Yeah, I kinda dropped off the radar forever. The story is both long and boring --- thus, I'll spare you.Nab - where the f' you been?
I feel like we're reuniting in a trench with hot lead flying over our heads. Love dem internets.
Yeah, I kinda dropped off the radar forever. The story is both long and boring --- thus, I'll spare you.Nab - where the f' you been?
You are a physics guy - I know you people are quick off the trigger. :fool2:Yeah, I kinda dropped off the radar forever. The story is both long and boring --- thus, I'll spare you.
I feel like we're reuniting in a trench with hot lead flying over our heads. Love dem internets.
Good to see you too. I liked your old avatar better thoughYou are a physics guy - I know you people are quick off the trigger. :fool2:
It's cool man.
Good to see ya back though.
Hope all is well.
But make sure its pure --none of this 20% differential crap:fool2:I'm also gonna duck out for the night. All this talk of substance purity is unnerving me. I think I'll calm down with a couple shots of heroin.
LOL funny I don't see you round here much but you sure are entertaining.We want to keep pushing. We do not appreciate you trying to keep wasting our time, money, and health, not to mention putting a giant political bullseye on the back of the industry in general. We do not trust you anymore, so don't expect us to accept an explanation that requires trusting you. And if you alienate us by shadowboxing around a straight answer to the legitimate concerns we have, then our lack of patronage alone will be enough to bury you.
Don't say you weren't warned.
I'm also gonna duck out for the night. All this talk of substance purity is unnerving me. I think I'll calm down with a couple shots of heroin.
The results are apparently subject to interpretation. I'm not a chemist but here and at bb.com I've seen some thoughtful posts which say that these results verify what Dr.D has been saying about the product. There have been a couple half-hearted rebuttals of that analysis but nothing of substance as of yet. However, I predict that there will be.so whats the deal with epi, its underdosed or nobody knows still even after the results?
IBE said if I test the other bottle that just got to the lab they're going to sue me. Guess you guys will never know.
If it's true, its a valid comment, isnt it?Here we go, stirrin up the $hit again.
You know you really can save the threats for someone who cares. You and I both know that even with your few million dollars, you CANNOT get the FDA to hurry up and change legislation and then try to pursue action against any company in the research biz unless you want to spend your last million doing so. Besides I will be selling Innovative Research long before you can have your guys package and process any so called case you think you have against me.
You know MM, you revealed your motives now and at least I know where you are coming from, it's all good though. Next time show your colors or proclaim your vestments (ie PrimaForce and SFR), before trying to approach the community with your so called VALIANT efforts. We'll see how it goes for you with your new business venture, I wish you well, REALLY. BTW, did you ever test Havoc/Hemo to see what it really contains? Since you are doing the community so many favors with your overflowing wealth. I would say your money would be better spent actually helping people, like the countless homeless and suffering people in our country. Care to put up a good $250 or more contributing to a good charitable effort?
My point here MM, is you leave me alone and I will leave you alone. YOu really think you saying you tested pre-primaforce protects you? WHen did you post the reults though? Push me and I will push back....I don't care about how much $$$ you sold your last biz for, it's not always about $$$ in the biz and you should have done your homework a little better before stepping on my toes. If I was REALLY selling illegal substances, then I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation...... in case you haven't researched my history. You say you act out of community interest and the truth is that your only interest is $$$ and you want to keep it comin in.
What you overspent in the last year?
Did that Corey Haims comment hit you that hard?
My bad, I will take it back then.......you will be rich forver and ever and ever.
Don't tell me about customer service, I invented true care and service for my customers and have been, long before your days as BN CEO in the making. You do your testing, out of your own curiosity.....it's a free world, you try to bring my company into anymore of your slander, you will be speaking to my attorney.
You don't have to like me....I used to respect you and your company, but now you are no better than BK and the rest of the goones of this business.
You mean we open business's to make money? Free enterprise is what makes our society great. You said yourself that your hard earned money goes to things that are important to you. You think the money some of us earn isn't hard earned? We have to be motivated by money. Why do you go to work everyday? Do you go to collect a check and that is ALL you care about? If it wasn't, you would have a job that you loved more than life, but maybe didn't pay exactly what you wanted. If there wasn't money in what we did, a lot of people wouldn't put forth the time and effort to do it. You'd still be buying boron and animal paks. The "money" that you hate is the very thing that has brought you a lot of new products. At no time in this industries history as there been this many things for a consumer to choose from. I opened up EVERY business I have to make money. However, that doesn't make me blind to taking care of the consumer. I think my history shows that. That is why I bought primaforce. It isn't a magic company. It's the basics, it's simple. Look back through ALL of my posts on the internet and show me ONE example of me pushing people to buy worthless products. I've always been a minimalist with supplements. I think people buy WAY to much crap, but that is their choice.The cost and risk of bringing any of these products to the consumer is done with the sole intention to make money. Anyone who says they do it for another reason is a liar. Anyone who believe that ANYONE does it for another reason is a fool.
Sorry to interrupt, I was just surprised at that considering how popular 1ad was awhile back and the success of some of his other stuffPA hasn't made crap off this industry. He lives in a tiny ass apartment with literally no assets.
Mike
don't understand, what's the imperative again? How can IBE refute something before it even exists? That is a formal absurdity because it defies the law of contradiction. There is no need to defend anything until it is actually attacked, right? When some tangible results replace the hot air blowing around, IBE will then have a reason to defend itself. They are totally innocent until then and will need to be proved otherwise (which ain't gonna happen.) They have no need to post squat just because a few jerk offs wanna start trouble. I'm actually glad that they have not dignified that kind of crap by posting any results, but have also advised them to respond promptly if that does occur, leaving NO DOUBT what the real deal is going on here. It just sux because while the consumer usually profits from the extra testing, everybody will actually get hurt from this guy forcing the issue because it puts a huge bull's-eye on these products and can only bring trouble. Why should he care, he made his money already and sells protein powders now! Hope you guys like protein because this kind of publicity is what will make it the only option here pretty soon. Hmmm, good business move, if it doesn't backfire really really bad that is.
Let's think about results for a minute. For example, take a compound with a molecular weight of 321 that possesses an episulfide and a hydroxyl function, which are it's two most libel groups in a GC/MS fragmentation. When injected into a testing system (reference my GC/MS tutorial on p.10), what would be the most likely result? The parent less the hydroxyl less the episulfide which would strip a proton with it (320.53-17.01-32.07-1.01=270.45~270) leaving an ion which would resemble the non alcoholic version of DMT (2-ene). Also, imagine that this product is 99+% pure and that the results and logs are stellar by almost all who try it.
Now imagine a hypothetical product that gives about 15 peaks when tested! Yeah, 15 different compounds in it and may not even contain the label ingredient at all. Not only that, but 2 of those peaks look as though they could be, well, something not good if you are sports tested. Plus there is a major impurity to top it all off! Imagine that this is a compound that you had been told was balls-on accurate only to find out that was a bull**** stunt designed to bash a product that was actually way more pure. That would be pretty messed up, huh? Before you judge IBE for anything else they have done or said, just wait guys! You will be totally enlightened and enraged by the claims this guy has made, because you will see clearly the nasty, greedy, utterly deceptive nature of the lies he tried to feed you. Like I said, the truth will be seem, it just sux that some people have to self-destruct and risk the whole industry to do it. But once he posts those results, that will be the only resolution I suppose, because then the truth will need to be exposed to defend their product. Oh well, so be it. As for myself, I am just sick of it all at this point and damn sure will never buy another PF product again knowing what I now know about the management.
See ya on Monday fellas.
also for lurkers listen to argumental posts of members that know what their talking about and not peeps like "the rookie" who are letting mike think for them and then arguing his insinuations from a test that PROVES hes wrong.... i could tell a blind man that the sky is brown.... think about it.No, 270 has a logical explanation. The epithio group could easily leave and that would take the overall MW to around 270 depending on whether or not it took one or two protons with it.
I'll ask my professor tomorrow if it is likely to do so.
I actually don't know how 288 is explainable, to tell you the truth. That would be the number he would get if he removed an S-H from the total MW, and not the -OH. -OH almost always falls off during GC/MS as H2O (-18), which yields 270 M+ (molecular ion).
I don't know why PA would say otherwise, honestly.
Well, I'll take it to my professor tomorrow (Ph.D Ochem) or Friday. But, I know FOR A FACT that alcohol would come off as water (-16 for the O and -2 for the two protons).
again im requoting this so you know not to listen to clowns regurgitating shii that PA (a convict) and MM (a business man with an agenda) say and listen and look at this experinced members MATH and showing outright how this aint possible, until someone else with a back ground in OCHEM can refute this WHO looks like they are right and have been since the beginning (proved with his post on the 7th?)??? ya that would be IBE and Dr.DYou're rusty on your ochem, my friend
MW of epistane is 321.
At the 17th Carbon, oriented axially, there is an alcohol functional group -OH. During mass spectroscopy the -OH pretty much always leaves and takes a proton with it. That's -18 AMU from the total MW of 321. That would be the first thing to go, period.
That leaves 303 AMU remaining.
Sulfur, located directly underneath Oxygen on the periodic table (and therefore possessing very similar chemical and physical properties) is also likely to leave (as evidenced by PA's numbers himself, 288 being 321 - 33.) Epistane has an epithio group at 2a,3a. This means that carbons 2 and 3 are bonded to a single sulfur equitorially.
Sulfur has an MW of about 32 and it would strip a proton as well, making the total MW removed 33 AMU.
303 - 33 = 270 AMU for the M+.
To recap,
Epistane contains two functional groups that would likely leave under GC/MS conditions. On is an epithio group and the other is an alcohol. When the alcohol leaves, it takes a proton with it making the total MW loss from the parent molecule 18 AMU. The epithio group would strip a proton with it as well, that takes another 33 away.
So, methyl-epithiostanol = 321. - SH, -H2O = 270.
An M+ of 288 makes little sense. He would have had to leave the -OH functional group on to get that weight, and -OH leaving and stripping a proton (coming off as H2O) is pretty much a given- I guess its "possible" for it to stay on, just very improbably from what I know.
Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.^^^I think he pretty much already agreed that D was right in that regard....perhaps the most intriguing thing is whether or not it is dosed at the label claim......
This could actually provide useful info(to those that use it), because if it is under dosed then imagine the possibilities of a 7mg dose? Albeit the price doesn't reflect, but eh...
Have you heard of anyone having the same gyno reducing side affects on havoc as some have experienced with epistane?Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.
i luv youLuckily my part here is done. I said I'd get the results and post them. I have. In closing (as there is nothing more for me to do at this point), I'd like to tell Neo, poopster and friction to please kiss my white hairy ass. I know we aren't supposed to attack people on here, but you dudes rode my ass for 2 weeks about posting results. I said I'd post them and I did.
If you don't want to read it, please don't ask retarded questions either.No way im reading all of this... So, is Epistane bad?
Did you honestly post this?No way im reading all of this... So, is Epistane bad?
Or imagine the possibility that in fact IBE's product is legitimate, in which case you have an efficacous product which destroys gyno (anecdotally) and is lipid-friendly without going up to 7mg.
As you can see, I agree Mullet.So let's agree that the label claim was/is off. What that means to me is that less of the active in Epi is needed to make the same gains as Havoc and you get the gyno reduction that some have claimed eluded them w/Havoc.
Why don't you use your supposed intelligence to make your arguments without PERSONAL attacks! it just makes YOU sound all the worse! and if YOU are SO SMART, the correct term would be "too" not "to"!Poopy, you're still to stupid to read. I will do some summing up for you.
So this is all we really know...Either both Havoc and Hemo are the same incorrect steroid and Epi is correct or its the reverse.
To my knowledge, "more scientific justification" means taking PA's word over that of Dr.D (and Kwick). I haven't seen any real rebuttal since Kwick posted his interpretation, but then again I don't follow the bb.com thread that much like I do here. Care to post (recent) quotes on why 270 MW is wrong?In the end, there is more scientific justification for 288 vs 270, but neither can be proven to an absolute truth.
It still doesnt explain why Hemo and Havoc match in testing. If everything dropped off of the Epi product when it was tested then it would then have happened on both Hemo and Havoc. It didnt. PA came up with 288 for both Havoc and Epi, then 270 when he did espistane. Like I stated earlier, D knew it was going to be 270 because PA had already tested it and sent them the report weeks ago. He knew I was testing the same material, so he knew 270 was going to come back. His theory sounds great for justifying the 270, because you don't understand chemistry. There has been a rebutal to this number, but you aren't capable of following that conversation.
If the MW is correct by saying all groups drop to give a weight of 270 then it would happen everytime that compound is tested under the same enviroment. Either both Havoc and Hemo are the same incorrect steroid and Epi is correct or its the reverse. In the end, there is more scientific justification for 288 vs 270, but neither can be proven to an absolute truth. As has been pointed out, more testing needs to be done, ideally with a pure standard, which doesn't exist.
or MAYBE it is a conspiracy to PURPOSELY make the other product look bad! :think:This seems to be an exageration of the discussion. PA and Carcinogen said that the methyl group usually shields the alcohol from being stripped in similar anabolic steroids. However, they didn't say that it wasn't possible.
I'd like to point out that it doesn't necessarily mean either analysis or test is wrong. It could mean that there is another factor explaining why one product lost the alcohol group during testing and the other didn't. That -18 difference between 270 and 288 (the weight of the alcohol plus proton) is too elegant to be a coincidence. From the outside (not a chemist), it looks like they could both be right but that there is an unknown factor causing the products to breakdown different under testing (perhaps some filler or binder).
i kept reading after as you can see i replied to a coment you made near the end??? either way you make these claims and produce them as facts?As has been pointed out, more testing needs to be done, ideally with a pure standard, which doesn't exist. (which is why it makes me laugh when IBE says that their competitors products is 60% pure).
That's it! The missing piece. To the. Puzzle.or MAYBE it is a conspiracy to PURPOSELY make the other product look bad! :think:
hmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................................
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