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Advanced Fat Loss Discussion (alpha/beta receptors)

Robboe said:
Combining a beta-2 agonist with an alpha-2 antagonist is a recipe for elevated heart rate and high blood pressure. Yeah, you feel extra stimmed out and you may feel like its burning through fat, but the potential health risks aren't worth it.

By all means use EC or CY, but i don't think EY is smart at all.
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yohimbine and the "new" yohimbine like in alpha burn are different

Alpha burn i believe i saw a study where it can lower blood pressure, dont qoute me but im pretty sure.
 
I got a bottle of SciFit Tricuts III new from a friend maybe give a run but seems TOO HIGH??

180 Capsules
Serving Size 2 Capsules

Guggul Lipid Extract (10%) (Standardized For 60mg Guggulsterones) 600mg
Guarana Extract (50%)(Standardized For 200mg Caffeine) 400mg
Coleus Forskohlii (20%) (Standardized For 60mg Forskolin) 300mg
L-Tyrosine 200mg
7-Keto DHEA 150mg
Octopamine 150mg
Yohimbe Bark Extract (8%) (Standardized For 10mg Yohimbine) 125mg
Caffeine 100mg
Bioperine 5mg
 
octopamine pretty high, but not too high on a total days worth (300)

That yohimbine may cause a systematic issue due to full spectrum of alkaloids aswell.
 
Hello guys,

I've been away for 3 years and just getting back into lifting. I've been reading the forumns for couple of weeks now and this post peeked and the interpretations have been peeking my interest.

First, let me just be clear, I mean no disrespect to anyone and I am not questioning anyone. I just like to present my views, and hopefully a small discussion of the validity and available options.

Discrepancies exist in methodology used in yohimbine and weight loss research. Considering that increases in NE levels after oral yohimbine is dose dependant (39), most studies have shown optimal dosage to be 0.2 mg/kg (8). Some studies have used much smaller dosages with less significant results. Another cause of discrepancy is timing of yohimbine administration.
The lipid-mobilizing effects of yohimbine are completely negated when administered with or after a meal
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(35). Administration of a 2-antagonists such as yohimbine increases insulin secretion during glucose stimulation. This is attributable to the blockage of the a 2-ARs on pancreatic beta-cells and to concomitant stimulation of the pancreatic beta-ARs. Yohimbine was administered to test subjects in earlier studies which caused increased insulin secretion to blunt its lipid mobilizing effects (40). However, in fasting conditions, yohimbine does not increase insulin levels. These results demonstrate the importance of nutritional status when administering a 2-antagonists as lipid-mobilizing agents.
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Considering the research that is available thus far, it is conceivable that the optimal plan for administrating yohimbine as a lipid-mobilizing agent would be early mornings after an overnight fast and several hours before breakfast. The relatively low levels of plasma glucose would not stimulate a yohimbine-potentiated increase in insulin that would otherwise negate its lipolytic effects. Utilization of body fat stores would be optimal with low insulin levels and lipid-mobilizing stimulation of the SNS. Conceivably, yohimbine administration could be followed in two to three hours by ingestion of a high-protein, high-fat meal. Protein ingestion will cause only a transient rise in plasma glucose levels with a concomitant rise in insulin secretion. Accompanying dietary fat will slow digestion and absorption of protein in the same meal. Therefore, the resulting insulin spike will only transiently blunt lipolysis.
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From reading this, I see couple of things when evaluating products:

1. For 200lbs person, can I get minimum 1 dose of 18-20mg (200lbs/2.2*0.2mg/kg) of Y to maximize the loss. It appears this is the optimal dose.

2. For maximum benefit, is should be taken early in the morning, and couple of hours before a high protein/fat meal. This is big no no to most since they want to have a meal when they wake up, even if simple protein shake. I can see the options being some product that blunts insulin release? Or would a transdermal Y work since it does not go through the blood stream the way orals do.

Now I see the discussions on alpha Y. These seem promising, but I couldn't find pure product. I need to find one that has a dosage that can be summed up to 20mg (1, 2, or 3 tabs would provide 20mg) then look into the other ingredients and the impact of increase or decrease of dose on them.

alpha-Y appears to be stronger than Y, so lower dosage might be an option. But I did not see research on dosing it.

Another question I would have is why not start with Y, then move to E with lowered Y dose (still needs to be in the early morning).
 
fadi said:
Hello guys,

I've been away for 3 years and just getting back into lifting. I've been reading the forumns for couple of weeks now and this post peeked and the interpretations have been peeking my interest.

First, let me just be clear, I mean no disrespect to anyone and I am not questioning anyone. I just like to present my views, and hopefully a small discussion of the validity and available options.





From reading this, I see couple of things when evaluating products:

1. For 200lbs person, can I get minimum 1 dose of 18-20mg (200lbs/2.2*0.2mg/kg) of Y to maximize the loss. It appears this is the optimal dose.

2. For maximum benefit, is should be taken early in the morning, and couple of hours before a high protein/fat meal. This is big no no to most since they want to have a meal when they wake up, even if simple protein shake. I can see the options being some product that blunts insulin release? Or would a transdermal Y work since it does not go through the blood stream the way orals do.

Now I see the discussions on alpha Y. These seem promising, but I couldn't find pure product. I need to find one that has a dosage that can be summed up to 20mg (1, 2, or 3 tabs would provide 20mg) then look into the other ingredients and the impact of increase or decrease of dose on them.

alpha-Y appears to be stronger than Y, so lower dosage might be an option. But I did not see research on dosing it.

Another question I would have is why not start with Y, then move to E with lowered Y dose (still needs to be in the early morning).
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David Dunn said:
Suggestion: when using Y drop down your crab intake as low as you can. Y performs most effectively in an insulin free environment.
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Because of this, should I avoid taking bcaas with Y when doing fasted AM cardio? I try to get in 10-15g of bcaas before and during the cardio session to avoid catabolism, but I am considering dropping them since they raise insulin to some degree. Is it enough to to have an impact on the Y? I know this is an old post, but it has a lot of great info in it. Thanks.
 
If you take it consistently it will build up in your tissues so you will notice an intrinsic effect even if you do raise your insulin levels somewhat. Fundamentally ensure you are in a calorie deficit and you will lose fat.
 
I am using Y only prior to fasted AM cardio. In addition, I am stacking E, C, green tea, tyrosine, RK, along with a cortisol blocker.

Would it be beneficial to add AP to my current fasted cardio protocol? I know that it acts by a completely different pathway than the other supplements, but I am slightly concerned about hypoglycemia and missing the signs of it due to the stims.
 
bj22 said:
I am using Y only prior to fasted AM cardio. In addition, I am stacking E, C, green tea, tyrosine, RK, along with a cortisol blocker.

Would it be beneficial to add AP to my current fasted cardio protocol? I know that it acts by a completely different pathway than the other supplements, but I am slightly concerned about hypoglycemia and missing the signs of it due to the stims.
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Caffeine Impairs Sugar Metabolism

Fri Mar 18, 5:21 PM ET Health - Reuters

By Anne Harding

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Caffeine intake makes insulin more resistant to changes in blood sugar levels, Canadian researchers report. This effect was observed both in patients with and those without diabetes and could not be reversed with regular exercise or weight.

But before you throw away your coffee mug -- these results may not apply to the popular caffeinated beverage, the investigators note. In fact, previous research has suggested that drinking coffee may cut the risk of diabetes.

When sugar levels in the blood get too high, insulin is released, which brings the levels back down. With insulin resistance, also known as decreased insulin sensitivity, sugar levels need to get much higher before insulin release is triggered. Over time, this resistance can cause problems and lead to diabetes.

"Through mechanisms that have yet to be firmly established, caffeine attenuates any of the beneficial effects of exercise or weight loss on insulin resistance," Dr. Robert Ross of Queens University in Kingston, Ontario, told Reuters Health.

While the clinical implications remain unclear, Ross added, the findings are a "red flag" for doctors and are particularly important for obese patients and those with diabetes.

Ross and his team evaluated sugar metabolism in 23 men before and after a three-month exercise program. Before and during the exercise program, the men were given caffeine or inactive "placebo." The subjects included eight sedentary lean men, seven obese men with type 2 diabetes, and eight obese men without diabetes.

Before the exercise program, caffeine reduced insulin sensitivity by 33 percent in the lean and obese men and 37 percent in the men with diabetes compared to placebo. After the exercise program, insulin sensitivity fell 23 percent after caffeine intake in the lean men, 26 percent in the obese men, and 36 percent in the diabetic men.

Comparison of the two study phases, showed that exercise did not improve insulin resistance related to caffeine intake.

The findings, published in the medical journal Diabetes Care, seem to contradict recent reports that coffee intake may cut the risk of diabetes, Ross noted. However, coffee contains several other substances that may affect sugar metabolism, such as antioxidants, potassium and magnesium. "When you give somebody caffeine without all of the other substances that are in coffee you have a very different situation," he added.

SOURCE: Diabetes Care, March 2005.
 
There is limited glucose in my system anyways during fasting cardio. If caffeine actually lowers insulin response to glucose, it seems beneficial for what i am looking for.

Any word on combining AP + yohimbine & ephedrine prior to fasted cardio?
 
bj22 said:
There is limited glucose in my system anyways during fasting cardio. If caffeine actually lowers insulin response to glucose, it seems beneficial for what i am looking for.

Any word on combining AP + yohimbine & ephedrine prior to fasted cardio?
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AP don`t much for me but you can try it?
 
bj22 said:
There is limited glucose in my system anyways during fasting cardio. If caffeine actually lowers insulin response to glucose, it seems beneficial for what i am looking for.

Any word on combining AP + yohimbine & ephedrine prior to fasted cardio?
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Not sure I have seen that done...but I imagine it would not make your GI tract feel very nice
 
bj22 said:
There is limited glucose in my system anyways during fasting cardio. If caffeine actually lowers insulin response to glucose, it seems beneficial for what i am looking for.

Any word on combining AP + yohimbine & ephedrine prior to fasted cardio?
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Using E and Y together is not a sensible idea. You may "feel" like you can handle it, but you're not doing yourself any favors.
 
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