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Clomid during cycle

Bump
 
Because there are so many naysayers. Its not popular opinion. But several of us in this thread have tried with success.
 
Dandecoteau said:
Why doesn’t everyone just do this? If it was so effective it would be normal protocol
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I saw a guy run a trial on this years ago who debunked it all pretty quick. like you said, if it worked so well, then there would be a ton of evidence (i.e bloodwork, clinical data, etc) to show it.

it's prolly better than not doing ANY pct, but like I've said many times, is not without it's own drawbacks and might simply be ineffective, to boot.
 
There is evidence in this thread that it works. Some just choose to believe what they want to believe. Look at the post on the top of the page. Spurfy has done bloodwork several times and torem kept his LH and FSH steady while ON cycle.
 
RickyBlobby said:
There is evidence in this thread that it works. Some just choose to believe what they want to believe. Look at the post on the top of the page. Spurfy has done bloodwork several times and torem kept his LH and FSH steady while ON cycle.
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he never posted the bloodwork, did he?

and the study cited was 4 days, using something crazy like 300 mg/day of clomid.

I could be wrong, but I only recall people posting variations of it and saying after they saw their bloodwork, realized that it did nothing to affect gonatropins...

Too many people get offended when asked for evidence here. Like it or not, you have no accountability for your advice here, and it can negatively affect someone else's health. Since I cannot prove something in person here, I demand proof otherwise. In this case, blood work or real data. Shouldnt be too much to ask, imo.....
 
Dandecoteau said:
Why doesn’t everyone just do this? If it was so effective it would be normal protocol
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Maybe because the results aren’t as good as running test on cycle? Taking 1000 mg of exogenous test per week (or whatever crazy dose you choose) will put your test levels through the roof. Running on cycle with clomid I’m guessing potentially that you’re really not gunna get any increase above normal and might be low normal. Plus the side effects/benefits of significant amounts of test seem to easily trump clomid. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just brainstorming. I think there would need to be a controlled study with periodic bloods to draw any definitive conclusions. For instance, the compounds you’re taking, what doses, dosing of clomid/torem, etc would potentially have a correlation to the natural hormone levels produced after
 
Interesting thread. I've almost posted a few times..... I'll contribute, but in a different way.


Here's a question, or some food for thought. Maybe something to ponder.....


Do you plan on cycling for the next 5, 10, 15, 30+ years? There are lot of young bucs on this forum. If you plan on cycling 2x per year, and also PCT'ing 2x per year. Are you then okay with being on a prescription drug (SERM) for possibly 6+ months out of the year for the next xx years? As we know, SERMs act differently in various tissues. A SERM can be an antagonist in one area of the body and an agonist elsewhere - so in essence, both non-proliferative and proliferative. These drugs may be considered to be mostly "benign" with limited use but choosing to self-prescribe a daily dose for extended periods of time, and over many years, may end up putting you in a "malignant" situation down the road. These drugs modulate/regulate various hormones throughout the body and the response to that change goes far beyond what science has measured. Is this risk, potentially taken over a period of many years, going to be worth it to you? It always goes back to the question - are you willing to observe ALL of the risks of cycling? It's a question that most of us answer with a quick "YES".

If the answer to the last question is yes, and you are one of those guys that chooses to cycle for many years, are you not planning on being on TRT/HRT down the road anyway? I can almost guarantee that a very LARGE percentage of the young (and heavy-use) cyclers on this board will end up on TRT, or self-administering TRT at some point in the near-future. Would it be worth it, in that case, to be dosing SERMs like candy in the hope that you will not shutdown what you are going to eventually shut-down anyway? Decisions....

I get that some members have reported feeling better on cycle with subsequent usage of both steroids and SERMs as part of their cycle. Anecdotal evidence is great if it applies to you, and works for you. I've had to use Tamoxifen a couple of times now for the duration of mild cycles. Both times when combining a SARM with a 5aR inhibitor. I can tell you that my testicle size did increase when starting the SERM midway during the mild cycle. While I did not get bloodwork to verify, I'm assuming that is a positive indicator of increased testicular function. To what degree, I have no idea. Assuming a singular cycle, this type of scenario (mild cycle and SERM usage) may possibly increase the likelihood of a smoother transition to PCT, possibly even helping to mitigate some suppression. Do I think that SERM usage on cycle, many cycles over and over, will prevent endocrine disruption down the road? No, I do not. I know how I feel after a number of years of continual cycling; And while my T levels are almost what they were when I started (successful PCTs), the body just doesn't feel the same way. Why is that? Cycling steroids is not simple. Hormone manipulation is not simple. Recovery can not be simplified into an equation where you simply recover your baseline T levels over and over and everything will just be alright. I highly doubt there is a situation where human beings will ever be able to outsmart mother-nature over the period of a lifetime. This is a topic that needs to be discussed in-depth.

Young people need to still assume, despite some positive anecdotes and small sample-size "evidence", that heavy steroid usage can and WILL end up in permanent TRT/HRT. Even moderate and light usage can sometimes have devastating effects on the endocrine system, and for various reasons. If SERM usage works for you on cycle and your are confident in your ability to monitor all of the subsequent health concerns that may arise from continual use, by all means, do what works for you. I write all of this to ensure that the young folks realize that permanent endocrine disruption is a REAL possibility no matter which way you choose to cycle and no matter which counter-measures you choose to deploy.

Cycling for many years will in some way damage your endocrine system, regardless or whether or not that damage can easily be measured; and regardless of which way you choose to cycle; I don't believe there is any getting around that; There's certainly no magic pill here. Hopefully people find the path that works best for them, and at the same time gives them the best opportunity to lead a healthy and happy life...................far beyond the anabolics.
 
RickyBlobby said:
The fact my T was in normal range after 10 weeks of dbol and primo kinda tells you it works. I did not check my LH though. If I weren't on TRT I would experiment again.
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I'm kinda confused.... it thought this was something you recently did?

if so, why are you on TRT now if your HPTA was recovered from that cycle?
 
rtmilburn said:
Ive read it. Thing is, I dont see evidence to prove this. Its a working theory backed with some evidence, that we have as of now, but is came about with making are own conclusions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as we have to do this. Reasong being is there is not going to be research to back MOST of what we say 100%. Best we can do is follow smart peoples advice (such as mike), but that doesnt mean that we shouldn't question it.

It could be very well be true, but to take this as fact just because mike said it, is well..... short sided.

Do not get me wrong i like Mike Arnold ALOT! He is a great dude and is VERY intelligent(way smarter than me no doubt). I also love how he runs his business and i love his products. So dont take anything im saying as a shot at mike.

Now im not saying im right persay, i very well could be wrong. But i provided the evidence of a wide range of cells that serm DO effect, assumably stonger than estrogen(this statement could very well be false too). With that i made MY conclusion, that there is a good chance that a serm (such as torem or nolva but not clomid) could very well bind to all receptors, in the human body, with a higher affinity than estrogen.

Either way torem is proven to bind strongly to prostate, breast, and assumably hypothalamic cells. While also providing better lipid panels and i think it even improved blood pressure (this could very well be wrong, as i genuinely cant remember. I look it up later). So it is providing protection the the thing we want to protect the most. So what would be the big deal if it doesnt bind to all the receptors better than estrogen?
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I don't think there's any logical reason to assume that the SERM binds to ALL of the ERs in the body.

if it did, nobody would ever get gyno that took a SERM on cycle..... and yet we still see that occur




.
 
CatSnake said:
I'm kinda confused.... it thought this was something you recently did?

if so, why are you on TRT now if your HPTA was recovered from that cycle?
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I cruised on 250mg test for over a year adding in other compounds from time to time to blast. Then I read about Arnold's cycle (primo + dbol) and was intrigued, so I decided to try it. About the same time is when I got curious about clomid on cycle so I decided to add clomid.

After that cycle I decided I did not want to go through a lengthy rehab process after being on anabolics for well over a year so I decided to get on TRT. From time to time I will throw in clomid for a few weeks to jump start my system in case I ever have to come off. And guess what, my balls grow back every time. Now tell me how that is possible if clomid doesn't release LH in the presence of anabolics?
 
This has been repeated many times. Supposedly serms act directly on the gonads. So your LH can stay zero but still have an effect on your balls.
 
Jinsun said:
This has been repeated many times. Supposedly serms act directly on the gonads. So your LH can stay zero but still have an effect on your balls.
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You may be right, but spurfy did bloods and his LH and FSH were in normal range. Unless he was lying, which seems unlikely, as he has nothing to gain from lying about this.
 
Jinsun said:
This has been repeated many times. Supposedly serms act directly on the gonads. So your LH can stay zero but still have an effect on your balls.
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yup.

"In certain tissues, such as testes and mammary glands, both the ERα and ERβ are expressed, but their cellular distribution is distinct. For example, in mammary glands, ERβ is mostly present in epithelial cell nuclei. In testis, ERα is reported to be localized in the nuclei of the Leydig cells, while ERβ is found in germ cells, Sertoli cells, and fetal Leydig cells."

Invalid Link Removed



.
 
CatSnake said:
I don't think there's any logical reason to assume that the SERM binds to ALL of the ERs in the body.

if it did, nobody would ever get gyno that took a SERM on cycle..... and yet we still see that occur




.
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Progesterone and prolactin can cause gyno.
 
RickyBlobby said:
No but I have seen mine. And I have common sense.
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you keep referencing his blood work as though it's somehow gospel.

snide comments about common sense aside, why do you believe him? do you actually know him? (not being sarcastic: serious question)
 
rtmilburn said:
Progesterone and prolactin can cause gyno.
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it's heavily debated that prolactin can cause gyno... lactation, yes. gyno, maybe.

I've never heard of progesterone actually causing gyno in this context.... maybe some progestin-based products, but that's not the same thing.


regardless, they still affect the ER, so if your theory was sound, then the SERM would still prevent their action.



.
 
CatSnake said:
it's heavily debated that prolactin can cause gyno... lactation, yes. gyno, maybe.

I've never heard of progesterone actually causing gyno in this context.... maybe some progestin-based products, but that's not the same thing.


regardless, they still affect the ER, so if your theory was sound, then the SERM would still prevent their action.



.
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btw I've never seen anyone/heard of anyone getting gyno while on any serm, Clomid exlcuded. heard of people getting when coming off a serm-- usually after taking high doses and/or WITH clomid-- but never during.
 
rtmilburn said:
btw I've never seen anyone/heard of anyone getting gyno while on any serm, Clomid exlcuded. heard of people getting when coming off a serm-- usually after taking high doses and/or WITH clomid-- but never during.
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I have. take a look around here and you'll see guys even report it on here...

it's rare, but can still happen. proper E2 management doesn't go out the window just because somebody takes a SERM...
 
CatSnake said:
I don't think there's any logical reason to assume that the SERM binds to ALL of the ERs in the body.

if it did, nobody would ever get gyno that took a SERM on cycle..... and yet we still see that occur




.
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The term SERM is like the term SARM...the S stand for selective.
And binding affinity is a big thing.
But some do target the pituitary and the breast tissue more than others.
 
CatSnake said:
you keep referencing his blood work as though it's somehow gospel.

snide comments about common sense aside, why do you believe him? do you actually know him? (not being sarcastic: serious question)
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Seriuous question, why do you keep negatively repping me? How fukking childish are you. Do you think it hurts my feelings? What a thin skinned little momma's boy you must be in real life.
 
Newth said:
The term SERM is like the term SARM...the S stand for selective.
And binding affinity is a big thing.
But some do target the pituitary and the breast tissue more than others.
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This, and perhaps the cycle was too strong for the SERM dose being used. If you use a saturation dose of torem or ralox, then theoretically gyno can't occur because SERMS have a higher affinity for the receptors, meaning no amount of estrogen can get to the receptor once saturated by a SERM.
 
RickyBlobby said:
This, and perhaps the cycle was too strong for the SERM dose being used. If you use a saturation dose of torem or ralox, then theoretically gyno can't occur because SERMS have a higher affinity for the receptors, meaning no amount of estrogen can get to the receptor once saturated by a SERM.
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AI is a huge thing if SERMs are not strong enough oncycle.
As for binding affinity of any particular SERM...I haven't looked into the binding affinities that much as I haven;t needed to, but if ME2 was present in cycle(or any really strong E) I would be thinking about it.

From what I have learnt over the years some SERMs have an Anti-E2 effect on the pituitary increasing LH production slowing shutdown oncycle.
Some are more healthy than others.
I haven't had time to learn about the different SERMs yet, I have an idea on nolva and clomid but some of the newer ones look really good.
For good advice. Listen to Spurfy, he reminds me of the past.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Seriuous question, why do you keep negatively repping me? How fukking childish are you. Do you think it hurts my feelings? What a thin skinned little momma's boy you must be in real life.
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lol.... and you somehow just proved a bunch of people's points.
 
CatSnake said:
lol.... and you somehow just proved a bunch of people's points.
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The only thing I proved is that I'm dealing with a little worm
 
RickyBlobby said:
This, and perhaps the cycle was too strong for the SERM dose being used. If you use a saturation dose of torem or ralox, then theoretically gyno can't occur because SERMS have a higher affinity for the receptors, meaning no amount of estrogen can get to the receptor once saturated by a SERM.
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Just wondering how a SERM precludes the body sensing an imbalance in androgens and/or progestins seeing as both androgen receptors and progesterone receptors are found in the hypothalamus?

Soo basically I should be able to take tren by itself and since my estrogen will go really low my lh and fsh will remain in range??
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Just wondering how a SERM precludes the body sensing an imbalance in androgens and/or progestins seeing as both androgen receptors and progesterone receptors are found in the hypothalamus?

Soo basically I should be able to take tren by itself and since my estrogen will go really low my lh and fsh will remain in range??
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At saturation dose, the SERM takes up all the receptor space and basically tricks the body into thinking there is insufficient androgen as the Serm blocks the androgen/ estrogen from entering the receptor.

Tren I don't know. It is a strong drug, I don't know if it can overpower the SERM at saturation dose (dose where the entire receptor is "blocked")
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Just wondering how a SERM precludes the body sensing an imbalance in androgens and/or progestins seeing as both androgen receptors and progesterone receptors are found in the hypothalamus?

Soo basically I should be able to take tren by itself and since my estrogen will go really low my lh and fsh will remain in range??
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You guys are pushing this to much. Look what's going to happen, people are going to runn tren solo expecting to not be shutdown...

Take it easy, it's all I'm saying. Besides, all has been said a 100x times already in this thread so please stop bumping it with nonsense. We need blood results. Can't believe I'm the only one that tested this theory! C'mon people.
 
Jinsun said:
You guys are pushing this to much. Look what's going to happen, people are going to runn tren solo expecting to not be shutdown...

Take it easy, it's all I'm saying. Besides, all has been said a 100x times already in this thread so please stop bumping it with nonsense. We need blood results. Can't believe I'm the only one that tested this theory! C'mon people.
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You run the forums now? Sorry I don’t have the time to read through all the pages. My tren comment was rhetorical and judging by his answer, i dont think anyone should really listen to anything he writes with any credibility..
 
NoAddedHmones I assume that was directed at me. All I said was that tren is a very strong drug and I basically don't know if there is enough SERM available on the planet to counteract suppression from tren. How does that response count as giving bad information?
Jinsun, you were not the only one to test this theory bro
 
Someone needs to do like I did, run a cycle (not testosterone) alongside a SERM and then test LH, FSH and total T. I know jinsun's LH was way low, what I don't know is if SERMs act directly on the testes. All I know is that clomid kept me from getting suppressed as evidenced by T in the normal range and nuts that stayed pretty much normal during a moderate cycle. I did not check LH unfortunately. Spurfy claims he did and his LH and FSH were normal and I don't see why he would make that up.
 
I have before cycle bloods for LH FSH & Total T (actually posted them already in here), and I am 1 month into it taking 30mg Torem/day. At very end of cycle I will draw new bloods and post both the original and new side by side.

This is the dose Spurfy uses for his ultra mild blasts of 300mg test e/c and 30mg Var. My cycle is quite mild but still a touch stronger.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Someone needs to do like I did, run a cycle (not testosterone) alongside a SERM and then test LH, FSH and total T. I know jinsun's LH was way low, what I don't know is if SERMs act directly on the testes. All I know is that clomid kept me from getting suppressed as evidenced by T in the normal range and nuts that stayed pretty much normal during a moderate cycle. I did not check LH unfortunately. Spurfy claims he did and his LH and FSH were normal and I don't see why he would make that up.
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I volunteer as tribute in the coming months. Well my eventual plan as I think you know when available is to run low dose var with pharmagrade clomid and then get bloods done. I already have the blood work orders written out. I know this probably isn’t exactly what you mean as it’s not the same as running high dose Tren and SERM but it might at least give a little insight? Maybe not, just trying to assist as at this point I think SOME of the comments in this thread are just theoretical
 
Wildcat528 said:
I volunteer as tribute in the coming months. Well my eventual plan as I think you know when available is to run low dose var with pharmagrade clomid and then get bloods done. I already have the blood work orders written out. I know this probably isn’t exactly what you mean as it’s not the same as running high dose Tren and SERM but it might at least give a little insight? Maybe not, just trying to assist as at this point I think SOME of the comments in this thread are just theoretical
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Well for experiments sake it would be more beneficial to first run var alone, do bloods, then add a serm, do bloods.
 
Jinsun said:
Well for experiments sake it would be more beneficial to first run var alone, do bloods, then add a serm, do bloods.
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I have 2 blood work orders. I’m doing bloods before it so I’ll have a baseline. Then I’ll run var and clomid. Then I’ll get bloods done after. That should tell us what we need to know. And also I’m doing this in an attempt to not get shut down so var alone is out of the question. But if my pre and post bloods don’t change then we will have our answer, at least for this experiment. If my post bloods are significantly lower than my pre then we will know the var “won”. If my bloods are the same or higher then we can theoretically claim the clomid negated the suppression/shutdown of the var no?
 
Wildcat528 said:
I have 2 blood work orders. I’m doing bloods before it so I’ll have a baseline. Then I’ll run var and clomid. Then I’ll get bloods done after. That should tell us what we need to know. And also I’m doing this in an attempt to not get shut down so var alone is out of the question. But if my pre and post bloods don’t change then we will have our answer, at least for this experiment. If my post bloods are significantly lower than my pre then we will know the var “won”. If my bloods are the same or higher then we can theoretically claim the clomid negated the suppression/shutdown of the var no?
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Thanks for taking the initiative for testing this out. There are some that say var isn't suppressive, and may call BS that it was the torem keeping your HTPA up and running. Others may say the var could be bunk. You can't please everybody lol.


My opinion is a moderate dose of var will likely suppress you to an extent (25mg +). I mean look at other "mild" compounds lke epi, halo etc. They are suppressive too, no? So there is no reason to believe that 25-50mg of anavar isn't. Jinsun's way would be ideal, but who has the time and money for all that bloodwork.

How much var you plan on running?
 
RickyBlobby said:
Thanks for taking the initiative for testing this out. There are some that say var isn't suppressive, and may call BS that it was the torem keeping your HTPA up and running. Others may say the var could be bunk. You can't please everybody lol.


My opinion is a moderate dose of var will likely suppress you to an extent (25mg +). I mean look at other "mild" compounds lke epi, halo etc. They are suppressive too, no? So there is no reason to believe that 25-50mg of anavar isn't. Jinsun's way would be ideal, but who has the time and money for all that bloodwork.

How much var you plan on running?
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I’m currently planning on running 20-30 mg/day of var. I’ll probably start with 20 for the first 4 weeks or so and then bump to 30 assuming all is well. If I can find 25mg tablets/capsules though then I’ll just do that throughout. Maybe bump to 50 at the very end but might just stick to 25mg for 8-10 weeks. Thoughts? My main goal is just to get a slight boost without full shutdown or anything of that nature. Slight suppression is okay I assume as I can continue with the clomid after to get me back up to level. At least that’s the goal anyway!
 
Wildcat528 said:
I’m currently planning on running 20-30 mg/day of var. I’ll probably start with 20 for the first 4 weeks or so and then bump to 30 assuming all is well. If I can find 25mg tablets/capsules though then I’ll just do that throughout. Maybe bump to 50 at the very end but might just stick to 25mg for 8-10 weeks. Thoughts? My main goal is just to get a slight boost without full shutdown or anything of that nature. Slight suppression is okay I assume as I can continue with the clomid after to get me back up to level. At least that’s the goal anyway!
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I think as long as you do before bloods, and bloods towards the end of the cycle, it should give us good info. Because that much var has to be suppressive to an extent. Its just kinda hard to say to what extent you will be suppressed without the bloodwork on only var. But if your LH, FSH and T are in range, or better yet above baseline that would be a win I think.
 
RickyBlobby said:
I think as long as you do before bloods, and bloods towards the end of the cycle, it should give us good info. Because that much var has to be suppressive to an extent. Its just kinda hard to say to what extent you will be suppressed without the bloodwork on only var. But if your LH, FSH and T are in range, or better yet above baseline that would be a win I think.
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My thoughts exactly, we can then theorize that it is in fact possible to run a suppressive compound at a low dose along with clomid and maintain a normal natural hormone range. And if my hormone levels plummet we will know that the clomid did nothing to combat the var’s suppression. As I mentioned though, I am coming up empty on a reliable source of the var that accepts payment of something besides western union and crypto currencies so it may be a little while until I run it.
 
Tbh 25mg var could be run withouth a serm. A serm will most probably not only negate var but also give you higher T levels then before. That's why I said run without a serm and then add a serm. Doing it your way will prove it works but we wont see the whole picture. You might not even need a serm for 25mg var. Wouldn't that be a nice thing to find out?

Doing it your way I would go 50mg var + serm. This will more definitely prove a serm helps.
 
Wildcat528 said:
My thoughts exactly, we can then theorize that it is in fact possible to run a suppressive compound at a low dose along with clomid and maintain a normal natural hormone range. And if my hormone levels plummet we will know that the clomid did nothing to combat the var’s suppression. As I mentioned though, I am coming up empty on a reliable source of the var that accepts payment of something besides western union and crypto currencies so it may be a little while until I run it.
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What's wrong with western union? Better than using a CC in my opinion..
 
Jinsun said:
Tbh 25mg var could be run withouth a serm. A serm will most probably not only negate var but also give you higher T levels then before. That's why I said run without a serm and then add a serm. Doing it your way will prove it works but we wont see the whole picture. You might not even need a serm for 25mg var. Wouldn't that be a nice thing to find out?

Doing it your way I would go 50mg var + serm. This will more definitely prove a serm helps.
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How would a SERM negate var? And I agree 50mg of var would be better for research sake. If 50mg var is too high you could go with 50mg of tbol and achieve the same results (in essence) for half the price.
 
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