingested right after training? Where does that leave my follow-up meal? Should I still do that? Seems to really help my energy anyway.
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You need carbohydrates PWO. It wouldn't be fair for me to tell you exactly how many grams of CHO PWO, but what I do is generally drink a protein shake with some skim milk, and eat some sort of low/moderate carbohydrate (oats, yams, beans, multi-grains,etc) that is very low in fat, or even better fat free.

All in all sounds like you have the idea.
 
Excellent info bro. I'll continue to research the subject... however, it is almost certain I will be making some changes to my post-WO routine.

Thanks!
 
shootmeagain said:
Excellent info bro. I'll continue to research the subject... however, it is almost certain I will be making some changes to my post-WO routine.

Thanks!
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Give it a shot and see what happens. Or even better yet, as I wrote to you in PM, sign up with Bobo.

Best of luck to you.
 
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