an analysis of chemical nomenclature of jungle warfare

[Patrick Arnold]

And even after those years of schooling, it's still a pain in the ass.


Here's what I saw mentioned in the product write-up.


They make mention of its relationship to ATD, but avoid saying that is is simply methylated ATD.

once again, they put 5alpha and a double bond at 4 in the same name

either they are incompetent or they are being deceptive

either way, that should make you feel uncomfortable

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Actually don't they say it is not methylated ATD anymore. Let me find the post....

From ALR
Wow, no wonder I am focused upon research and production rather than boards and drama.

First (And PLEASE post this everywhere you can) JW does not have MATD in it and has not since the first run. MATD was a product that was created by ALR Industries and then worked on with Bruce Kneller. We may not always get along, but I think the man is brilliant and enjoyed our time together a great deal. Problem came later when everyone was ripping BK off for ATD. He was proud of his awesome find so he gave a lot of info..then made little of what he deserved in return. Kind of like you buying and paying for a car, caring for it and keeeping it perfect...then someone else drives it, scratches it and sells it then keeps the money. This is a business and one industry I truley love regardless of the drama and theft that is common to a few. Most in this industry are truely wonderful people as are those we do it all for...you.

Lets see if we can get some BS out of the way...

MATD WAS a good product as proven by the countless blood test results and logs you can find anywhere right from the horses mouth so to speak. Want facts that you can trust? Go find the logs on it. Very easy. Do not want to use the product? Your call. Want controversey? Seems to be plenty and orders for JW have gone up quite a bit in the past few days. MATD was in Ultra HOTter and post cycle therapy, then the first run of JW (I believe over a yer or so ago)

As many point out, they believe little of what any company claims, so we let the people who use the products speak for us. Yes, we do lots of testing and research...and use the products ourselves...its how and why we create rather than just "find" or copy new compounds. What does all of this have to do with MATD? Everything. There is no pubmed on it as we created it.

Why did we pull MATD? Because we built a better compound IMO in ADED (The threads, blood work returns and sales sure suggest so for about a year now...as did the 2 years of work we did with it prior to release....please go read some of it if you have further questions). And a very good second reason. BK felt that we were supporting others who were ripping him off. Friends or not, I do respect him and designing new compounds is just not all that tuff as compared to losing a good friend. AND....like his new AI that is rather interesting, we always keep looking for better ideas. We found one...ADED. Want info on how it works? Please go read the logs. Anyone really interested in the facts would do so to get it from those they trust.

As to 17c alkylation and AI value. Hmmm, so you want me to have a useless debate with PA in short. Nope....I simply disagree and the logs support that it works. If I am wrong then it seems that a very large number of people are making great gains from ADED (Note again: Not MATD) due to magic?

Please realize this. There is no disrespect intended toward anyone in this post and I appreciate the many people who use our products. I am not a salesman but I am an athlete, not some fat or skinny guy talking about what others should do. And my company makes products for athletes who want new and innovative. I still remember when we came out with Ergomax LMG and everyone said it would be usless...and Venom Hyperdrive...and...
ALR

ok, did he mention anywhere in this post what the actual compound was? if he did then i did not catch it. seemed that this answer was full of alot of fluff

when you read one of my posts you see that they are direct to the point. nothing to hide, cut to the chase. i think they are, and i hope you agree

this tells you something. at least it should.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

The one problem I have, is the DSHEA clearly requires that companies list the common or usual name for ingredients. Consumers are not required to guess what is in a product. I have seen company after company list obscure or altered chemical names in order to hide their ingredients from "copycat competitors". This is a clear violation of the law and is not allowed. PA is not exempt from this criticism as AMP did this very thing, but at least he has rectified it.

yeah i was guilty until i rectified it.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

wow. Why pick the supp i'm about to buy..? haha im still gettin it casue there is good reviews on it. Why not pick something else to tear apart. All i can get is, that it works even tho there were previous ingredient changes and what not. Go pick on muscletech if you want to hear about outrageous gains.

P.S. - If this product get's banned for some reason...it's your a$$ PA! J/K reading the lead post was cool casue i just learned all this stuff past semester in school about carbon/bonding/all that crap.

if i picked on muscletech then they would say "why are you picking on us when blah is even worse?"

i am not singling alri out. i addressed this cuz all sorts of people were stacking my products with JW and asking my opinion

and in reality, if i were picking on musceltech i would more likely get a letter from their lawyers saying they were going to sue my ass to the ground!!

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I don't really post over here on this board too much, but I do a lot of reading on this board. Anyways, I just got a "new" bottle of JW, which has this nomenclature listed:

17a-methyl-5a-dehydro-etiocholane-4,6-3-one-ol

Where as the older bottle that I have, is listed as PA put it in his first post. When I asked about this, I was told it was just different nomenclature for the same ingredient. I know the words "alkyl" and "methyl" have some similarities in the meaning, but can they be used interchangably?

.

this is the name that was in the original product

17-Alkyl-4-Delta-5a-Dehydro-Etiocholan-1,6-Dien-3-One)


notice the "1" in the product

now what is that all about? was it a typo? did they change the ingredient from 1,4,6-trien to 4,6-dien? and where in the literature is it stated that a 4,6-dien has any activity as an anti-aromatase? as an androgen? as ANYTHING!!!

understand here that i am not saying this product is useless. it may be fine. and i am not saying it is toxic.

i merely want to understand what it is, and what is the literature that supports its efficacy

actually, i think i may buy a bottle and test it. i may be able to elucidate it once and for all

afterthought; i did not get into this to crucify alri or anything, but now that i have momentum and curiousity i really feel i wanna figure this all out

 

[pistonpump]

wow, no alri presence here yet?

Im not saying that PA is 100% right but from what ive read and the wordings of ALRI in previous posts, sure seems like they tried to make this 17a methyl ATD seem more than it was.

I noticed that they said "metabolite of ATD with improved oral bio-availability" (17a, methyl)

and the references to Ultra HOtter make it seem like PA is right on here.

Where did they state what the old JW was later changed to and how? They state it was changed to ADED but that could be just a new name that they are hiding behind.

Im sorry if im coming off the wrong way but me as a consumer, personally, am bothered by this made up names of ingredients and propertiary blends all the time. I was guilty of hearing the good reviews etc about JW so bought it. I mean there is only so much a non chemisty educated person can research before.... We research and sometimes fall into the same things that the producer of the compound has written up. I guess things will never change.

The funny thing i have noticed about Ergopharm lately is they never make flashy or hyped up products anymore. Makes you wonder when companies hype something up so much they kinda become there own muscletech lol.

 

[pistonpump]

i still gots love for ALRI

 

[nelix]

Thanks PA, when I asked Australian customs why I could not import jungle warfare, they pretty much told me that the label made no sense.
I'd like to see some more of these type of posts.

I think a lot of company's do this type of thing.

I am happy to see Ergopharm making there own labels more descriptive (6oxo extreme lists everything, directly and exactly, AMP's new label is much better than the old one, it goes beyond what is needed in to great detail), and pushing other people to make there labels better.

This is the only way to fight the clones.

 

[Boris]

First of all, let me say that what I am about to say is not intended to reflect a belief that ALRI are any worse than any other supplement company. I have used their products because I find them one of the more convincing companies around, but there are still many aspects that cause me concern, it's all relative.

Why is the composition of a product being changed? If this happens, it should be called Jungle Warfare II or something to make it clear it's a new recipe. If this isn't done, then people aren't going to realise that all the logs published with a different recipe are not valid for the product that is currently being sold.

The ALRI write up for JW suggests that the AI it contains is intended to be LESS effective than ATD, to modulate rather than obliterate estrogen levels. This is consistent with PA's theory on the nature of the substance, but it would have been nice if ALRI had simply come clean about what exactly the substance is and why it will achieve the desired physiological effect.

Here is an example of the type of study I would like to see more of:
http://www.mycologyresearch.com/pdf/articles/Paul_Leonard_Greenhaff.pdf
A safety and effectiveness study for cordyceps. Didn't find it did anything positive, but also found no safety concerns. Wouldn't it be nice to have a study like this presented with the launch of every new supplement?

To Patrick's credit, there is some good information along these lines ....
If I had one criticism to make of the data shown there, it is that I would like to see it continue longer, to see if levels stabilise at the pre-supplementation levels, or if they continue the downward trend that the graph suggests from weeks 8 to 11.

Patrick, thank you for your analysis of this ingredient of Jungle Warfare. I don't know how much of your time it takes up to do such analysis, but I would personally welcome a similar analysis of the other ingredients in JW as well as BAM and Pro Anabol. I get the impression that these ALRI products are immensely popular, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who would be very interested to hear your thoughts about them. We badly need more objective input like yours, and I do believe it is objective, when you see a spade you can't help but call it a spade, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Fabulous One]

This is definately interesting and its being handled professionally with no mud slinging. This is good for us that can't read all the mumbo-jumbo. There are some real smart guys on here and us dummies(speaking for myself)need them!

 

[Mach .78]

i read this

seems they eliminated the '1" from the chemcial. also, they suddenly added a 17-ol to it

does it not disturb you that they all of a sudden completely changed the chemical?

do you think there constant referral to "positive customer feedback" makes this forgivable?

no insinuation here - just realistic questions

I looked at JW awhile back with no background in chemistry, googled it looking for writeups on what the compound was. All of my searches came back to JW threads and product writeups. I decided not to take it. When more knowledgable people on this forum decipher what a compound is, it's side effects,etc..., I feel more comfortable with the compound.

Your first question here is a good one. I don't think the majority of the people here care what the chemical is. Most people rely on results in the gym, results from their mood, and results in the mirror.

I am interested in reading more of your posts. Come here more often, please. See my signature.

 

[jmh80]

ok, did he mention anywhere in this post what the actual compound was? if he did then i did not catch it. seemed that this answer was full of alot of fluff

when you read one of my posts you see that they are direct to the point. nothing to hide, cut to the chase. i think they are, and i hope you agree

this tells you something. at least it should.

Pat,
I get asked advice from the younger chem engineers that I work with all the time (sometimes I give it freely) - one of the bigger problems I see is what you mention above.
Not being direct, addition of words that have no real meaning, vague words.

I'd have to give ALR a D for that answer.
No one has the time or the energy to try to cut through a bunch of crap to get to his point - JUST SAY IT.

Unfortunately - I see this time and time again in the supp. industry. :sad:

 

[Vitruvian]

wow, no alri presence here yet?

Disclaimer: I have all the respect in the world for fit and viper....

but I am wondering this same thing.

 

[jmh80]

Disclaimer: I have all the respect in the world for fit and viper....

but I am wondering this same thing.

I know they were out of town recently for their son's graduation from the Marines (?).

This was posted on a Saturday and it's now Sunday morning - may have had family stuff to do yesterday (or dreaded yardwork - like me, but I didn't do mine).

You never see ALR on the boards and you rarely see Raven.

 

[thesinner]

once again, they put 5alpha and a double bond at 4 in the same name

either they are incompetent or they are being deceptive

either way, that should make you feel uncomfortable

Ok, I see what you're saying now.

 

[SCDiesel23]

ok, did he mention anywhere in this post what the actual compound was? if he did then i did not catch it. seemed that this answer was full of alot of fluff

when you read one of my posts you see that they are direct to the point. nothing to hide, cut to the chase. i think they are, and i hope you agree

this tells you something. at least it should.

Patrick, I don't recall you ever getting involved in any of them, but did you follow any of the JW/mATD/ADED threads on bb.com? No one ever got an answer to exactly what ADED was in 23 pages, all that was supplied was a copy/paste from the bb.com website, and an explanation that what ADED was could not be discussed because it was ALRs "baby". I don't fault the reps for this, because honestly, I don't think they have any idea of what it is either. Several requests for any type of scientific studies were requested, concerning the efficacy and safety of ADED, but none could be provided.

As for wondering why an ALR rep has not showed up, I was assured their presence would be seen soon.

 

[jmh80]

As for wondering why an ALR rep has not showed up, I was assured their presence would be seen soon.

Well - hell, I don't want to see Viper. He's ugly. The female reps/Raven - sure. :thumbsup:

 

[SCDiesel23]

Well - hell, I don't want to see Viper. He's ugly. The female reps/Raven - sure. :thumbsup:

Well, if it makes you feel any better, it wasn't Viper who contacted me

 

[r6samson]

an aldehyde is hc=o. you cannot have a aldehyde at C17. that is because it is because it is "secondary" (bound to a carbon that already has two bonds). to have an aldehyde that carbon would need room for another hydrogen to bond to (make sense?)

I think I got it. Like you stated before it's out of its valence electrons. Thank you, Doctor and yes Organic Chemistry is next semester at school. I'll heed your advice.


JP

 

[jmh80]

Organic 2 was probably the hardest class for me in undergrad. A bit too theoretical.

Physical chem was much easier. (But - most of the chemists said the opposite.)

 

[quigs]

Organic 2 was probably the hardest class for me in undergrad. A bit too theoretical.

Physical chem was much easier. (But - most of the chemists said the opposite.)

I actually found organic I to be more difficult than organic II. Once you understand the basics (which isn't easy), organic becomes like figuring out a puzzle. You need to find which pieces fit where. As you go, you learn tricks which make it much easier (like looking for corner and edge pieces first). Not sure if that analogy made sense, but thats how I saw it.

By the way, great thread. I've been irritated by the vague nomenclature on many of the products out today. There are many companies who are guilty of this but ALRI is one of the prime offenders.

 

[quigs]

Actually don't they say it is not methylated ATD anymore. Let me find the post....

From ALR
And my company makes products for athletes who want new and innovative. I still remember when we came out with Ergomax LMG and everyone said it would be usless...and Venom Hyperdrive...and...
ALR

I find this part of ALRI's post to be irritating. When they came out with ergomax, not everyone thought it would be useless. People purchased it, it worked, and it then became the most sought after designer at the time.

Now, the reason that many were skeptical was for the same reason that this post came about. The labeling was extremely vague "unique pherabolix matrix 10mg". I remember all the threads at the time wondering whether this "pheramone" as they put it could be anabolic. Now if they had just put the actual name of what they were selling on the bottle "desoxymethyltestosterone 10mg" there would have been absolutely no questions, no doubters, etc. I don't see this as innovation, I see this as ALRI trying to be sneaky about selling a designer steroid.

I'm not trying to bash ALRI here as I did like ergo (waited until i knew what the hell it was) and because I do think they're a good company. I just wish they would be a little more open with what their products really are.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Thanks PA, when I asked Australian customs why I could not import jungle warfare, they pretty much told me that the label made no sense.
I'd like to see some more of these type of posts.

I think a lot of company's do this type of thing.

I am happy to see Ergopharm making there own labels more descriptive (6oxo extreme lists everything, directly and exactly, AMP's new label is much better than the old one, it goes beyond what is needed in to great detail), and pushing other people to make there labels better.

This is the only way to fight the clones.

one reason why we are doing it is to give the FDA zero reason to f*ck with us.

 

[Outside Backer]

If i recall, bb.com had a few threads that were complete full of asses regarding this matter

atleast this one is very well behaved no bashing nd actually full of knowledge

i do believe it was methyl atd was the issue

 

[FitnFirm]

I just want you all to know we are not ignoring you ! Jim and I cannot answer for ALR. Patrick is asking ALR direct questions that only he can answer. I have contacted ALR (email) but it is the weekend which is family time so as soon as I have something I will be happy to post it.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Patrick, thank you for your analysis of this ingredient of Jungle Warfare. I don't know how much of your time it takes up to do such analysis, but I would personally welcome a similar analysis of the other ingredients in JW as well as BAM and Pro Anabol. I get the impression that these ALRI products are immensely popular, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who would be very interested to hear your thoughts about them. We badly need more objective input like yours, and I do believe it is objective, when you see a spade you can't help but call it a spade, and there is nothing wrong with that.

your welcome but i did not analyze the product at all. I analyzed the label, or tried to decipher it as best i could.

 

[FitnFirm]

this is the name that was in the original product

17-Alkyl-4-Delta-5a-Dehydro-Etiocholan-1,6-Dien-3-One)


notice the "1" in the product

now what is that all about? was it a typo? did they change the ingredient from 1,4,6-trien to 4,6-dien? and where in the literature is it stated that a 4,6-dien has any activity as an anti-aromatase? as an androgen? as ANYTHING!!!

understand here that i am not saying this product is useless. it may be fine. and i am not saying it is toxic.

i merely want to understand what it is, and what is the literature that supports its efficacy

actually, i think i may buy a bottle and test it. i may be able to elucidate it once and for all

afterthought; i did not get into this to crucify alri or anything, but now that i have momentum and curiousity i really feel i wanna figure this all out

Patrick, the very first Jungle Warfare label showed this as ADED . I have the original html files that show this.


ADED (5a-dehydro-etiocholane-1,4,6-trien-3-one-17-ol)

 

[SCDiesel23]

If i recall, bb.com had a few threads that were complete full of asses regarding this matter

atleast this one is very well behaved no bashing nd actually full of knowledge

i do believe it was methyl atd was the issue

The first thread, the one which was shut down, did pertain to mATD. When pressed on this issue, the ALR reps stated that only the first batch of JW contained mATD, and that the subsequent batches contained the "better" ADED. The thread then turned into a free for all, and a lot of requests were made for science on ADED.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Patrick, I don't recall you ever getting involved in any of them, but did you follow any of the JW/mATD/ADED threads on bb.com? No one ever got an answer to exactly what ADED was in 23 pages, all that was supplied was a copy/paste from the bb.com website, and an explanation that what ADED was could not be discussed because it was ALRs "baby". I don't fault the reps for this, because honestly, I don't think they have any idea of what it is either. Several requests for any type of scientific studies were requested, concerning the efficacy and safety of ADED, but none could be provided.

As for wondering why an ALR rep has not showed up, I was assured their presence would be seen soon.

i did not follow any of those threads.

now i am not without sin, because i did the same thing with geranamine when it first came out (was evasive about its true identity). eventually it was discovered and revealed. i won't ever do that again

supplement companies face a dilemna when they want to sell something new. they have the obligation to be open with the ingredients yet they want to protect their compound from competitors

 

[FitnFirm]

This is the current label:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Patrick, the very first Jungle Warfare label showed this as ADED . I have the original html files that show this.


ADED (5a-dehydro-etiocholane-1,4,6-trien-3-one-17-ol)

that appears to be the 17beta-OH derivative of ATD

once again there is 5alpha in the name along with a designation for a 4 double bond. and once again dehydro sits out there in its superfluous and misplaced glory

who is the chemist with ALRI?

 

[FitnFirm]

that appears to be the 17beta-OH derivative of ATD

once again there is 5alpha in the name along with a designation for a 4 double bond. and once again dehydro sits out there in its superfluous and misplaced glory

who is the chemist with ALRI?

As far as I know, its ALR.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

This is the current label:

now its something different. the double bond of 1 is gone

an appropriate name for this is

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

i am not aware of 4,6 diens having any anti-aromatase activity. though i never checked the literature

 

[Patrick Arnold]

As far as I know, its ALR.

he is not really a chemist is he

 

[FitnFirm]

now its something different. the double bond of 1 is gone

an appropriate name for this is

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

i am not aware of 4,6 diens having any anti-aromatase activity. though i never checked the literature

Well your talking above my head so............ Well I know it does have Anti-Aromatase effects because I have used it and experienced it as well. But as you know I am no chemist so I cannot comment on why it does work.

 

[SCDiesel23]

now its something different. the double bond of 1 is gone

an appropriate name for this is

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

i am not aware of 4,6 diens having any anti-aromatase activity. though i never checked the literature

This is what I was saying earlier. This label is on the new bottles of JW. I asked an ALR rep if this was indeed the same, and the rep told me that ALR himself said it was just a different nomenclature for the same thing. So, if any, what is the difference between these two:

New:17a-methyl-5a-dehydro-etiocholane-4,6-3-one-ol

Old:17-Alkyl-4-Delta-5a-Dehydro-Etiocholan-1,6-Dien-3-One

Also, check PM on bb.com

 

[FitnFirm]

he is not really a chemist is he

I guess you will have to ask him that. I know he is the person behind all our products.

 

[jmh80]

I just wanted to say Hi to all 30 people reading this thread now! :cheers:

 

[Boris]

your welcome but i did not analyze the product at all. I analyzed the label, or tried to decipher it as best i could.

Sorry, yes, I see that my words were ambiguous. What I meant was that you not only deciphered the label but then having worked out what substance you believe they are referring to, gave your insights about the effects of that substance in the body, i.e. that it would be less effective than ATD, and would also be non-toxic. This sort of insight is hugely valuable.

Is there any chance of having an Ergopharm forum on AM where we can discuss your products? I'm interested in them, but have some questions, and rather than just ask directly via email, the resulting info would reach more people if questions and answers were in a forum.

 

[superdrollover]

I just wanted to say Hi to all 30 people reading this thread now! :cheers:

:wave:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Sorry, yes, I see that my words were ambiguous. What I meant was that you not only deciphered the label but then having worked out what substance you believe they are referring to, gave your insights about the effects of that substance in the body, i.e. that it would be less effective than ATD, and would also be non-toxic. This sort of insight is hugely valuable.

Is there any chance of having an Ergopharm forum on AM where we can discuss your products? I'm interested in them, but have some questions, and rather than just ask directly via email, the resulting info would reach more people if questions and answers were in a forum.

maybe we can work that out with am

 

[Patrick Arnold]

below is a study describing the different activities of androstenedione and testosterone with aromatase. the smaller the Km number the faster the rate of aromatization.

Androstenedione is a 17-keto steroid, testosterone is a 17beta-hydroxyl. All steroidal aromatase inhibitors are 17-keto steroids precisely because of this much greater activity.

this is why i think that making a 17methyl-17beta-hydroxyl derivative of established 17-ketosteroid aromatase inhibitors (like ATD) makes no sense. the 17alpha-methyl group actually
PREVENTS metabolism to the more active 17keto derivative


---------

Steroids. 1980 Nov;36(5):507-19. Links
Substrate specificity of the placental microsomal aromatase.Gibb W, Lavoie JC.
Using an accurate and sensitive assay for the human placental aromatase we have found apparent Km values for androstenedione (4-androstene-3,17-dione) and testosterone to be 14 +/- 4.0 nM and 41 +/- 12 nM respectively. These values were significantly different (p < 0.001). Analyses at substrate concentrations 5-10 fold above and below the Km values did not indicate any anomalous kinetic behavior. Mixed substrate experiments were consistent with a single enzyme metabolizing both steroids: each competitively inhibited the aromatization of the other, and the "Ki" values were the same as their apparent Km values. Sodium chloride (1.2M) significantly increased the rate of testosterone aromatization by decreasing its Km value and had no significant effect on the aromatization of androstenedione. However, in the presence of this salt testosterone still inhibited the aromatization of androstenedione competitively with a "Ki" equal to its apparent Km. Our data is therefore consistent with the proposal that human placental microsomes contain a single "high affinity" site for the aromatization of androstenedione and testosterone.

PMID: 7456098 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[r6samson]

Ha, is that Chi Square analysis? I never really understood that stuff. :-\ Anyway, this thread is one of the best I've ever read. Oh and thank you Doctor for being part of this site/discussion. Good to see a chemist search for true answers to what we all ingest.


JP

 

[FitnFirm]

I would be happy to send you a bottle of JW to test PA, email me your address to [email protected] I will ship tomorrow and you will have it tuesday or wed at the latest.

 

[jmh80]

Ha, is that Chi Square analysis? I never really understood that stuff. :-\ Anyway, this thread is one of the best I've ever read. Oh and thank you Doctor for being part of this site/discussion. Good to see a chemist search for true answers to what we all ingest.


JP

I didn't think PA has his PhD in chem. I thought an MS though. Hell - he's close enough to UofI to get it though.

 

[EasyEJL]

This kind of sh%t scares me to death..... in this case, it was fairly innocent.... but someone is going to pull this with a dangerous compound sooner or later, and all the people who followed like sheep are going to be left paying the price.

:goodpost:

It reminds me of FenFen and its problems. Its definitely rough to do that level of research. I hate just as much when some companies throw stuff like "Propriety thermogenic compound 10574 mg" and then just have a list of the ingredients, but without specific amounts per ingredient (or even listing in weight order). I mean if there is a "proprietary lean muscle growth" formula with that many mg total, and its mixed Creatine, Glutamine, Arginine, Citruline, CLA, and Taurine, how am I supposed to tell how much of each is there?

I guess the answer is I shouldn't buy that product. But that sort of labeling seems to be becoming more and more common too

 

[SCDiesel23]

:goodpost:

It reminds me of FenFen and its problems. Its definitely rough to do that level of research. I hate just as much when some companies throw stuff like "Propriety thermogenic compound 10574 mg" and then just have a list of the ingredients, but without specific amounts per ingredient (or even listing in weight order). I mean if there is a "proprietary lean muscle growth" formula with that many mg total, and its mixed Creatine, Glutamine, Arginine, Citruline, CLA, and Taurine, how am I supposed to tell how much of each is there?

I guess the answer is I shouldn't buy that product. But that sort of labeling seems to be becoming more and more common too

Absolutely, especially with something as simple as listing the caffeine content of a product. Certain companies act as if listing the caffeine will automatically allow other companies to rip off their product.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

I've been taking JW for a a few weeks now, and I'm not by any means a chemist, so I'm a little confused as to what you are all disputing here.

Are you disputing the effectiveness of the product itself, as in is this just a placebo product? Or are you disputing the saftey of it, implying ALRI throws in some dangerous ingredients and kind of covers them up by not really listing what they are?

 

[r6samson]

I didn't think PA has his PhD in chem. I thought an MS though. Hell - he's close enough to UofI to get it though.

Education
Patrick Arnold received his B.S. in chemistry from the University of New Haven in 1990. While working as a synthetic-organic chemist at a major chemical company, Patrick was enrolled in graduate school programs at Montclair St. University and the University of Connecticut.


Quoted from Ergopharm.com so I guess you're right. I just can't bring myself to call him by a first name basis.


JP

 

[macedaddy]

I just wanted to say Hi to all 30 people reading this thread now! :cheers:

Hi, J! :cheers: