Epistane testing results

[Nabeshin]

Nab - where the f' you been?

Yeah, I kinda dropped off the radar forever. The story is both long and boring --- thus, I'll spare you.

I feel like we're reuniting in a trench with hot lead flying over our heads. Love dem internets.

 

[jmh80]

Yeah, I kinda dropped off the radar forever. The story is both long and boring --- thus, I'll spare you.

I feel like we're reuniting in a trench with hot lead flying over our heads. Love dem internets.

You are a physics guy - I know you people are quick off the trigger. :fool2:
It's cool man.

Good to see ya back though.
Hope all is well.

 

[Nabeshin]

You are a physics guy - I know you people are quick off the trigger. :fool2:
It's cool man.

Good to see ya back though.
Hope all is well.

Good to see you too. I liked your old avatar better though

 

[jmh80]

Nab,
Had to have a change. She'll make a return at some point. Come football season, I bet.



I just wanna say in front of you 50 people or so that I love Kwyck.
:head:




I'll leave this thread tonight (gotta go walk the dog) with this:
"God Made Notre Dame #1 - Miami Made 'Em #2".

 

[Nabeshin]

I'm also gonna duck out for the night. All this talk of substance purity is unnerving me. I think I'll calm down with a couple shots of heroin.

 

[skull]

I'm also gonna duck out for the night. All this talk of substance purity is unnerving me. I think I'll calm down with a couple shots of heroin.

But make sure its pure --none of this 20% differential crap:fool2:

 

[neoborn]

We want to keep pushing. We do not appreciate you trying to keep wasting our time, money, and health, not to mention putting a giant political bullseye on the back of the industry in general. We do not trust you anymore, so don't expect us to accept an explanation that requires trusting you. And if you alienate us by shadowboxing around a straight answer to the legitimate concerns we have, then our lack of patronage alone will be enough to bury you.

Don't say you weren't warned.

LOL funny I don't see you round here much but you sure are entertaining.

 

[MystikalSoul]

so whats the deal with epi, its underdosed or nobody knows still even after the results?

 

[kjkriston]

I'm also gonna duck out for the night. All this talk of substance purity is unnerving me. I think I'll calm down with a couple shots of heroin.

oooooohhhhhhhhh...cccccchhhhhaaaaaaaassssisnn that drgon.............WHAT THE **** UP *****........you want a fight you got it....:bruce3:

 

[yeahright]

so whats the deal with epi, its underdosed or nobody knows still even after the results?

The results are apparently subject to interpretation. I'm not a chemist but here and at bb.com I've seen some thoughtful posts which say that these results verify what Dr.D has been saying about the product. There have been a couple half-hearted rebuttals of that analysis but nothing of substance as of yet. However, I predict that there will be.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

In short:

MW of Methylepithiostanol is 321.

It can "technically" see two functional groups removed, each of which would take a proton.

Alcohol (-OH) would be removed + proton (H); net loss = water, 18 units.
Epithio can also leave with a proton (-SH); net loss = 33

Playing with combinations:
- Loss of H2O only, M+ = 303
- Loss of SH only, M+ = 288
- Loss of SH + H2O, M+ = 270

Carcinogen and PA argue that the H + OH wouldn't leave because of the protection afforded to it by the c17 methyl group, which would mean 270 isn't as probable according to their claim.

Then throw into the fact that they also claim that they tested both epi and havoc under the same conditions and got results of epi: 270 M+ (epithio m+ was confirmed in this thread), and havoc: 288 M+ and this makes it even more confusing because that means one would have to be wrong.

In short, more data is needed to "prove" or to "be extremely convincing" that one product is the correct one, etc. blah, blah.

 

[propho]

This thread gives me a headache..

 

[skull]

so this is what Im getting out of this so far --EPI/HAVOC --same product same dosage---its just that the makers of HAVOC found a way to make it rate higher in testing buy adding some unknown chem--:think:

 

[1Fast400]

IBE said if I test the other bottle that just got to the lab they're going to sue me. Guess you guys will never know.

 

[PumpingIron]

On what grounds?

 

[RedwolfWV]

IBE said if I test the other bottle that just got to the lab they're going to sue me. Guess you guys will never know.

Here we go, stirrin up the $hit again.

 

[PumpingIron]

Here we go, stirrin up the $hit again.

If it's true, its a valid comment, isnt it?

 

[RedwolfWV]

Not in my opinion. But I'm sure there are more than enough conspiracy theory enthusiasts to promote his comment.

 

[1Fast400]

Here is some fact for you. IBE sent me an PM on this board, trying to make threats. I responded back and then IBE wrote this back to me. You can have a mod check my PM box to verify if you wish:

You know you really can save the threats for someone who cares. You and I both know that even with your few million dollars, you CANNOT get the FDA to hurry up and change legislation and then try to pursue action against any company in the research biz unless you want to spend your last million doing so. Besides I will be selling Innovative Research long before you can have your guys package and process any so called case you think you have against me.
You know MM, you revealed your motives now and at least I know where you are coming from, it's all good though. Next time show your colors or proclaim your vestments (ie PrimaForce and SFR), before trying to approach the community with your so called VALIANT efforts. We'll see how it goes for you with your new business venture, I wish you well, REALLY. BTW, did you ever test Havoc/Hemo to see what it really contains? Since you are doing the community so many favors with your overflowing wealth. I would say your money would be better spent actually helping people, like the countless homeless and suffering people in our country. Care to put up a good $250 or more contributing to a good charitable effort?

My point here MM, is you leave me alone and I will leave you alone. YOu really think you saying you tested pre-primaforce protects you? WHen did you post the reults though? Push me and I will push back....I don't care about how much $$$ you sold your last biz for, it's not always about $$$ in the biz and you should have done your homework a little better before stepping on my toes. If I was REALLY selling illegal substances, then I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation...... in case you haven't researched my history. You say you act out of community interest and the truth is that your only interest is $$$ and you want to keep it comin in.

What you overspent in the last year?
Did that Corey Haims comment hit you that hard?

My bad, I will take it back then.......you will be rich forver and ever and ever.

Don't tell me about customer service, I invented true care and service for my customers and have been, long before your days as BN CEO in the making. You do your testing, out of your own curiosity.....it's a free world, you try to bring my company into anymore of your slander, you will be speaking to my attorney.
You don't have to like me....I used to respect you and your company, but now you are no better than BK and the rest of the goones of this business.

 

[PumpingIron]

wait, IBE is selling IR...that stinks...

 

[B5150]

I have remained quite on this matter and the multiple threads on the topic.

I have no personal stake in the matter, because quite honestly I rarely buy anything (with the acception of general health supplements) from ANYBODY any more, because quite honestly my money is hard earned, much too valuable and is much better spent on providing for my family and my future.

The supplement pushers and junkies of the world have transformed the dialoge of bodybuilding message boards into something very unbecoming and unflattering to those of us who are concerned more with the true lifestyle and disciplines of the sport. Sadly, this has turned participation into something that I have come to do less and less and quite honestly I have come to loath what I see and read anymore.

The cost and risk of bringing any of these products to the consumer is done with the sole intention to make money. Anyone who says they do it for another reason is a liar. Anyone who believe that ANYONE does it for another reason is a fool.

The characters PA, BK, and the character now know as MM have (as well as a few well know user names) ALWAYS brought drama to message boards. There is no doubt that at one time some of these characters were front runners and leaders in the industry of supplement development and retail. Today I see NOTHING of value in the several recent years worth of contribution. Except, in this case, maybe keeping the supplement junkie from consuming questionable anabolic.

These characters are business men with an agenda that is ALWAYS in question. But you know, I never really gave a **** because it was kept off this baord. Now that the staff has allowed this sort of discussion (terribly loose term for the exchanges between some of you) the presence and contribution of this fan fair has altered the spirit of this (my/our) community.

I only wish that the parties that perpetuated this drama and the trolls that have followed it here would take it back to the place where it is best entertained.

That is just my personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of AM or any of it's other staff.

Thanks for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Now you all go back to upholding the integrity of the industry. God knows what it would do without all the help that it gets. You all piss me off.

Have a great day

EDIT: not intended to attack the person but rather the behavior.

 

[1Fast400]

The cost and risk of bringing any of these products to the consumer is done with the sole intention to make money. Anyone who says they do it for another reason is a liar. Anyone who believe that ANYONE does it for another reason is a fool.

You mean we open business's to make money? Free enterprise is what makes our society great. You said yourself that your hard earned money goes to things that are important to you. You think the money some of us earn isn't hard earned? We have to be motivated by money. Why do you go to work everyday? Do you go to collect a check and that is ALL you care about? If it wasn't, you would have a job that you loved more than life, but maybe didn't pay exactly what you wanted. If there wasn't money in what we did, a lot of people wouldn't put forth the time and effort to do it. You'd still be buying boron and animal paks. The "money" that you hate is the very thing that has brought you a lot of new products. At no time in this industries history as there been this many things for a consumer to choose from. I opened up EVERY business I have to make money. However, that doesn't make me blind to taking care of the consumer. I think my history shows that. That is why I bought primaforce. It isn't a magic company. It's the basics, it's simple. Look back through ALL of my posts on the internet and show me ONE example of me pushing people to buy worthless products. I've always been a minimalist with supplements. I think people buy WAY to much crap, but that is their choice.

You say PA and myself have done nothing but brought drama to these boards. Funny how you never mentioned that in person when you met me at a trade show. You seemed like a real cool guy (I'm 95% sure you're who I think you are). PA hasn't made crap off this industry. He lives in a tiny ass apartment with literally no assets. All that man cares about is science. His partner is the money mind, not him. PA just loves what he does. As do I. I love what I do. That is why I'm so passionate about it. Maybe you'd rather us all just sit aside and let things go. Then maybe the bulk protein consumers used to buy would still be laced with sugar. Maybe all their products would be underdosed.

People that paint with a broad stroke piss me off. You can hate me, that doesn't bother me. However, don't act like the ONLY reason we got into business was money. It is a big influence yes, but I got into this because I got screwed by a GNC store in high school. That is what got me motivated to learn more to make sure I didn't get screwed over. That is why I came out with bulk powders to save consumers money (which about 10 other sides copied to a T, even my designs).

Every message board is voluntary. You made the choice to come into these threads and read all this "drama". Don't be mad that after that fact you didn't like what you read. Exert some self control and don't read the drama. It's been contained to TWO threads on this board. I'm sure you have the ability to use the ignore button.

Mike

 

[B5150]

Mike,

Yes we did meet. I can't be sure you remember me. You were a nice guy as well.

I have no issue with you as a person, or any of the other players. What I have issue with is that this ugliness of the industry is present on this board.

Yes, my presence on the board is voluntary but as you can see by the color of my username and title I do have a job to perfrom while I am here voluntarily. Please refrain, if you could from instructing me on how to conduct myself on my board

Like I said, and I will reiterate, we prided ourselves in the fact that these issues (dramas) were conatined elsewhere. Their presence here has not elevated the spirit of the community in a positive manner. But then again, I am not at all concerned with anyones products.

Your contributions to the supplement industry are very well noted Mike. I am concerned with this community, which, BTW happens to be my passion.

Mike, we have no issue between us.

Brian

 

[1Fast400]

No worries. I hate the way some of this industry is as well. That is the problem with an industry that is so easy to make money in. If you want to avoid the rules and the law, you can make some pretty good money pretty quick. With that comes QC issues and everything else. I'm trying to make a LONG term investment in this industry. So when I see people who are doing things to hurt our industry, such as selling illegal products and doing ZERO qc control, I get animated. It pisses me off because there are some of us who work very hard to make this a legit business. I'm trying to look at the long term picture. I've been around government zealouts when they wanted to kill our industry, it isn't fun. Imgaine what the washington post could have done with this info. It's going to happen, just wait.

 

[warnerve]

PA hasn't made crap off this industry. He lives in a tiny ass apartment with literally no assets.
Mike

Sorry to interrupt, I was just surprised at that considering how popular 1ad was awhile back and the success of some of his other stuff

 

[1Fast400]

Ergo built a facility with their 1-AD money. They have about 60k sq/ft monster lab/manufacturing plant in the middle of a corn field in IL. They built it with the ability to get ISO/CGMP status. It is an ungodly impressive building. You could eat off the floors. That is where all the 1-AD money went.

 

[PumpingIron]

Yea but who owns that building?

 

[warnerve]

yeah, i remember reading that ergo's facilities were really impressive, I think they might have said something about it awhile back when they did the thing on PA for espn magazine. I dunno, I guess I always thought the bigger names in the supplement industry were very well off.

 

[poopypants]

io havent even finished reading this thread but i thought id shed some light on here and show you guys something that cant be refuted.

this was posted by the D on 04-07-2007, 12:55 PM in the ibe is in trouble thread on page 17......

don't understand, what's the imperative again? How can IBE refute something before it even exists? That is a formal absurdity because it defies the law of contradiction. There is no need to defend anything until it is actually attacked, right? When some tangible results replace the hot air blowing around, IBE will then have a reason to defend itself. They are totally innocent until then and will need to be proved otherwise (which ain't gonna happen.) They have no need to post squat just because a few jerk offs wanna start trouble. I'm actually glad that they have not dignified that kind of crap by posting any results, but have also advised them to respond promptly if that does occur, leaving NO DOUBT what the real deal is going on here. It just sux because while the consumer usually profits from the extra testing, everybody will actually get hurt from this guy forcing the issue because it puts a huge bull's-eye on these products and can only bring trouble. Why should he care, he made his money already and sells protein powders now! Hope you guys like protein because this kind of publicity is what will make it the only option here pretty soon. Hmmm, good business move, if it doesn't backfire really really bad that is.

Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.

Now imagine a hypothetical product that gives about 15 peaks when tested! Yeah, 15 different compounds in it and may not even contain the label ingredient at all. Not only that, but 2 of those peaks look as though they could be, well, something not good if you are sports tested. Plus there is a major impurity to top it all off! Imagine that this is a compound that you had been told was balls-on accurate only to find out that was a bull**** stunt designed to bash a product that was actually way more pure. That would be pretty messed up, huh? Before you judge IBE for anything else they have done or said, just wait guys! You will be totally enlightened and enraged by the claims this guy has made, because you will see clearly the nasty, greedy, utterly deceptive nature of the lies he tried to feed you. Like I said, the truth will be seem, it just sux that some people have to self-destruct and risk the whole industry to do it. But once he posts those results, that will be the only resolution I suppose, because then the truth will need to be exposed to defend their product. Oh well, so be it. As for myself, I am just sick of it all at this point and damn sure will never buy another PF product again knowing what I now know about the management.

See ya on Monday fellas.

now tell me folks how could he predict mike would come up with a MW of 270 unless it was casue he knows the standard to Epi and tested the same thing and came up with the fact this is correct?


BOTH PA and the lab used TEST as a reference wich has a MW of 288 (not epi and how could they know the MW of epi anyhow if they dont haave a statndard?)and the mg per pill cannot be determined either without the standard, just a comparison if it was EXACTLY like test, sorry this is EPI nNOT TEST

so it goes to show why would the D say 270 first hand and then mikes results show the same unless its EXACTLY what its claimed to be?

i wont post again as if you guys cant read this one post and SEE the truth for yourself let alone the results users like myself have received then ill never convince you. the facts speak for themselves and THANKS Mike (1fast400) for providing the back up to D's claims. i appreciate it and
I told you so.

 

[poopypants]

No, 270 has a logical explanation. The epithio group could easily leave and that would take the overall MW to around 270 depending on whether or not it took one or two protons with it.

I'll ask my professor tomorrow if it is likely to do so.

I actually don't know how 288 is explainable, to tell you the truth. That would be the number he would get if he removed an S-H from the total MW, and not the -OH. -OH almost always falls off during GC/MS as H2O (-18), which yields 270 M+ (molecular ion).

I don't know why PA would say otherwise, honestly.

Well, I'll take it to my professor tomorrow (Ph.D Ochem) or Friday. But, I know FOR A FACT that alcohol would come off as water (-16 for the O and -2 for the two protons).

also for lurkers listen to argumental posts of members that know what their talking about and not peeps like "the rookie" who are letting mike think for them and then arguing his insinuations from a test that PROVES hes wrong.... i could tell a blind man that the sky is brown.... think about it.

 

[hardknock]

^^^I think he pretty much already agreed that D was right in that regard....perhaps the most intriguing thing is whether or not it is dosed at the label claim......

This could actually provide useful info(to those that use it), because if it is under dosed then imagine the possibilities of a 7mg dose? Albeit the price doesn't reflect, but eh...

 

[poopypants]

You're rusty on your ochem, my friend

MW of epistane is 321.

At the 17th Carbon, oriented axially, there is an alcohol functional group -OH. During mass spectroscopy the -OH pretty much always leaves and takes a proton with it. That's -18 AMU from the total MW of 321. That would be the first thing to go, period.

That leaves 303 AMU remaining.

Sulfur, located directly underneath Oxygen on the periodic table (and therefore possessing very similar chemical and physical properties) is also likely to leave (as evidenced by PA's numbers himself, 288 being 321 - 33.) Epistane has an epithio group at 2a,3a. This means that carbons 2 and 3 are bonded to a single sulfur equitorially.

Sulfur has an MW of about 32 and it would strip a proton as well, making the total MW removed 33 AMU.

303 - 33 = 270 AMU for the M+.

To recap,
Epistane contains two functional groups that would likely leave under GC/MS conditions. On is an epithio group and the other is an alcohol. When the alcohol leaves, it takes a proton with it making the total MW loss from the parent molecule 18 AMU. The epithio group would strip a proton with it as well, that takes another 33 away.

So, methyl-epithiostanol = 321. - SH, -H2O = 270.

An M+ of 288 makes little sense. He would have had to leave the -OH functional group on to get that weight, and -OH leaving and stripping a proton (coming off as H2O) is pretty much a given- I guess its "possible" for it to stay on, just very improbably from what I know.

again im requoting this so you know not to listen to clowns regurgitating shii that PA (a convict) and MM (a business man with an agenda) say and listen and look at this experinced members MATH and showing outright how this aint possible, until someone else with a back ground in OCHEM can refute this WHO looks like they are right and have been since the beginning (proved with his post on the 7th?)??? ya that would be IBE and Dr.D

come on dont be blinded, guys the facts are in front of your faces dont be blinded my misguided hate from rampant uninformed members and look at Mike as your savior, hes far from it.

NOW IM DONE>


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kwyckemynd00 again.
but i got mad reps for you in my heart. lol

 

[Mulletsoldier]

^^^I think he pretty much already agreed that D was right in that regard....perhaps the most intriguing thing is whether or not it is dosed at the label claim......

This could actually provide useful info(to those that use it), because if it is under dosed then imagine the possibilities of a 7mg dose? Albeit the price doesn't reflect, but eh...

Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.

 

[gogo]

Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.

Have you heard of anyone having the same gyno reducing side affects on havoc as some have experienced with epistane?

 

[poopypants]

Luckily my part here is done . I said I'd get the results and post them. I have. In closing (as there is nothing more for me to do at this point), I'd like to tell Neo, poopster and friction to please kiss my white hairy ass. I know we aren't supposed to attack people on here, but you dudes rode my ass for 2 weeks about posting results. I said I'd post them and I did.

i luv you

 

[300Fan]

No way im reading all of this... So, is Epistane bad?

 

[supersoldier]

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

 

[DmitryWI]

No way im reading all of this... So, is Epistane bad?

If you don't want to read it, please don't ask retarded questions either.

 

[PumpingIron]

No way im reading all of this... So, is Epistane bad?

Did you honestly post this?

 

[Bionic]

Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.

So let's agree that the label claim was/is off. What that means to me is that less of the active in Epi is needed to make the same gains as Havoc and you get the gyno reduction that some have claimed eluded them w/Havoc.

As you can see, I agree Mullet.

 

[1Fast400]

Poopy, you're still to stupid to read. I will do some summing up for you.

It still doesnt explain why Hemo and Havoc match in testing. If everything dropped off of the Epi product when it was tested then it would then have happened on both Hemo and Havoc. It didnt. PA came up with 288 for both Havoc and Epi, then 270 when he did espistane. Like I stated earlier, D knew it was going to be 270 because PA had already tested it and sent them the report weeks ago. He knew I was testing the same material, so he knew 270 was going to come back. His theory sounds great for justifying the 270, because you don't understand chemistry. There has been a rebutal to this number, but you aren't capable of following that conversation.

If the MW is correct by saying all groups drop to give a weight of 270 then it would happen everytime that compound is tested under the same enviroment. Either both Havoc and Hemo are the same incorrect steroid and Epi is correct or its the reverse. In the end, there is more scientific justification for 288 vs 270, but neither can be proven to an absolute truth. As has been pointed out, more testing needs to be done, ideally with a pure standard, which doesn't exist. (which is why it makes me laugh when IBE says that their competitors products is 60% pure).

 

[macedaddy]

Poopy, you're still to stupid to read. I will do some summing up for you.

Why don't you use your supposed intelligence to make your arguments without PERSONAL attacks! it just makes YOU sound all the worse! and if YOU are SO SMART, the correct term would be "too" not "to"!

Plus, I thought you were done here?:think:

 

[supersoldier]

Either both Havoc and Hemo are the same incorrect steroid and Epi is correct or its the reverse.

So this is all we really know...

In the end, there is more scientific justification for 288 vs 270, but neither can be proven to an absolute truth.

To my knowledge, "more scientific justification" means taking PA's word over that of Dr.D (and Kwick). I haven't seen any real rebuttal since Kwick posted his interpretation, but then again I don't follow the bb.com thread that much like I do here. Care to post (recent) quotes on why 270 MW is wrong?

 

[ShakesAllDay]

I think it's all sugar water. All of it.

 

[yeahright]

It still doesnt explain why Hemo and Havoc match in testing. If everything dropped off of the Epi product when it was tested then it would then have happened on both Hemo and Havoc. It didnt. PA came up with 288 for both Havoc and Epi, then 270 when he did espistane. Like I stated earlier, D knew it was going to be 270 because PA had already tested it and sent them the report weeks ago. He knew I was testing the same material, so he knew 270 was going to come back. His theory sounds great for justifying the 270, because you don't understand chemistry. There has been a rebutal to this number, but you aren't capable of following that conversation.

If the MW is correct by saying all groups drop to give a weight of 270 then it would happen everytime that compound is tested under the same enviroment. Either both Havoc and Hemo are the same incorrect steroid and Epi is correct or its the reverse. In the end, there is more scientific justification for 288 vs 270, but neither can be proven to an absolute truth. As has been pointed out, more testing needs to be done, ideally with a pure standard, which doesn't exist.

This seems to be an exageration of the discussion. PA and Carcinogen said that the methyl group usually shields the alcohol from being stripped in similar AAS. However, they didn't say that it wasn't possible.

I'd like to point out that it doesn't necessarily mean either analysis or test is wrong. It could mean that there is another factor explaining why one product lost the alcohol group during testing and the other didn't. That -18 difference between 270 and 288 (the weight of the alcohol plus proton) is too elegant to be a coincidence. From the outside (not a chemist), it looks like they could both be right but that there is an unknown factor causing the products to breakdown different under testing (perhaps some filler or binder).

 

[poopypants]

umm how many times did you personally attack me there? how bout you drop the tude and let me express my opinions as i never once said you were stupid or an idiot or cant read.

id like for a mod to please put him in his place and have him edit his post for arguments sake but remove the insults, or can you handle that mike? so you know my names spenc so were on a first name basis, thanks for the results but im allowed to interpret them the same way you are and i ask that you argue your point with more maturity. thanks.

 

[macedaddy]

This seems to be an exageration of the discussion. PA and Carcinogen said that the methyl group usually shields the alcohol from being stripped in similar anabolic steroids. However, they didn't say that it wasn't possible.

I'd like to point out that it doesn't necessarily mean either analysis or test is wrong. It could mean that there is another factor explaining why one product lost the alcohol group during testing and the other didn't. That -18 difference between 270 and 288 (the weight of the alcohol plus proton) is too elegant to be a coincidence. From the outside (not a chemist), it looks like they could both be right but that there is an unknown factor causing the products to breakdown different under testing (perhaps some filler or binder).

or MAYBE it is a conspiracy to PURPOSELY make the other product look bad! :think:

hmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................................

 

[1Fast400]

You guys are funny. Sadly, I can't post the emails I have, as that would truly start a world of crap. You guys are right. This isn't my battle. I can't save the world from underdosing douche bags. Amazing how it's "ok" they underdosed it because it's working. So funny.

I'm off to flavor bcaa's. Have fun figuring all this out.

 

[poopypants]

As has been pointed out, more testing needs to be done, ideally with a pure standard, which doesn't exist. (which is why it makes me laugh when IBE says that their competitors products is 60% pure).

i kept reading after as you can see i replied to a coment you made near the end??? either way you make these claims and produce them as facts?

doesnt a pure standard exist? and if not then then guess what, a closer to standard epi would still do loads better then your labs and PA's comparison to TEST, and if you read IBE's post im sure you can gather we'll all be finding out quite soon why the others had a MW of 288 and are only 60% pure.

so whos to say the chem house IBE used got it right and RPN and SFR chose the bunk one? you dont know and neither do i so save your argumental speculations till those results are released as thus far i still see an explination for 270 and the fact D and you at diff times came up with the exact same things just goes more to prove your wrong in your accusations and IBE has the legit compound.

 

[ShakesAllDay]

or MAYBE it is a conspiracy to PURPOSELY make the other product look bad! :think:

hmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................................

That's it! The missing piece. To the. Puzzle.

Or, the missing link. I can't decide.