1-andro

[Knowbull]

Thanks for clarifying that guys. This is need to know stuff for anyone that has an interest, fortunately not only is this your interest in some cases it is your avocation and that is a tremendous draw.

 

[Trauma1]

Most guys had pretty bad back pumps with the original 1-AD and 4-AD combo and even with the two seperate.... maybe not as bad as some others but more then others.

Taurine has always been suggested as a remedy for preventing back pumps as it allows more water to be absorbed into the muscle cell and keep it from being leached. The same is my reasoning for using Poseidon or an electrolyte supplement in order to keep the muscle cells well hydrated and less likely to cramp (pump) up and cause pain, I have used Taurine with some effect (had to dose extremely high) and Poseidon with much better results.

Not to hi-jack the thread everyone, but i did a segment in a few different threads on discussing the etiology of back pumps/cramping. It primarily consists of either a loss of osmotic extracellular cations (mainly sodium), or a faulty mechanism of the calcium, or sodium/potassium ATPase pumps within muscle cell membranes.

Sodium or (NaCL) is the main cation (Positively charged ion) in extracelluar fluid (or inside your arteries/veins/capillaries.) Sodium's concentration is over 10x higher in extracellular fluid than intracellular fluid regions, and it is the primary osmotically charged particle responsible for fluid shifting/transition and maintenance within the body.

Potassium (K) in the main cation (Positively charged ion) residing in intracellular fluid (or directly inside the cells themselves.) Potassium's concentration is over 30x great in intracelluar fluid, than extracellular fluid.

The concentration differences between potassium and sodium across cell membranes create an electrochemical gradient known as the membrane potential. A cell's membrane potential is maintained by ion pumps in the cell membrane, especially the sodium/potassium-ATPase pumps. These pumps use ATP to pump sodium out of the cell in exchange for potassium. This pump system is largely responsible for the shifting of fluids in and out of cells as well.

The large proportion of energy dedicated to maintaining sodium/potassium concentration gradients emphasizes the importance of this function in sustaining life.

You're on the right track with the taurine, poops. It does allow for more adequate electrolyte transfer between the extracellular and intracellular compartments, and maintaing the regulation of membrane potential. This can greatly contribute to the maintenance of sufficient osmotic transfer of fluids while potentially preventing a good degree of significant muscle pumps/cramps we may experience.

Taurine: Taurine is an amino sulfonic acid that is found in high levels in the skeletal and heart muscle of humans, as well as in white blood cells, and the central nervous system. Taurine aids the movement of potassium, sodium, calcium, and magnesium in and out of cells and thus helps generate nerve impulses. Muscle pumps/cramping occurs when there is a disruption of the movement of these electrolytes in and out of muscle cells. See below for a more detailed explanation of the pathway.

-Fluid/electrolyte intake: It is also very important that you keep your fluid and electrolyte(sodium,potassium,calcium,magnesium) intake sufficient throughout the day. Fluid/electrolyte loss through training depletes interstitial fluids (basically the fluid that lies directly outside of the cells) which also attributes to muscle pump/cramping issues, and here's how:

Painful muscle pumps/cramps primarily occur due to loss of the osmotically active particles(mainly NaCL or salt) outside the cell within what's called the extracellular compartment. This can easily result through insensible fluid loss (sweating out water and Nacl experienced during training), or inadequate fluid volume/electrolytes to begin with. This causes a disturbance in the osmotic balance (pull) of fluid moving in and out of muscle cells. This can then result in muscle cells excessively swelling (because they contain more osmotically active particles and fluid retention as a result inside the cell) and you develop very painful pumps due to inadequate compensatory mechanisms of fluid transfer out of the cell back into the extracellular compartment. This occurs because your body may not be able to regulate homeostatic osmotic fluid trasfer. This process can also lead to problems with the calcium, or sodium/potassium pumps inside muscle cells. This can potentially cause VERY painful cramps due to the muscle potentially being locked in a contractive state.

This is why adequate fluid and electrolye intake during training is very important (to replace lost fluid volume and osmotically charged particles) to maintain this balance and prevent these issues.

 

[poopypants]

thanks trauma! if anyone could back that up it would be you :thumbsup:....

Well I have some taurine on the way.... 500g worth for my upcoming Epi cycle :hammer:

I will most likely be picking this up when it goes on sale this sat to put it to the test and stack it with my Epi as I have run multiple Epi cycles I should be able to differentiate the effects from a normal run..... things could get interesting.

 

[Trauma1]

thanks trauma! if anyone could back that up it would be you :thumbsup:....

Well I have some taurine on the way.... 500g worth for my upcoming Epi cycle :hammer:

I will most likely be picking this up when it goes on sale this sat to put it to the test and stack it with my Epi as I have run multiple Epi cycles I should be able to differentiate the effects from a normal run..... things could get interesting.

It should be very interesting running a duel log. Especially, if we use slightly different approaches to compare/contrast noted effects.

If anything, it should be a very helpful log to those following along in planning their cycles.

 

[R-Mac]

Hey Just wanted to let everyone know I am on well not anymore but I was running MMV2 and 1-t cyp and it was Amazing if 1-Andro goes to 1-T than I believe this stack would be Awesome.

you talking mmv2 and PP's 1-t?....I like the sound of that

 

[DAdams91982]

It should be very interesting running a duel log. Especially, if we use slightly different approaches to compare/contrast noted effects.

If anything, it should be a very helpful log to those following along in planning their cycles.

Awww... how cute... I feel the love in here.

Koombaya anyone?

Adams

 

[Trauma1]

Awww... how cute... I feel the love in here.

Koombaya anyone?

Adams

When it really comes down to it, we're all a "Band of Brothers!"

 

[joeymutz]

Not to hi-jack the thread everyone, but i did a segment in a few different threads on discussing the etiology of back pumps/cramping. It primarily consists of either a loss of osmotic extracellular cations (mainly sodium), or a faulty mechanism of the calcium, or sodium/potassium ATPase pumps within muscle cell membranes.




You're on the right track with the taurine, poops. It does allow for more adequate electrolyte transfer between the extracellular and intracellular compartments, and maintaing the regulation of membrane potential. This can greatly contribute to the maintenance of sufficient osmotic transfer of fluids while potentially preventing a good degree of significant muscle pumps/cramps we may experience.

Thanks for the info trauma, That is exactly what i was looking for.

 

[joeymutz]

cause they do studies on guys running steroids that need to alleviate back pumps

I do post studies for much of the info I post... search my posts and youll see this. But this is beyond anecdotal and the fact that Eric has not heard of taurine used in this regard is baffling to me... its been suggested for YEARS. Doesnt mean anything less about his knowledge but this is still widely known and used in this application.

Thanks for playing.

Trauma posted what i was looking for. Didn't mean to get anyone all worked up nor did I know we were playing any games. Just trying to learn why things work the way they do instead of listening to broteligence. I've used taurine a couple years ago to alleviate back pumps i just never knew why it worked. Now I do.

 

[mixedup]

you talking mmv2 and PP's 1-t?....I like the sound of that

No Real 1-T cyp (inject) and mmv2. from what I have read PP's new product should convert to 1-T pretty readily so I'm thinking this would be a great legal stack.

 

[LG Sciences]

Not sure what you mean a weaker estrogen. You don't run DHN, it is a conversion product. Also, we are not talking about Tren here, we are talking about Nandralone. With Tren, it might be prolactin, upon which quite honestly, I am not up to speed. I am talking about "Deca ****" specifically here. Yes, a 5aReductase inhibitor would help this quite a bit, which is why we would include it, but it then stops the positives of DHN like hairloss/regrowth and prostate reduction.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Not sure what you mean a weaker estrogen. You don't run DHN, it is a conversion product. Also, we are not talking about Tren here, we are talking about Nandralone. With Tren, it might be prolactin, upon which quite honestly, I am not up to speed. I am talking about "Deca ****" specifically here. Yes, a 5aReductase inhibitor would help this quite a bit, which is why we would include it, but it then stops the positives of DHN like hairloss/regrowth and prostate reduction.

I’ve been talking about the cause of gyno from progesterone related compounds like nandrolone and trenbolone the whole time… I understand the connection between DHN and Deca D*ck. Miscommunication I guess…

So trauma, what supplemental electrolyte complex are you suggesting for the back pump?

-Pp

 

[R-Mac]

No Real 1-T cyp (inject) and mmv2. from what I have read PP's new product should convert to 1-T pretty readily so I'm thinking this would be a great legal stack.

didnt mean to confuse u...I know you were talking cyp with mmv2 is what u did.....I was asking if you were NOW talking PP's 1-T with mmv2 as a good idea

 

[Trauma1]

So trauma, what supplemental electrolyte complex are you suggesting for the back pump?

-Pp

In regard to a means of prevention?

Replacement of insensible sodium/water loss during training definitely plays a factor in the equation of muscle/back pumps. I believe the development of an electrolyte/ATP support matrix designed to maintain and replace osmoticaly active particles, as well as maintaining the membrane potential enforced by ion pumps such as the sodium/potassium ATPase pump would be ideal.

It would take some research to come up with an ideal formula/mixture, as well as an effective sustained delivery, but probably would be a good adjunct to some cycles. In all honesty, poseidon is a fantastic adjunct in helping to prevent this imo.....especially when taurine is added into the mix.

 

[mixedup]

didnt mean to confuse u...I know you were talking cyp with mmv2 is what u did.....I was asking if you were NOW talking PP's 1-T with mmv2 as a good idea

Yes I think it would be a great idea I think this will be my next cycle. might even throw some h-drol or m-drol since the other two are non methyls

 

[Urban Monk]

How much taurine are you going to take daily poop?

 

[poopypants]

5g.

actually just got my 500g taurine, and 500g creatine

I also just ordred some Xtend (2:1:1 Bcaa ratio L-luecine:L-isoluecine:L-valine, 1g Cit malate and 2.5g glutamine) some extra L-Luecine(100g) and some Beta Alanine (200g) as well as some glycerol monostearate. I also plan on getting some Poseidon as soon as I have the ability.

Ill dose pre-intra workout
10g Creamono
5g Taurine
1 serving Extend
3-4g additional L-luecine
2-4g Beta alanine (will ramp up as resistance to tingling builds)
2-3g GMS
1 serving Poseidon once/if I get it.

Ill also likely dose
5g taurine mornings with my shake and also
1 serving Poseidon again once/if I get it.

heres poseidons profile incase its of interest

Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 1 Scoop (Approximately 5 grams)
Servings per Container: 90


Ammount per
Sodium 60 mg
Potassium 350 mg
Vitamin C 750 mg
Niacin 75 mg
Vitamin B-6 5 mg
Vitamin B-12 1000 mcg
Vitamin B-5 10 mg
Magnesium 150 mg
Zinc 7 mg
*Poseidon Complex 4999 mg **

 

[Trauma1]

5g.

actually just got my 500g taurine, and 500g creatine

I also just ordred some Xtend (2:1:1 Bcaa ratio L-luecine:L-isoluecine:L-valine, 1g Cit malate and 2.5g glutamine) some extra L-Luecine(100g) and some Beta Alanine (200g) as well as some glycerol monostearate. I also plan on getting some Poseidon as soon as I have the ability.

Ill dose pre-intra workout
10g Creamono
5g Taurine
1 serving Extend
3-4g additional L-luecine
2-4g Beta alanine (will ramp up as resistance to tingling builds)
2-3g GMS
1 serving Poseidon once/if I get it.

Ill also likely dose
5g taurine mornings with my shake and also
1 serving Poseidon again once/if I get it.

heres poseidons profile incase its of interest

Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 1 Scoop (Approximately 5 grams)
Servings per Container: 90


Ammount per
Sodium 60 mg
Potassium 350 mg
Vitamin C 750 mg
Niacin 75 mg
Vitamin B-6 5 mg
Vitamin B-12 1000 mcg
Vitamin B-5 10 mg
Magnesium 150 mg
Zinc 7 mg
*Poseidon Complex 4999 mg **

Very well thought out poops. Poseidon really is an amazing supplement. The combination of ingredients is impressive.

That combo should really assist you with potential muscle pumps issues. I'm putting together something similar for my cycle.

Tis going to be a good ole time, brother! :cheers:

 

[poopypants]

Very well thought out poops. Poseidon really is an amazing supplement. The combination of ingredients is impressive.

That combo should really assist you with potential muscle pumps issues. I'm putting together something similar for my cycle.

Tis going to be a good ole time, brother! :cheers:

yes I doubt Ill even incur a single muscle pump even with my planned doses but more so then alleviating that it will allow for super cellular hydration which in turn means more everything in the cells, androgens and nutrients alike, should make for an optimal cycle for sure.

I get more and more excited the more we talk bout it... cant wait to get this started!

 

[Eric Potratz]

yes I doubt Ill even incur a single muscle pump even with my planned doses but more so then alleviating that it will allow for super cellular hydration which in turn means more everything in the cells, androgens and nutrients alike, should make for an optimal cycle for sure.

I get more and more excited the more we talk bout it... cant wait to get this started!

You better get excited poopypants... this sh*t is gonna rock your world...

What dose of epi will you be running?

-Pp

 

[poopypants]

well I ran it alongside of 30mg of Dbol before at 60mg ED for 6 weeks and it was great so Im planning on ramping up to that dose.

something like this.

Epistane
30/30/40/50/60/60/(60/60 may or may not go 8 weeks)
DHEA TD
2x60mged/2x60mged/0/0/0/0/(2x60mged/2x60mged)
1-T
0/0/rec/rec/rec/rec

 

[Trauma1]

You better get excited poopypants... this sh*t is gonna rock your world...

What dose of epi will you be running?

-Pp

I'm going to be running the 1-T with AX (Pheraplex) myself here shortly. I'm probably going to bridge that into havoc or superdrol. I have dermacrine on hand, so i'll be using that as well until the 1-T arrives.

Can't wait to get this going. :head:

 

[Eric Potratz]

I'm going to be running the 1-T with AX (Pheraplex) myself here shortly. I'm probably going to bridge that into havoc or superdrol. I have dermacrine on hand, so i'll be using that as well until the 1-T arrives.

Can't wait to get this going. :head:

Sounds great Trauma... we are all looking forward to it.

-Pp

 

[Royd The Noyd]

I'm going to be running the 1-T with AX (Pheraplex) myself here shortly. I'm probably going to bridge that into havoc or superdrol. I have dermacrine on hand, so i'll be using that as well until the 1-T arrives.

Can't wait to get this going. :head:

Phera and 1-T would be boss.

 

[mixedup]

I'm going to be running the 1-T with AX (Pheraplex) myself here shortly. I'm probably going to bridge that into havoc or superdrol. I have dermacrine on hand, so i'll be using that as well until the 1-T arrives.

Can't wait to get this going. :head:

Dammit why do I have to be in PCT right when this gets here LOL

 

[Urban Monk]

So what are the best combos so far?

1-T and Havoc?

What are some of the 19-Nor compounds?

 

[joeymutz]

well no combo's have been tested yet. These are all just ideas. It also depends what you goals are to decide what to run. Think of 1-t as your test base. Then something like havoc would be dry gains(no bloat). Something like Phera-plex would be wet gains
(some bloat) great for an all out bulk.

 

[Trauma1]

well no combo's have been tested yet. These are all just ideas. It also depends what you goals are to decide what to run. Think of 1-t as your test base. Then something like havoc would be dry gains(no bloat). Something like Phera-plex would be wet gains
(some bloat) great for an all out bulk.

Exactly. I haven't decided whether or not to bridge it into havoc or superdrol yet. If i did, it should eliminate some of the bloat. I'll see how it goes and make my call on the run. If i'm doing great with the pheraplex and 1-T, then i'll continue that route.

 

[Trauma1]

Sounds great Trauma... we are all looking forward to it.

-Pp

Yes sir, i can't wait myself! :head:

 

[Eric Potratz]

Also, I want to clear something up that guys seem to be confused about.

Androsterone is NOT adrenosterone (11-oxo)

So again, 1-androsterone is nothing like 11-oxo (adrenosterone). 1-androsterone is an anabolic hormone that converts to 1-Testosterone… very different stuff.

-Pp

 

[Trauma1]

Phera and 1-T would be boss.

It should be awesome. Perfect timing for my cycle, haha!

 

[Urban Monk]

I've never used PH's before. What is better, dry or "wet" gains?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

 

[Eric Potratz]

I've never used PH's before. What is better, dry or "wet" gains?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

Dry means no estrogen conversion, and wet means estrogen conversion.

More mass, pumps and water retention generally come from “wet” hormones, whereas hard solid gains appear to come from “dry” compounds. Combining the two gives a nice balance of overall high quality gains. [eg, 1-T]

-Pp

 

[jmh80]

When is this going on sale, PP?

 

[Eric Potratz]

When is this going on sale, PP?

Presale starts tomorrow (the 1st)

As of right now we expect to ship on the 10th or 11th.

www.primordialperformance.com

-Pp

 

[slowprogress]

Didn't see this posted anywhere yet,

:woohoo:

 

[Trauma1]

My cycle is now complete. 1-T on the way baby!! :head:

 

[JBerto]

Presale starts tomorrow (the 1st)

As of right now we expect to ship on the 10th or 11th.

Primordial Performance

-Pp

Do you ship to Europe?

What is the better delivery method to Europe FedEx or USPS?

 

[mixedup]

How long will one bottle last?

 

[jmh80]

Will NP have this for sale?

 

[Urban Monk]

Dry means no estrogen conversion, and wet means estrogen conversion.

More mass, pumps and water retention generally come from “wet” hormones, whereas hard solid gains appear to come from “dry” compounds. Combining the two gives a nice balance of overall high quality gains. [eg, 1-T]

-Pp

Is estrogen conversion bad? This is what causes gyno, etc right?

 

[poopypants]

excess estrogen conversion is bad. some is absolutely neccesary to support health a strong libido and faster mass gains.

 

[Urban Monk]

So would it be fair to say that beginners should start w/ dryer compounds? Are they also easier to recover from, say if only using something like sustain alpha for PCT.

I personally would not use PH's, but it is an interesting thing to learn about.

 

[JBerto]

IMO, 1-T will be perfect to stack with a dry PH, not with a wet PH since 1-T is slightly wet itself.

I think 1-T + H-Drol must be safe and effective.

Or 1-T + SDrol if we want something more "hardcore"

 

[gettingully1]

how long could you run 1-t for? could you run two bottles for one 6-8 week cycle?

 

[Urban Monk]

Eric has said a 6 week cycle, running "heavy" doses is acceptable.

 

[EIC]

how long could you run 1-t for? could you run two bottles for one 6-8 week cycle?

Yep. That's pretty much what Eric had in mind, I think: Two bottles back to back for 6-weeks total.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Just to give you guys a heads up -- There were a couple setbacks that pushed the ship date back to the 14th of this month, and lowered our initial stock to only a few hundred bottles. [so we have a very small supply and a very high demand]

So, if you guys want to get your hands on a bottle in the next couple weeks you should get in now.

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

Do you ship to Europe?

What is the better delivery method to Europe FedEx or USPS?

USPS is way more economical, and seems to be just as fast, tracking is not as good though in case something happens... which never has going to the UK.

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

How long will one bottle last?

23-29 days depending on the dose.

-Pp