How much methyl is too much?

[nphocus]

I am leaving the definition of too much open to personal interpretation. For a 250lb individual with a healthy liver and lipid profile that has never run a cycle of ph or ps, how much methylated substances is too much? How do you determine if your methyl intake is too high? What symptoms do you look for?

I am looking for personal opinions and/or scientifc data. Also, I understand post cycle therapy and the stupid number of options including SERMS, AIs, 5a inhibitors, and cortisol blockers. I heard someone on this board recommend NOT taking milk thistle and anti-inflamatory good fats during a ph/ps cycle because muscle growth is inflamatory and anti-inflamatories will hinder growth/inflamation. Is there any data to back this up, or is this based strictly on personal observation?

I tend to think it is wiser to keep your liver in good enough shape to be able to run additional cycles, as opposed to attempting to maximize gains during one cycle and then wait longer between cycles for your liver to heal/recover.

Why are most cycles only 4-6 weeks? What's the data/science behind this. I hope it's better than "because that's what comes in one bottle."

I am trying to gather information regarding a cycle of p-plex (pheraplex - 15mg cap) and epidrol (epistane/havoc - 10mg cap) I am going to start. I am prepared to alter my cycle if lethargy or moodiness becomes an too much of an issue, but I am looking at 1 of 3 scenarios:

Long Cycle - 50mg of methyls peak
1/02/03/04/05/06/07/08/09/10/11/12
Epi - 0/20/20/20/20/20/20/30/30/30/30/20
Pl - 15/30/30/30/30/30/30/00/00/00/00/00

Steady Cycle - 35mg of methyls avg
1/02/03/04/05/06/07/08/09/10/11/12
Epi -20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20
Pl - 15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15

High Cycle - 60mg of methyls avg
1/02/03/04/05/06/07/08/09/10/11/12
Epi -20/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Pl - 15/30/30/30/30/30/30

My lifting routine is westside barbell club. 4 days on, 3 days off. 1st day max squat. 2nd day max bench. 3rd day box squats. 4th day speed bench. Occasional two a days with General Physical Preparedness. Dips, chins, gorilla crunchs, floor presses, turkish get ups. Current bench is 300. Current squat to heels is 370. Squat to parallel is "almost" 435.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

 

[Dalamara]

Most cycles are 4 weeks because you don't want your body to go without natural testosterone for very long.

1/3rd of a year is FAR too long to be on methyls.

 

[edwards]

Injectable cycles last longer than 1 month. I think the 1 month for orals is due to the risk of liver problems. Since I was told that Epistane has a lower risk of adverse liver probs, I ran it right after a cycle of Halovar (halodrol50) for a total of 7 weeks of methyls

 

[Jayhawkk]

You forgot the most important part of your question...which methyl? They are not all the same, nor are they all hepatoxic.

 

[nphocus]

You forgot the most important part of your question...which methyl? They are not all the same, nor are they all hepatoxic.

17a methyls
P-Plex:
17a-Methyl-etioallocholan-2-ene-17b-ol
Epidrol:
2a, 3a-Epithio-17a-Methyl- 5a-Androstan-17b-Ol

What are you referencing for hepatoxicity?

 

[nphocus]

Most cycles are 4 weeks because you don't want your body to go without natural testosterone for very long.

1/3rd of a year is FAR too long to be on methyls.

12 weeks is 1/4 of a year. Testosterone is testosterone, whether it's natural, e, c, or p. I don't think the reasoning behind 4 week cycles is due to a lack of natural test. PCT is going to be shorter, but is a 4 week cycle done because it's effective, or because that is what comes in a bottle? I've read that with certain injectables, they don't even really start exerting their effects until anywhere from 2-6 weeks into a cycle. Why would orals be that much different?

PCT is PCT. Back in the golden age of bodybuilding, people ran cycles for 52 weeks. Now, I like to think that because we all aren't the governor of california, we've learned a bit more about cycles and effective pct since then. I like to think that we've learned what it takes to turn the little boys back on after a long cycle.

An 8+ week cycle works for me right now because my wife and I are expecting a birth next week via c-section and that surgery requires at least 6-8 weeks of downtime... so if my libido drops dead, that's a good thing for me, makes that downtime that much more bearable.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

methylated steroids vary widely in potency and toxicity. you can't make a blanket statement concerning dose

1mg of methyltrienolone might be too much while 100mg of mestanolone might not be enough

 

[pistonpump]

I've read that with certain injectables, they don't even really start exerting their effects until anywhere from 2-6 weeks into a cycle. Why would orals be that much different?

Because the injectables have esters attached that delay the release of the compound into the bloodstream. Orals do this quickly after a few doses it will be at desired dose. 12 weeks of orals?.....not a good idea but if someone were to do it id say keep the doses low if stacked and if in the normal dosing range do not stack. Liver protection and everything else protection throughout with health insurance.

 

[Dr Packenwood]

Subscribed. I was wondering the same thing. If there's no direct answer, great. At least I know.

 

[nphocus]

methylated steroids vary widely in potency and toxicity. you can't make a blanket statement concerning dose

1mg of methyltrienolone might be too much while 100mg of mestanolone might not be enough

Where can one go to find a reference for relative toxicity? Or is it as simple as trial and error and bloodwork?

 

[pistonpump]

you look at a steroid profile and the recommended doses to be taken at. You can go slightly higher but if you go wayyy higher or run on the high side for longer then recommended your gonna have problems.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Where can one go to find a reference for relative toxicity? Or is it as simple as trial and error and bloodwork?

i have some articles that looked at this

the least toxic methyl of any was an odd steroid called 17alpha-methyl-5alpha-androstane

we actually made a bunch here and we were thinking of selling it as a prosteroid back in 2005. in fact, it was our talk of this compound that precipitated the raid on our place. the feds thought (or mislead the judge into thinking) it was a new version of the clear or something

anyway, the stuff was pretty good but you needed like 100mg a day. the stash is sitting in some locker out in some federal building in san francisco probably

 

[nycste]

i have some articles that looked at this

the least toxic methyl of any was an odd steroid called 17alpha-methyl-5alpha-androstane

we actually made a bunch here and we were thinking of selling it as a prosteroid back in 2005. in fact, it was our talk of this compound that precipitated the raid on our place. the feds thought (or mislead the judge into thinking) it was a new version of the clear or something

anyway, the stuff was pretty good but you needed like 100mg a day. the stash is sitting in some locker out in some federal building in san francisco probably

who wants to go get it?

 

[nphocus]

17a methyls
P-Plex:
17a-Methyl-etioallocholan-2-ene-17b-ol
Epidrol:
2a, 3a-Epithio-17a-Methyl- 5a-Androstan-17b-Ol

What are you referencing for hepatoxicity?

I am looking for some way of determining the specific toxicity of these substances. If I can't determine that, then What would be a recommended testing/sampling regimine to determine current liver damage/toxicity? Every week, every 2 weeks, once per month?

I'm not looking for anything pertaining to PH toxicity because I don't believe that that is relavent. I find it kind of ironic that everyone hollers about liver support, but has no clue how toxic the substances are that they are ingesting? I mean, you don't run a race motor on 85 octane fuel because you know it will damage it, but you might be able to get away with 93 octane plus an octane booster or you could just pony up for good ol 106.

Hell, someone should have this information. Hasn't anyone ever thought to request it from the manufacturers? There's tons of logs out there by people that have run pherplex, p-plex, epistane, havoc and epidrol. Everyone knows they are bad for you liver. Does anyone know how bad? Like an LD50 for your liver so to speak? Does anyone even know what happens if you take 60-100mg of any of those substances per day for 4 weeks? Could the lethargy sometimes associated with pheraplex be a sign/symptom of liver toxicity? From what I've gather on hepatoxicity in general, lethargy is a symptom. But could it also be a sign/symptom of recomposition?

 

[Movin_weight]

there are plenty of logs with bloodwork that show elevated liver enzymes during and after the cycle... this of course does not directly correlate with the amount of liver damage being done but is a good indicator

It is hard to say exactly "how hepatoxic" these products are respectively, but why take the chance to find out?

The liver is a hell of an organ and can take alot of abuse but do to the pure nature of orals and there fast acting properties i would see no reason to run a cycle for 12 weeks

personally liver stress is pretty far down the list on my worries when running a cycle... Hpta damage, lipid profiles, blood pressure ect... are what i worry about