Donald Trump running for president

puccah8808 said:
My classmate from Denmark said that they’re use to the high taxes because it goes to their “free” medical and schooling. They’re used to it so it’s like whatever... But would they still choose it if they had a choice?
Click to expand...
wow-just noticed you are a legend now...congrats!!! (y)
 
thebigt said:
lol...ask someone in their 20s if they knew they are going to die in their 30s would they still want to have social security deducted from paycheck?
Click to expand...

Maybe I screwed myself for when I am older but I put very little into social security and a lot into my savings.... am I not doing it right? Lol
 
THOR 70 said:
mRNA is experimental. Serious side effects(like autoimmunity/cancer can/could manifest years down the road and not be able to be attributed to the vaccine. Think epigenetic.
Click to expand...
Do you have a plausible biological mechanism by which mRNA and the subsequently translated proteins impart methylation/acetylation/other alterations to the genetic code?

Im genuinely curious because everyone likes to say that but without any evidence. I’m a biochemist by education, and I just don’t see a reasonable mechanism. For me, there’s got to be a lot to convince me that mRNA isn’t going to be translated into the proteins that will elicit the immune response and eventually be degraded. It seems like any side effects should be related to defects in the immune response, like guillian barre, but that generally manifests on the order of weeks to months, from what we’ve seen in other vaccines.

for those that are going to see this, the mRNA vaccine technology essentially works like this: mRNA encapsulation with lipid shell is brought into the cell where the mRNA escapes and is processed, coding only for the spike protein of sars-cov-2. Spike protein secretion to the outside of the cell where it is displayed for detection and response by the immune system.

I believe there are 9 mRNA vaccines that have been trialed in phase 1 and phase 2, going back to 2013. I get that cancer is going to be up to decades from now that people are worried about and wouldn’t be expected from the limited data from previous mRNA trials, but 6 months of good safety data without a plausible mechanism for non-reactive is long-term side effects, I don’t see it.

My thoughts on the topic are:

Modern vaccines are not generally linked to long-term terms effects. Most people might think of potential rare long-term side effects from vaccination stemming from a possible link between a 1976 H1N1 vaccination and a small increased risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Mind you this was calculated later to be an estimated 1 additional case of GBS in every 100,000-people receiving the vaccine. Consistent monitoring also suggests that any additional susceptibility to GBS from flu vaccination occurs at the rate of an additional 1-2 cases per 1 million vaccinations. Furthermore, you’re actually more likely to develop GBS from the flu than from the vaccination. I know we’re talking about COVID and not the flu, but this is the tangible evidence for long-term health effects from vaccines in modern times. There’s also a link between a 2009 vaccine and narcolepsy in Europe. Specifically, Pandemrix (monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine) was linked to narcolepsy in Finland and other countries at a rate of 3 in 100,000, compared to a normal rate of 1 in 100,000. This is still rare, and we aren’t even sure that it was entirely due to the vaccine adjuvant suspected. It looks like strong genetic predisposition (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) plus the vaccine, plus the virus itself potentially, is what caused it. There are even data to suggest that the natural infection actually is more likely to cause narcolepsy in those predisposed, compared to the pandemrix, and only like 2% of some people sampled that developed narcolepsy in that time thought to be due to the vaccine (small sample size, like 50 iirc) had any antibodies to h1n1 so they didn’t get the natural infection or the vaccine.

Nonetheless, the instances, if triggered by a vaccine, will most likely manifest within 2-3 months, which we’ve already passed because it’s been over six months since the first mRNA vaccine trials. It appears that no data substantiate the idea of long-term, latent side effects emerging years down the road. Full disclaimer, I’m not saying that we don’t know that they aren’t risk free; there’s no way of knowing right now. My estimation is that there might be something that comes up on the order of one or two cases per couple million people vaccinated, maybe. There is a general consensus, however, that the mRNA vaccines and spike protein vaccines are safer than traditional vaccines that deliver the entire dead or skeleton of the virus, compared to the single spike protein, which is more targeted and refined in generating an immune response.

The general public isn’t going to get the vaccine until spring of 2021, most likely April, which provides a year of data since phase 1 trials in May of 2020. Also, one trial idk at this point if it’s Moderna or Pfizer has over 100,000 enrollees in phase 3 trials (phase 1 started greater than six months ago); as far as safety the Ebola and shingrex vaccines had 15,900 and 32,00 enrollees in phase 3 trials respectively, so I have confidence in the candidates right now.

generally speaking, I’m not taking it until all the data are out, the aforementioned hypotheses are supported, and I’ve discussed it with medical doctors, scientists, and those who know more than I do. I wouldn’t advocate for myself or anyone else to make an uniformed decision, either way.

also, to my knowledge, only Pfizer and Moderna (Edit: and a few others) are mRNA, out of like 100 candidates. Some of the other popular ones are actually vector spike vaccines. There’s actually a good amount of variation
 
Last edited:
puccah8808 said:
Maybe I screwed myself for when I am older but I put very little into social security and a lot into my savings.... am I not doing it right? Lol
Click to expand...
unfortunately most of my life i worked for corporations like international paper and had little choice in what i paid into social security....with that said, savings are great!!!
 
thebigt said:
unfortunately most of my life i worked for corporations like international paper and had little choice in what i paid into social security....with that said, savings are great!!!
Click to expand...

When I was in my 20’s and a libtard, I thought we were supposed to claim zero all year so we could be tax rich. F*cking saggy dirty balls. They took so much from me but I barely got anything back. Of course I didn’t have much deductions either but damn, after that I started claiming what I needed and not what I thought I was supposed to claim. As long as I even out at the end of the year, I am ok, because I am not struggling throughout the year!

thebigt said:
12,000 posts...you are a legend!!!!
Click to expand...

Ahhh, thanks, Big! I feel like a legend on here! Haha jk
 
mavup said:
Do you have a plausible biological mechanism by which mRNA and the subsequently translated proteins impart methylation/acetylation/other alterations to the genetic code?

Im genuinely curious because everyone likes to say that but without any evidence. I’m a biochemist by education, and I just don’t see a reasonable mechanism. For me, there’s got to be a lot to convince me that mRNA isn’t going to be translated into the proteins that will elicit the immune response and eventually be degraded. It seems like any side effects should be related to defects in the immune response, like guillian barre, but that generally manifests on the order of weeks to months, from what we’ve seen in other vaccines.

for those that are going to see this, the mRNA vaccine technology essentially works like this: mRNA encapsulation with lipid shell is brought into the cell where the mRNA escapes and is processed, coding only for the spike protein of sars-cov-2. Spike protein secretion to the outside of the cell where it is displayed for detection and response by the immune system.

I believe there are 9 mRNA vaccines that have been trialed in phase 1 and phase 2, going back to 2013. I get that cancer is going to be up to decades from now that people are worried about and wouldn’t be expected from the limited data from previous mRNA trials, but 6 months of good safety data without a plausible mechanism for non-reactive is long-term side effects, I don’t see it.

My thoughts on the topic are:

Modern vaccines are not generally linked to long-term terms effects. Most people might think of potential rare long-term side effects from vaccination stemming from a possible link between a 1976 H1N1 vaccination and a small increased risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Mind you this was calculated later to be an estimated 1 additional case of GBS in every 100,000-people receiving the vaccine. Consistent monitoring also suggests that any additional susceptibility to GBS from flu vaccination occurs at the rate of an additional 1-2 cases per 1 million vaccinations. Furthermore, you’re actually more likely to develop GBS from the flu than from the vaccination. I know we’re talking about COVID and not the flu, but this is the tangible evidence for long-term health effects from vaccines in modern times. There’s also a link between a 2009 vaccine and narcolepsy in Europe. Specifically, Pandemrix (monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine) was linked to narcolepsy in Finland and other countries at a rate of 3 in 100,000, compared to a normal rate of 1 in 100,000. This is still extremely rare, and we aren’t even sure that it was entirely due to the vaccine adjuvant suspected. It looks like strong genetic predisposition (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) plus the vaccine, plus the virus itself potentially, is what caused it.

Nonetheless, the instances, if triggered by a vaccine, will most likely manifest within 2-3 months, which we’ve already passed because it’s been over six months since the first mRNA vaccine trials. It appears that no data substantiate the idea of long-term, latent side effects emerging years down the road. Full disclaimer, I’m not saying that we don’t know that they aren’t risk free; there’s no way of knowing right now. My estimation is that there might be something that comes up on the order of one or two cases per couple million people vaccinated, maybe. There is a general consensus, however, that the mRNA vaccines and spike protein vaccines are safer than traditional vaccines that deliver the entire dead or skeleton of the virus, compared to the single spike protein, which is more targeted and refined in generating an immune response.

The general public isn’t going to get the vaccine until spring of 2021, most likely April, which provides a year of data since phase 1 trials in May of 2020. Also, one trial idk at this point if it’s Moderna or Pfizer has over 100,000 enrollees in phase 3 trials (phase 1 started greater than six months ago); as far as safety the Ebola and shingrex vaccines had 15,900 and 32,00 enrollees in phase 3 trials respectively, so I have confidence in the candidates right now.

generally speaking, I’m not taking it until all the data are out, the aforementioned hypotheses are supported, and I’ve discussed it with medical doctors, scientists, and those who know more than I do. I wouldn’t advocate for myself or anyone else to make an uniformed decision, either way.

also, to my knowledge, only Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA, ouof like 100 candidates. Some of the other popular ones are actually vector spike vaccines.
Click to expand...

Holy krap, this is above my paygrade, lol

Thanks for the good read :)
 
ax1 said:
I know this is an older post but how can you say it cost your family “nothing” when they had been paying taxes for years into the system by force the entire time....and kept paying it when you got out too all the way up until they retired?
Click to expand...
I prefer the idea of a system where I know I won't go bankrupt should something happen unexpectedly to me.

When I was 18, I went snowboarding and someone inexperienced plowed into me on a downhill slope while I was off to the side fixing my boots. Snowboard edge went right through both my shins to the bone and I had to get helicoptered to a hospital.

Cost me nothing out of pocket.

Had I been sent a bill, it would have been in the thousands, if not tens of thousands for an accident that only occurred because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You might say my taxes covered that, and I get that, but let's say the average income is $50,000 per year, the total income tax is approx $8,000 of that, and approximately 20% goes to healthcare. That means approximately $1600 goes to healthcare per year, per average income.

Over a lifetime of working, let's say 50 years (retirement age is 65), that person would pay $80,000 into the healthcare system.

I've probably used that amount already in my life for my numerous hospital visits/ stays. My hip dysplasia came unexpectedly (got out of bed, got ready for school, lay down on the floor to watch morning cartoons and then couldn't walk again), I've had surgery twice on my cheek after a playground accident and then the snowboarding accident.

Now consider how much in insurance you spend per year, and how much your deductible is etc and see how it stacks up - also consider that you pay taxes as well into healthcare already.

People also conveniently forget that insurance is basically just a bunch of people pooling money together to cover one another in case something happens. Let's say your house burns down, and your home insurance pays you out $500,000. You didn't contribute $500,000, so why does other peoples money need to bail you out? Or maybe your car got t-boned by some person who ran a stop sign or a red light and wrote it off. Why should someone else help pay for your car to be repaired?
 
Last edited:
mavup said:
Do you have a plausible biological mechanism by which mRNA and the subsequently translated proteins impart methylation/acetylation/other alterations to the genetic code?

Im genuinely curious because everyone likes to say that but without any evidence. I’m a biochemist by education, and I just don’t see a reasonable mechanism. For me, there’s got to be a lot to convince me that mRNA isn’t going to be translated into the proteins that will elicit the immune response and eventually be degraded. It seems like any side effects should be related to defects in the immune response, like guillian barre, but that generally manifests on the order of weeks to months, from what we’ve seen in other vaccines.

for those that are going to see this, the mRNA vaccine technology essentially works like this: mRNA encapsulation with lipid shell is brought into the cell where the mRNA escapes and is processed, coding only for the spike protein of sars-cov-2. Spike protein secretion to the outside of the cell where it is displayed for detection and response by the immune system.

I believe there are 9 mRNA vaccines that have been trialed in phase 1 and phase 2, going back to 2013. I get that cancer is going to be up to decades from now that people are worried about and wouldn’t be expected from the limited data from previous mRNA trials, but 6 months of good safety data without a plausible mechanism for non-reactive is long-term side effects, I don’t see it.

My thoughts on the topic are:

Modern vaccines are not generally linked to long-term terms effects. Most people might think of potential rare long-term side effects from vaccination stemming from a possible link between a 1976 H1N1 vaccination and a small increased risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Mind you this was calculated later to be an estimated 1 additional case of GBS in every 100,000-people receiving the vaccine. Consistent monitoring also suggests that any additional susceptibility to GBS from flu vaccination occurs at the rate of an additional 1-2 cases per 1 million vaccinations. Furthermore, you’re actually more likely to develop GBS from the flu than from the vaccination. I know we’re talking about COVID and not the flu, but this is the tangible evidence for long-term health effects from vaccines in modern times. There’s also a link between a 2009 vaccine and narcolepsy in Europe. Specifically, Pandemrix (monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine) was linked to narcolepsy in Finland and other countries at a rate of 3 in 100,000, compared to a normal rate of 1 in 100,000. This is still rare, and we aren’t even sure that it was entirely due to the vaccine adjuvant suspected. It looks like strong genetic predisposition (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) plus the vaccine, plus the virus itself potentially, is what caused it. There are even data to suggest that the natural infection actually is more likely to cause narcolepsy in those predisposed, compared to the pandemrix, and only like 2% of some people sampled that developed narcolepsy in that time thought to be due to the vaccine (small sample size, like 50 iirc) had any antibodies to h1n1 so they didn’t get the natural infection or the vaccine.

Nonetheless, the instances, if triggered by a vaccine, will most likely manifest within 2-3 months, which we’ve already passed because it’s been over six months since the first mRNA vaccine trials. It appears that no data substantiate the idea of long-term, latent side effects emerging years down the road. Full disclaimer, I’m not saying that we don’t know that they aren’t risk free; there’s no way of knowing right now. My estimation is that there might be something that comes up on the order of one or two cases per couple million people vaccinated, maybe. There is a general consensus, however, that the mRNA vaccines and spike protein vaccines are safer than traditional vaccines that deliver the entire dead or skeleton of the virus, compared to the single spike protein, which is more targeted and refined in generating an immune response.

The general public isn’t going to get the vaccine until spring of 2021, most likely April, which provides a year of data since phase 1 trials in May of 2020. Also, one trial idk at this point if it’s Moderna or Pfizer has over 100,000 enrollees in phase 3 trials (phase 1 started greater than six months ago); as far as safety the Ebola and shingrex vaccines had 15,900 and 32,00 enrollees in phase 3 trials respectively, so I have confidence in the candidates right now.

generally speaking, I’m not taking it until all the data are out, the aforementioned hypotheses are supported, and I’ve discussed it with medical doctors, scientists, and those who know more than I do. I wouldn’t advocate for myself or anyone else to make an uniformed decision, either way.

also, to my knowledge, only Pfizer and Moderna (Edit: and a few others) are mRNA, out of like 100 candidates. Some of the other popular ones are actually vector spike vaccines. There’s actually a good amount of variation
Click to expand...

I appreciate your well thought out reply. Since you have put more time and effort into the topic, I will not act like I have an exact mechanism identified by which said side effects can/could/would occur. If I had to point to a a plausible mechanism, it is laid out in your vaccine MOA explanation. For one, Spike protein excretion to the outside of the cell could trigger more of an immune response than desired, for longer than desired, resulting in an over reactive immune system,

We must remember that while science has made leaps and bounds, and helped so many people, it it will always be flawed by one thing: human pride. To think we can manipulate intracellularly/signal genetic coding and fully understand all the effects and especially long term effects 100% is just that...pride.

You mention the flu vaccine. A couple years back I listened to a lecture from an infectious disease doctor who works directly with the CDC. He told the audience that for the last two years the flu vaccine had 0% efficacy. So with this “benefit to society” 1-2 GBS per million is unnecessary and unacceptable.

Again, I appreciate your input. It’s also been identified by many smarter than I that this virus has been altered to have a gain of function, but that’s another discussion.
 
Jiigzz said:
Now consider how much in insurance you spend per year, and how much your deductible is etc and see how it stacks up - also consider that you pay taxes as well into healthcare already.

People also conveniently forget that insurance is basically just a bunch of people pooling money together to cover one another in case something happens. Let's say your house burns down, and your home insurance pays you out $500,000. You didn't contribute $500,000, so why does other peoples money need to bail you out? Or maybe your car got t-boned by some person who ran a stop sign or a red light and wrote it off. Why should someone else help pay for your car to be repaired?
Click to expand...

We dont have real health insurance and a free market health care system in America.

Insurance is supposed to be just that, a market value is assessed on a risk nothing else, and its there just in case something bad happens. The way its designed as it, its not insurance here in America, we do not have it....its just a bloated government corrupted health care system, its not efficient and Id bet if I checked the books most of the money goes to paying for bureaucracy rather than actual health care.

Insurance is supposed to be simply a consumer service, nobody is forced into it. If you opt to get insurance of course its a system where more than likely your paying a market cost on a risk where more than likely and hopefully you will not need the service, and the pool makes money available to those who do need to unfortunately use the services.

Your supporting a system where people's money are stolen against their will at gunpoint and told how to best spend it. What if I want to choose to buy better organic food but Im short because government keeps raping my earnings? Or what If I wished I had extra money to better spend it on helping starving children and simply let myself be responsible for my own risks in life?

There are alot of solutions to health care that respect people's individual freedoms and humanity. Government simply stealing it is a humanitarian crime, especially when one cannot opt out and a gun is pointed to their heads and put in a cage if they refuse to comply.
 
Jiigzz said:
I prefer the idea of a system where I know I won't go bankrupt should something happen unexpectedly to me.

When I was 18, I went snowboarding and someone inexperienced plowed into me on a downhill slope while I was off to the side fixing my boots. Snowboard edge went right through both my shins to the bone and I had to get helicoptered to a hospital.

Cost me nothing out of pocket.

Had I been sent a bill, it would have been in the thousands, if not tens of thousands for an accident that only occurred because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You might say my taxes covered that, and I get that, but let's say the average income is $50,000 per year, the total income tax is approx $8,000 of that, and approximately 20% goes to healthcare. That means approximately $1600 goes to healthcare per year, per average income.

Over a lifetime of working, let's say 50 years (retirement age is 65), that person would pay $80,000 into the healthcare system.

I've probably used that amount already in my life for my numerous hospital visits/ stays. My hip dysplasia came unexpectedly (got out of bed, got ready for school, lay down on the floor to watch morning cartoons and then couldn't walk again), I've had surgery twice on my cheek after a playground accident and then the snowboarding accident.

Now consider how much in insurance you spend per year, and how much your deductible is etc and see how it stacks up - also consider that you pay taxes as well into healthcare already.

People also conveniently forget that insurance is basically just a bunch of people pooling money together to cover one another in case something happens. Let's say your house burns down, and your home insurance pays you out $500,000. You didn't contribute $500,000, so why does other peoples money need to bail you out? Or maybe your car got t-boned by some person who ran a stop sign or a red light and wrote it off. Why should someone else help pay for your car to be repaired?
Click to expand...

Remind me again why I should be forced to cover your risk if I don’t want to?
 
mavup said:
Do you have a plausible biological mechanism by which mRNA and the subsequently translated proteins impart methylation/acetylation/other alterations to the genetic code?

Im genuinely curious because everyone likes to say that but without any evidence. I’m a biochemist by education, and I just don’t see a reasonable mechanism. For me, there’s got to be a lot to convince me that mRNA isn’t going to be translated into the proteins that will elicit the immune response and eventually be degraded. It seems like any side effects should be related to defects in the immune response, like guillian barre, but that generally manifests on the order of weeks to months, from what we’ve seen in other vaccines.

for those that are going to see this, the mRNA vaccine technology essentially works like this: mRNA encapsulation with lipid shell is brought into the cell where the mRNA escapes and is processed, coding only for the spike protein of sars-cov-2. Spike protein secretion to the outside of the cell where it is displayed for detection and response by the immune system.

I believe there are 9 mRNA vaccines that have been trialed in phase 1 and phase 2, going back to 2013. I get that cancer is going to be up to decades from now that people are worried about and wouldn’t be expected from the limited data from previous mRNA trials, but 6 months of good safety data without a plausible mechanism for non-reactive is long-term side effects, I don’t see it.

My thoughts on the topic are:

Modern vaccines are not generally linked to long-term terms effects. Most people might think of potential rare long-term side effects from vaccination stemming from a possible link between a 1976 H1N1 vaccination and a small increased risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Mind you this was calculated later to be an estimated 1 additional case of GBS in every 100,000-people receiving the vaccine. Consistent monitoring also suggests that any additional susceptibility to GBS from flu vaccination occurs at the rate of an additional 1-2 cases per 1 million vaccinations. Furthermore, you’re actually more likely to develop GBS from the flu than from the vaccination. I know we’re talking about COVID and not the flu, but this is the tangible evidence for long-term health effects from vaccines in modern times. There’s also a link between a 2009 vaccine and narcolepsy in Europe. Specifically, Pandemrix (monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine) was linked to narcolepsy in Finland and other countries at a rate of 3 in 100,000, compared to a normal rate of 1 in 100,000. This is still rare, and we aren’t even sure that it was entirely due to the vaccine adjuvant suspected. It looks like strong genetic predisposition (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) plus the vaccine, plus the virus itself potentially, is what caused it. There are even data to suggest that the natural infection actually is more likely to cause narcolepsy in those predisposed, compared to the pandemrix, and only like 2% of some people sampled that developed narcolepsy in that time thought to be due to the vaccine (small sample size, like 50 iirc) had any antibodies to h1n1 so they didn’t get the natural infection or the vaccine.

Nonetheless, the instances, if triggered by a vaccine, will most likely manifest within 2-3 months, which we’ve already passed because it’s been over six months since the first mRNA vaccine trials. It appears that no data substantiate the idea of long-term, latent side effects emerging years down the road. Full disclaimer, I’m not saying that we don’t know that they aren’t risk free; there’s no way of knowing right now. My estimation is that there might be something that comes up on the order of one or two cases per couple million people vaccinated, maybe. There is a general consensus, however, that the mRNA vaccines and spike protein vaccines are safer than traditional vaccines that deliver the entire dead or skeleton of the virus, compared to the single spike protein, which is more targeted and refined in generating an immune response.

The general public isn’t going to get the vaccine until spring of 2021, most likely April, which provides a year of data since phase 1 trials in May of 2020. Also, one trial idk at this point if it’s Moderna or Pfizer has over 100,000 enrollees in phase 3 trials (phase 1 started greater than six months ago); as far as safety the Ebola and shingrex vaccines had 15,900 and 32,00 enrollees in phase 3 trials respectively, so I have confidence in the candidates right now.

generally speaking, I’m not taking it until all the data are out, the aforementioned hypotheses are supported, and I’ve discussed it with medical doctors, scientists, and those who know more than I do. I wouldn’t advocate for myself or anyone else to make an uniformed decision, either way.

also, to my knowledge, only Pfizer and Moderna (Edit: and a few others) are mRNA, out of like 100 candidates. Some of the other popular ones are actually vector spike vaccines. There’s actually a good amount of variation
Click to expand...

Awesome reply, thank you! This is in line with a lot of my research. I understand how it works on the high level you explained...or maybe 1 level below but it blows my mind how smart people are out there that they are playing with this stuff and figure this all out. And what is even more mind boggling about it is I know some people who work for these companies working on this stuff and it is really kind of cool how some people working on it get the entire thing and have it mastered at such a level, but then some people are just focused on one little piece and doing a job they were given and you wouldn't look at them and say they are a genius (smart but not genius), but their hard work is contributing to the genius of it all and often they find data that will make the genius overseeing everything g go, "hey, that changes everything!"

Not sure if I make sense there...just guess it gives me hope to see people who are slightly better than average working hard and contributing at genius levels.

What I was seeing in my early research is that mRNA vaccines were still early on and never tested in humans yet until now. But I am nit sure because I haven't gotten through much yet and it looks like there may be some data in cancer treatments and now you mention there is some data.

Combining that I was coming from the stance that it was so early with no human data yet, and that there was evidence that not only could the RNA code cause increases in interferon-y but the nanoparticles themselves could also do this - which is also a liver issue - I was mostly concerned with people who may have inappropriate immune responses like my gf with pemphigus or my business partner with Crohn's, people with lupus, etc. Or people who may have genetic factors for these diseases that have not been triggered and then we find out an abnormal IFN response is a trigger for turning on such diseases. Not saying they will or trying to make any decisions. Coming from your stance, I am uneducated and your insight gives me some paths to go down.

Plus, we will likely be opening a business next year and the idea has been floated amongst the partners to make sure key personel, at least, are vaccinated and I am against the idea of forcing someone to vaccinate, but even more against the idea of doing so without knowledge.
 
Jiigzz said:
I prefer the idea of a system where I know I won't go bankrupt should something happen unexpectedly to me.

When I was 18, I went snowboarding and someone inexperienced plowed into me on a downhill slope while I was off to the side fixing my boots. Snowboard edge went right through both my shins to the bone and I had to get helicoptered to a hospital.

Cost me nothing out of pocket.

Had I been sent a bill, it would have been in the thousands, if not tens of thousands for an accident that only occurred because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You might say my taxes covered that, and I get that, but let's say the average income is $50,000 per year, the total income tax is approx $8,000 of that, and approximately 20% goes to healthcare. That means approximately $1600 goes to healthcare per year, per average income.

Over a lifetime of working, let's say 50 years (retirement age is 65), that person would pay $80,000 into the healthcare system.

I've probably used that amount already in my life for my numerous hospital visits/ stays. My hip dysplasia came unexpectedly (got out of bed, got ready for school, lay down on the floor to watch morning cartoons and then couldn't walk again), I've had surgery twice on my cheek after a playground accident and then the snowboarding accident.

Now consider how much in insurance you spend per year, and how much your deductible is etc and see how it stacks up - also consider that you pay taxes as well into healthcare already.

People also conveniently forget that insurance is basically just a bunch of people pooling money together to cover one another in case something happens. Let's say your house burns down, and your home insurance pays you out $500,000. You didn't contribute $500,000, so why does other peoples money need to bail you out? Or maybe your car got t-boned by some person who ran a stop sign or a red light and wrote it off. Why should someone else help pay for your car to be repaired?
Click to expand...

I appreciate this, and I am going to oversimplify here for "effect" admittedly.

But I prefer the idea of not having to pay off my credit card if I use it to by a TV that stopped working a day after the warranty expired. But I won't get what I prefer while I am in this life.

And I agree that if you get injured by someone else, the bills should not be on you - but on the person who injured you. Even still you take some risks being around other people and that is life.

And, of course...people injure others everyday and the person who gets injured suffers because the person who injured them is simply incapable of paying for the damage, so I do recognize that you have some points and it is a complex issue.
 
Also, since this is about politics, the business I am starting is in the logistics field. We have been watching the need for cold storage of these vaccines - and in my research, as mavup states, it seems there are more options on the way including one going to Phase 2 trials that is stable at room temp for a week. Of course this makes the logistics WAY easier.

So we see Biden talking about no plan for distribution that he has seen - Trump hasn't been cooperative but hey, I thought Biden and Obama already had a plan they handed Trump 4 years ago? Guess it doesn't exist anymore and he is starting "behind and from scratch when he takes over.

But as a private enterprise, we were already not planning on doing much to accommodate the needs of this vaccine because it did not make sense for us financially at this point, and I think most bigger players will be looking at it in a similar fashion. Knowing that maybe in 1 year those huge investments will be no longer needed and utoo specialized for any other real use, why would Trump plan distribution around it?
 
HIT4ME said:
I appreciate this, and I am going to oversimplify here for "effect" admittedly.

But I prefer the idea of not having to pay off my credit card if I use it to by a TV that stopped working a day after the warranty expired. But I won't get what I prefer while I am in this life.

And I agree that if you get injured by someone else, the bills should not be on you - but on the person who injured you. Even still you take some risks being around other people and that is life.

And, of course...people injure others everyday and the person who gets injured suffers because the person who injured them is simply incapable of paying for the damage, so I do recognize that you have some points and it is a complex issue.
Click to expand...

Thats why we can all win by having an affordable and efficient health care system and actual real health insurance without imposing ones world views on others how best they should spend their money without giving people an option to opt out.

Its a good idea not to eat shyt, drink and smoke and better spend their money on quality food, but somehow if I impose my world views on others I am evil. Of course I dont do that I only help people who ask for it and give suggested advice even if its more helpful than these health care extremists.

Anyways the point is people even when have well intentions, when they go to low extremes as to support the idea of forcing others their moralities and use an armed force to have others on the same page.

If socialist health care was that good, you wouldnt need armed thugs to get 10s of millions of people to buy in.

Those who condone this type of system via force rather than finding other common sense solutions that dont violate the human rights of people are truly bullies.
 
LMFAO Ive been called tin foil hundreds of times for talking about this tech in the past, now Government wears the tin foil!

"directed pulsed RF (radio frequency) energy"

'Sonic attacks' suffered by US diplomats likely caused by microwave energy, government study says

Invalid Link Removed
 
HIT4ME said:
Also, since this is about politics, the business I am starting is in the logistics field. We have been watching the need for cold storage of these vaccines - and in my research, as mavup states, it seems there are more options on the way including one going to Phase 2 trials that is stable at room temp for a week. Of course this makes the logistics WAY easier.

So we see Biden talking about no plan for distribution that he has seen - Trump hasn't been cooperative but hey, I thought Biden and Obama already had a plan they handed Trump 4 years ago? Guess it doesn't exist anymore and he is starting "behind and from scratch when he takes over.

But as a private enterprise, we were already not planning on doing much to accommodate the needs of this vaccine because it did not make sense for us financially at this point, and I think most bigger players will be looking at it in a similar fashion. Knowing that maybe in 1 year those huge investments will be no longer needed and utoo specialized for any other real use, why would Trump plan distribution around it?
Click to expand...

Distribution of the CCP vaccine has been a big talking point for King Cumho for a while now....he has been calling it the biggest movement of government since WWII. He talks how there has been some 180 million tests yet we need to get 330 million people a shot (yeah right!) twice, so thats 660 million shots.

So this is obviously an incredibly massive under taking....and Cumho still says that we need to get this to black and brown people because Dump's rollout plan is racist and that its Dump's fault that more ratio of black/brown people arent getting enough testing and dying at a higher rate because Im sure they are begging for more testing, lol

So what about your logistics? Do you have black/brown on the map?? Because if not then I guess your a racist.

He does acknowledge a large portion of CCP vacc skeptics which is why he made his own "panel" to go over safety which I myself think its a good idea of checks and balances in between people and the Fed. Not that I trust the NY government, LOL but Im just saying its a good concept of State Powers to practice.
 
Jiigzz said:
I prefer the idea of a system where I know I won't go bankrupt should something happen unexpectedly to me.

When I was 18, I went snowboarding and someone inexperienced plowed into me on a downhill slope while I was off to the side fixing my boots. Snowboard edge went right through both my shins to the bone and I had to get helicoptered to a hospital.

Cost me nothing out of pocket.

Had I been sent a bill, it would have been in the thousands, if not tens of thousands for an accident that only occurred because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You might say my taxes covered that, and I get that, but let's say the average income is $50,000 per year, the total income tax is approx $8,000 of that, and approximately 20% goes to healthcare. That means approximately $1600 goes to healthcare per year, per average income.

Over a lifetime of working, let's say 50 years (retirement age is 65), that person would pay $80,000 into the healthcare system.

I've probably used that amount already in my life for my numerous hospital visits/ stays. My hip dysplasia came unexpectedly (got out of bed, got ready for school, lay down on the floor to watch morning cartoons and then couldn't walk again), I've had surgery twice on my cheek after a playground accident and then the snowboarding accident.

Now consider how much in insurance you spend per year, and how much your deductible is etc and see how it stacks up - also consider that you pay taxes as well into healthcare already.

People also conveniently forget that insurance is basically just a bunch of people pooling money together to cover one another in case something happens. Let's say your house burns down, and your home insurance pays you out $500,000. You didn't contribute $500,000, so why does other peoples money need to bail you out? Or maybe your car got t-boned by some person who ran a stop sign or a red light and wrote it off. Why should someone else help pay for your car to be repaired?
Click to expand...
the government is incompetent. every program the government has that is supposedly in place to help the poor and needy is riddled with abuse/corruption/waste. to turn healthcare over to the US government would be a total disaster in my humble opinion.

the US is far more complicated than countries like new zealand where socialized medicine appears to work, and much more prone to dishonesty i am ashamed to say.
 
thebigt said:
the government is incompetent. every program the government has that is supposedly in place to help the poor and needy is riddled with abuse/corruption/waste. to turn healthcare over to the US government would be a total disaster in my humble opinion.

the US is far more complicated than countries like new zealand where socialized medicine appears to work, and much more prone to dishonesty i am ashamed to say.
Click to expand...

Remember when the government exempted themselves from Obobocare? LMfAO so Obobocare is that good the lawmakers wanted their families not part of it!!!!!
 
Obobocare as I remember it....

Obobo: 10s of millions of Americans desperately want health care, so I’ll tell ya what folks, buy health insurance or you will be officially a criminal and I’ll have the IRS use guns to not only keep your tax returns but we will just rape your bank if you still owe!

Obobolobby to Obobo: nice job, are you sure you don’t want to sign up?

Obobo: Fuq no!
 
education insitutions, financial institutions, medical institutions even military institutions, sites you would think are un-hackable have all been hacked...i was just reading where whistleblowers are saying dominion voting systems were connected to the internet...at least one whisteleblower who signed a affidavit is a former dominion employee who swore on a oath dominion was connected to internet.
 
32 states allow voters to send ballots over the internet...anyone care to guess which states?
 
I heard Rudy Julianna has the CCP virus.
 
Last edited:
Ricky10 said:
Appears to be the case...

Yet another blow to the Trump campaign. He just can’t catch a break!
Click to expand...

I saw that the libs are super happy....
 
Ricky10 said:
Appears to be the case...

Yet another blow to the Trump campaign. He just can’t catch a break!
Click to expand...

I saw that the libs are super happy....
 
puccah8808 said:
I saw that the libs are super happy....
Click to expand...
I can only imagine. I don’t think we will ever hear about anyone in the Biden administration (if it comes to fruition) getting the China virus. Being forthcoming and honest with people is certainly not a virtue they possess.
 
Ricky10 said:
I can only imagine. I don’t think we will ever hear about anyone in the Biden administration (if it comes to fruition) getting the China virus. Being forthcoming and honest with people is certainly not a virtue they possess.
Click to expand...

It’s just disgusting to see how excited people are. And you are so right about that!
 
dixonk said:
Remind me again why I should be forced to cover your risk if I don’t want to?
Click to expand...
Insurance is exactly that. So what's the difference?

I bet you have house insurance, why should others be forced to cover your house if they don't want to? You do it because covering someone else's risk lowers the cost of covering your own.

Here's the thing, you pay health insurance which covers the risks of everyone also in the same fund already, so what's the difference?

The same % of my taxes goes on healthcare as yours does, except I dont also have to pay premiums on top of that.
 
Last edited:
Jiigzz said:
Insurance is exactly that. So what's the difference?

I bet you have house insurance, why should others be forced to cover your house if they don't want to? You do it because covering someone else's risk lowers the cost of covering your own.

Here's the thing, you pay health insurance which covers the risks of everyone also in the same fund already, so what's the difference?

The same % of my taxes goes on healthcare as yours does, except I dont also have to pay premiums on top of that.
Click to expand...

They are not forced to buy homeowners insurance. I am specifically referring to the govt forcing me to buy health insurance. It’s wrong. If I choose to buy health insurance then I am choosing to share my risk for you. I don’t want the govt to micromanage my life. I don’t need a govt. In my life at all as a matter of fact. I just wish people could start taking a little more self responsibility and stop DEMANDING others take care of them. What is so hard about that?
 
dixonk said:
They are not forced to buy homeowners insurance. I am specifically referring to the govt forcing me to buy health insurance. It’s wrong. If I choose to buy health insurance then I am choosing to share my risk for you. I don’t want the govt to micromanage my life. I don’t need a govt. In my life at all as a matter of fact. I just wish people could start taking a little more self responsibility and stop DEMANDING others take care of them. What is so hard about that?
Click to expand...
But home insurance is the same principle. You'd be silly not to have it, because the risk is losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. You might never need the insurance, but you have it because of the risk.

With health it is the same. At any point something can happen. I had hip dysplasia that developed randomly and immediately. People break bone or get knocked out by random, unforeseeable events all the time. At all times there exists a level of risk, regardless of how healthy you think you are.
 
Jiigzz said:
Insurance is exactly that. So what's the difference?

I bet you have house insurance, why should others be forced to cover your house if they don't want to? You do it because covering someone else's risk lowers the cost of covering your own.

Here's the thing, you pay health insurance which covers the risks of everyone also in the same fund already, so what's the difference?

The same % of my taxes goes on healthcare as yours does, except I dont also have to pay premiums on top of that.
Click to expand...

Insurance is an option, socialist medicine is enforced with a gun.
 
Jiigzz said:
But home insurance is the same principle. You'd be silly not to have it, because the risk is losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. You might never need the insurance, but you have it because of the risk.

With health it is the same. At any point something can happen. I had hip dysplasia that developed randomly and immediately. People break bone or get knocked out by random, unforeseeable events all the time. At all times there exists a level of risk, regardless of how healthy you think you are.
Click to expand...

If universal healthcare was so good you wouldn't need armed thugs enforcing the system telling people how best to spend their money.

With home insurance, people actually go to their car and drive to their insurance agency and ask to buy a policy on their own with no armed thugs telling people how to spend their money or even get a policy in the first place.

The first is unethical, the later is ethical.
 
Jiigzz said:
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Thats because our hospitals here are heavily regulated by the government and we dont have real free market health insurance available.

If we had a free market system and ran ICUs like plastic surgery clinics, competitive and more free market with far less government regulation and the massive expensive bureaucracy in the way. Perhaps that 10k would have cost 2k, there wouldnt have been shortages and free market insurance would be very low cost since its run as real insurance rather than a health care ponzi scheme set up by government and lobbyists.
 
Let's just remember that the series Breaking Bad only worked because it was based in the US.

If he were Canadian, the series would have ended in the pilot with him getting treatment lol
 
LolInvalid Link Removed
 
Jiigzz said:
Let's just remember that the series Breaking Bad only worked because it was based in the US.

If he were Canadian, the series would have ended in the pilot with him getting treatment lol
Click to expand...

Brock Lesnar almost died because of the Canadian health care system.
 
ax1 said:
Brock Lesnar almost died because of the Canadian health care system.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that people don't die in the US health system?

Because they do. And using 1 example doesn't change the core argument.
 
Jiigzz said:
Are you saying that people don't die in the US health system?

Because they do. And using 1 example doesn't change the core argument.
Click to expand...

I’m saying the entire time the US healthcare system is shyt and corrupted by government for decades leading to outrageous costs and the loss of the concept of real health insurance (there is no health insurance in the USA, it’s just high bureaucratic managed care) and to think I want government to save us from the problems they created, I always say absolutely not.

I want government out of my life and get back to direct doctor-patient services with no middle man and bring in real health insurance should tragic fiscal circumstances arrive.

But yes of course we have a lot of problems here but they must be address humanely and intelligently.
 
Jiigzz said:
But home insurance is the same principle. You'd be silly not to have it, because the risk is losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. You might never need the insurance, but you have it because of the risk.

With health it is the same. At any point something can happen. I had hip dysplasia that developed randomly and immediately. People break bone or get knocked out by random, unforeseeable events all the time. At all times there exists a level of risk, regardless of how healthy you think you are.
Click to expand...

Ok which aspect of forced govt mandated insurance is wrong do you not understand? You are trying to convince me of the benefit of having insurance. I am aware of how insurance works and I am aware that having it is smart money in some cases. But you will never convince me that making me buy it is right. If I choose not to contribute then I should have that freedom. Any other way is theft and the govt is no different than an armed thug holding me at gunpoint and robbing me.
 
dixonk said:
Ok which aspect of forced govt mandated insurance is wrong do you not understand? You are trying to convince me of the benefit of having insurance. I am aware of how insurance works and I am aware that having it is smart money in some cases. But you will never convince me that making me buy it is right. If I choose not to contribute then I should have that freedom. Any other way is theft and the govt is no different than an armed thug holding me at gunpoint and robbing me.
Click to expand...
Correct, but then you should also not get any benefit of the scheme, which would never happen because US law requires treatment in an emergency.

"The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA) is a federal law that requires anyone coming to an emergency department to be stabilized and treated, regardless of their insurance status or ability to pay"

So then guess what happens? Taxes pay anyway.
 
no chill today...metallica-enter sandman live moscow 91

energy boost for shore!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top