270 versus 288

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Patrick Arnold said:
you bastard. i see your avatar and i go to your profile to see more pics and i get this beefy bald dude. that **** ain't nice
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Pat - you know damn well God don't make chemical engineers that look like Marzia

You iz on crack, maing.

(I've got pics up in the pics section - somewhere....)
 
B5150 said:
This issue of material quality is most certainly not exclusive to Epi/Havoc. Every sponsor on this board who has developed a product with some exotic obscure (or not) material is suspect and or susceptible to these very same issues (including retailers who provide bulk powders) as well. Popularity, charm, sponsorship, free tester products, special sales, board member discounts and free T-shirts do not exclude any from this. If we are going to have a "consumer advocate vigilante group" then lets be sure that we don't target just those who are in competition and or with an agenda.
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normally any attempt at a group devoted to objective consumer testing of products has failed because of litigation brought upon by companies whose products have failed

however, the nature of these prosteroids (which fail to meet legal requirements as a supplement) make it so the possiblity of legal actions are eliminated. So the opportunity for an independent group devoted to validating the quality and identity of this stuff is there
 
Patrick, what do you think about this new Furaguno that just came out? Like you said, most of us do not know our chemisty and so we just buy based on the hype the company throws out. So what do you think about this one?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
all well said. i would rather do this by email however. i am on house arrest and am stuck in apartment all weekend. i do not have conferencing capabilities on my cell phone and my home phone is dedicated to my home guard ankle bracelt unit.

so do you think there is any problem with doing this by email, with all parties copied? It would leave a record so that nobody can falsely report what was said
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I am for anything that will end this debacle ... the only thing about emailing is that it'll probably end up with several hundred emails, because of the fact that emailing is not interactive enough....

I, along with others, would just like to know what EXACTLY is in epi/havoc/hem ....

With that ever happen, as of late occurrences, NO...hopefully Im wrong

EDIT: just re-read the post...in that case then i guess someone will have to agree to let your guy foot the convo, while IBE foot's the bill ... I do not see why that would be a problem with any involved, since it MAY end this soap opera...
 
Patrick Arnold said:
all well said. i would rather do this by email however. i am on house arrest and am stuck in apartment all weekend. i do not have conferencing capabilities on my cell phone and my home phone is dedicated to my home guard ankle bracelt unit.

so do you think there is any problem with doing this by email, with all parties copied? It would leave a record so that nobody can
falsely report what was said
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I would like to say that this is, by far, the best solution. As PA said, the 'masses' can see any resolution, or more possibly lack thereof, verbatim. Then hopefully this smear can get off the boards [not insinuating anybody is the cause, just that it is a debacle]
 
jmh80 said:
Pat - you know damn well God don't make chemical engineers that look like Marzia

You iz on crack, maing.

(I've got pics up in the pics section - somewhere....)
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there have been rare exceptions. brains and sexiness is a very hot combination. you don't wanna have one of these girls in your chem classes, you will fail
 
TheMyth said:
Patrick, what do you think about this new Furaguno that just came out? Like you said, most of us do not know our chemisty and so we just buy based on the hype the company throws out. So what do you think about this one?
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i don't think this will be a very good anabolic. i think without the methylation at C17 it will be weak. I also think the cholesterol lowering claims are misleading. the androgenic anticholesteremic drugs of the past (furazobol etc.) were marketed before the medical community was aware of the importance of HDL and LDL cholesterol fractions. These drugs lowered total cholesterol alright but the lowering was of HDL primarily so you ended up with a undesirable HDL/LDL ratio. Not good

And lest you think this is a biased opinion, the guys that run this company are some of my best friends in the industry. They used to be ergopharm salesmen in fact.

they have other very good products though
 
hardknock said:
I am for anything that will end this debacle ... the only thing about emailing is that it'll probably end up with several hundred emails, because of the fact that emailing is not interactive enough....

I, along with others, would just like to know what EXACTLY is in epi/havoc/hem ....

With that ever happen, as of late occurrences, NO...hopefully Im wrong

EDIT: just re-read the post...in that case then i guess someone will have to agree to let your guy foot the convo, while IBE foot's the bill ... I do not see why that would be a problem with any involved, since it MAY end this soap opera...
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do you REALLY think this will end the soap opera? come on. it will only escalate it. you know this
 
Mulletsoldier said:
I would like to say that this is, by far, the best solution. As PA said, the 'masses' can see any resolution, or more possibly lack thereof, verbatim. Then hopefully this smear can get off the boards [not insinuating anybody is the cause, just that it is a debacle]
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Alright then. so now i guess we are awaiting IBE's response to this offer.

to summarize:

1) we conduct this conversation with the Doc by email, with all relevant parties CC'ed

2) My analytical guru Matt (carcinogen) participates since he was the one that did most of the hands on analysis of the epi, havoc, and hemaguno in my lab and also has extensive expertise in the technical intricacies of GC/MS, HPLC, and other analytical techniques

3) we allow members to view all exchanges, so nothing is hidden
 
Patrick Arnold said:
you miss the point of this. there is no reason why someone should not buy and use either one of these products.

this is a chemistry debate. as a chemist i find it very interesting. it is a debate about the interpretation of analytical data.

try to distance this from any endorsement or condemnation of any product
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on your end yes, but there are a lot of people who just have jumped on the bandwagon saying "this product sucks" and im trying to keep it civil.
 
B5150 said:
This issue of material quality is most certainly not exclusive to Epi/Havoc. Every sponsor on this board who has developed a product with some exotic obscure (or not) material is suspect and or susceptible to these very same issues (including retailers who provide bulk powders) as well. Popularity, charm, sponsorship, free tester products, special sales, board member discounts and free T-shirts do not exclude any from this. If we are going to have a "consumer advocate vigilante group" then lets be sure that we don't target just those who are in competition and or with an agenda. Every one is suspect and should be "audited" for quality purposes. Whether intentionally or ignorantly, manufacture specification defects, deviations and or tampering that reach the consumer are not exclusive to just one company. Ask our cats and dogs how they feel about their food supply and industry controls and regulations.As knowledgeable as you may or may not be this has to be the most intelligent thing I have seen you write in my some 5 years reading your posts. Pleasant surprise :)
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very very true ,QC should be taken in consideraton by ALL.:cheers:
 
And with that...my backgound is Quality Assurance. OEM, Aerospace, Semi-Conductor, BioMed. Specializing in process quality and metrology in the CNC machining industry. Background also includes injection and die mold, as well as automated assembly, material procurement quality and new product quality protocol. Employed throughout all areas of quality assurance. Positions held over the last 20 yrs in the field have included but are not limited to inspector, technician, engineer and manager with ~10yrs in leadership position. Availability is contingent upon satisfactory compensation package. Salary in non-negotiable. Willing to relocate. Resume available upon request.

I am a tremendously unfulfilled memebr of the blue collar working class who would cherish the opportunity to work in the field of his passion.

Can you believe...what a shameless plug. :toofunny:
 
I dont know,maybe Im missing somthing but wasnt there a [rumor?] that PAT bought a bottle of EPI and had it tested and then asked for his money back--and decided not to put those results public?---So now without putting out those results are you saying that your results dont matchup with the results of the DOC that IBE hired?--Or you dont agree with their DOCS methods?---Or you dont think hes legit?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
just for the record, i never suggested that epistane is ineffective and that it might not contain an effective anabolic. I never suggested that people should not buy the stuff should they find the anecdotal positive feedback convincing. It very well might contain something effective

This to me is a chemistry debate, an investigation to figure out what compound is in what. Not an attempt to make people stop buying someones product
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Exactly why I put that little tidbit in that post. I've seen some people asking stuff like "well, should I throw out product X or product Y?". And, I didn't want my words in anyway to suggest that. Bloodwork and results seem to be good enough for the products in question.
 
skull said:
I dont know,maybe Im missing somthing but wasnt there a [rumor?] that PAT bought a bottle of EPI and had it tested and then asked for his money back--and decided not to put those results public?---So now without putting out those results are you saying that your results dont matchup with the results of the DOC that IBE hired?--Or you dont agree with their DOCS methods?---Or you dont think hes legit?
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rumors rumors

i did buy a bottle of epistane shortly after i got out of prison. I started to take it. a few days after i shot it in my GC/MS and did not feel comfortable with the results. I was doubtful the product contained the right ingredient

So i emailed IBE asking for a refund. i mentioned my findings to them. i got no response after a few tries. i started to get pissed

so i asked them for a refund on the internet. i made NO mention of my analytical findings

then Dr. D came on and attacked me and foolishly mentioned that i had tested it and what i said about the results. After that, all hell broke loose

oh, and my MS results were sent several times to IBE. they were also posted on bb.com a couple of times.

and thats the real story

would you like for me to post the results here, to show i am not lying? they are dated so easily verfied
 
Patrick Arnold said:
rumors rumors

i did buy a bottle of epistane shortly after i got out of prison. I started to take it. a few days after i shot it in my GC/MS and did not feel comfortable with the results. I was doubtful the product contained the right ingredient

So i emailed IBE asking for a refund. i mentioned my findings to them. i got no response after a few tries. i started to get pissed

so i asked them for a refund on the internet. i made NO mention of my analytical findings

then Dr. D came on and attacked me and foolishly mentioned that i had tested it and what i said about the results. After that, all hell broke loose

oh, and my MS results were sent several times to IBE. they were also posted on bb.com a couple of times.

and thats the real story

would you like for me to post the results here, to show i am not lying? they are dated so easily verfied
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NO--but I would like to know if the tests you did are the same the IBE doc did --and if the bottle you tested was one of those 200 that IBE said where "duds"---[if the ansewer to #1 is yes and #2 is no then I would have to say that you have a pretty good idea whats going on here ] and this is why your going after this so hard
 
skull said:
NO--but I would like to know if the tests you did are the same the IBE doc did --and if the bottle you tested was one of those 200 that IBE said where "duds"---[if the ansewer to #1 is yes and #2 is no then I would have to say that you have a pretty good idea whats going on here ] and this is why your going after this so hard
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I did GC/MS on a couple of epistane products. I do not know which batches they were. They very well could have been these duds

It could be that the new batches of epistane contain the same stuff that havoc and hemaguno have now - that is, they could now have the stuff i believe most closely tests out right

If true then all would have been well if IBE just stopped there. Hell they could have suggested i get a bottle and test it and i would have said that they now have the right stuff and all is well. Coulda put this behind all of us

But for some reason they had to put out this f'ed up letter.
 
Reading about this Havoc/epistane has been like watching a mini-version of Monica Lewisnky congressional hearings.

Some parallels:

Clinton = IBE
Monica Lewinsky = customers (remember, we were all wondering if Bill screwed Monica)
Congressional republicans = Patrick Arnold
Monica's semen stained dress = epistane
Ken Starr's investigation report = Mike's testing result (remember, Ken Starr's report was posted on the Interent)
 
Patrick Arnold said:
IBE could have handled this a completely different way and there would have never been a problem
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As could be have been done for said others who have a following that respect their opinion, posted on a certain dramatic bodybuilding .com website asking for a refund???
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I did GC/MS on a couple of epistane products. I do not know which batches they were. They very well could have been these duds

It could be that the new batches of epistane contain the same stuff that havoc and hemaguno have now - that is, they could now have the stuff i believe most closely tests out right

If true then all would have been well if IBE just stopped there. Hell they could have suggested i get a bottle and test it and i would have said that they now have the right stuff and all is well. Coulda put this behind all of us

But for some reason they had to put out this f'ed up letter.
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Well, if you where to buy a bottle [or even get sent one for free] from this new batch thats coming out on the 4/27 and test it.---IBE could not say it was a "DUD 'because all thats been taken care of .[if not, I know you tested many already]Other than that I dont see you getting anywhere with their DOC and this will go on forever--which is probably good for BIZ-:duel:
 
virtualcyber said:
Reading about this Havoc/epistane has been like watching a mini-version of Monica Lewisnky congressional hearings.

Some parallels:

Clinton = IBE
Monica Lewinsky = customers (remember, we were all wondering if Bill screwed Monica)
Congressional republicans = Patrick Arnold
Monica's semen stained dress = epistane
Ken Starr's investigation report = Mike's testing result (remember, Ken Starr's report was posted on the Interent)
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i wanna be clinton. at least he was gettin some. the republicans are all too uptight to git down
 
neoborn said:
As could be have been done for said others who have a following that respect their opinion, posted on a certain dramatic bodybuilding .com website asking for a refund???
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alright man, look i was in a pissy mood that day and took it out on IBE. I felt insulted that they were ignoring my email requests and thought i would put them on the spot. i paid 65 bucks for that stuff and although you may think i am rich supplement man in reality i owe tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees so i am currently living on a tight budget. I am not Jack Owoc or Tim Patterson here.

maybe i should have been more patient. but do you really think i ever imagined it would have blown up into such a mess?
 
skull said:
Well, if you where to buy a bottle [or even get sent one for free] from this new batch thats coming out on the 4/27 and test it.---IBE could not say it was a "DUD 'because all thats been taken care of .[if not, I know you tested many already]Other than that I dont see you getting anywhere with their DOC and this will go on forever--which is probably good for BIZ-:duel:
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i like the idea of free more than buying one

i can test the stuff and if it shows 288 then i will give it the PA stamp of approval.

and then i will put my cat on a cycle. she is getting fat.
 
I, for one, am glad that Patrick got involved.

I am grateful that I got to know which legal steroid products are real and likely to work. I was so royally screwed with M-diene and some cheap M1t ripoffs.
 
I am sort of curious.

(1) what does epistane actually contain?

(2) Have the logs of epistane's use just based on placebo effect? I don't think it is, which leads me to think that epistane contains something active.
 
virtualcyber said:
I am sort of curious.

(2) Have the logs of epistane's use just based on placebo effect? I don't think it is, which leads me to think that epistane contains something active.
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The logs are so numerous across all sorts of different bulletin boards that I'd rule out placebo. This product reduces gyno while simultaneously building muscle. Lots of things will help with muscle growth but this is the only product I'm aware of that has extensive reports of gyno shrinkage/elimination. The people who have gotten bloodwork (and posted it) have shown it to be pretty darn mild on lipids and liver.

Setting aside the debate about what the active is, it clearly seems to be effective with little to no (at least short-term) side effects.
 
Was shameless, but still ;)

They say "strike while the irons hot"
B5150 said:
And with that...my backgound is Quality Assurance. OEM, Aerospace, Semi-Conductor, BioMed. Specializing in process quality and metrology in the CNC machining industry. Background also includes injection and die mold, as well as automated assembly, material procurement quality and new product quality protocol. Employed throughout all areas of quality assurance. Positions held over the last 20 yrs in the field have included but are not limited to inspector, technician, engineer and manager with ~10yrs in leadership position. Availability is contingent upon satisfactory compensation package. Salary in non-negotiable. Willing to relocate. Resume available upon request.

I am a tremendously unfulfilled memebr of the blue collar working class who would cherish the opportunity to work in the field of his passion.

Can you believe...what a shameless plug. :toofunny:
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yeahright said:
The logs are so numerous across Setting aside the debate about what the active is, it clearly seems to be effective with little to no (at least short-term) side effects.
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You have a point there.

On a sidenote, the fact that people has identified the actives inside Havoc as "epistane" doesn't really tell me a lot. There just has not been extensive research on epi. To me, both Havoc and Epistane are pretty mysterious stuff. It is not like var, for which one can find many many studies.

BUT yet, I still want to know what is inside Epistane. Call it a curiosity. If I purchase Epistane-like PH, I want to know whether I am getting 270 or 288.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
alright man, look i was in a pissy mood that day and took it out on IBE. I felt insulted that they were ignoring my email requests and thought i would put them on the spot. i paid 65 bucks for that stuff and although you may think i am rich supplement man in reality i owe tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees so i am currently living on a tight budget. I am not Jack Owoc or Tim Patterson here.

maybe i should have been more patient. but do you really think i ever imagined it would have blown up into such a mess?
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<3. S'all good, all in all just reading what you say and enjoying the debate. I don't harbor hate towards you at all or really any on these forums. It's all very entertaining for me. I want you to know I like your posts and as you have much respect from others you get respect from me just by association. I think you and I both know there are better ways to deal with issues like that and I also like to think that if you did know it was going to cause all this boring bullsh!t then you would have chosen differently. You do seem like a smart man yes.

Please make another smart decision and do your part to end this fiasco. It honestly looks to me like your stalling on the call with the Dr., I have no problem with matt being there with you and I'm sure IBE don't either. Just please make the call and get to the bottom of this so everyone can agree what is going on and what is in this product. Don't stall, do your part :)

<3 PA.:head:
 
I didnt type that it would, I typed that it MAY end this debacle...im actually hoping that it will....
Somewhere, that will remain nameless for now, but the same thing has been happening with this oxyguno......
 
poopypants said:
doubt it neo.... dead subject just let it be, for the love of tony danza..
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Fck no, I need closure. I need results, conclusions and reasons about why this issue is now resolved and no one seems to give a flying fck about this anymore? if this is the result then these threads should be locked and deleted by mods as soon as they are started....fck'n bullsh!t.:smite:
 
dude lay off the caffine and read my other post in the ch 3 tthread, aint no point in arguing semantics, its all opinions right now and A phone call will not end this, only a 3rd party verified standard grown and then a gc/ms done on it will do, just friggin chill, someones woekin on it.
 
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