Best PH of all Time

[Hyde]

I always thought that with most orals, running it longer than the usual 4 to 6 weeks only brings on more side effects being noticeable and no real increase in gains compared to a shorter cycle...correct?

False. Compound and response-specific. Trenavar, the ph to trenbolone, just kept getting better. Something like Msten, your organs aren’t going to have that for 8 weeks happily.

 

[Chados]

I always thought that with most orals, running it longer than the usual 4 to 6 weeks only brings on more side effects being noticeable and no real increase in gains compared to a shorter cycle...correct?

Sort off yes. I mean going off the won't be as effective as being on but the gains will slow down extremly much. Going off and going back on will always give the most drastic gains.

 

[Kratom267]

Sort off yes. I mean going off the won't be as effective as being on but the gains will slow down extremly much. Going off and going back on will always give the most drastic gains.

Yeah. Guess im thinking more along the lines of PH/designer's...like Hdrol/DMZ/Msten, etc...most people seem to say anything over 5 weeks doesn't yield increased gains and they plateau after week 4-5

 

[Chados]

Yeah. Guess im thinking more along the lines of PH/designer's...like Hdrol/DMZ/Msten, etc...most people seem to say anything over 5 weeks doesn't yield increased gains and they plateau after week 4-5

That's with all orals. They are fast gainers but short lived compared to injectibles where you almost have to go 8 weeks at the least to get to the peak of the compound. Even injectibles will slow down a lot though. Example test E will start at week 3 and peak at maybe week 6-9 for me. After that you'll see much slower gains. Your body just can't grow as rapidly every day, else everyone would look like Arnold.

 

[Bintherduntht]

That's with all orals. They are fast gainers but short lived compared to injectibles where you almost have to go 8 weeks at the least to get to the peak of the compound. Even injectibles will slow down a lot though. Example test E will start at week 3 and peak at maybe week 6-9 for me. After that you'll see much slower gains. Your body just can't grow as rapidly every day, else everyone would look like Arnold.

That's why my mentor says keep switching compounds, besides test

 

[Hyde]

Your body just can't grow as rapidly every day, else everyone would look like Arnold.

That’s a great way to phrase that, honestly - the body will only want to do anything for so long before it either adapts or pushes back too hard.

I’ve heard it posited that around 8 weeks of full blood levels on a compound at a given dosage is really all most can get growth out of - after a couple months the body basically has adapted to that protocol as it’s current anabolic “set point”. You have to take into account time for esters to build obviously, so we’ll use a short ester as an example:

Say you take 100mg/day of just test prop. After about 8 weeks, you really shouldn’t expect any further effect from the drugs action alone - time to up the dose, add or rotate compounds, or PCT/cruise to give some time for receptors to re-sensitize.

Obviously if you stopped eating or started eating twice as much you would still see weight changes, but I’m just looking at anabolic-induced muscle growth.

 

[Chados]

That’s a great way to phrase that, honestly - the body will only want to do anything for so long before it either adapts or pushes back too hard.

I’ve heard it posited that around 8 weeks of full blood levels on a compound at a given dosage is really all most can get growth out of - after a couple months the body basically has adapted to that protocol as it’s current anabolic “set point”. You have to take into account time for esters to build obviously, so we’ll use a short ester as an example:

Say you take 100mg/day of just test prop. After about 8 weeks, you really shouldn’t expect any further effect from the drugs action alone - time to up the dose, add or rotate compounds, or PCT/cruise to give some time for receptors to re-sensitize.

Obviously if you stopped eating or started eating twice as much you would still see weight changes, but I’m just looking at anabolic-induced muscle growth.

Exactly , muscle growth and weight is not the same.

 

[RickyBlobby]

That's with all orals. They are fast gainers but short lived compared to injectibles where you almost have to go 8 weeks at the least to get to the peak of the compound. Even injectibles will slow down a lot though. Example test E will start at week 3 and peak at maybe week 6-9 for me. After that you'll see much slower gains. Your body just can't grow as rapidly every day, else everyone would look like Arnold.

By what mechanism do gains decline when you have a steady amount of anabolics in your system? Is it myostatin?

And according to your theory, if you did a 12 week dbol cycle... around week 8 your gains would stop, basically? Or just begin to decline.

I mean, if you can put on 10lbs the first 8 weeks and another 2 the last 4 weeks, do you think it would still be worth running 12 weeks?

Just picking your brain

 

[Chados]

By what mechanism do gains decline when you have a steady amount of anabolics in your system? Is it myostatin?

That is probably a big part

 

[RickyBlobby]

That is probably a big part

So in theory epicatechin would be advised for longer cycles. For say the last 4 weeks of an 8 week cycle..

 

[Bintherduntht]

That’s a great way to phrase that, honestly - the body will only want to do anything for so long before it either adapts or pushes back too hard.

I’ve heard it posited that around 8 weeks of full blood levels on a compound at a given dosage is really all most can get growth out of - after a couple months the body basically has adapted to that protocol as it’s current anabolic “set point”. You have to take into account time for esters to build obviously, so we’ll use a short ester as an example:

Say you take 100mg/day of just test prop. After about 8 weeks, you really shouldn’t expect any further effect from the drugs action alone - time to up the dose, add or rotate compounds, or PCT/cruise to give some time for receptors to re-sensitize.

Obviously if you stopped eating or started eating twice as much you would still see weight changes, but I’m just looking at anabolic-induced muscle growth.

I don't completely agree on testosterone being desensitized or your receptors needing a break. It's not like a drug, it's a hormone. I don't have the data on this,

But if a man blasts Testosterone E at 500mg, even after 8 weeks he should still be gaining. I've done it before.

The test may peak at a certain point, but I don't believe the gains would stop until you reached your maximum potential.

Then you will need HGH to stimulate new muscle tissue.

As for the other AAS "drugs", yes the probably drain certain receptors

 

[Bintherduntht]

That’s a great way to phrase that, honestly - the body will only want to do anything for so long before it either adapts or pushes back too hard.

I’ve heard it posited that around 8 weeks of full blood levels on a compound at a given dosage is really all most can get growth out of - after a couple months the body basically has adapted to that protocol as it’s current anabolic “set point”. You have to take into account time for esters to build obviously, so we’ll use a short ester as an example:

Say you take 100mg/day of just test prop. After about 8 weeks, you really shouldn’t expect any further effect from the drugs action alone - time to up the dose, add or rotate compounds, or PCT/cruise to give some time for receptors to re-sensitize.

Obviously if you stopped eating or started eating twice as much you would still see weight changes, but I’m just looking at anabolic-induced muscle growth.

I do agree with everything else, that's why he recommended switching compounds at the 8 week mark.

Your always growing that way

 

[RickyBlobby]

Actually, I remember looking at some graphs the east germans made when they were doping their Olympic athletes with Tbol. The chart showed daily dosage and level of performance on that date.

If I remember right they ran 10 week cycles and the chart showed steady progress the whle 10 weeks. So I have to disagree that compounds stop working after only a few weeks.

The east germans meticulously kept records on the performance of their athletes, and the cycle length for Tbol that they settled on was 10 weeks I believe. Let me look for the study..

 

[Chados]

It's not that they stop working. You can't compare it to natural growth. The fact is that a compound might kick in and by that I mean for you to see in the mirror a noticible change at week 2 with say tbol. At week 3-6 you're gonna grow with the peak (most noticible gains at week 4). After week 6 and you've put on 15 lbs with 8 being lean muscle your body will slow down heavily. You'll see more change in the weeks 2-4 than 6-10 if you push it that far. This doesn't mean it's useless. It's not useless cruising on test for a year but that's because you're above natural limits. If you jump on and off or switch compounds the growth will be much more drastic during a shorter time.

 

[rtmilburn]

So in theory epicatechin would be advised for longer cycles. For say the last 4 weeks of an 8 week cycle..

You would need something way stonger, to midigate the myostatin increase from longer anabolic cycles.

 

[rtmilburn]

I don't completely agree on testosterone being desensitized or your receptors needing a break. It's not like a drug, it's a hormone. I don't have the data on this,

But if a man blasts Testosterone E at 500mg, even after 8 weeks he should still be gaining. I've done it before.

The test may peak at a certain point, but I don't believe the gains would stop until you reached your maximum potential.

Then you will need HGH to stimulate new muscle tissue.

As for the other AAS "drugs", yes the probably drain certain receptors

It has more to do with myostatin increase than anything else.

 

[Hyde]

So in theory epicatechin would be advised for longer cycles. For say the last 4 weeks of an 8 week cycle..

But we don’t know myostatin is the reason at all, so we can’t just make a giant assumption.

I don't completely agree on testosterone being desensitized or your receptors needing a break. It's not like a drug, it's a hormone. I don't have the data on this,

But if a man blasts Testosterone E at 500mg, even after 8 weeks he should still be gaining. I've done it before.

The test may peak at a certain point, but I don't believe the gains would stop until you reached your maximum potential.

Then you will need HGH to stimulate new muscle tissue.

As for the other AAS "drugs", yes the probably drain certain receptors

In your example you need weeks for the Enanthate ester to build to peak blood levels - of course you’d still be growing. That’s why I said Propionate in mine, and why most guys run E for at least 10 weeks.

Actually, I remember looking at some graphs the east germans made when they were doping their Olympic athletes with Tbol. The chart showed daily dosage and level of performance on that date.

If I remember right they ran 10 week cycles and the chart showed steady progress the whle 10 weeks. So I have to disagree that compounds stop working after only a few weeks.

The east germans meticulously kept records on the performance of their athletes, and the cycle length for Tbol that they settled on was 10 weeks I believe. Let me look for the study..

You’re completely entangling neuromuscular performance increases with anabolic-induced hypertrophy (completely disregarding strength adaptation to training even). We weren’t talking strength at all. The drugs would still be ramping the nervous system.

Most comp drug cycles in powerlifting encompass multiple months and blocks, often spanning 12-20 weeks after all.

 

[RickyBlobby]

But we don’t know myostatin is the reason at all, so we can’t just make a giant assumption.

I understand we cant make that assumption. But may be worth doing some trial and error

In your example you need weeks for the Enanthate ester to build to peak blood levels - of course you’d still be growing. That’s why I said Propionate in mine, and why most guys run E for at least 10 weeks.



You’re completely entangling neuromuscular performance increases with anabolic-induced hypertrophy (completely disregarding strength adaptation to training even). We weren’t talking strength at all. The drugs would still be ramping the nervous system.

Most comp drug cycles in powerlifting encompass multiple months and blocks, often spanning 12-20 weeks after all.

...

 

[Hyde]

It’s certainly a question worth asking. I just meant let’s not be too hasty

 

[Chados]

Well bottom line is that you won't grow as much every day else everyone would be monsters. Your body will say when enough is enough and I think most people are that for themselves while on cycle. Extending test E above 12 weeks has never been doing it for me, winstrol doesn't blow my mind if I add 2 extra weeks and go 6 instead of 4.

 

[RickyBlobby]

What about slow builders like EQ. Its ran for 16-20 weeks. What makes its effects different than an oral... I realize it takes longer to kick I but after its kicked in people still run it 12-16 weeks in some cases.

 

[Chados]

What about slow builders like EQ. Its ran for 16-20 weeks. What makes its effects different than an oral... I realize it takes longer to kick I but after its kicked in people still run it 12-16 weeks in some cases.

You just said it.. It's a long ester and gains come later. I personally think test E is fine at 10 weeks while people argue 12 cause it takes two to kick in. Test E you'll start seeing gains at week 3-4, with eq you won't

 

[Hyde]

Also consider you CAN run something for a long time - people do all the time - it’s just that same dose same compounds stops delivering after so long without a break is really all the takeaway here is.

 

[Chados]

Also consider you CAN run something for a long time - people do all the time - it’s just that same dose same compounds stops delivering after so long without a break is really all the takeaway here is.

Yes but even implementing certain compounds doesn't work well. I think cutters work like winstrol cause they drain water out of you but as far as muscle gains it will slow down no matter what compound.

 

[Hyde]

Yes but even implementing certain compounds doesn't work well. I think cutters work like winstrol cause they drain water out of you but as far as muscle gains it will slow down no matter what compound.

I agree. The body adapts, like all things.

 

[Bintherduntht]

But we don’t know myostatin is the reason at all, so we can’t just make a giant assumption.



In your example you need weeks for the Enanthate ester to build to peak blood levels - of course you’d still be growing. That’s why I said Propionate in mine, and why most guys run E for at least 10 weeks.



You’re completely entangling neuromuscular performance increases with anabolic-induced hypertrophy (completely disregarding strength adaptation to training even). We weren’t talking strength at all. The drugs would still be ramping the nervous system.

Most comp drug cycles in powerlifting encompass multiple months and blocks, often spanning 12-20 weeks after all.

Ok, even if you ran test prop for 8+ weeks you will always gain.

That would be a lot of pinning tho

 

[Bintherduntht]

Did you guys fukkin forget about PROS???

They keep gaining, because they keep switching compounds, like I stated.

But the test remains the same.

If you are constantly on, you will constantly gain. Period.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Well bottom line is that you won't grow as much every day else everyone would be monsters. Your body will say when enough is enough and I think most people are that for themselves while on cycle. Extending test E above 12 weeks has never been doing it for me, winstrol doesn't blow my mind if I add 2 extra weeks and go 6 instead of 4.

Your body will say enough is enough when you have reached your genetic limit.

If you are always on test, above trt, you will always gain. Period.

 

[Bintherduntht]

It has more to do with myostatin increase than anything else.

Which is what? What is myostatin, and what role does play in anabolics?

I'm here to learn as well

 

[Bintherduntht]

The whole "kick in" thing I also don't understand.

After I pin test E, C or Sustanon, I can feel the effects within 12 hours. I will start gaining week 1.

Maybe my body metabolizes test better?

If I pin sust day one, by day 7 I will already be retaining water, horny etc

 

[Chados]

Your body will say enough is enough when you have reached your genetic limit.

If you are always on test, above trt, you will always gain. Period.

Yeah but that's like being a natural on steroids which it basically is. But what I mean saying that is that a person with or without test will have the same function.

You start natural and you grow 20 lbs during the first year.

You start taking sdrol and you gain 20 lbs during the first month.

Any scenario will slow down to an extreme,

If you're gonna accuse me of being on testosteron you will do that by week 1-12 and not week 12-24, get it? I won't grow even 50% during 12-24

 

[Bintherduntht]

Yeah but that's like being a natural on steroids which it basically is. But what I mean saying that is that a person with or without test will have the same function.

You start natural and you grow 20 lbs during the first year.

You start taking sdrol and you gain 20 lbs during the first month.

Any scenario will slow down to an extreme,

If you're gonna accuse me of being on testosteron you will do that by week 1-12 and not week 12-24, get it? I won't grow even 50% during 12-24

But why will the gains slow?

 

[Chados]

But why will the gains slow?

Well imagine you being on 500mg of test. As a beginner one could expect what? 20 lbs lean mass would be Amazing. If you ended up cruising that for a year you obviously won't keep building at that rate. Steroids are just an improved (you)

 

[Bintherduntht]

Well imagine you being on 500mg of test. As a beginner one could expect what? 20 lbs lean mass would be Amazing. If you ended up cruising that for a year you obviously won't keep building at that rate. Steroids are just an improved (you)

Well that's why you blast and cruise lol

 

[Chados]

Well that's why you blast and cruise lol

You still won't build at the same rate

 

[Bintherduntht]

You still won't build at the same rate

Yea dude. You will.

You may not build as in get bigger, but the quality of my muscle gets better every month.

I do my cycle right? Gain 20lbs.

Cruz for 3 months keeping 10-15lbs

Blast again, another 15lbs then cruise.

Do you understand?

 

[rtmilburn]

But why will the gains slow?

Its called myostatin. Just google it. Its not that complicated

 

[Chados]

Yea dude. You will.

You may not build as in get bigger, but the quality of my muscle gets better every month.

I do my cycle right? Gain 20lbs.

Cruz for 3 months keeping 10-15lbs

Blast again, another 15lbs then cruise.

Do you understand?

You just said exactly what i did?. You don't get the point here, we're saying that you won't grow (as much) every month wether it's quality or not it won't happen ..

You would be the biggest man alive if it was that simple.

No matter how much gains one make they won't make as much every month, it's impossible.

 

[mikeymike85]

Yea dude. You will.

You may not build as in get bigger, but the quality of my muscle gets better every month.

I do my cycle right? Gain 20lbs.

Cruz for 3 months keeping 10-15lbs

Blast again, another 15lbs then cruise.

Do you understand?

Lol bro do you cycle? You're basically saying you would gain 40 lbs each year.

 

[Hyde]

Lol bro do you cycle? You're basically saying you would gain 40 lbs each year.

I remember when I first learned to deadlift and, being built for it, was pulling 400s pretty quickly. I remember thinking at this rate I should be able to pull 800 in like a decade...here I am 8 years later and still need to hit 650

 

[bradleyt1]

Your body will say enough is enough when you have reached your genetic limit.

If you are always on test, above trt, you will always gain. Period.

I Couldn’t agree more! I don’t believe in androgen receptors all of a sudden not working anymore.. if that were the case then trt would constantly need to increase and that’s not the case. If you are constantly on 400- 500mg of just test.. I believe you will keep growing until whatever is the limit for that amount

 

[Chados]

I Couldn’t agree more! I don’t believe in androgen receptors all of a sudden not working anymore.. if that were the case then trt would constantly need to increase and that’s not the case. If you are constantly on 400- 500mg of just test.. I believe you will keep growing until whatever is the limit for that amount

Oh my god dude. Nobody is saying they stop working, it's been explained 15 times now.

If you grow natural (without aas) and you eat to perfection and you just started working out. Let's say you gain 20 pounds during your first year in lean muscle. Would you then gain 20 the next year, then the next until you're 80 years old? Of course you wouldn't. Now what makes you think you'd do that with trt? It's the exact same thing , you're just having more test than you would naturally which means naturally your gain 20 then on trt you'd gain maybe 40. You're not gonna keep adding 40 each year on trt. That's what were saying not that your body is immune to growth.

 

[Hyde]

Oh my god dude. Nobody is saying they stop working, it's been explained 15 times now.

If you grow natural (without aas) and you eat to perfection and you just started working out. Let's say you gain 20 pounds during your first year in lean muscle. Would you then gain 20 the next year, then the next until you're 80 years old? Of course you wouldn't. Now what makes you think you'd do that with trt? It's the exact same thing , you're just having more test than you would naturally which means naturally your gain 20 then on trt you'd gain maybe 40. You're not gonna keep adding 40 each year on trt. That's what were saying not that your body is immune to growth.

This! The body adapts to what it is getting routinely - this is the same Law of Adaption that applies to training. If you take 200 test for months on end, you won’t keep getting meaningful growth out of that dose. You must up it, rotate compounds, or lower the dose for a period to RE-SENSITIZE.

So you can cruise at 100 and blast at 500 test and grow every time you come back to 500mg/wk, but if you just stay on 500mg your body will adapt and that will become it’s new norm in time - it will not continue to grow at the rate of the first couple months on that dose.

 

[rtmilburn]

This! The body adapts to what it is getting routinely - this is the same Law of Adaption that applies to training. If you take 200 test for months on end, you won’t keep getting meaningful growth out of that dose. You must up it, rotate compounds, or lower the dose for a period to RE-SENSITIZE.

So you can cruise at 100 and blast at 500 test and grow every time you come back to 500mg/wk, but if you just stay on 500mg your body will adapt and that will become it’s new norm in time - it will not continue to grow at the rate of the first couple months on that dose.

People get stuck on the adrogen receptor being the problem, causing the lack of further gains.

Personally i dont by it at all. I dont believe the receptors get desensitized at all tbh. I think the more likely possibility is that inhibitory proteins, on of which being myostatin, increases as a compensantory mechanism to limit growth.

This is due to it being very dangerous to be able to grow without limit. This is why you need yo lower the dosage of all compounds, which in return lower myostatin follows.

Once these inhibitory proteins decrease enough you blast again, allowing for more growth. Obviously the more muscle you have less you can gain each time, since those proteins will remain higher with increased muscle.

The reason why blasting and cruising works better than just chronic high dose cycles is, muscle cells dont die just fat cells. The only shrink, unless there is an extreme circumstance. The muscle memory thing is real, any cell wants to be in its biggest state thats its ever been in. It just need the proper stimulation to do so, and if we cut gear they will TEMPORARILY shrink. However, once you get back on high dosed gear the the return to there largest size VERY quick. Then now you have lower inhibitory proteins limiting growth, for a bit before they raise again, allowing for new growth to happen. This causes a new set point for both on and off gear.

 

[Hyde]

People get stuck on the adrogen receptor being the problem, causing the lack of further gains.

Personally i dont by it at all. I dont believe the receptors get desensitized at all tbh. I think the more likely possibility is that inhibitory proteins, on of which being myostatin, increases as a compensantory mechanism to limit growth.

This is due to it being very dangerous to be able to grow without limit. This is why you need yo lower the dosage of all compounds, which in return lower myostatin follows.

Once these inhibitory proteins decrease enough you blast again, allowing for more growth. Obviously the more muscle you have less you can gain each time, since those proteins will remain higher with increased muscle.

The reason why blasting and cruising works better than just chronic high dose cycles is, muscle cells dont die just fat cells. The only shrink, unless there is an extreme circumstance. The muscle memory thing is real, any cell wants to be in its biggest state thats its ever been in. It just need the proper stimulation to do so, and if we cut gear they will TEMPORARILY shrink. However, once you get back on high dosed gear the the return to there largest size VERY quick. Then now you have lower inhibitory proteins limiting growth, for a bit before they raise again, allowing for new growth to happen. This causes a new set point for both on and off gear.

That sounds good to me! Lol let me be clear in that my receptor proposition is just theory I’ve been exposed to, but the net effect is very real, and very much the same of your argument: staying at the same dose/cocktail for very extended cycles becomes ineffective.

 

[rtmilburn]

That sounds good to me! Lol let me be clear in that my receptor proposition is just theory I’ve been exposed to, but the net effect is very real, and very much the same of your argument: staying at the same dose/cocktail for very extended cycles becomes ineffective.

Haha. Mines just a theory too. So no worries brother. There is very little real science here. We have to work with what little we have and lots of broscience.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Lol bro do you cycle? You're basically saying you would gain 40 lbs each year.

Nope never cycled. What are sturroids???

How are PROS SO FUKKIN BIG THEN.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Nope never cycled. What are sturroids???

How are PROS SO FUKKIN BIG THEN.

Corect me if I'm wrong but most pros blast and cruise...? They give their body a break from anabolics so that their system can once again be sensitive to anabolica and allow myostatin to reduce. Myostatin is a chemical your body makes that blocks the anabolic effect of steroids. And if I remember correctly the longer you are on the higher myostatin gets.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Corect me if I'm wrong but most pros blast and cruise...? They give their body a break from anabolics so that their system can once again be sensitive to anabolica and allow myostatin to reduce. Myostatin is a chemical your body makes that blocks the anabolic effect of steroids. And if I remember correctly the longer you are on the higher myostatin gets.

That's my whole point. Blast and cruise and you will ALWAYS gain!

 

[Bintherduntht]

Corect me if I'm wrong but most pros blast and cruise...? They give their body a break from anabolics so that their system can once again be sensitive to anabolica and allow myostatin to reduce. Myostatin is a chemical your body makes that blocks the anabolic effect of steroids. And if I remember correctly the longer you are on the higher myostatin gets.

They are also on a shet load of growth which helps maintain there gains. They are probably cruising on a way higher dose of test. Not like 200mg a week