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Clomid during cycle

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During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels or altering the responses of LH and FSH to LRH administration.




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Unstable patterns of serum LH, FSH, and T concentration were demonstrated during frequent interval sampling in 4 normal men. No consistent relationship of T levels to the onset of LH rises could be seen. However, onethird of the LH peaks was followed by a rise in T levels and each T elevation was preceded by an LH peak.

The frequency of release and half-times of disappearance for LH and FSH did not change during clomiphene treatment in 2 of these normal subjects (100 mg/day); elevated serum gonadotropins resulted from an increased magnitude of release per pulse. A similar exaggeration of T secretion was seen. Testosterone propionate injection (25 mg) on day 4 of clomiphene treatment further elevated circulating T levels without lowering serum gonadotropins.
 
rtmilburn said:
Im thinking for my next cycle i will run something like this

-low dose NALTREXONE: .75mg before bed everynight except Wednesday. starting 1 week before cycle through pct(very promising data for LDN)
-TOREM: 60mg 1 week before cycle, so it has time to kick in, all the way through pct
-OL K1NGSBLOOD: as recommended start through pct. I know its natural and probably wont effect test levels at all, but it has some things in it that show promise for POSSIBLY mitigating suppression.
-Na-DAA chelate: 3.12g something as above, and i know its data is also meh. Although its cheap so why not?
-Extra ROYAL JELLY: 3g shown to prevent damage to testes caused by 19nors
-TAURINE: 10g same as royal jelly
-Extra LONG JACK (lj:100): 400mg on top of k1ngsblood.
-PREGNENOLONE: 200mg sublingual in morning.
-ANADROL: 100mg for 8 weeks.
-OL K1NGSGUARD: as recommended
-TUDCA: 1G added on top of k1ngsguard
-NAC: 3g

i hope to do pre, during, pct, and 2month post pct bloods and see were LH, FSH, e2, testosterone, etc, and chose anadrol only since it obviously can't convert to test or estrogen, is fast acting, and considered highly supressive. So this way on the bloodwork, i know any testosterone or e2 is what im producing.
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No way I would run anadrol only for that long... I know someone who ran adrol only cycle.. They were strong as hell and slept all day lol. Were like a walking zombie when awake. He said he would never do it again. Your a brave man in the name of science.... Would love to see you log that.

You do have the pregenolone in there which is a parent hormone. What's your purpose in adding that, just curious.
 
Godstrength said:
No way I would run anadrol only for that long... I know someone who ran adrol only cycle.. They were strong as hell and slept all day lol. Were like a walking zombie when awake. He said he would never do it again. Your a brave man in the name of science.... Would love to see you log that.

You do have the pregenolone in there which is a parent hormone. What's your purpose in adding that, just curious.
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Yes pregnenolone is a parent hormone, although it does not seem to effect testosterone levels at all.

My main reason for it's inclusion is energy. Pregnenolone it's self can significantly boost energy and its down stream hormones(cortisol, acth) can too. Also pregnenolone has shown to bind to gaba receptors and reduce anxiety, and on a anadrol only cycle I think I'll need that. Plus pregnenolone has numerous of other benefits.
 
rtmilburn said:
Regarding the daa, the studies used different forms so its really hard to tell. I threw it in there as why not thing. As for tudca yes your correct, but im still gonna shoot for the 1.2g
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Agreed; I’ve not seen anything supporting the notion that one form is better than another (obviously some more potent mg/mg) but what I’m saying as to “why not?” is:

What if this lowers endogenous test from what could be, say, 700 down to 450? DAA basically belongs only in a scenario where someone is totally shutdown, and then ditched once levels begin to return.
 
rtmilburn said:
Yes pregnenolone is a parent hormone, although it does not seem to effect testosterone levels at all.

My main reason for it's inclusion is energy. Pregnenolone it's self can significantly boost energy and its down stream hormones(cortisol, acth) can too. Also pregnenolone has shown to bind to gaba receptors and reduce anxiety, and on a anadrol only cycle I think I'll need that. Plus pregnenolone has numerous of other benefits.
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Preg can also CAUSE anxiety if too much is taken. Like a very nervous energy. It’s truly an awesome hormone that can go awry when you take too much of a good thing. Lots of interesting feedback in the TRT forum here on it.
 
Hyde said:
Preg can also CAUSE anxiety if too much is taken. Like a very nervous energy. It’s truly an awesome hormone that can go awry when you take too much of a good thing. Lots of interesting feedback in the TRT forum here on it.
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Definitely but with the amount of longjack ill be taking i should have excess. This is due to longjack SIGNIFICANTLY increase pregnenolone conversion rate to dhea. Plus high doses preg makes me calm thb. I actually want to take 200mg daily forever but its expensive at that dose.
 
Hyde said:
Agreed; I’ve not seen anything supporting the notion that one form is better than another (obviously some more potent mg/mg) but what I’m saying as to “why not?” is:

What if this lowers endogenous test from what could be, say, 700 down to 450? DAA basically belongs only in a scenario where someone is totally shutdown, and then ditched once levels begin to return.
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This, DAA is a waste. I had my lowest test levels ever after DAA, other things played in as well but DAA definitely didn’t help.
 
rtmilburn said:
Definitely but with the amount of longjack ill be taking i should have excess. This is due to longjack SIGNIFICANTLY increase pregnenolone conversion rate to dhea. Plus high doses preg makes me calm thb. I actually want to take 200mg daily forever but its expensive at that dose.
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Now THAT is quite interesting to me. Both the longjack fact I didn’t know as well as you tolerating such a huge amount of preg! Lol
 
Hyde said:
Now THAT is quite interesting to me. Both the longjack fact I didn’t know as well as you tolerating such a huge amount of preg! Lol
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Ya preg calms me down, clears my mind, makes me sleep like a baby if take my dose before 7am (after that it usually leads to insomnia) and makes me feel overall better. 200mg is the sweet spot anymore gives me anxiety and much less and i dont notice anything. I should add that im on dexedrine and have been for years, so my adrenal function may be less than normal. Although i dont buy the whole adrenal fatigue thing either.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Invalid Link Removed

During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels or altering the responses of LH and FSH to LRH administration.




Invalid Link Removed


Unstable patterns of serum LH, FSH, and T concentration were demonstrated during frequent interval sampling in 4 normal men. No consistent relationship of T levels to the onset of LH rises could be seen. However, onethird of the LH peaks was followed by a rise in T levels and each T elevation was preceded by an LH peak.

The frequency of release and half-times of disappearance for LH and FSH did not change during clomiphene treatment in 2 of these normal subjects (100 mg/day); elevated serum gonadotropins resulted from an increased magnitude of release per pulse. A similar exaggeration of T secretion was seen. Testosterone propionate injection (25 mg) on day 4 of clomiphene treatment further elevated circulating T levels without lowering serum gonadotropins.
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This was the study I was looking for.
 
BBiceps said:
This, DAA is a waste. I had my lowest test levels ever after DAA, other things played in as well but DAA definitely didn’t help.
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DAA either has no effect on T or actually lowers it. Plus, it's neurotoxic.

Three and six grams supplementation of d-aspartic acid in resistance trained men
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2015; 12: 15.

"The present study demonstrated that a daily dose of six grams of d-aspartic acid decreased levels of total testosterone and free testosterone (D6), without any concurrent change in other hormones measured. Three grams of d-aspartic acid had no significant effect on either testosterone markers."
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If someone like myself is currently on a rolaxifine cycle for gyno reversal. Would it be foolish to run clomid for the benefits it may bring to muscle development?

And if so since the serm is being used would an AI not be crucial anymore? Don’t know if I would run at 15mg of clomid a day or 30mg.

Currently 60 mg of rolax a day.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Invalid Link Removed

During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels or altering the responses of LH and FSH to LRH administration.




Invalid Link Removed


Unstable patterns of serum LH, FSH, and T concentration were demonstrated during frequent interval sampling in 4 normal men. No consistent relationship of T levels to the onset of LH rises could be seen. However, onethird of the LH peaks was followed by a rise in T levels and each T elevation was preceded by an LH peak.

The frequency of release and half-times of disappearance for LH and FSH did not change during clomiphene treatment in 2 of these normal subjects (100 mg/day); elevated serum gonadotropins resulted from an increased magnitude of release per pulse. A similar exaggeration of T secretion was seen. Testosterone propionate injection (25 mg) on day 4 of clomiphene treatment further elevated circulating T levels without lowering serum gonadotropins.
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Nice find on the studies.
 
Dthcore said:
If someone like myself is currently on a rolaxifine cycle for gyno reversal. Would it be foolish to run clomid for the benefits it may bring to muscle development?

And if so since the serm is being used would an AI not be crucial anymore? Don’t know if I would run at 15mg of clomid a day or 30mg.

Currently 60 mg of rolax a day.
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No issues running clomid at the same time. Run a low dose, 12.5 mg ED or EOD. No AI
 
Lol
 
Been on TRT for about 2 years. Started LGD, S23 and clomid (40mg EOD) a week ago and my nuts are already getting firm and starting to grow. Last night my old lady was playing with my junk and she said "you have balls again". Actually clomid is closer to 2 weeks in.

FYI
 
Peanutbutterj said:
Nice find on the studies.
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I'd love to see a study with a longer timeline and "normal" dosing protocol for both the clomid and androgens.

FWIW, I'm on TRT (6 months-ish) and had to add nolva for gyno. no change in LH and FSH for me.

I know several people who have tried this with bloodwork prior to and after their cycles and did not see the results that they had hoped to...
 
CatSnake said:
I'd love to see a study with a longer timeline and "normal" dosing protocol for both the clomid and androgens.

FWIW, I'm on TRT (6 months-ish) and had to add nolva for gyno. no change in LH and FSH for me.

I know several people who have tried this with bloodwork prior to and after their cycles and did not see the results that they had hoped to...
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There may very well be a genetic polymorphism in hypothalamic E2 receptors that causes this to work in some but not others. That would explain the mixed results...
 
Spurfy said:
There may very well be a genetic polymorphism in hypothalamic E2 receptors that causes this to work in some but not others. That would explain the mixed results...
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Never thought about this being a possibility... makes sense if that is the case.
 
CatSnake said:
hold on a sec....

I just realized that this whole post is based around you doing an 10 week oral cycle with a no-SERM PCT and comparing it to a more recent cycle?
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No, it’s a about doing a cycle with a serm, Clomid or some seem to like Torem, during cycle to see if you get less shut down and have an easier time to recover during pct.
 
CatSnake said:
I'd love to see a study with a longer timeline and "normal" dosing protocol for both the clomid and androgens.

FWIW, I'm on TRT (6 months-ish) and had to add nolva for gyno. no change in LH and FSH for me.

I know several people who have tried this with bloodwork prior to and after their cycles and did not see the results that they had hoped to...
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I’m all for more studies as well; I’d rather have accurate information than just studies that only agree with my case/argument (not that I have a particular side on this topic).

I do find it interesting that people can PCT with Ostarine and still recover; maybe it’s a combination of low dose and weak anabolic activity that still allows a good recovery.

Also, good luck with your TRT mate.
 
Peanutbutterj said:
I do find it interesting that people can PCT with Ostarine and still recover; maybe it’s a combination of low dose and weak anabolic activity that still allows a good recovery.
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In my case, after 5 weeks on 25mg ostarine, my LH was basically the same as before the cycle. My TT was however ZERO. It's how ostarine works apparently. However I have no idea how my TT was zero despite the fact LH was normal... Oh, and my TT was a good 50% back after 7 days off of ostarine, without a SERM!
 
Jinsun said:
In my case, after 5 weeks on 25mg ostarine, my LH was basically the same as before the cycle. My TT was however ZERO. It's how ostarine works apparently. However I have no idea how my TT was zero despite the fact LH was normal... Oh, and my TT was a good 50% back after 7 days off of ostarine, without a SERM!
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Holy crap, zero?

Thanks for sharing man, a lot of people seem to get their SARM info from websites that sell it - and it’s a common misconception that SARMs are ‘minimally suppressive’.

Good to hear you recovered
 
Peanutbutterj said:
Holy crap, zero?

Thanks for sharing man, a lot of people seem to get their SARM info from websites that sell it - and it’s a common misconception that SARMs are ‘minimally suppressive’.

Good to hear you recovered
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Yeah, almost zero. 0,6 or something like that. Ref range cca 1 - 7. Also it skyrocketed my enzymes. ALT was 8x above upper range lol. I have a topic named "crazy high alt and ast". To lazy to paste a link :)
 
Jinsun said:
In my case, after 5 weeks on 25mg ostarine, my LH was basically the same as before the cycle. My TT was however ZERO. It's how ostarine works apparently. However I have no idea how my TT was zero despite the fact LH was normal... Oh, and my TT was a good 50% back after 7 days off of ostarine, without a SERM!
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your total testosterone was 0? what was it before?

ostarine is clearly suppressive, but I have never heard of complete shutdown on it before.....
 
Bump
 
Let’s say you are running 500mg a week test e for 12 weeks
Weeks 13-14 nothing then pct
What if you run clomid through cycle should you continue on those 2 weeks ?
 
I would continue for at least 2 weeks after the ester completely clears your body
 
Jinsun said:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/301771-crazy-high-alt.html

Really interested if a serm on cycle would have helped...
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depends which one.... tore or nolva might have actually caused more issues with your liver/kidneys.

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"Both tamoxifen and toremifene increased the incidence of hypernephromas in previously DEN-initiated rats.

While both tamoxifen and toremifene are effective promoting agents for DEN-initiated lesions, tamoxifen is more potent than toremifene in the induction of rat hepatocarcinogenesis."




what brand of Ostarine did you use? I have never heard of anyone getting that kind of HPTA suppression before.... maybe more like a 1/3 or 1/2 of their pre-cycle bloodwork (to be clear-I'm not accusing you of lying.... just absolutely stunned by your bloodwork).

also, did you see significant gains on the Osta? like maybe it was something else?




.
 
CatSnake said:
depends which one.... tore or nolva might have actually caused more issues with your liver.

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Nonsense.

Toremifene on its own is not liver toxic nor carcinogenic. This study only shows that tamoxifen is a carcinogen.

The only rats that developed liver tumors on toremifene in this study were already given a carcinogenic drug, and these rats only developed 1/3 the tumors that the same group of tamoxifen rats + nitrosamine developed.

No rats in the toremifene-only group developed tumors, while rats in the tamoxifen-only group did.

If anything, this study is demonstrative of toremifene's lack of toxicity.
 
CatSnake said:
depends which one.... tore or nolva might have actually caused more issues with your liver.

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what brand of Ostarine did you use? I have never heard of anyone getting that kind of HPTA suppression before.... maybe more like a 1/3 or 1/2 of their pre-cycle bloodwork (to be clear-I'm not accusing you of lying.... just absolutely stunned by your bloodwork).

also, did you see significant gains on the Osta? like maybe it was something else?




.
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OL UK

My LH was basically unaffected, so I doubt it was a PH or AAS... I have read that osta shuts down before though. So not to surprised there.

Spurfy is tamox really that bad? I am just about ready to order it a bit more so I can use it throughout the whole cycle.
 
Spurfy said:
Nonsense.

Toremifene on its own is not liver toxic nor carcinogenic. This study only shows that tamoxifen is a carcinogen.

The only rats that developed liver tumors on toremifene in this study were already given a carcinogenic drug, and these rats only developed 1/3 the tumors that the same group of tamoxifen rats + nitrosamine developed.

No rats in the toremifene-only group developed tumors, while rats in the tamoxifen-only group did.

If anything, this study is demonstrative of toremifene's lack of toxicity.
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sure.



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.
 
Jinsun said:
Yeah, almost zero. 0,6 or something like that. Ref range cca 1 - 7. Also it skyrocketed my enzymes. ALT was 8x above upper range lol. I have a topic named "crazy high alt and ast". To lazy to paste a link :)
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More evidence that you were not using Ostarine!
 
Bump
 
Due to the fact that my injectables are taking FOR EVER to arrive, I've started a different cycle today. It's just comprised of the stuff that I have with me atm, so it's a bit unorthodox maybe. I want the cycle to be over somewhere in the middle of June, so it is what it is. Goal is cut 6 pounds in 6 - 8 weeks and keep all mm. Going to use tamox through the whole cycle, just a question of when to start it and how much to take Spurfy ?

Cycle is based around Sparta Cerberus v2. So it's going to be a really mild one, but just for cutting I don't need more than this... Cerberus dosage, 4 pills, equates to 330 1andro, 330 4andro and 600 epiandro, with cyclosome delivery which is supposedly better then OL's Lypo...

Cerberus (pills): 4/4/4/4/4/4
Tamox (mg): 0/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10
Var (mg): 0/0/0/0/25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5
Cardarine 7mg ED
Aromasin ????
UDCA: 1000mg ED
NAC 1000mg ED

This is based on the theory that tamox should help avoid suppression. I'll have test prop and cyp at hand, in two weeks time, so I can pin if suppression gets out of hand.

I have no idea about Ai usage on this cycle though... So any advice on how and if to dose would be of great help. I wouldn't use it just for the andro stack alone... And I'm kinda sceptical about the tamox saturating all ER receptors and thus eliminating the need for an Ai... :) :) :)

Will do bloods through the cycle and keep you guys in the loop.
 
Not sure if you have the nolva already but I know Spurfy has something against it, lol.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Not sure if you have the nolva already but I know Spurfy has something against it, lol.
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Already have it yes. I feel good on nolva, so unless Spurfy convinces me that my liver will divorce me and that I will get brain cancer I'll go with nolva :)
 
CatSnake said:
sure.



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.
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SO torem elevates liver enzymes 5 to 20% above normal, right. I think avoiding HTPA shutdown/ damage is more important than slightly elevated enzymes on an organ that can regenerate itself from major damage. That's just me.
 
Jinsun said:
Already have it yes. I feel good on nolva, so unless Spurfy convinces me that my liver will divorce me and that I will get brain cancer I'll go with nolva :)
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I would say 10mg is a good starting dose. If you experience testicular atrophy you can increase the dose as needed.
 
RickyBlobby said:
SO torem elevates liver enzymes 5 to 20% above normal, right. I think avoiding HTPA shutdown/ damage is more important than slightly elevated enzymes on an organ that can regenerate itself from major damage. That's just me.
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The cancer thing is what scares me... I'll be doing liver test ew so if enzymes get 3x over range I'll quit.
 
Jinsun said:
Cycle is based around Sparta Cerberus v2. So it's going to be a really mild one, but just for cutting I don't need more than this... Cerberus dosage, 4 pills, equates to 330 1andro, 330 4andro and 600 epiandro, with cyclosome delivery which is supposedly better then OL's Lypo...

Cerberus (pills): 4/4/4/4/4/4
Tamox (mg): 0/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10
Var (mg): 0/0/0/0/25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5
Cardarine 7mg ED
Aromasin ????
UDCA: 1000mg ED
NAC 1000mg ED


I have no idea about Ai usage on this cycle though... So any advice on how and if to dose would be of great help. I wouldn't use it just for the andro stack alone... And I'm kinda sceptical about the tamox saturating all ER receptors and thus eliminating the need for an Ai...
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Thoughts: put the 12.5mg var days on the 2 weeks of overlap with Cerberus so you can finish on 25. The body is less responsive to hormonal stimulus as time passes, so we never decrease dosage as time goes on - this is wasted time on cycle. It’s like watching a fireworks display where you become desensitized to the display as it progresses so more firepower is needed to wow. Always put your biggest guns at the end.

I actually do need a tidbit of AI on 4andro, but the tamoxifen should manage that just fine. Anavar doesn’t aromatizes so unless the tamoxifen isn’t enough to manage the bit of 4andro somehow there is no need for an AI in this cycle. I’d start the tamoxifen from day one to keep LH high as possible from the start.

Also consider Epiandro competes with estrogen for the receptor space the way masteron does, further reducing the need for an AI.
 
Hyde said:
Thoughts: put the 12.5mg var days on the 2 weeks of overlap with Cerberus so you can finish on 25. The body is less responsive to hormonal stimulus as time passes, so we never decrease dosage as time goes on - this is wasted time on cycle. It’s like watching a fireworks display where you become desensitized to the display as it progresses so more firepower is needed to wow. Always put your biggest guns at the end.

I actually do need a tidbit of AI on 4andro, but the tamoxifen should manage that just fine. Anavar doesn’t aromatizes so unless the tamoxifen isn’t enough to manage the bit of 4andro somehow there is no need for an AI in this cycle. I’d start the tamoxifen from day one to keep LH high as possible from the start.

Also consider Epiandro competes with estrogen for the receptor space the way masteron does, further reducing the need for an AI.
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Tnx for you thoughts!

I completely understand where you're coming from regarding var dosages and I completely agree with you on that... The way I've set it up now is in regards to pct/recovery. I wanted the last days of the cycle to be easier for recovery, thus half the dose of var. With a 25mg dose on the last days I think a one or two more weeks of nothing more but tamox wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't know, this is all experimenting and I guess I'll addjust on the go.

25mg var is also a very low dose. If serum LH and TT levels will be high after the fourth week of andro's, and if enzymes wont be to high, I might start with 50mg var instead of 25 or 12.5 as you suggested. Or start with 25 and end with 50...
 
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