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Clomid during cycle

RickyBlobby said:
Somebody has been taking their smart pills
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Talking to me?

If so ive been playing with some noots, but moreso i have more free time now that the semester is over. Which mean more research time. Lastly phenubit may not be a nootropic persay, but i love this sh!t. Also i think it works better than any other noot, when used right.
 
rtmilburn said:
Talking to me?

If so ive been playing with some noots, but moreso i have more free time now that the semester is over. Which mean more research time. Lastly phenubit may not be a nootropic persay, but i love this sh!t. Also i think it works better than any other noot, when used right.
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what are you studying
 
Double post
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Clomid works wonder with that. But some individuals really struggle with emotional sides. Others need to regulate estrogen with an AI and SERM.

Others need str8 HCG because the SERM route was too rough. A lot of factors. Glad you got a doctor to help, and I hope it was a good experience. With doctors it can be hit or miss depending how comfortable they are with that.
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I’m lucky to have an understanding and helpful Dr and I really like Clomid, I do 1-2 Clomid cycles a year, feel great on it. Thanks
 
heckler7 said:
that was one of the first things I said, if your going to use it long term it should be under doctor supervision. I have used clomid alot for pct but now I blast and cruise
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You said you have to stay on for 9-12 month for it work for sperm production.

I got my wife pregnant within 2 month of Clomid use from having “too low to measure” sperm count.

Blood test is showing that Clomid is NOT harsh on my body either. Clomid is used for HRT you know...
 
BBiceps said:
You said you have to stay on for 9-12 month for it work for sperm production.

I got my wife pregnant within 2 month of Clomid use from having “too low to measure” sperm count.

Blood test is showing that Clomid is NOT harsh on my body either. Clomid is used for HRT you know...
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Clomid isn't necessarily toxic but it can be. It is very individualistic.
 
BBiceps said:
You said you have to stay on for 9-12 month for it work for sperm production.

I got my wife pregnant within 2 month of Clomid use from having “too low to measure” sperm count.

Blood test is showing that Clomid is NOT harsh on my body either. Clomid is used for HRT you know...
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apples and oranges, you were using it so stimulate HTPA axis, we were debating it as a serm, thats where we disagree
I didnt say that I quoted it from another site, I just didnt name it didnt want to break forum rules. but I will say every doctor is different thats why you see so many posts of folks saying see a different
 
rtmilburn said:
Ill explain when i can, as im a work and dont they time atm. But to start i can almost guarantee whatever you buy is HCG is fake I'll explain more when I can
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Can almost guarantee thats complete bs. Actually run a proper cycle...and incorporate hcg and see the night and day difference it makes before posting about it...
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Can almost guarantee thats complete bs. Actually run a proper cycle...and incorporate hcg and see the night and day difference it makes before posting about it...
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Running a real cycle right now. No hcg though. I can say when i was working as a pharmacy technician, at a compounding pharmacy, we had a hard sourcing hcg that had any potency by the time we got it. It was real but lost a significant amount of potency by the time we got it, so we could use it. As if anything is below 10% or above 10% potency it cannot be sold. We eventually found one that would work but it took forever.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Can almost guarantee thats complete bs. Actually run a proper cycle...and incorporate hcg and see the night and day difference it makes before posting about it...
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Also incase your wondering. My cycle is 450mg test c for 12 weeks, and i may go longer. im at week 4 (i think not 100% sure its week 4, but pretty sure).

No ai, but have adex on hand.

No serm on cycle(will use torem pct but also have clomid), reason is i want to test a normal cycle before i test out my theory.

I have ralox on hand for if gyno symptoms occur.

Thinking adding mt2 but haven't decided yet.

Also have some natty supps too.
 
rtmilburn said:
Running a real cycle right now. No hcg though. I can say when i was working as a pharmacy technician, at a compounding pharmacy, we had a hard sourcing hcg that had any potency by the time we got it. It was real but lost a significant amount of potency by the time we got it, so we could use it. As if anything is below 10% or above 10% potency it cannot be sold. We eventually found one that would work but it took forever.
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Interesting insight. I thought you were against it bc it was faked not "dud". But tbh everybody buys hcg and it helps with their junk. I think ppl would notice if it didn't, don't you think?
 
Jinsun said:
Interesting insight. I thought you were against it bc it was faked not "dud". But tbh everybody buys hcg and it helps with their junk. I think ppl would notice if it didn't, don't you think?
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Possibly even at low potency, it's stong enough to give an effect? Or maybe placebo effect? Idk.
 
rtmilburn said:
Running a real cycle right now. No hcg though. I can say when i was working as a pharmacy technician, at a compounding pharmacy, we had a hard sourcing hcg that had any potency by the time we got it. It was real but lost a significant amount of potency by the time we got it, so we could use it. As if anything is below 10% or above 10% potency it cannot be sold. We eventually found one that would work but it took forever.
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You are talking about unconstituted hcg? Pharma hcg is routinely precribed around the world.. its all super low potency?
 
NoAddedHmones said:
You are talking about unconstituted hcg? Pharma hcg is routinely precribed around the world.. its all super low potency?
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Perhaps. It could also be just what we had access too. As we were over 500 miles away from are suppliers thus giving it time for it to degrade. Also yes it was unconstituted.

However, this was with proper shipping in refrigerated trucks.

So if you think you supplier is closer than that you may be getting legit sh!t. Idk, i just doubt it
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Well you need to put that statement into context, it certainly isn’t “suppressive” when you have exogenous androgens in your system and maintaining testicular size and function will be very beneficial for restoring endogenous homoestatsis..
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True. I said I'll explain more when I have time. I'm currently at work. I don't have time to go into detail
 
2kvette said:
You rang? What you want me to explain. Ill go into as much detail as I can.
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How 19nors arent reduced to estrogen by aromatase. Also how hcg CAN be counterintuitive for restarting the hpta. But moreso the 19nors thing as dont know that very well.
 
HCG does not restart the HPTA
 
BBiceps said:
I heard some say HCG could be suppressive, idk but it’s good for fertility though.
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it will keep LH shutdown so yes, thats why you shouldnt use it for PCT, my doc sells it in his office and had me on 300iu daily but it gave me headaches, he didnt believe me that I was getting headaches but I never get migraines and 3 times i tried to use hcg and I was getting mad headaches
 
It improves fertility via acting at the testicular level and not the hypothalamus.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Not sure anyone in here suggested it did..
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read his last post...." Also how hcg CAN be counterintuitive for restarting the hpta" this implies that at one point HCG was being considered as a means to restart the HPTA.
 
heckler7 said:
it will keep LH shutdown so yes, thats why you shouldnt use it for PCT, my doc sells it in his office and had me on 300iu daily but it gave me headaches, he didnt believe me that I was getting headaches but I never get migraines and 3 times i tried to use hcg and I was getting mad headaches
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That is interesting. Ive never heard that.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Well you need to put that statement into context, it certainly isn’t “suppressive” when you have exogenous androgens in your system and maintaining testicular size and function will be very beneficial for restoring endogenous homoestatsis..
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Exactly. If your testicles never shutdown, once the hypothalamus pumps out its own gonadatropins, transition from a cycle is a lot smoother.

I think RT's comment was that HCG does more damage then good.....which sparked this current conversation. He then asked kvette how it could be counterintuitive to restarting the HPTA.
 
Aromatase does not convert 19-nor androgens into estrogens. It is impossible. They lack the 19-methyl to generate the key intermediate needed.

"Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver. However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes."

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Blocking aromatase with 19-nors will be useless. It is not the enzyme that does this to 19-nors. Keto-enol tautomerization happens, and enzymes other than aromatase introduce double bonds into the A-ring. A serm is needed, not an AI.
 
2kvette said:
Aromatase does not convert 19-nor androgens into estrogens. It is impossible. They lack the 19-methyl to generate the key intermediate needed.

"Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver. However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes."

Blocking aromatase with 19-nors will be useless. It is not the enzyme that does this to 19-nors. Keto-enol tautomerization happens, and enzymes other than aromatase introduce double bonds into the A-ring. A serm is needed, not an AI.
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source? interesting, I want to continue reading

Was unaware of that 19nors went down a different pathway.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
read his last post...." Also how hcg CAN be counterintuitive for restarting the hpta" this implies that at one point HCG was being considered as a means to restart the HPTA.
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GoHardOrGoHme said:
Exactly. If your testicles never shutdown, once the hypothalamus pumps out its own gonadatropins, transition from a cycle is a lot smoother.


I think RT's comment was that HCG does more damage then good.....which sparked this current conversation. He then asked kvette how it could be counterintuitive to restarting the HPTA.
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Ah fair call, missed that post, tough on mobile app. Well we appear to be on the same page.
 
Anyone who knows anything about drug metabolism knows that the enols then undergo O-demethylation to give free hydroxy's. Which complete the formation of active estrogens.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Well you need to put that statement into context, it certainly isn’t “suppressive” when you have exogenous androgens in your system and maintaining testicular size and function will be very beneficial for restoring endogenous homoestatsis..
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hcg is sending a signal to your leydig cells in you balls to keep working, its bypassing the LH so your not in homeostasis, just off the top of me head so sorry if its not articulated well. IMO taking HCG during a cycle only provides you with an aesthetic of having full looking balls, only a proper pct will stimulate the LH to send a signal to the leydig cells in your balls. with that said you may feel like your PCT was more successful because you skipped that testicular atrophy. but in reality its your labs that will show how well you recovered
 
heckler7 said:
hcg is sending a signal to your leydig cells in you balls to keep working, its bypassing the LH so your not in homeostasis, just off the top of me head so sorry if its not articulated well. IMO taking HCG during a cycle only provides you with an aesthetic of having full looking balls, only a proper pct will stimulate the LH to send a signal to the leydig cells in your balls. with that said you may feel like your PCT was more successful because you skipped that testicular atrophy. but in reality its your labs that will show how well you recovered
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lol you wut m8?
 
2kvette said:
Aromatase does not convert 19-nor androgens into estrogens. It is impossible. They lack the 19-methyl to generate the key intermediate needed.

"Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver. However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes."

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Blocking aromatase with 19-nors will be useless. It is not the enzyme that does this to 19-nors. Keto-enol tautomerization happens, and enzymes other than aromatase introduce double bonds into the A-ring. A serm is needed, not an AI.
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See i could not have explained it like this. Im glad you helped out. This is much clearer than my attempts to do so.
 
2kvette said:
Anyone who knows anything about drug metabolism knows that the enols then undergo O-demethylation to give free hydroxy's. Which complete the formation of active estrogens.
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so....you do realize that what you posted did not state that cytochrome p450 is not able to aromatize...it stated that its not necessary to do so

Furthermore you by no means verified that 19nors are NOT aromatized. That article stated that THEY DO AROMATIZE(and the population there was women) and they can do so via more then one mechanism.

Lastly human placental estrogen synthetase has shown the ability to aromatize both test and 19nors equally effective.

Anyone who can read can see that what you posted as a source doesnt support that trest doesnt aromatize. It talks about why it does so quickly, they were discussing for the mechanism by which it does this.

Edit: and estrogen synthetase is a kind of cytochrome p450
 
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So the point here is that because there is a secondary mechanism to aromatize 19nors like norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone, using an AI will not prevent aromatization in postmenopausal women.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
so....you do realize that what you posted did not state that cytochrome p450 is not able to aromatize...it stated that its not necessary to do so

Furthermore you by no means verified that 19nors are NOT aromatized. That article stated that THEY DO AROMATIZE(and the population there was women) and they can do so via more then one mechanism.

Lastly human placental estrogen synthetase has shown the ability to aromatize both test and 19nors equally effective.

Anyone who can read can see that what you posted as a source doesnt support that trest doesnt aromatize. It talks about why it does so quickly, they were discussing for the mechanism by which it does this.

Edit: and estrogen synthetase is a kind of cytochrome p450
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Ugh. Im sorry i dont have to patients to explain why your wrong.
 
rtmilburn said:
Ugh. Im sorry i dont have to patients to explain why your wrong.
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How about you treat people with a modicum of decency.

The article posted talks about the rapid aromatization via the mentioned enolization. Furthermore the conclusion drawn from said article was that AI's are useless with trestolone because its an 19nor.

Here are few things:
1) The question explored in said article is whether its possible for 19nors to aromatize in the liver
2) The population discussed where postmenopausal women.
3) A mechanism was put forth that explains the aromatization that takes place in the liver (which matters with oral steroids due to first pass metabolism)
4) This does not answer the question whether MENT can be aromatized via other mechanisms in that an AI may be able to regulate.

Kvette verified his point posted an article with the mechanism but the population, purpose, question, and conclusion of the article does not appropriately address the question at hand. So kudos for knowing the mechanism which verifies your point, however what I was curious about whether or not an AI will prevent its aromatization.

What answers this question? Well the following article reveals more information that will better answer the question.

Dimethandrolone (7α,11β-dimethyl-19-nortestosterone) and 11β-methyl-19-nortestosterone are not converted to aromatic A-ring products in the presence of recombinant human aromatase
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In short, MENT did not aromatize in the presence of human aromatase.

So RT, you made a good point in saying AI's wont help with MENT. Kvette you know drug metabolism.
 
And this isn’t to say that an AI might not help control gyno overall on a 19-nor after all.

Consider someone taking 500 test with 500 NPP...yes the AI will not prevent the NPP’s conversion to estrogen, but the effects handling the aromatization of test are certainly still of value here in the overall hormonal balance. I personally would definitely be on both a SERM & an AI in this cycle scenario.
 
And to verify my other two points which Im not sure you think were wrong, or didnt understand why i put them there



1) Estrogen synthetase (aromatase) is a cytochrome P-450 enzyme system which converts androgens to estrogens.
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- which was stated because the article kvette posted states "Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes"...which in the article stated is not necessary, but I was wanted to know is it possible, and does an AI affect this. Both of which where not addressed.

2) Aromatization of 7α-Methyl-19-nortestosterone by human placental microsomes in vitro
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-which lead me to question hey if there a way to aromatize via human placental aromatase in vitro...is this possible with the estorgen synthetase in other conditions.
 
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