KLEEN LIVING - A log about Life, Training, and Nutrition.

[MrKleen73]

The Sugar Diet Experiment - After following along with @Smont , he has my interest peaked in just what this does, and how it is supposed to work. So I decided to do a bit of an experiment on myself. I do not know how long I intend to give this a shot, starting out, looking at 2 weeks to start, but honestly, if I hate it and am not seeing a lot of movement I will abort in a week. I don't need to make myself miserable from this point to get to being leaner, especially if not seeing aggressive results. Yet I am intrigued the more I learn on it.

I grabbed a bunch of frozen fruits yesterday, some canned fruits for convenience, and a bunch of juices, and the biggest bag of Haribo bears I could find at the store. I will grab some more fresh fruit today, my wife forgot to pick that up. I am going to make some fruit bowls today with the frozen fruits, some honey, and maybe some cinnamon. We will see how things go.

Morning Weight 199.8 - The scale is going down, and the gear is low enough in my system not to be pulling tons of glycogen into the muscle like before. So, I don't have a real full look right now, a little bit flat. Abs looking decent, hoping to see some improvement from this experiment. I will try to take some pics here in the next day or two just to have a basic reference point. However I feel I look about like I did before I left for Florida, just less stored glycogen and probably just a smidge leaner. I will be tracking to make sure I am hitting at least 2000 calories a day, but might let calories ride up depending on my personal response to the diet.

I need to grab some lances for my blood sugar monitor, but intend to do a little checking on glucose levels. If the up and down swings are way to severe and start making me go hypo after the insulin spike I will give it a little time, but I won't play with my blood sugar too much if it starts looking off or I am almost passing out in my chair at work. I should know how that is going to go after one week.

Implementation - I have not come to a concrete plan to implement this, I have some ideas from my research, but plan to try a couple things. I may do a 20ish hour sugar fast daily with about 100-160g of protein in the final 4 hours of food. I may also add in some 24-36 hour sugar fasts to see if I see much difference. I will be adding sodium for hydration purposes because there is no way I will get enough on this diet without supplementation. I still intend to do 3 lifting sessions a week as laid out last week. Push + Medial Delts & Biceps. Lower, Rear Delts, & Abs, and Pull + Triceps & Medial Delts. I will plan to have my protein for sure on the nights I train, and other days, I will make that decision as I go if I am going to do a full day sugar fast or a 20-ish hour sugar fast and then some protein.

NEAT & Energy Expenditure- Not going to go crazy counting steps or anything, and not super sure I will worry about wearing my pedoeter when doing cardio or anything. I think 5k steps minimum, and some movement, and training of some sort most days is going to be the ticket here. I plan to figure out some Flow stuff I might be able to add in, and while figuring out how I want to implement that I will add some body weight work into my other days. Even if just minor stuff.

Secondary Experiment - Damn the style points - In an effort to get my feet a bit stronger, I have switched to wearing my Bearfoots to work today. I figure the more I need to use my foot muscles just walking, the better they will likely get. I won't wear them for direct cardio more than likely, but during work, lifting, body weight work, and flow stuff that should be plenty stimulation for them.

My Dental Stuff is on the move, I definitely need oral surgery to remove these according to my dentist. Luckily at her great anxiety, I was able to get her to grind the sharper parts of the bone growth that were sticking out of my gums down so it would stop cutting my gums and tongue. I basically told her either you di it, or I will put a nail sander on it and file it down myself. So she decided to do her best. She was so worried, but I said I was at the point we can cut the jaw off, or we can do something to make this feel a little better, you decide. I am still waiting for Walgreens to call with my antibiotics. My jaw and gums are super sore right now but at least it isn't as bad as it was previously. I am hoping this period of softer foods will help me not to continuously hit it with food. Last night I was unable to eat the dinner my wife made, chewing the food was too painful, which was a bummer because UHM Pork Chops, and my wife makes them good! So, I ended up having a PB&J, and a protein shake last night for dinner. Even the PB&J caused some pain because some peanut butter got stuck in the area and I had to get it out with my tongue which sucked!!! I should get a call sometime today to schedule a visit with the oral surgeon to see what he says and if he thinks he can get my health insurance to help cover any of this because it is going to be way over what my dental insurance will cover. Wish me luck on this that I can get it fixed without it costing me an arm and a leg!

 

[1HP]

For me this diet has been a revelation in getting to understand my digestive’s system relationship with general quality of life, feel, stress and performance. As I’m discovering my system struggles with a lot of foods I had no idea of it did.

Eagerly following!

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah, I have always enjoyed doing these experiments, they allow you to learn a lot about your body and how it responds to different stimulus.

Just finished breakfast - 280g frozen pineapples, 30g honey, & cinnamon @ 3 minutes in microwave equals Dessert breakfast. I also had 8 oz apple juice, and a cup of coffee, no creamer, 1 teaspoon table sugar. About to drop a gram of sodium down the shoot as well.

 

[Dustin07]

Implementation - I have not come to a concrete plan to implement this, I have some ideas from my research, but plan to try a couple things. I may do a 20ish hour sugar fast daily with about 100-160g of protein in the final 4 hours of food. I may also add in some 24-36 hour sugar fasts to see if I see much difference. I will be adding sodium for hydration purposes because there is no way I will get enough on this diet without supplementation. I still intend to do 3 lifting sessions a week as laid out last week. Push + Medial Delts & Biceps. Lower, Rear Delts, & Abs, and Pull + Triceps & Medial Delts. I will plan to have my protein for sure on the nights I train, and other days, I will make that decision as I go if I am going to do a full day sugar fast or a 20-ish hour sugar fast and then some protein.

I'd love to see a full day breakout of your nutrition if possible. all the sudden all of AM is going to convert from chicken shakes to diabetes

Secondary Experiment - Damn the style points - In an effort to get my feet a bit stronger, I have switched to wearing my Bearfoots to work today. I figure the more I need to use my foot muscles just walking, the better they will likely get. I won't wear them for direct cardio more than likely, but during work, lifting, body weight work, and flow stuff that should be plenty stimulation for them.

dude I've been thinking about this too actually, especially as I've been running more lately, I've been getting the ache to condition my feet, achilles/ankles, and calves back into that barefoot life!! which ones do you have? Mine are SOOOO old, I'd have to FIND them. I can't really imagine they wear out though since you have no sole to begin with?

Just finished breakfast - 280g frozen pineapples, 30g honey, & cinnamon @ 3 minutes in microwave equals Dessert breakfast. I also had 8 oz apple juice, and a cup of coffee, no creamer, 1 teaspoon table sugar. About to drop a gram of sodium down the shoot as well.

when I'm going really clean, but not fasting, I also like that local sugar in the coffee. stuff is so expensive I usually only buy it once a year but I have it in my head that good quality local honey has substantial health benefits...

 

[MrKleen73]

I'd love to see a full day breakout of your nutrition if possible. all the sudden all of AM is going to convert from chicken shakes to diabetes


dude I've been thinking about this too actually, especially as I've been running more lately, I've been getting the ache to condition my feet, achilles/ankles, and calves back into that barefoot life!! which ones do you have? Mine are SOOOO old, I'd have to FIND them. I can't really imagine they wear out though since you have no sole to begin with?



when I'm going really clean, but not fasting, I also like that local sugar in the coffee. stuff is so expensive I usually only buy it once a year but I have it in my head that good quality local honey has substantial health benefits...

Once I have all my stuff I will probably make more of a meal plan, but will post up my feedings in here today for sure. Since i am sort of limited today, I will likely get my carbs from fruit juices, frozen fruits, honey, and some gummies. If I can hold over tonight, I want to see if I can kick this off with a 44 hour sugar fast. We will see how miserable i am by this evening though. LOL I might need to break in a bit before trying that.

As far as diabetes, I think if you have it you might want to avoid this, but again, it is so based in fructose that you don't really need much insulin, fructose does not require insulin like glucose does. At least according to the current research. So your insulin levels shouldn't be crazy high. I watched a video of a woman who tracked her blood sugar the whole time she was trying it via an all day BG monitor. Although her blood sugar swung wildly, she showed she was still very insulin sensitive. Huge spikes then a massive drop in BG levels. One thing I saw mentioned is you still want your feedings to be separated by hours so you get that spike then get back down to lower BG levels. That way you are not just in a state of hyper BG all day, keeping insulin higher throughout the day. She was a long time Carnivore person too. So she would have already been a bit less efficient at processing blood sugar than anyone with a mixed macro lifestyle. Once you cut carbs out for long enough the body shuts off an enzyme required to process BG, and if it isn't there, it doesn't really matter how sensitive you are to insulin, insulin can't do it's thing as efficiently without it. So her results were not even as good as they could have been resulting in her having higher fasting BG than she had previously. I think she would have adjusted better with another week or two of doing this, but she only did it for 8 days, and of course has a skewed opinion based on the fact her religion is the Carnivore Diet. I am agnostic in that respect, I just want to see what this does for me, if anything, and if it works develop a good understanding of what is happening.
==========================================================
AI Overview


When on a ketogenic diet for an extended period, the body relies on fat for energy and significantly reduces its use of glucose
. As a result, certain enzymes involved in glucose metabolism become less active because they are not needed as much.
Specifically, the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (PDC) plays a crucial role in converting pyruvate, derived from glucose, into acetyl-CoA, which then enters the cell's energy production pathway. The activity of PDC is regulated by enzymes called pyruvate dehydrogenase kinases (PDKs). In a state of prolonged ketosis, where glucose is scarce and fatty acids are abundant, PDK activity increases, leading to a decrease in PDC activity. This adaptation essentially "turns down" the machinery for processing glucose because the body is primarily running on fat-derived ketones.
Therefore, after a long period of ketosis, the body reduces the activity of the PDC, which is a key enzyme complex in processing blood sugar. This adaptation is a natural response to the shift in fuel source from glucose to fat.
==============================================================

Yeah, I am hoping it will help. I won't wear them on long walks outside. I don't think the soles are made for that. The concrete would probably chew through them pretty quickly IMHO. Also hitting two miles a day on them before my feet are ready, and walking on concrete is going to be a bit too much for where my feet are right now. Some flat trainers with a decent sole will be getting purchased soon.

 

[Dustin07]

this is going to be a fascinating diet to watch unfold...

 

[gphagan1]

Definitely interested in what you see….it’s been very interesting what Smont, 1HP, and others have observed that are doing this diet. If it seems to work well without sacrificing too much of your work capacity, I might consider trying it myself. But I’ll wait and see what happens to you guys first.

 

[1HP]

For me it’s not only noticeable but also measurable in health markers / stress levels:

Averaged over a week:

First: 50/50 fruits/starches - 2167/226C/174P/63F
Second: only fruits/haribo - 2285/321C/172P/34F

Blood pressure: 125/83 -> 119/77
Resting Heart Rate: 64 -> 56
HRV: 7.4 -> 8.0
rMSSD: 38 -> 58
Weight: unchanged

Weight doesn’t change I guess due to a (visually) absence of bloating / reduced stomach protrusion, I’m assuming much lower intestinal inflammation levels. Energy is way up.

 

[MrKleen73]

this is going to be a fascinating diet to watch unfold...

i think it should be.

Definitely interested in what you see….it’s been very interesting what Smont, 1HP, and others have observed that are doing this diet. If it seems to work well without sacrificing too much of your work capacity, I might consider trying it myself. But I’ll wait and see what happens to you guys first.

One thing I can say for sure right now is that I am heating up. Only 2 meals this way and I am about to take my jacket off even sitting by the Server Room door which it pushes cold air out at high pressure and is always between 57-60 degrees right next to my desk all day.

For me it’s not only noticeable but also measurable in health markers / stress levels:

Averaged over a week:

First: 50/50 fruits/starches - 2167/226C/174P/63F
Second: only fruits/haribo - 2285/321C/172P/34F

Blood pressure: 125/83 -> 119/77
Resting Heart Rate: 64 -> 56
HRV: 7.4 -> 8.0
rMSSD: 38 -> 58
Weight: unchanged

Weight doesn’t change I guess due to a (visually) absence of bloating / reduced stomach protrusion, I’m assuming much lower intestinal inflammation levels. Energy is way up.

All good things, and I remember you said you did see a visual difference, the scale just wasn't showing it.

For my 2nd meal of the day I had 140g frozen blueberries, heated up with 40g of table sugar, plus 8 oz apple juice, I also drank the sweetened blueberry juice at the bottom of the cup. About 20 minutes after this meal I started to run a bit hot. I would have preferred more berries, but I don't have quite enough to really throw down today. I thought the bag I had here at work was almost full, but it was almost gone. I have also had 2 small cups of coffee with a little table sugar to sweeten it with each meal so far. Plenty of energy now even with probably half the caffeine as usual in my day thus far.

 

[MrKleen73]

Well, I was wrong about not walking in my shoes, I ended up walking up the ramps in the parking garage for an hour. I will try to do a little something else today once I get home. I have so much energy even after my walk I am sitting her fidgeting while typing this. Nonstop leg movement!

 

[Segansational]

Good luck with this new diet Kleen! I'll admit, I'm pretty skeptical of this for the AM crowd (bodybuilders, powerlifters, etc.) - particularly for those with performance in mind. Basically, weight loss without it significantly impacting muscle loss would be my concern. Maybe for the typical just trying to lose weight for the masses this would be OK, but hey, I'll be following along and you can tell us your experience.

All that said, since you're on TRT+ that likely changes the equation - tipping back towards muscle sparing - I'd imagine.

 

[MrKleen73]

Good luck with this new diet Kleen! I'll admit, I'm pretty skeptical of this for the AM crowd (bodybuilders, powerlifters, etc.) - particularly for those with performance in mind. Basically, weight loss without it significantly impacting muscle loss would be my concern. Maybe for the typical just trying to lose weight for the masses this would be OK, but hey, I'll be following along and you can tell us your experience.

All that said, since you're on TRT+ that likely changes the equation - tipping back towards muscle sparing - I'd imagine.

Thanks @Segansational I totally understand the skepticism. I definitely don't see this as a lifestyle diet or anything like that. I just see it as another tool in the toolbox. Another method, that might offer certain people a benefit, while not working well for others. Same as most other options. One thing to consider it that carbs are protein sparing, fasting is also protein sparing, and when people started fasting, or when I made the big IF/ Lean Gains thread years ago I was lambasted regarding no possibility of muscle growth while fasting, and I was going to be a small wasted away version of what I was. It never happened. I can see how this diet could stave off the usual muscle loss you might see on a regular cut with the excess carbs in this diet, why would the body need to break down protein for an energy source. It just doesn't make sense that it would have a need to do so. I definitely don't see anyone gaining muscle on the protocol, but those who have been lower carb can expect LBM gains IE water and glycogen stores.

Also the assumption that this would probably be better for general population seems to be the opposite in practice. This seems to work even better for active people who are already at or below 20% rather than already obese. I think some of this comes from the fact that obesity is considered an FGF21 resistant state. Most obese people have tons of FGF21 in there system but it is ineffectual, or at a minimum much less effective in that state. We also have to consider that when in an unhindered high fgf21 state the body is separating fat from fat cells at a very accelerated rate. So on top of all of the blood sugar you have a lot of steady state fat in the system creating ATP nonstop as well. So energy / fuel levels are going to be high. Why would the body need to break down muscle tissue for energy during exercise with the 2 major energy sources in high availability in the blood stream during training? I would also suppose that in this situation the body becomes much more efficient at recycling amino acids from any tissue breakdown anyway because it is in a protein deprived state and still has bodily functions it needs to supply. So there will always be aminos in the amino acid pool in the blood. Recycling aminos is healthy for you, and something that happens during fasting at all times. If you consider this, and the bodies ability to recognize a stressed state, and offer super-compensation on the back end of this state then training in the evening before your high protein meal is going to create that effect and leave no protein wasted.

I have not begun to research drop off times, or how much protein it takes to blunt fgf21, but intend to. One thing I will say, and it seems to be being proved anecdotally is just like everything else on the body this works on a spectrum. It is not absolutes, and we are seeing people able to do this effectively with starches added in, and even fats. So the big key for the fgf21 is a protein deprived state, and the rest can be fine tuned to your liking. This is similar to IF / TRF in that aspect. It really depends on what exactly you are going for. Most importantly, I think this opens up a line of thought that we need to look at this more.

Another concern, from what I saw in the woman's blood work is that her HDL dropped by over 30 points in 8 days on this diet. Of course she was coming from carnivore which means she would need an adjustment period which I don't think 8 days will do the trick for someone who had been on Carnivore long term. That being said it went from the 80's to high 40's. I need to do a little research on how it would effect the HDL so much, and also if that is common for people who had carbs in there diet previously which I have not seen yet.


Day 1 food on Sugar Diet
Meal 1 - 280g frozen pineapples, 30g honey, & cinnamon @ 3 minutes in microwave equals Dessert breakfast. I also had 8 oz apple juice, and a cup of coffee, no creamer, 2 teaspoons table sugar. About to drop a gram of sodium down the shoot as well via sea salt.
Meal 2 -140g frozen blueberries, heated up with 40g of table sugar, plus 8 oz apple juice,
Meal 3 - 240g frozen pineapples, 44g maple syrup, and a regular coke, and 2 grams of sodium via kosher salt.
Meal 4 - 6 servings Haribo Gummy Bears - I counted these out, but honestly, I should have weighed them. It says 13 is a serving, but honestly, from what I could tell, and how far the bag went down I think they are much heavier per bear. The bag says 27 servings and what should have been 6 took almost half the bag. So I will weigh them the next time just to get an idea of if they are way off on the weight of the bears. I have a feeling I might have had more like 12 servings which would have put me way higher in carbs than expected.

Day 1 Results - Down .8 lbs from yesterday morning to 199 on the dot. Not too bad for day 1, we will watch and see what continues to happen. I will either do one protein meal tonight, or try to have 2 protein feedings tonight after training. If so, I will likely have one real food meal, and possibly one protein shake just before bed to stimulate protein synthesis and be gone 4 hours later allowing fgf21 levels to start increasing again a bit faster. I had considered doing a casein type protein here, but my thought was if low protein is the need then using a long acting protein would more than likely limit my fgf21 production longer than whey. I will have to do some research there, but that is my current assumption.

Also, their seems to be some research that it is iso-leucine specifically that shuts down fgf21 production. So there is a possibility one could supplement collagen peptides during the sugar fasting portion without any negative effects to the process. I am not testing that at this time because I want a somewhat controlled experiment. I need to see how this works as described first then I can make adjustments to see what happens afterwards.

Last night I did not end up doing more training, but I did play with my Quest VR a bit. That is a lot of dynamic movement with those games so I feel I got what I needed, and also had some fun.

Today is Push + biceps and medial delts.
Tomorrow will be an energy expenditure day, cardio, walking, games, flow, calisthenics, and mobility drills are all options for these days.

Also, I had a look at my Bearfoots last night curious what the walk on concrete did to them. There is now some obvious wear on the little tread on the sole of the shoe, so I know that is not a good idea again for sure and recommend against it. I brought in some walking shoes just in case I choose to take a walk today. I definitely need to find me some good training shows with a 0 drop, and a wide toe box. I may just pick up some more reebok crossfits or something similar for general training, and every day use. Time to bust out some older gift cards!

 

[gphagan1]

Thanks @Segansational I totally understand the skepticism. I definitely don't see this as a lifestyle diet or anything like that. I just see it as another tool in the toolbox. Another method, that might offer certain people a benefit, while not working well for others. Same as most other options. One thing to consider it that carbs are protein sparing, fasting is also protein sparing, and when people started fasting, or when I made the big IF/ Lean Gains thread years ago I was lambasted regarding no possibility of muscle growth while fasting, and I was going to be a small wasted away version of what I was. It never happened. I can see how this diet could stave off the usual muscle loss you might see on a regular cut with the excess carbs in this diet, why would the body need to break down protein for an energy source. It just doesn't make sense that it would have a need to do so. I definitely don't see anyone gaining muscle on the protocol, but those who have been lower carb can expect LBM gains IE water and glycogen stores.

Also the assumption that this would probably be better for general population seems to be the opposite in practice. This seems to work even better for active people who are already at or below 20% rather than already obese. I think some of this comes from the fact that obesity is considered an FGF21 resistant state. Most obese people have tons of FGF21 in there system but it is ineffectual, or at a minimum much less effective in that state. We also have to consider that when in an unhindered high fgf21 state the body is separating fat from fat cells at a very accelerated rate. So on top of all of the blood sugar you have a lot of steady state fat in the system creating ATP nonstop as well. So energy / fuel levels are going to be high. Why would the body need to break down muscle tissue for energy during exercise with the 2 major energy sources in high availability in the blood stream during training? I would also suppose that in this situation the body becomes much more efficient at recycling amino acids from any tissue breakdown anyway because it is in a protein deprived state and still has bodily functions it needs to supply. So there will always be aminos in the amino acid pool in the blood. Recycling aminos is healthy for you, and something that happens during fasting at all times. If you consider this, and the bodies ability to recognize a stressed state, and offer super-compensation on the back end of this state then training in the evening before your high protein meal is going to create that effect and leave no protein wasted.

I have not begun to research drop off times, or how much protein it takes to blunt fgf21, but intend to. One thing I will say, and it seems to be being proved anecdotally is just like everything else on the body this works on a spectrum. It is not absolutes, and we are seeing people able to do this effectively with starches added in, and even fats. So the big key for the fgf21 is a protein deprived state, and the rest can be fine tuned to your liking. This is similar to IF / TRF in that aspect. It really depends on what exactly you are going for. Most importantly, I think this opens up a line of thought that we need to look at this more.

Another concern, from what I saw in the woman's blood work is that her HDL dropped by over 30 points in 8 days on this diet. Of course she was coming from carnivore which means she would need an adjustment period which I don't think 8 days will do the trick for someone who had been on Carnivore long term. That being said it went from the 80's to high 40's. I need to do a little research on how it would effect the HDL so much, and also if that is common for people who had carbs in there diet previously which I have not seen yet.


Day 1 food on Sugar Diet
Meal 1 - 280g frozen pineapples, 30g honey, & cinnamon @ 3 minutes in microwave equals Dessert breakfast. I also had 8 oz apple juice, and a cup of coffee, no creamer, 2 teaspoons table sugar. About to drop a gram of sodium down the shoot as well via sea salt.
Meal 2 -140g frozen blueberries, heated up with 40g of table sugar, plus 8 oz apple juice,
Meal 3 - 240g frozen pineapples, 44g maple syrup, and a regular coke, and 2 grams of sodium via kosher salt.
Meal 4 - 6 servings Haribo Gummy Bears - I counted these out, but honestly, I should have weighed them. It says 13 is a serving, but honestly, from what I could tell, and how far the bag went down I think they are much heavier per bear. The bag says 27 servings and what should have been 6 took almost half the bag. So I will weigh them the next time just to get an idea of if they are way off on the weight of the bears. I have a feeling I might have had more like 12 servings which would have put me way higher in carbs than expected.

Day 1 Results - Down .8 lbs from yesterday morning to 199 on the dot. Not too bad for day 1, we will watch and see what continues to happen. I will either do one protein meal tonight, or try to have 2 protein feedings tonight after training. If so, I will likely have one real food meal, and possibly one protein shake just before bed to stimulate protein synthesis and be gone 4 hours later allowing fgf21 levels to start increasing again a bit faster. I had considered doing a casein type protein here, but my thought was if low protein is the need then using a long acting protein would more than likely limit my fgf21 production longer than whey. I will have to do some research there, but that is my current assumption.

Also, their seems to be some research that it is iso-leucine specifically that shuts down fgf21 production. So there is a possibility one could supplement collagen peptides during the sugar fasting portion without any negative effects to the process. I am not testing that at this time because I want a somewhat controlled experiment. I need to see how this works as described first then I can make adjustments to see what happens afterwards.

Last night I did not end up doing more training, but I did play with my Quest VR a bit. That is a lot of dynamic movement with those games so I feel I got what I needed, and also had some fun.

Today is Push + biceps and medial delts.
Tomorrow will be an energy expenditure day, cardio, walking, games, flow, calisthenics, and mobility drills are all options for these days.

Also, I had a look at my Bearfoots last night curious what the walk on concrete did to them. There is now some obvious wear on the little tread on the sole of the shoe, so I know that is not a good idea again for sure and recommend against it. I brought in some walking shoes just in case I choose to take a walk today. I definitely need to find me some good training shows with a 0 drop, and a wide toe box. I may just pick up some more reebok crossfits or something similar for general training, and every day use. Time to bust out some older gift cards!

That’s a lot of good info there, and actually does help to clarify more of how this sugar diet works.

 

[MrKleen73]

This is interesting information that lends itself to the idea that within a controlled cessation of protein throughout the day and a high protein meal at night might just be the trick to avoiding muscle loss.

Question - does high fgf21 aid in protein sparing activity in the body


When considering whether high FGF21 aids in protein-sparing activity in the body, it's important to look at both its roles in mediating adaptive responses to protein restriction and its potential influence on muscle catabolism.


FGF21's role in protein sparing

• Promoting protein homeostasis: FGF21 is secreted primarily from the liver in response to nutritional stresses, most notably a deficiency in protein or amino acids. Research suggests that FGF21 works to balance amino acid supply with demand. It represents an endocrine signal of protein restriction, coordinating metabolism and growth during periods of low protein intake.
• Increasing protein intake: In the presence of alternative protein sources, FGF21 acts in the brain to shift macronutrient preference towards higher protein intake, without increasing overall food consumption. This helps to compensate for the protein deficit and potentially reduces the need for the body to break down existing proteins.

Potential for muscle catabolism

• Dual role under protein restriction: Under protein-restricted conditions, FGF21 seems to play a dual role. While it promotes amino acid homeostasis by optimizing nutrient availability, chronic exposure to FGF21 can also trigger muscle catabolism by decreasing protein synthesis and increasing protein degradation. This may be an adaptive mechanism to ensure survival during prolonged protein scarcity.
• Activation of the HPA axis: FGF21 can cross the blood-brain barrier and activate the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, leading to increased plasma corticosterone (a glucocorticoid). This, in turn, can increase the expression of glucocorticoid receptor target genes that reduce muscle protein synthesis and promote degradation, particularly in female mice.

In summary, FGF21's actions regarding protein metabolism appear complex:

• On one hand, it initiates responses that aim to preserve protein levels by influencing food choices to favor protein intake and potentially shifting metabolism to use non-protein energy sources.
• On the other hand, in situations of chronic protein restriction, or potentially with pharmacological doses, it might contribute to muscle breakdown to provide amino acids for essential functions.

The overall effect of high FGF21 on protein sparing seems to be highly contextual and depends on factors like the availability of protein in the diet and the duration of elevated FGF21 levels.

Just from reading this, it looks like if a longer, multiple day fast you might see some muscle wasting, but if getting the minimum protein requirements in one feeding period a day you might avoid that and be able to maintain muscle, and or just lose a minimal amount similar to most dieting. As opposed to an accelerated rate that might be expected.
=========================================================

Instead of a little food for thought, here is a little thought for food.

Question
On average how long can the body go without protein on a high sugar diet without activating the HPA Axis, and at what point can you expect it to begin?


Unfortunately, there's no single, definitive answer to how long a person can go without protein on a high-sugar diet before activating the HPA axis (the body's stress response system), or when to expect that activation to begin
. This is because the exact timeframe is influenced by several individual factors, including:

• Overall health: Individuals with pre-existing health conditions or compromised immune systems may experience HPA axis activation more quickly.
• Nutritional status: A person's existing stores of nutrients, particularly protein and other essential amino acids, will affect their resilience to protein deficiency.
• Severity of the protein deficiency: A diet completely lacking in protein will have a faster and more pronounced effect than a diet with inadequate, but not entirely absent, protein.
• Individual metabolic differences: People process nutrients and respond to stress in unique ways, leading to varying timelines for HPA axis activation.

The general mechanisms involved and the potential impact of protein deficiency on the HPA axis are:

• Protein's role in neurotransmitter production: Proteins are the building blocks of neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine. These neurotransmitters play crucial roles in mood regulation and stress response.
• Protein's impact on blood sugar: A high-sugar diet provides glucose for energy. However, it can lead to blood sugar imbalances, according to Vively Health. These imbalances can stress the HPA axis as the body tries to maintain balance.
• Protein's influence on the immune system: Protein deficiency weakens the immune system, making the body more susceptible to illness and inflammation. This can further activate the HPA axis.
• Studies in animals: Research in mice shows that low-protein diets can increase anxiety and impair memory. This suggests a link between protein deficiency and altered brain function.
• High sugar's potential impact on HPA axis activity: Some studies suggest that high sugar intake can lead to increased cortisol production, possibly due to insulin resistance, according to Vively Health. Some research also indicates that a high sugar and fat diet can induce stress and HPA axis activation in rats. On the other hand, a short-term increase in glucose can increase cortisol response to acute stress. However, more prolonged sucrose consumption (three times per day for two weeks) has been shown to reduce cortisol responsiveness to stress.

In summary:

• Protein deficiency, especially with a high-sugar diet, creates a "perfect storm" for HPA axis activation. A lack of protein's essential building blocks can negatively impact neurotransmitter production, blood sugar regulation, and immune function. All of these are linked to the stress response system.
• While there is no specific timeframe for HPA axis activation in this scenario, the body's stress response will likely be triggered sooner than with a balanced diet or even a high-sugar diet with enough protein.
• Early signs may include mood swings, anxiety, fatigue, and difficulty concentrating. The severity and onset will vary individually.
• Long-term HPA axis activation due to chronic protein deficiency and stress can lead to dysfunction and have detrimental effects on both physical and mental health.

Is 20 hours without protein while on a high sugar diet going to activate the HPA Axis, or does it tend to take longer? If someone ate only sugar for 20 hours but got in all protein requirements in the evening how would this affect the activation of the HPA Axis, and would it likely lead to an increase in muscle loss, or could the late protein feeding mitigate this somewhat?

A period of 20 hours without protein while consuming only sugar could potentially trigger an HPA axis response, though the extent would depend on several factors, particularly an individual's overall health and metabolic resilience
.

Potential HPA axis activation

• Protein is crucial for the HPA axis's function: The HPA axis, responsible for managing the body's stress response and energy allocation, relies on amino acids (from protein) for producing essential neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine.
• Protein deprivation can activate the HPA axis: Studies show that restricting protein intake can activate the HPA axis and increase catecholamine levels.
• High sugar intake can exacerbate the effects of protein deficiency: The interplay between a lack of protein and high sugar intake could create a metabolic imbalance, potentially affecting HPA axis functioning.
• Blood glucose regulation and HPA axis activation: The HPA axis also plays a vital role in regulating blood glucose levels. A high-sugar diet can lead to fluctuations in blood sugar, potentially contributing to stress and HPA axis activation.

Impact of late protein feeding

• Mitigation of HPA axis response: Late protein feeding could potentially help mitigate the HPA axis activation caused by protein deprivation. Adequate protein intake helps stabilize blood sugar and provides the body with the necessary amino acids for neurotransmitter production, which could potentially reduce the HPA axis's stress response.
• Mitigation of muscle loss: Consuming the required daily protein, even if late in the day, is crucial for preserving muscle mass. Studies suggest that protein intake above the recommended daily allowance can help reduce muscle loss during periods of caloric restriction. However, a shorter eating window might limit the body's capacity to maximize muscle protein synthesis, according to Examine.com.

In summary, 20 hours of protein deprivation on a high sugar diet could potentially activate the HPA axis. However, consuming sufficient protein later in the day might help mitigate this response and reduce the risk of muscle loss. The effects would depend on individual factors like overall health and existing nutrient stores.

===============================================================

Since fat loss is the goal here activating the HPA Axis is going to be something that is needed to do this well. So we don't want to get wrapped up in that too much. You need cortisol for fat loss. However, too long in this state becomes an issue for the reasons listed above for chronic periods in this state. Getting in the required proteins in the evening seems it could be the needed light switch to turn off the HPA, and supply the body with much needed amino acids. This could create an on off switch allowing you to tailor your catabolic, and anabolic periods. Adding in a session before the protein feeding is likely going to increase anabolic activity even more, and make even better use of the protein feeding. So the concern of increased muscle loss eating an appropriate amount of protein daily at the end of the day is more than likely going to be minimal and not accelerated over any other diet. of course this is just me thinking through the information presented. Not me stating facts, but my interpretation of what I am seeing and reading. Just like anything to do with the body, what we do not want to do is create a chronic state of being deficient in something, or having too much of a surplus of something. That proves to be unhealthy, but switching things on and off makes sense.

I think we should also consider our genes and history here. As mentioned with fasting, when fasted the body activated the HPA axis to help use fats as an energy source breaking down fats and making it available for energy. This also increases insulin sensitivity. So the anabolic reaction when the switch is flipped is somewhat super compensated to reverse the damage caused during the state of distress. This happens with all things and is why we grow when we lift and damage our muscles. it is how we adapt. No consider when food was scarce, and you might not catch any prey for days, they didn't just fast unless their was no fruit or edible vegetation then. So the body was likely getting the bulk of their food from fruits and vegetation mimicking the approach here just amplified. If similar to fasting the muscle wasting does not really start until about 36 hours, which means that during the rest of that time the HPA axis is mostly working toward fat release, and not muscle wasting. We would need to be strong and capable for the hunt, not weak, and ineffectual. So there is a bit of history to this approach if you look at it that way. Just something else to consider.

 

[Dustin07]

my brain is starting to understand a number of potential benefits of this "sugar" diet. Although that much fruit I still think i'd get mouth sores from all the sweet, lol. I could see a caloric deficit until we got into the gummy bears, syrup, etc where caloric density increases substantially.

Also, I had a look at my Bearfoots last night curious what the walk on concrete did to them. There is now some obvious wear on the little tread on the sole of the shoe, so I know that is not a good idea again for sure and recommend against it.

this is an odd one to me! I didn't have bearfoots when I was barefooting, I had vibrams but probably 90% of my use was on concrete, sidewalks, etc.... I need to find mine and take a look at them...

If similar to fasting the muscle wasting does not really start until about 36 hours, which means that during the rest of that time the HPA axis is mostly working toward fat release, and not muscle wasting. We would need to be strong and capable for the hunt, not weak, and ineffectual.

yeah but isn't this also the point that we see a surge in T and HGH? I have never noticed any real muscle loss when looping together many 36 or 60+hr fasts in a month, personally.

 

[MrKleen73]

my brain is starting to understand a number of potential benefits of this "sugar" diet. Although that much fruit I still think i'd get mouth sores from all the sweet, lol. I could see a caloric deficit until we got into the gummy bears, syrup, etc where caloric density increases substantially.



this is an odd one to me! I didn't have bearfoots when I was barefooting, I had vibrams but probably 90% of my use was on concrete, sidewalks, etc.... I need to find mine and take a look at them...


yeah but isn't this also the point that we see a surge in T and HGH? I have never noticed any real muscle loss when looping together many 36 or 60+hr fasts in a month, personally.

I don't remember seeing a surge in T when fasting, but I may just not remember. I did that research so long ago. Definitely the GH, which I would assume would be pretty low in a seriously carb heavy state. However, we already know that carbs are very muscle sparing. Is it as sparing as the fasted state with GH perhaps not, but if you factor the fact you are getting in a good amount of calories so the body doesn't have to supply all of it's own energy through catabolism that there is more than likely going to be less need to break muscle tissue down, and plenty of fat in the bloodstream from the high FHF21 to offer fuel during low blood sugar periods after a spike and insulin release. So at no point would the body be low on fuel.

Also, even if i did get 12 servings of gummies last night, I never got hungry, and with an average of 100g of sugar per feeding the first 3 meals, if I got double servings of the gummies, I got 276grams of carbs in that meal. That is a whopping total of 2304 calories. Definitely still in a deficit, and resulted in .8lbs lost in one day. That is estimating my maintenance around 2600-2700.

Keep in mind that when we diet for bodybuilder style weight loss that often tends to lend itself to higher muscle catabolism the things we remove are either carbs or fats, and once a bit lower mostly carbs. So in that instance there are not enough carbs to truly hold muscle catabolism at bay, however, I got in between 440 and 576grams of carbs in a day. That is plenty to be muscle sparing. So although the muscle sparing MAO is different, it could be just as effective, and who knows, it could even be more so. It would take some studies looking at that specifically to find out, but there is no reason to think it would or would not be. Just completely different factors causing less muscle to be catabolized.

 

[Dustin07]

I don't remember seeing a surge in T when fasting, but I may just not remember.

I might have got this part backwards! I thought I had read a positive impact on T somewhere before, but a quick glance just now indicates the opposite so I might have to dig in later when I have time.

 

[MrKleen73]

I might have got this part backwards! I thought I had read a positive impact on T somewhere before, but a quick glance just now indicates the opposite so I might have to dig in later when I have time.

Keep in mind that testosterone requires cholesterol to be created. In fasting the cholesterol is going to be lower, and the body needs it for more important things than creating testosterone so it would make sense to see a drop off in testosterone production during a fast.

 

[MrKleen73]

I was a little slow on the uptake today. I got distracted looking at a couple of things, then work pulled me away. So I just had meal #1. I did have 2 cups of coffee with sugar in them earlier, but this is my first feeding with actual food.

Meal 1 - 200g frozen Wyman's wild blueberries, 30g local honey, 250ml of grape juice. + 2 cups of coffee earlier with 16g table sugar in each cup. - 131g of sugar the 2 coffee cups were earlier and spread apart by about 2 hours.

 

[MrKleen73]

Oh yeah, @Dustin07 about the shoes, Bearfoots are made for inside use, they are not a trainer but a minimalist lifting shoe. The sole is not made for walking around outside but those vibrams were designed as running shoes. They were meant for outdoor use and use a different type of rubber that is more resilient than these. The level of friction and abrasion the Bearfoots are made for is rubber flooring and or platform work. Not outside use. There was an obvious freshly warn down area where the ball of my foot was striking the ground.

 

[1HP]

I’ve been experimenting with adding in differing types and quantities of protein.

In this heightened energised state it’s actually very noticeable (for me). Some examples:

1 scoop of whey (23g P): drop in energy level, sluggish feeling, starts about 30 minutes after intake, duration about 1 hour.

2 scoops of whey (46g P): same effect , but lasts between 1.5-2 times longer.

1 scoop of clear whey (isolate) (20g P): almost unnoticeable, I feel something, but it’s too small to obsess about.

2 scoops of clear whey (40g P), roughly the same effect as 1 scoop of regular whey.

This is especially noticeable at the start of the day, later in the day it hardly bothers me, but energy levels have dropped off somewhat by then so maybe I just don’t notice it anymore.

A full pound of lean meat, with a pound of potatoes at dinner doesn’t appear to bother me at all, feels great, and it’s really easy to fall asleep ~2 hours later, so maybe this is just “natural”.

Grains and pasta bloat me, and upset my stomach to a degree now, never ever noticed that before.

For me personally there’s obviously more to it than hormonal responses, I appear to have sensitivities to foods which I simply did not know about until starting this sugar diet.

 

[Dustin07]

I was a little slow on the uptake today. I got distracted looking at a couple of things, then work pulled me away. So I just had meal #1. I did have 2 cups of coffee with sugar in them earlier, but this is my first feeding with actual food.

Meal 1 - 200g frozen Wyman's wild blueberries, 30g local honey, 250ml of grape juice. + 2 cups of coffee earlier with 16g table sugar in each cup. - 131g of sugar the 2 coffee cups were earlier and spread apart by about 2 hours.

man this approach is becoming more and more appealing to me. ironically I feel like the sugar diet though could be more expensive than a regular carbs+meat diet that you prep at home though, this much fruit could add up in a hurry I'd think. But honey in my coffee rather than fasted black coffee sounds good.

Oh yeah, @Dustin07 about the shoes, Bearfoots are made for inside use, they are not a trainer but a minimalist lifting shoe. The sole is not made for walking around outside but those vibrams were designed as running shoes. They were meant for outdoor use and use a different type of rubber that is more resilient than these. The level of friction and abrasion the Bearfoots are made for is rubber flooring and or platform work. Not outside use. There was an obvious freshly warn down area where the ball of my foot was striking the ground.

ahhh bummer!! yeah my vibrams are probably well over 10 years old. I bet I was 30 when I got them (and 30lbs lighter). they were still new enough that I got a lot of rude comments when I wore them, haha. I still remember how hard they were to learn how to put on with the pinky toe always resisting!

1 scoop of whey (23g P): drop in energy level, sluggish feeling, starts about 30 minutes after intake, duration about 1 hour.

2 scoops of whey (46g P): same effect , but lasts between 1.5-2 times longer.

1 scoop of clear whey (isolate) (20g P): almost unnoticeable, I feel something, but it’s too small to obsess about.

2 scoops of clear whey (40g P), roughly the same effect as 1 scoop of regular whey.

so as i'm reading this I'm thinking about the energy shift people experience when they go into ketosis, except when you are normally in a higher sugar routine, then introduce protein like this, the results seem reasonable since you are not ketogenic. It also makes sense to me that with this type of response, the evening protein feeding could be beneficial to help fall asleep when appropriate without pounding a handful of melatonin gummies. ?

 

[MrKleen73]

I’ve been experimenting with adding in differing types and quantities of protein.

In this heightened energised state it’s actually very noticeable (for me). Some examples:

1 scoop of whey (23g P): drop in energy level, sluggish feeling, starts about 30 minutes after intake, duration about 1 hour.

2 scoops of whey (46g P): same effect , but lasts between 1.5-2 times longer.

1 scoop of clear whey (isolate) (20g P): almost unnoticeable, I feel something, but it’s too small to obsess about.

2 scoops of clear whey (40g P), roughly the same effect as 1 scoop of regular whey.

This is especially noticeable at the start of the day, later in the day it hardly bothers me, but energy levels have dropped off somewhat by then so maybe I just don’t notice it anymore.

A full pound of lean meat, with a pound of potatoes at dinner doesn’t appear to bother me at all, feels great, and it’s really easy to fall asleep ~2 hours later, so maybe this is just “natural”.

Grains and pasta bloat me, and upset my stomach to a degree now, never ever noticed that before.

For me personally there’s obviously more to it than hormonal responses, I appear to have sensitivities to foods which I simply did not know about until starting this sugar diet.

This makes sense, and one of the studies showed that 25g of whey protein dropped FGF21 drastically. Also, the additional energy comes from the The HPA Axis being activated turning on a mild fight or flight response to encourage hunting and gathering. So it would make sense a lump of bolus of fast acting protein would lower fgf21, and also deactivate the adrenal response lowering energy levels.

man this approach is becoming more and more appealing to me. ironically I feel like the sugar diet though could be more expensive than a regular carbs+meat diet that you prep at home though, this much fruit could add up in a hurry I'd think. But honey in my coffee rather than fasted black coffee sounds good.


ahhh bummer!! yeah my vibrams are probably well over 10 years old. I bet I was 30 when I got them (and 30lbs lighter). they were still new enough that I got a lot of rude comments when I wore them, haha. I still remember how hard they were to learn how to put on with the pinky toe always resisting!



so as i'm reading this I'm thinking about the energy shift people experience when they go into ketosis, except when you are normally in a higher sugar routine, then introduce protein like this, the results seem reasonable since you are not ketogenic. It also makes sense to me that with this type of response, the evening protein feeding could be beneficial to help fall asleep when appropriate without pounding a handful of melatonin gummies. ?

I think the expense comes with how much you choose to eat fresh fruit. Frozen fruit is far more economical, and it doesn't go bad if you don't finish it in a few days. Same with canned or jarred fruits. So it can be done on a budget, but if you are an organic only type of person then you are looking at a huge expense. Not as bad as juicing, but still very high.

I was wanting something sour, but afraid to even try to eat the sour patches for what it would do to the inside of my mouth. Then I remembered, they make TWIN SNAKES!!! No vitamin c dust on them!!! So my next batch will be Twin Snakes so i can get my sour fix in without all of that acid messing up my mouth. I am still trying to keep things mostly fruit, and honey over candy, but I am going to have some fun with some candy regardless, because when is it ever okay to have a decent amount of candy and not pay the price by gaining weight.

 

[Dustin07]

those are some great ideas. as I think it through, I can see how some things like having sliced up pineapples or apples could be fairly satiating. canned fruits and frozen might be an interesting experiement.... hmm

 

[1HP]

I buy kilogram bags of frozen blueberries, cranberries, strawberries, raspberries, mango, kiwi and blend all of them together with some fresh bananas and an apple in a big morning smoothie. It’s quite affordable, much cheaper than an egg based breakfast. Additionally combining as many colours of fruits as possible should cover a broad range of vitamins.

 

[MrKleen73]

those are some great ideas. as I think it through, I can see how some things like having sliced up pineapples or apples could be fairly satiating. canned fruits and frozen might be an interesting experiement.... hmm

Oh yeah, and of course as mentioned you can do smoothies, or sprinkle sugar, syrup, or honey on them, add cinnamon if you want and make it a nice warm dessert type of situation. Warmed pineapples with honey and cinnamon is the bomb.

I buy kilogram bags of frozen blueberries, cranberries, strawberries, raspberries, mango, kiwi and blend all of them together with some fresh bananas and an apple in a big morning smoothie. It’s quite affordable, much cheaper than an egg based breakfast. Additionally combining as many colours of fruits as possible should cover a broad range of vitamins.

View attachment 253622

Nice, I tend to have berries, & pineapples, but will have a look around for some mango, kiwi, and the like. I love kiwi anyway.

I hit up a decent push session yesterday. I am not really counting reps, just working to somewhere from 2-0RIR with good form and not breaking cadence. In other words, no holding the weight to rest to get an extra rep. I kept rest periods short, and got in and got out.

Guillotine Incline Bench Press 135 x 4 sets - High Rep madness - the first set was somewhere around 20 and dropped from there - Done explosively with control riding the tension down and decelerating quickly the last 3-4 inches before a one second hold with the bar barely touching the clavicular head of my pecs.

Straight Arm Pec Dec - 110, 90, 90

Diamond Push Ups - 2 sets to failure

DB Side Raises with Dice - my buddy has 4 dice 2 normal, and 2 20 side dice. We rolled them for each other to get the rep count then picked the weight to use to try to hit the reps. So I got hit with 26, 22, and 18 reps, at 15, 10, 15 - a lot of these ended up being forced reps, we were not resting much. It was roll, count go, roll count go, roll count go. So it just progressively got harder. He was doing more of a bent arm half raise, but he also used more weight than I did. When I told him I was going with 15s the first set he almost laughed then saw I was doing them with straight arms and to parallel, and said no wonder. LOL

Single Arm Preacher Curls - 30, 25, 25

This wasn't one of those I could go on forever situations. However, the contractions were first rate, and the pump was pretty ridiculous. Shoulders wide and bulbous, chest thick and popping off of my clavicles, and triceps looking nice and plump.

I did not get anywhere near the amount of carbs in yesterday that I did the first day. Probably 100g less missing the first 2 feedings. I caught up a little bit adding more to my other meals but all in all it wasn't too bad. Final meal of the day was 1.1lbs top sirloin cut into thin stir fry style strips with Tikka Masala Sauce, and 300g of rice. I woke up exactly 2lbs heavier this morning at 201 on the dot. Looking fuller, but no less lean.

I am expecting a pretty busy day, so not sure I will be able to get back on here later once the users arrive. So going to run through whatever has been updated already and hope I have a little time later.

 

[Dustin07]

It’s quite affordable, much cheaper than an egg based breakfast.

unfortunately, I'm taking a break from eggs because my face and nose turn red like a wino lush. but my girls are producing a full bounty this summer so I wish I was eating eggs. I'm getting 7-10 a day from my hens:

Oh yeah, and of course as mentioned you can do smoothies, or sprinkle sugar, syrup, or honey on them, add cinnamon if you want and make it a nice warm dessert type of situation. Warmed pineapples with honey and cinnamon is the bomb.

So this morning I stopped by safeway on my way to work to check out prices and options. canned fruits only hold like 150 calories per can (mixed fruit) or like 220 for peaches. I'm contemplating instead of going 20:4 today and possibly tomorrow, attempting the fruited morning preWO with an afternoon lifting session. I'm still watching you three on how all this goes but a lot of sugar preWO seems like a lot more fun than fasted if I can still maintain a substantial deficit and keep my cut progress going.

DB Side Raises with Dice - my buddy has 4 dice 2 normal, and 2 20 side dice. We rolled them for each other to get the rep count then picked the weight to use to try to hit the reps. So I got hit with 26, 22, and 18 reps, at 15, 10, 15

careful, lest you go full crossfit here. lol

 

[MrKleen73]

unfortunately, I'm taking a break from eggs because my face and nose turn red like a wino lush. but my girls are producing a full bounty this summer so I wish I was eating eggs. I'm getting 7-10 a day from my hens:

View attachment 253636



So this morning I stopped by safeway on my way to work to check out prices and options. canned fruits only hold like 150 calories per can (mixed fruit) or like 220 for peaches. I'm contemplating instead of going 20:4 today and possibly tomorrow, attempting the fruited morning preWO with an afternoon lifting session. I'm still watching you three on how all this goes but a lot of sugar preWO seems like a lot more fun than fasted if I can still maintain a substantial deficit and keep my cut progress going.


careful, lest you go full crossfit here. lol

@Dustin07 Ughhh that sucks about the eggs. I know you love them. Sometimes when eating things super regularly you can develop a sensitivity to them. Hopefully after a bit off of them you can try them again and see if they still bother you.

If you are going to go that route, I recommend some grape juice with breakfast, and or maybe some gummy bears, get more glucose and dextrose in your system to get that supercharged muscle pump. Grapes are predominantly fructose but they still have a higher amount of dextrose and glucose than many other fruits. The types of sugar matter for the energy you are looking for even though about 50% of the fructose you eat is going to get converted to glucose, straight dextrose or glucose is going to be a lot more available to the muscle directly with less conversion needed. If you want more fiber maybe add in some raisins, same sugar profile as grapes, just dehydrated. If willing to go less nutritious get some gummies, they are almost pure glucose syrup, thanks @Smont for that nugget of info.

Now for some uhm... food porn? Maybe? Not sure if it looks as good as it tastes, but this is my heated up pineapple, honey, and cinnamon concoction. It smells so good too! Someone came down the hall while i was heating it up, and was like OMG that is making me hungry!!!!

240g frozen pineapple, 20g honey, and 1 cup grape juice on the side, pineapples, cinnamon, and honey were microwaved for 4 minutes to soften the pineapple, and make it a dessert food!

I have also had 2 cups of coffee with 2 teaspoons sugar each for current 132g of sugar so far today.

 

[Hyde]

I wear Xero Prio’s full-time right now when I’m not training, or wearing flip flops. That brand is all zero-drop and natural toe width for better splay.

 

[MrKleen73]

I wear Xero Prio’s full-time right now when I’m not training, or wearing flip flops. That brand is all zero-drop and natural toe width for better splay.

On my way to look these up now. Thanks @Hyde!

 

[MrKleen73]

@Hyde how do these run in size? I wear a 10 in some shoes due to foot width and height of the tops of my feet. In others I get a better fit in length with a 9.5 but they end up being too tight on the side or top of my feet. Do these seem to have a decent amount of room / flexibility for different shaped feet?

 

[Dustin07]

Hopefully after a bit off of them you can try them again and see if they still bother you.

thats what I'm hoping! maybe bring them back slowly. experiement with like a half egg and see what happens...

If you are going to go that route, I recommend some grape juice with breakfast, and or maybe some gummy bears, get more glucose and dextrose in your system to get that supercharged muscle pump. Grapes are predominantly fructose but they still have a higher amount of dextrose and glucose than many other fruits. The types of sugar matter for the energy you are looking for even though about 50% of the fructose you eat is going to get converted to glucose, straight dextrose or glucose is going to be a lot more available to the muscle directly with less conversion needed. If you want more fiber maybe add in some raisins, same sugar profile as grapes, just dehydrated. If willing to go less nutritious get some gummies, they are almost pure glucose syrup, thanks @Smont for that nugget of inf

solid idea, I could see even doing this on lifting days, then going back to 20:4 on non lifting or cardio only days potentially...

 

[Hyde]

@Hyde how do these run in size? I wear a 10 in some shoes due to foot width and height of the tops of my feet. In others I get a better fit in length with a 9.5 but they end up being too tight on the side or top of my feet. Do these seem to have a decent amount of room / flexibility for different shaped feet?

True to size - they’re built to accommodate slightly wider feet because of the built in wider toebox. I wear 10.5-11.5 wide, but almost always 11 most brands, and 11 in both pairs of Xero shoes I’ve bought are perfect.

Get a 10, since that’s what you use to accommodate yours generally.

Also, they have a full range of offerings so you can get work-appropriate/business casual options as well. Same for boots and sandals.

 

[MrKleen73]

thats what I'm hoping! maybe bring them back slowly. experiement with like a half egg and see what happens...



solid idea, I could see even doing this on lifting days, then going back to 20:4 on non lifting or cardio only days potentially...

You could grab yourself 100g sugar worth of gummies, and just start chomping 30-45 minutes preworkout, and then eat them throughout, that would be a good way to get the most glucose into the system at the time you need it to be there. Another option is 50/50 gummies: grape juice, with the grape juice mixed into your intra drink. I added a cup of Welch's 100% grape juice in with some sugarfree grape coolaid and it was damn good. I even added in about 2 grams of salt, added to the 6 grams of salt I washed down with some warm water when I took my preworkout.

True to size - they’re built to accommodate slightly wider feet because of the built in wider toebox. I wear 10.5-11.5 wide, but almost always 11 most brands, and 11 in both pairs of Xero shoes I’ve bought are perfect.

Get a 10, since that’s what you use to accommodate yours generally.

Also, they have a full range of offerings so you can get work-appropriate/business casual options as well. Same for boots and sandals.

Thanks, will do. I was looking at the other items too. Once I try these, I will check out the casual shoes. I just want to make sure the fit is right, and I like the way they feel before going all in. They definitely have some good reviews and a 5000 mile sole warranty gives a sense of confidence on the quality of the shoes. Of course I am also familiar with this.

 

[MrKleen73]

Had a good energy / movement session yesterday, did some mace work, lots of hinging, some DB work like snatchs, thrusters, and some single leg lunges brining the opposing leg up and balancing on one leg for a second to help increase ankle stability. Basically no program just a lot of movement at a quick pace. I kept my heart rate up pretty good for about 30 minutes and called it a day.

I decided to have a real meal last night too since the was actually a relatively intense training session, and I needed the food last night. Plus from what I am seeing, I am at a composition where this will be considered beneficial for muscle preservation and not too detrimental to the fat loss.

Body Weight Up .2 lbs from 201 to 201.2 this morning. I am looking decently full, and put on a shirt that normally give me a pretty good idea of where my arms are and they were nice and snug. Shoulders and chest seem nice and full too. We shall see how tings work out as we move forward. So far this week hasn't been too bad. Having one mixed macro meal in the evening seems to make it tolerable so far. The food is okay, but you definitely get tired of only fruit, candy and juices by the end of the day. I have been a little more gassy in the mornings the last 2 days, but after letting them rip for a little bit it clear up and luckily not the nasty stinky stuff, just a lot of gas that needs cleared out first thing in the morning.

 

[Dustin07]

I just try not to do it in the shower when the wife is right outside the bathroom door watching the news cause it's like the Roman Colosseum in there and its gonna sound like a herd of elephants talking to each other

 

[gphagan1]

I just try not to do it in the shower when the wife is right outside the bathroom door watching the news cause it's like the Roman Colosseum in there and its gonna sound like a herd of elephants talking to each other

Ahh, be free and let it rip….she might get a kick out of the shower ambience.

 

[MrKleen73]

Just don't do it when she is in the shower with you!

I just got back from my walk a little bit ago. Was excited about going to the gym today, but my shoulder is acting up and just walking 2 miles at lunch caused it to start lighting up and kind of felt like a 9volt battery on the tongue but in the shoulder joint. I am going to rest it today, not sure if i will do any more exercise than the walk today, seems I am right on the edge and I would rather let it calm down than agitate it more.

 

[MrKleen73]

Quick update, I did not work out last night since my shoulder had flared up already from minimal activity and I didn't want to push things. So I opted to make yesterday another sugar fast day. Sitting at 39 hours right now. I woke up this morning down 3.8lbs from yesterday morning, and a total of 2.8 lbs over the last 5 days from 200 down to 197.2. Stomach is flattening out, and getting a little more defined, which is impressive considering my waist has gone down quickly and normally it takes my skin and belly fat a bit to catch up since it is not stretched so tight around a bigger waist. So far, so good on this protocol. I absolutely would not want to eat this way permanently, and would definitely prefer the version where I eat a mixed meal each night, but my plan was to do some sugar fasts in the process to see how quickly this thing can get things moving. I am considering taking this on for one more week just to see if the progress continues then will decide if the progress is fast enough to justify continuing to eat this way longer. Although I do enjoy the "meals" if you want to call them that, I crave meat and starches. I can tell my body is like hey, WE WE'RE NOT GETTING EVERYTHING WE NEED RIGHT NOW!!!! HELLOOOOOOO, ARE YOU LISTNING!?!?!!? Where is the protein, Vit B, and iron at????

Looking forward to a decent session tonight. My original plan was to do back, but I think to allow my neck another day, I will do some leg press, and the Arsenal Hip Thrust after work. Add in some body weight walking lunges as a finisher, hit some abs, and rear delts, and maybe try pushing a sled a little bit for conditioning if I am not completely spent by the end.

By the way, yesterday was pretty much a carbon copy of what I ate Monday as far as carb count, but I had a lot more fresh fruit, they give us big fruit bowls in the morning on Thursdays, so I was able to enjoy lots of fresh fruit dipping in sugar. I had probably 7 clementines a pound of strawberries, and a couple of cups of mixed blueberries and raspberries yesterday too.

My evening meal the day before was 3 small lean pork loin steaks. 10oz cooked weight mixed up in 300g of rice with lots of seasoning!!!

 

[gphagan1]

I can tell my body is like hey, WE WE'RE NOT GETTING EVERYTHING WE NEED RIGHT NOW!!!! HELLOOOOOOO, ARE YOU LISTNING!?!?!!? Where is the protein, Vit B, and iron

Glad you’re having some success dropping some fat, but as much as I really do love fruits and vegetables, I’m a Carnivore at heart….

 

[gphagan1]

Still very interested in how it goes for you guys….on a side note my wife is wanting to give this a shot next week. So I will be in her corner rooting for her as I eat my Steak and Potatoes.

 

[MrKleen73]

Glad you’re having some success dropping some fat, but as much as I really do love fruits and vegetables, I’m a Carnivore at heart….

View attachment 253686

You and me both! However, I can temporarily deprive myself of something for a goal. Also, I just love testing new things, kicking the tires so to speak to see if it is a quality product. So far it is working, and thus far impressively. However, as much as i enjoy the sweetness of everything, I miss the meat.

That being said, there is also a big part of me that just wants to see what happens if I push this sugar fast until I train tomorrow. Would I drop another pound or two? Maybe... Will I find out without testing it? Nope. I am already well into it, so now I am trying to decide do I push the experiment, or push the weights. I am heavily considering pushing the experiment for better learning.

Okay, I am about to slam about 8grams of Himalayan sea salt with some water, and then have my first real feeding of the day. 280 grams pineapple 20g honey, and 1 cup of grape juice. So far, it has only been the sugar, and flavoring syrup in my coffee.

Still very interested in how it goes for you guys….on a side note my wife is wanting to give this a shot next week. So I will be in her corner rooting for her as I eat my Steak and Potatoes.

Haha, nice! Will you keep us updated? Also, I think it is pretty cool your wife is willing to try this before you do. I love that initiative and desire to try new things. That is how we learn about our bodies.

 

[gphagan1]

You and me both! However, I can temporarily deprive myself of something for a goal. Also, I just love testing new things, kicking the tires so to speak to see if it is a quality product. So far it is working, and thus far impressively. However, as much as i enjoy the sweetness of everything, I miss the meat.

That being said, there is also a big part of me that just wants to see what happens if I push this sugar fast until I train tomorrow. Would I drop another pound or two? Maybe... Will I find out without testing it? Nope. I am already well into it, so now I am trying to decide do I push the experiment, or push the weights. I am heavily considering pushing the experiment for better learning.

Okay, I am about to slam about 8grams of Himalayan sea salt with some water, and then have my first real feeding of the day. 280 grams pineapple 20g honey, and 1 cup of grape juice. So far, it has only been the sugar, and flavoring syrup in my coffee.

Haha, nice! Will you keep us updated? Also, I think it is pretty cool your wife is willing to try this before you do. I love that initiative and desire to try new things. That is how we learn about our bodies.

Oh yeah, I’ll let you know how it works for her. Truthfully she would have an easier time doing this than me, because she can already eat fruits and vegetables with no meat and be fine. So all fruit and fruit juices throughout the day and protein in the evening is right up her alley. Actually she said most of the time she will probably eat cottage cheese in the evenings, and just make sure she takes extra vitamins and especially iron. On weekends she will eat normal when we go out. I told her I didn’t want her doing it more than 2 - 3 weeks, because of possible nutrition deficiencies, just like you said.

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah, she will probably adjust well to that. I am more prepared than most to go into a diet like this with limited meat, because the reality is that it is easier to eat sugar all day than fasting all day. Since I am used to fasting up to 60 hours, have gone to 100 and often over 36, not eating meat for a day or two is not a huge deal for me. I am already adjusted to that part of it.

 

[1HP]

I made it through 48 hours but started feeling weak today Lost 0.5kg day 1, another 0.2kg day 2. Today eggs for breakfast, chicken for lunch and dinner, possibly a full reversal on the scale tomorrow

I like @Smont ’s idea of sugar fasting 1 or 2 days a week.

Altogether though, I did pretty well on 50/50 fruits/starches. I have to figure out which starches affect me negatively, cut those out and return to some kind of hybrid.

This may just help me figure this out quickly:

 

[MrKleen73]

I made it through 48 hours but started feeling weak today Lost 0.5kg day 1, another 0.2kg day 2. Today eggs for breakfast, chicken for lunch and dinner, possibly a full reversal on the scale tomorrow

I like @Smont ’s idea of sugar fasting 1 or 2 days a week.

Altogether though, I did pretty well on 50/50 fruits/starches. I have to figure out which starches affect me negatively, cut those out and return to some kind of hybrid.

This may just help me figure this out quickly:

Are you sure it is a food sensitivity, or just an increase in overall glycogen storage from the starches? When you eat 100g of starches 100g has a good possibility of being deposited in the muscle, however 100g of fructose is only likely to supply 50g to the muscles. So having more starches could presumably keep you more full, and therefor heavier. You did say you were looking much better at the same weight before, and didn't really lose weight until you did a sugar fast which heavily increases the fructose unless you are doing glucose based candy only, and not much fruit or fruit juices. So feasibly that might be lowering the total glycogen level in the muscle even though the the total carb count is the same.

I am definitely not saying that is what is going on, but saying it correlates, and might not be a food sensitivity causing the increase in weight. Also consider the extra sodium on those days unless you are actually monitoring sodium intake to make sure it is stable on sugar fasting days.

 

[gphagan1]

I made it through 48 hours but started feeling weak today Lost 0.5kg day 1, another 0.2kg day 2. Today eggs for breakfast, chicken for lunch and dinner, possibly a full reversal on the scale tomorrow

I like @Smont ’s idea of sugar fasting 1 or 2 days a week.

Altogether though, I did pretty well on 50/50 fruits/starches. I have to figure out which starches affect me negatively, cut those out and return to some kind of hybrid.

This may just help me figure this out quickly:

Now that’s interesting, testing your HRV response….that actually would be very beneficial, eliminating what causes issues.

 

[MrKleen73]

Now that’s interesting, testing your HRV response….that actually would be very beneficial, eliminating what causes issues.

Right, I meant to mention that too. Do they have home testing for that. or is this a test you would have to go in for labs for?

 

[gphagan1]

They have the little EKG monitors that work with your smart phone at drugstores and on Amazon.

 

[gphagan1]

Essentially this is what 1HP posted with a little more info……

Here's an explanation of how a "pre-meal open HRV response" can be used and interpreted:

• Understanding Heart Rate Variability (HRV):HRV measures the variation in time between heartbeats. It's a non-invasive way to assess the activity of your autonomic nervous system (ANS). The ANS has two branches: the sympathetic ("fight or flight") and parasympathetic ("rest and digest") nervous systems. Higher HRV generally indicates a healthier balance and adaptability of the ANS, often associated with better health and resilience.
• The "Open" Reading: In this context, an "open" HRV reading refers to a measurement taken when you are not actively engaging in anything that might significantly influence your heart rate, such as intense exercise or stress-inducing activities.
• Pre-Meal Baseline: Taking a pre-meal "open" HRV reading establishes a baseline or starting point for your autonomic nervous system activity before the digestive process begins.
• Interpreting the Response:
  • Post-Meal Drop: A noticeable and lasting drop in your HRV after eating is likely to signify an inflammatory response to the food consumed. Inflammation is a sign of stress on the body and can indicate a food sensitivity or intolerance.
  • Comparing to Subjective Measures: It's helpful to correlate the HRV changes with subjective feelings such as digestive discomfort, energy levels, headaches, or allergy-like symptoms (e.g., congestion, runny nose).
• Experiment for Food Sensitivities: To get stronger evidence, consider eliminating the suspected food(s) from your diet for a period (e.g., 30 days) and then re-introduce it while continuing to monitor your HRV and subjective responses, according to Elite HRV.

Important Notes:

• Individual variations exist, and the normal range for HRV can vary significantly from person to person.