Clomid during cycle

[Jinsun]

Yeah tbol might be a better choice bc it will most probably be nor faked and not underdosed. It is hoeever more suppressive then var isn't it? What I would do is 400mg primo e + serm.

What's wrong with crypto? That's the best option of payment. WG is also good but takes more effort and time.

 

[Wildcat528]

Yeah tbol might be a better choice bc it will most probably be nor faked and not underdosed. It is hoeever more suppressive then var isn't it? What I would do is 400mg primo e + serm.

What's wrong with crypto? That's the best option of payment. WG is also good but takes more effort and time.

I’m just unfamiliar with crypto and have read some bitcoin horror stories. Maybe I’ll opt for it though. Would you personally run tbol instead at 50mg/day. Also, I want to make it clear that my goal is to run a very conservative cycle on a low dose that will hopefully result in me not being shut down. I’m glad to be a test subject with this but please keep in mind the goal which is my primary concern. From what I’ve seen and presumably 50mg var/day will cause significantly worse suppression than 20mg no? Given my primary goal with the experiment being secondary what would y’all recommend? Thanks everyone for the insight!

 

[RickyBlobby]

I’m just unfamiliar with crypto and have read some bitcoin horror stories. Maybe I’ll opt for it though. Would you personally run tbol instead at 50mg/day. Also, I want to make it clear that my goal is to run a very conservative cycle on a low dose that will hopefully result in me not being shut down. I’m glad to be a test subject with this but please keep in mind the goal which is my primary concern. From what I’ve seen and presumably 50mg var/day will cause significantly worse suppression than 20mg no? Given my primary goal with the experiment being secondary what would y’all recommend? Thanks everyone for the insight!

What is your goal? LBS lost/ gained? Your BF#, height and weight?

 

[Wildcat528]

What is your goal? LBS lost/ gained? Your BF#, height and weight?

Goal is either recomp or cut. Ideally recomp but I’m not trying to bulk up. If I could have achieve a few pounds of added lbm while dropping a few pounds of fat I’d be content. I’m 6’1” and around 185 lbs. BF is tough to say, I would asess myself as pretty fit, maybe 12-15% or in that ballpark. Oh and I’m 28 years old, been lifting consistently since about 16. Scientist by trade so I value research and proof. If you’d like any more info for your recommendation just let me know! Thanks for all the help btw!

 

[RickyBlobby]

If your goal is to limit suppression, and recomp a little, I believe 20mg of tbol would be a good dose. With a carb cycling diet and intermittent fasting/ fasted cardio you should be pretty happy with the results, if you train and eat properly. You could probably run it 10-12 weeks. Maybe cycle clen 2 on/ 2 off during the cycle. Your high carb days would be the days you train the largest muscle groups....legs and back, and on your low/ no carb days focus on more cardio/ higher rep routines.

I wanna say the east germans gave their powerlifters 20mg of tbol a day during the Olympics.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Yeah tbol might be a better choice bc it will most probably be nor faked and not underdosed. It is hoeever more suppressive then var isn't it? What I would do is 400mg primo e + serm.

What's wrong with crypto? That's the best option of payment. WG is also good but takes more effort and time.

Turinabol doesn’t cost much less than anavar. I wouldn’t be surprised if ugls faked it at all.

 

[Wildcat528]

If your goal is to limit suppression, and recomp a little, I believe 20mg of tbol would be a good dose. With a carb cycling diet and intermittent fasting/ fasted cardio you should be pretty happy with the results, if you train and eat properly. You could probably run it 10-12 weeks. Maybe cycle clen 2 on/ 2 off during the cycle. Your high carb days would be the days you train the largest muscle groups....legs and back, and on your low/ no carb days focus on more cardio/ higher rep routines.

I wanna say the east germans gave their powerlifters 20mg of tbol a day during the Olympics.

Thanks so much for the insight and advice man! It is immensely appreciated. I’m certainly looking forward to it for sure and will be updating periodically when I kick this experiment off!

 

[Jinsun]

Well you want to find out the maximum dosage you can run without suppression don't you? So go for 50 var and if you get to suppressed start lowering it.

25mg's of var is really not a lot. Combined with torem and the price/results/sides of both I would just go mk677 + dac But this discussion is not for this thread.

 

[Wildcat528]

Well you want to find out the maximum dosage you can run without suppression don't you? So go for 50 var and if you get to suppressed start lowering it.

25mg's of var is really not a lot. Combined with torem and the price/results/sides of both I would just go mk677 + dac But this discussion is not for this thread.

Agreed but unfortunately can’t run the dac with it being injectable. If the lady friend found a needle and syringe she would probably stab me through the eye. 25-50mg of var it is or 12.5-25mg of mk677. I will only update in this thread after I run the var of course as it’s the only one applicable to this thread.

 

[Dthcore]

[video=youtube;DkI3U5LVMkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkI3U5LVMkE[/video]


BUMP!! What are your guys thoughts on this?

 

[CatSnake]

[video=youtube;DkI3U5LVMkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkI3U5LVMkE[/video]


BUMP!! What are your guys thoughts on this?

I agree that HCG is a great idea, but even if you take this, there's gonna be a lag time while your body has to resume GnRH production, and therefore LH/FSH production.


he talks about his testosterone levels post cycle, but he's forgetting that the HCG actually forces the testes to produce testosterone (HCG has a direct action on the testes, much like some SERMs and PDE5 inhibitors), so talking about his levels in that context is pointless, unless he mentions with other hormones, as well.


IMHO, use HCG while on, and then transition to a SERM while tapering off your on-cycle AI.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442

anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288969-info-ais.html





.

 

[Newth]

...........Tylenol.....liver regeneration.......

Honestly I CBF finding your posts about Tylenol but read you posting a decent bit about your family use of it and the livers resilience.
Today I decided to look up what it was....we call it Panadol.

My mother has been using anywhere between 2-4g of it with 120-240mg of Codine per day for over 40 years....only time she ever had a liver issue was when she was on MS meds and after a bit of Milk Thistle her neurologist couldn't believe how fast it healed.

Edit: Lots of heavy drinking along the way too.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Yeah liver damage is highly overrated unless you have a preexisting condition. Even with one you are highly unlikely to die or even have major complications from a 10-12 week steroid cycle. My father in law had liver enzyzes in the MILLIONS from hepatitis PLUS painkillers PLUS alcohol and his liver is still functioning

 

[christ83189]

Yeah liver damage is highly overrated unless you have a preexisting condition. Even with one you are highly unlikely to die or even have major complications from a 10-12 week steroid cycle. My father in law had liver enzyzes in the MILLIONS from hepatitis PLUS painkillers PLUS alcohol and his liver is still functioning

Thats freaking nuts

 

[RickyBlobby]

Right. The liver is a tough sumbitch. When I see guys with liver enzymes below 1,000 and are freaking out I just LOL

 

[BBiceps]

So, an order is in for Var and Clomid, planning on 8 week Var of 40mg ed and Clomid for 12 weeks at 25mg ed, starting at the same time.

What do you guys think?

 

[Hyde]

BLOODWORK DRAWN AT END OF 10 WEEK CYCLE WITH 30-60mg TOREMIFENE DAILY:

Invalid Link Removed

Note that LH & FSH are at the bottom of the range but not altogether crashed. Test of 220 isn’t necessarily relevant, as the hormones may be able to skew that. But LH not being crashed means I can get a jump start on recovery instead of starting from ground zero.

Also, the size of my testes, while reduced, definitely did not shrink as much as normal, even being on 10 weeks. It definitely appears that Toremifene has some potent stimulation in the testes, and could be useful for a quicker recovery from shorter milder cycles as commonly seen around here. So Clomid on cycle certainly could be worth a look as well.

 

[Transhuman]

BLOODWORK DRAWN AT END OF 10 WEEK CYCLE WITH 30-60mg TOREMIFENE DAILY:

How does your lipid panel using torem compare to previous cycles?

 

[Hyde]

Cycle was:

10 weeks of 20-40mg Var, 2-3 pumps of OL 11kt, 6-9 pumps Musclegelz Androhard androsterone & epiandro, 5 weeks of 15mg S23 earlier on and 6 weeks of 40mg DMZ & 8 of 20mg Ostarine on the back end. Added 20mg DHEA nightly on the back half.

I have never had less sides on a cycle or felt so good the first 2 days of PCT so far. Support was 500mg TUDCA, 1.2g NAC, Fishoil, 10k iu D3, significant amounts of electrolytes

 

[CatSnake]

BLOODWORK DRAWN AT END OF 10 WEEK CYCLE WITH 30-60mg TOREMIFENE DAILY:

Invalid Link Removed

Note that LH & FSH are at the bottom of the range but not altogether crashed. Test of 220 isn’t necessarily relevant, as the hormones may be able to skew that. But LH not being crashed means I can get a jump start on recovery instead of starting from ground zero.

Also, the size of my testes, while reduced, definitely did not shrink as much as normal, even being on 10 weeks. It definitely appears that Toremifene has some potent stimulation in the testes, and could be useful for a quicker recovery from shorter milder cycles as commonly seen around here. So Clomid on cycle certainly could be worth a look as well.

this might be a stupid question, but did you happen to have pre-cycle labs done?

 

[Hyde]

this might be a stupid question, but did you happen to have pre-cycle labs done?

Yes, they were posted in this exact thread prior to start. This was one month prior:

Invalid Link Removed

NOTE: I have Gilbert’s Syndrome, where my body naturally produces higher liver enzyme levels in blood. I have bloodwork from years and years ago before ever cycling that show my baseline Bilirubin to run at the top of the normal range. Jaundice typically sets in above 3.5 total, for reference. You can see my liver is actually happier on cycle with TUDCA and NAC than off.

 

[Hyde]

How does your lipid panel using torem compare to previous cycles?

This cycle was as bad as any of mine (all largely oral-based), but there are too many moving parts here. Var is rumored to hurt lipids, DMZ certainly will, my cholesterol was already higher prior to start, my diet was fairly sad on this cycle, but most importantly estrogen has never been this low (save for a time I crashed it with letro years back). There’s just nothing in this cycle giving off any estrogen at all. Lessons learned.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I just got a PM from Hiddengains (quoted)

Bro spurfy is right i just got my blood work results. I've been taking lgd for like 3 months. Last month or so i started taking 10mg of nolvadex with the lgd and aromasin maybe once a week. LH, FSH both in range, and test at 464. In 3 months I'll try DMZ or Msten with 30mg of Torem

 

[RickyBlobby]

Hate to say I told you so.... but

 

[CatSnake]

Hate to say I told you so.... but

LOL

yup, total testosterone is 1/4 of what it was before the cycle. LH and FSH cut in half. E2 down to 1/4 as well (which partially explains the negative effect on cholesterol).

Spurfy has claimed that tore is protective of lipids on cycle, BUT that declined quite a bit in this case as well. (please stop claiming he his bloodwork as well-he has yet to post it proving his "theory").


this didn't really "work".....

 

[RickyBlobby]

Umm, did you read all the stuff he was on? He was on a SHYT load of suppressive compounds and his LH and FSH were within range. And he stated that his PCT is going smoother than ever.

And hiddengains has total T in normal range after 3 months of LGD.

Spurfy confirmed normal LH and FSH through blood work.

I confirmed T in normal range through blood work.

Plus at least 3 other people in this thread.

So yeah. If you cycle/ PCT... that is a whole lot of evidence suggesting running a serm on cycle is beneficial. Smoother PCT, less need for an AI, lipid protection etc

 

[Hyde]

LOL

yup, total testosterone is 1/4 of what it was before the cycle. LH and FSH cut in half. E2 down to 1/4 as well (which partially explains the negative effect on cholesterol).

Spurfy has claimed that tore is protective of lipids on cycle, which declined quite a bit in this case as well.


this didn't really "work".....

I am very glad I ran it truthfully - I’ll take LH of 2.0 before starting PCT over 0.3 or similar. It definitely could be helpful for the younger guys on here just piddling with 4-6week oral cycles, or 8 week LGD runs. It also gives some merit to the notion of on-cycle Clomid speeding recovery from milder cycles.

 

[CatSnake]

I am very glad I ran it truthfully - I’ll take LH of 2.0 before starting PCT over 0.3 or similar. It definitely could be helpful for the younger guys on here just piddling with 4-6week oral cycles, or 8 week LGD runs. It also gives some merit to the notion of on-cycle Clomid speeding recovery from milder cycles.

here's my thoughts....

while a SERM might minimize some of the HPTA suppression, it clearly can't prevent it (you still have reduced LH/FSH and testicular atrophy). but HCG can pretty much eliminate testicular atrophy/suppression. obviously that sets you up for PCT, when/where the SERM can trigger the GnRH>LH/FSH pathway.... (and you still have to take a SERM now, anyway, right?!?)

also, HCG doesn't decrease IGF1 like the SERM does. additionally, HCG doesn't block the anabolic effect of estrogen like a SERM, which is another significant growth factor.

HCG simply allows for more significant growth factor pathways over a SERM, not to mention, it can actually prevent some of the aspects of HPTA suppression (testicular pathway), whereas a SERM can only hope to minimize that.

Invalid Link Removed



Hyde, I appreciate your honest review and thoughts, because even though I feel this is a flawed theory, I respect people that actually give things a shot and post their own clinical data. RickyBlobby, I respect that your willingness to debate and fight for your position as well. you guys both clearly make this a better site.




.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I like the idea of hcg on cycle. Problem is not everyone can get it and it goes bad so damn fast.

But taking HCG will not keep your LH and FSH from tanking, correct? That leads me to ask, how much HCG/ SERM overlap should you shoot for to allow your LH to recover in time to prevent HTPA crash upon cessation of the HCG?

 

[CatSnake]

I like the idea of hcg on cycle. Problem is not everyone can get it and it goes bad so damn fast.

But taking HCG will not keep your LH and FSH from tanking, correct? That leads me to ask, how much HCG/ SERM overlap should you shoot for to allow your LH to recover in time to prevent HTPA crash upon cessation of the HCG?

well, yeah, LH and FSH will still drop. but I've never heard of a SERM, in particular clomid, failing to raise LH/FSH (however, it COULD happen). however, if you allow the testes to atrophy, then you need to wait for that to recover before you can get the full effect of LH/FSH. so having high LH/FSH levels doesn't really matter if you have testicular atrophy.....

as far as the overlap, I guess it depends on the cycle? I think for most guys, using a low dose of HCG until the last couple weeks seems to work well (and then blasting it EOD). and then transition to the SERM.... heck, one could combine the SERM and HCG for a week or 2. you mentioned that a while back, and I'm kinda coming around to that idea....


FWIW, I agree about sourcing HCG. if you can't get it, then I absolutely agree about using a SERM on cycle (I just feel that it's a 2nd best option).

 

[Jinsun]

I've heard now from several people that a serm did nothing to for LH when they were on a cycle that included test. My results also confirm this. So as we have speculated before, serms can help with lower suppression cycles and they probably help keep the testis a bit more alive. My recommendation would be to start a low dose serm something like two weeks before pct start. I know I've stated this before in this thread but imo it's worth repeating it. Obviously a serm can not replace a test base, so lets forget about using it as one and start thinking about it's protective property's on the testicles that helps with a quicker recovery. And for hpta help one can see benefits only if it's a cycle that isn't so harsh on hpta.

 

[Hyde]

well, yeah, LH and FSH will still drop. but I've never heard of a SERM, in particular clomid, failing to raise LH/FSH (however, it COULD happen). however, if you allow the testes to atrophy, then you need to wait for that to recover before you can get the full effect of LH/FSH. so having high LH/FSH levels doesn't really matter if you have testicular atrophy.....

as far as the overlap, I guess it depends on the cycle? I think for most guys, using a low dose of HCG until the last couple weeks seems to work well (and then blasting it EOD). and then transition to the SERM.... heck, one could combine the SERM and HCG for a week or 2. you mentioned that a while back, and I'm kinda coming around to that idea....


FWIW, I agree about sourcing HCG. if you can't get it, then I absolutely agree about using a SERM on cycle (I just feel that it's a 2nd best option).

I've heard now from several people that a serm did nothing to for LH when they were on a cycle that included test. My results also confirm this. So as we have speculated before, serms can help with lower suppression cycles and they probably help keep the testis a bit more alive. My recommendation would be to start a low dose serm something like two weeks before pct start. I know I've stated this before in this thread but imo it's worth repeating it. Obviously a serm can not replace a test base, so lets forget about using it as one and start thinking about it's protective property's on the testicles that helps with a quicker recovery. And for hpta help one can see benefits only if it's a cycle that isn't so harsh on hpta.

I really have to agree heavily with everything you guys have said in these 2 posts.

If someone is running an oral/transdermal only cycle for ~8 weeks or less, taking some cheap RC Clomid or Torem daily could help speed recovery significantly - and it’s easy for most to get ahold of. At a minimum, preloading the PCT SERM last 2 weeks of cycle could be considered.

If running any injectables, go with tried and true HCG if available to maintain sensitivity. But a SERM on a more suppressive run is probably wasting money & taking extra drugs for nothing.

 

[blongo804]

If someone is running an oral/transdermal only cycle for ~8 weeks or less, taking some cheap RC Clomid or Torem daily could help speed recovery significantly - and it’s easy for most to get ahold of. At a minimum, preloading the PCT SERM last 2 weeks of cycle could be considered.

This thread is making me consider the bolded above toward the end of my DMZ solo cycle.

I was only going to run DMZ 6 weeks then SERM (nolva) for 3-4 weeks, but maybe I'll give DMZ 8 weeks, SERM (20mg ed) for week 7 & 8 while on, as well as SERM 3-4 weeks post cycle. I do have pre-DMZ bloods for reference too. I'm thinking this will help combat the end of cycle lethargy I'm bound to have without a test base, while also allow me to maximize my time with DMZ. Hmm..

 

[Hyde]

This thread is making me consider the bolded above toward the end of my DMZ solo cycle.

I was only going to run DMZ 6 weeks then SERM (nolva) for 3-4 weeks, but maybe I'll give DMZ 8 weeks, SERM (20mg ed) for week 7 & 8 while on, as well as SERM 3-4 weeks post cycle. I do have pre-DMZ bloods for reference too. I'm thinking this will help combat the end of cycle lethargy I'm bound to have without a test base, while also allow me to maximize my time with DMZ. Hmm..

That won’t work the way you want - we proved that the SERM on cycle can’t maintain natural production over time. What it seems to do is increase LH, so recovery in PCT begins faster & smoother when you finally discontinue the steroids.

SERM on cycle may mean easier PCT, but cannot function as a real test base.

 

[RickyBlobby]

That won’t work the way you want - we proved that the SERM on cycle can’t maintain natural production over time. What it seems to do is increase LH, so recovery in PCT begins faster & smoother when you finally discontinue the steroids.

SERM on cycle may mean easier PCT, but cannot function as a real test base.

To be fair, you were on a LOT of suppressive compounds, which is why your t was so low, likely.

But for hiddengains, who was only on LGD, his test, although low was within normal range. As was mine on 50mg dbol and 400mg primo.

While this may not be ideal as far as hormone levels a 450 test level isn’t horrible.. what I’m getting at is that for a single oral compound, the serm May provide enough of a base to combat serious low T sides. Not to mention T levels should rise quickly upon cessation of the anabolic compound due to already decent LH levels and minimal testicular atrophy.

Again, you were really on a lot of shyt lol.

 

[Hyde]

To be fair, you were on a LOT of suppressive compounds, which is why your t was so low, likely.

But for hiddengains, who was only on LGD, his test, although low was within normal range. As was mine on 50mg dbol and 400mg primo.

While this may not be ideal as far as hormone levels a 450 test level isn’t horrible.. what I’m getting at is that for a single oral compound, the serm May provide enough of a base to combat serious low T sides. Not to mention T levels should rise quickly upon cessation of the anabolic compound due to already decent LH levels and minimal testicular atrophy.

Again, you were really on a lot of shyt lol.

A lot of very mild compounds. I also suspect the DMZ to be underdosed based on the other 3 times I have used it. I would expect at least the same suppression from 10 weeks of 500mg test.

I agree, using from the start for a single oral/SARM should definitely help maintain natural production longer (and speed recovery). But the above poster only planned to use Nolva last 2 weeks of cycle, once he’s already shut down. At that point, he won’t have any endogenous production to maintain and will strictly be getting a smoother PCT - but no natural test back while still on.

 

[blongo804]

That won’t work the way you want - we proved that the SERM on cycle can’t maintain natural production over time. What it seems to do is increase LH, so recovery in PCT begins faster & smoother when you finally discontinue the steroids.

SERM on cycle may mean easier PCT, but cannot function as a real test base.

I didn't mean I'd use nolva as a base, but more so just to ease myself into PCT. Sorry I wasn't clear initially on that!

My train of thought is that, by week 6 on DMZ, i'll like be fairly lethargic, and nolva may help combat that until I discontinue DMZ.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I didn't mean I'd use nolva as a base, but more so just to ease myself into PCT. Sorry I wasn't clear initially on that!

My train of thought is that, by week 6 on DMZ, i'll like be fairly lethargic, and nolva may help combat that until I discontinue DMZ.

If you’re worried about lethargy I would suggest running throughout, as once your levels tank, they probably won’t recover enough in 2 weeks to make a difference, especially on a strong compound like DMZ. It would probably help you ease into PCT, that’s about it.

 

[blongo804]

If you’re worried about lethargy I would suggest running throughout, as once your levels tank, they probably won’t recover enough in 2 weeks to make a difference, especially on a strong compound like DMZ. It would probably help you ease into PCT, that’s about it.

I'm not too concerned about the lethargy - hoping it's nothing a little caffeine can handle. It is my first cycle though, so just reading threads like these to get as much insight as I can really. Thanks to you and Hyde for your thoughts!

 

[BillD]

How suppressive would be a low dose S4 run during a cut? Maybe like 30mg S4 a day.

 

[Jinsun]

I'm not too concerned about the lethargy - hoping it's nothing a little caffeine can handle. It is my first cycle though, so just reading threads like these to get as much insight as I can really. Thanks to you and Hyde for your thoughts!

Nah man, caffein wont solve it haha It sucks. You'll also have crackling joints, maybe ED, sleep will suck, maybe anxiety, an even worse lipid profile, etc. It's not worth it.

 

[Jinsun]

A lot of very mild compounds. I also suspect the DMZ to be underdosed based on the other 3 times I have used it. I would expect at least the same suppression from 10 weeks of 500mg test.

Test will shutt you down 100% in a week, two weeks time. Can't compare.

I hate to say it, but there are so many uncontrollable variables here. Most notably nobody really knows what they are taking. Underdosed or maybe even different compounds altogether. Also we are talking about different serms. Clomid vs nolva/torem. Clomid seems to be better. And not to mention person to person pharmacokinetics variability, etc.

I'll order some clomid tomorrow and start taking it right away as I'll go into pct in 3 weeks time. I'll report back with results/bloods. 500mg test, 30mg dbol cycle.

 

[rtmilburn]

I have been a big Supporter of this theory.

However, I want to add that this MAY not optimal for long or heavily suppressive cycles. I do believe if you use 19nors that you should still use a serm on cycle. This is because, I believe, it will protect your htpa(hpga) from the damaging effects they have on it.

For me a serm on cycle is not about the having the most optimal gains. It is about protecting your htpa(hpga) from long term damage. Thus minimizing the possibility of HAVING to deal with hypogonadism and TRT.

I do believe that for short cycle a serm can, and will, minimize most of suppression.(not all by any means). Thus making PCT easier, and protecting your htpa(hpga).

Look at bloodwork with ostrine people have normalish lh and fish but tanked test levels. I believe if you used a serm on cycle you, possibly, could maintain completely normal levels of everything. Leading to NO gains lots during PCT.

With longer cycle serm may not be best for gains, as it CAN mess with other hormonal pathways that MAY reduce overall gains. Hcg could be a better option. However, this only keeps the nuts going not the the pituitary or hypothalamus.

Also ive said it a ton I REALLY question the legitimacy of any hcg you get. I won't go down that rabbit hole again though.

In the end if you goal is only gains, and you don't mind ending up on trt, then a serm on cycle is not for you.

However, if you are willing to sacrifice some gains, and to protect you htpa(hpga); as you don't want to end up on trt, then a serm on cycle is a must have.

 

[Hyde]

Test will shutt you down 100% in a week, two weeks time. Can't compare.

I hate to say it, but there are so many uncontrollable variables here. Most notably nobody really knows what they are taking. Underdosed or maybe even different compounds altogether. Also we are talking about different serms. Clomid vs nolva/torem. Clomid seems to be better. And not to mention person to person pharmacokinetics variability, etc.

I'll order some clomid tomorrow and start taking it right away as I'll go into pct in 3 weeks time. I'll report back with results/bloods. 500mg test, 30mg dbol cycle.

I really would recommend trying it. I feel fantastic for PCT. I literally popped wood last night, Day 3 of PCT. No cialis or any tricks - genuine arousal and function. Not my hardest, but plenty to git r done

Having 2.0 LH already at start of PCT really did make a big difference.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Having 2.0 LH already at start of PCT really did make a big difference.

Not to mention functional testes

 

[blongo804]

Nah man, caffein wont solve it haha It sucks. You'll also have crackling joints, maybe ED, sleep will suck, maybe anxiety, an even worse lipid profile, etc. It's not worth it.

Oy! Caffeine + new joints on hand for replacement? lol

Guess I'll just see how DMZ goes solo, and keep lurking this thread to continue learning. About 1.5 weeks in and feel fine so far.

 

[Jinsun]

Look at bloodwork with ostrine people have normalish lh and fish but tanked test levels. I believe if you used a serm on cycle you, possibly, could maintain completely normal levels of everything. Leading to NO gains lots during PCT.

Exactly my case. My LH was 3.5 pre cycle and 3.0 5 full weeks into 25mg osta ed. My TT was basically zero.

I still have no idea though how ostarin works. How can it keep LH normal and shuttdown test production? Also, how do you think a serm can help?

 

[CatSnake]

I have been a big Supporter of this theory.

However, I want to add that this MAY not optimal for long or heavily suppressive cycles. I do believe if you use 19nors that you should still use a serm on cycle. This is because, I believe, it will protect your htpa(hpga) from the damaging effects they have on it.

For me a serm on cycle is not about the having the most optimal gains. It is about protecting your htpa(hpga) from long term damage. Thus minimizing the possibility of HAVING to deal with hypogonadism and TRT.

I do believe that for short cycle a serm can, and will, minimize most of suppression.(not all by any means). Thus making PCT easier, and protecting your htpa(hpga).

Look at bloodwork with ostrine people have normalish lh and fish but tanked test levels. I believe if you used a serm on cycle you, possibly, could maintain completely normal levels of everything. Leading to NO gains lots during PCT.

With longer cycle serm may not be best for gains, as it CAN mess with other hormonal pathways that MAY reduce overall gains. Hcg could be a better option. However, this only keeps the nuts going not the the pituitary or hypothalamus.

Also ive said it a ton I REALLY question the legitimacy of any hcg you get. I won't go down that rabbit hole again though.

In the end if you goal is only gains, and you don't mind ending up on trt, then a serm on cycle is not for you.

However, if you are willing to sacrifice some gains, and to protect you htpa(hpga); as you don't want to end up on trt, then a serm on cycle is a must have.

I recall reading a while back that tamoxifen can upregulate the progesterone receptor, which could be really bad while on a 19-nor based steroid.

in that case, I would absolutely not use this, as well. not to mention the suppressive effects of stuff like nandrolone need to be managed a lot more aggressively...

 

[CatSnake]

Exactly my case. My LH was 3.5 pre cycle and 3.0 5 full weeks into 25mg osta ed. My TT was basically zero.

I still have no idea though how ostarin works. How can it keep LH normal and shuttdown test production? Also, how do you think a serm can help?

I think one of the issues with ostarine, is that nobody knows if what they're taking is really ostarine.....

I'm still perplexed by some of the side effects people have on the SARMs.

 

[Matthersby]

I think one of the issues with ostarine, is that nobody knows if what they're taking is really ostarine.....

I'm still perplexed by some of the side effects people have on the SARMs.

I have a Pure Research Oils Osta I literally can’t GIVE away. I’ve been trying for months.