Best PH of all Time
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RickyBlobby
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Abstract
Based on the premise that testosterone, but not 7 alpha-methyl-androgens, is reduced at the 5 alpha-position in the prostate and seminal vesicles, the differential bioactivities of these androgens were investigated in castrated rats. The ability of 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone acetate (MENT) to increase the weights of ventral prostate and seminal vesicles of castrated rats was four times higher than that of testosterone, while its effect on the weights of bulbocavernosus plus levator ani muscles (muscle), was 10 times that of testosterone. [B]MENT was also approximately 12 times more potent than testosterone in the suppression of serum gonadotropin levels[/B]. A dose of testosterone that maintains serum gonadotropin levels and muscle mass also maintains prostate and seminal vesicle weights in castrated rats. By contrast, a dose of MENT that maintains muscle and gonadotropins does not maintain prostate and seminal vesicles. The action of other 7 alpha-methylated androgens were similar to that of MENT. The importance of 5 alpha reductase in the differential action of testosterone and MENT on prostate was confirmed by using a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor. The activity of testosterone was significantly suppressed in the ventral prostate and seminal vesicles but not on muscle by the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor (N,N-diethyl-3-oxo-4-aza-5 alpha-androst-1-ene-17 beta-carboxamide). The enzyme inhibitor, however, had no influence on the activity of MENT on either tissue. In contrast, cyproterone acetate, an antiandrogen that competitively binds to the androgen receptors, inhibited the action of MENT and of testosterone on the prostate as well as on the muscle. In conclusion, these observations show that 7 alpha-methylated androgens can maintain muscle mass and normal gonadotropin levels in androgen deficient rats without hyperstimulating the prostate. These findings suggest that 7 alpha-methylated androgens may offer some health benefits to men who require androgen treatment.
It appears as though even though trestolone doesn't 5a reduce that it is still a much stronger androgen than testosterone. Possibly similar to the angrogenicity of DHT itself.
Abstract
Based on the premise that testosterone, but not 7 alpha-methyl-androgens, is reduced at the 5 alpha-position in the prostate and seminal vesicles, the differential bioactivities of these androgens were investigated in castrated rats. The ability of 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone acetate (MENT) to increase the weights of ventral prostate and seminal vesicles of castrated rats was four times higher than that of testosterone, while its effect on the weights of bulbocavernosus plus levator ani muscles (muscle), was 10 times that of testosterone. [B]MENT was also approximately 12 times more potent than testosterone in the suppression of serum gonadotropin levels[/B]. A dose of testosterone that maintains serum gonadotropin levels and muscle mass also maintains prostate and seminal vesicle weights in castrated rats. By contrast, a dose of MENT that maintains muscle and gonadotropins does not maintain prostate and seminal vesicles. The action of other 7 alpha-methylated androgens were similar to that of MENT. The importance of 5 alpha reductase in the differential action of testosterone and MENT on prostate was confirmed by using a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor. The activity of testosterone was significantly suppressed in the ventral prostate and seminal vesicles but not on muscle by the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor (N,N-diethyl-3-oxo-4-aza-5 alpha-androst-1-ene-17 beta-carboxamide). The enzyme inhibitor, however, had no influence on the activity of MENT on either tissue. In contrast, cyproterone acetate, an antiandrogen that competitively binds to the androgen receptors, inhibited the action of MENT and of testosterone on the prostate as well as on the muscle. In conclusion, these observations show that 7 alpha-methylated androgens can maintain muscle mass and normal gonadotropin levels in androgen deficient rats without hyperstimulating the prostate. These findings suggest that 7 alpha-methylated androgens may offer some health benefits to men who require androgen treatment.
It appears as though even though trestolone doesn't 5a reduce that it is still a much stronger androgen than testosterone. Possibly similar to the angrogenicity of DHT itself.
niklasericson
Active member
I'am prone to DHT related mpb and I never lost any hair from DHT products like Epi Andro or Stano but I did lose hair on 1 Andro.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Anavar is DHT based too but does not cause a lot of hairloss compared to other DHT's. It's how androgenic the compound is, anavar is not very androgenic but trest, tren is
210LBS
Well-known member
Eh... I don't think it's quite as easy as that. There are a lot of DHT derivatives that are not androgenic that people claim completely wreck their hair line. Epistane would be a good example of that. I think one of the problems too is that people stack so many compounds that they don't know what is causing their hair loss. But some people blame androgenic compounds and others blame DHT derivatives. Either way, if you mess with hormones, you are risking hair loss.
niklasericson
Active member
Yes, but Epiandro's anabolic/androgenic ratio is 152/268.
That's highly androgenic isn't it?
That's highly androgenic isn't it?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I think that is around double that of testosterone. Not sure but I think DHT is at least 4 times as androgenic, maybe more.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Yeah, I was speaking in general terms, there are always exceptions.
Chados
Well-known member
These ratios are not real guys.. they don't make any sense and are measure on rats first of all which sometimes is a good way of measuring and sometimes not. The other thing is how the compounds bind to receptors. Deca is not supposed to be androgenic yet it shows androgrenic sides. Anavar is supposed to have about 0 androgenic properties yet it has shown to give mote androgenic sides than superdrol according to Mike Arnold.
The most androgenic steroid I've used is tren, the second one that affected me the most was actually test. Nothing else has given me any direct signs of being androgenic but to others it has. Dosage has a lot to do with this too not just the steroid itself.
The most androgenic steroid I've used is tren, the second one that affected me the most was actually test. Nothing else has given me any direct signs of being androgenic but to others it has. Dosage has a lot to do with this too not just the steroid itself.
Destroying
Member
most of the Deca sides are limp dick “deca-dick” and gyno. These are not androgen sides. These are progesterone or prolactin sides. deca and tren are progestins. Although Tren is a ridiculous androgen at the same time, 500:500.
Superdrol is insanely androgenic. It’s literally Masteron, which is already altered at the 2a with a Methyl group, it then has the 17aa alteration, making it supremely powerful. And extremely toxic. Ratio is 400:20 on paper, but there is not a stronger androgen, with the exception of Halo and a couple others.
Superdrol is insanely androgenic. It’s literally Masteron, which is already altered at the 2a with a Methyl group, it then has the 17aa alteration, making it supremely powerful. And extremely toxic. Ratio is 400:20 on paper, but there is not a stronger androgen, with the exception of Halo and a couple others.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
What leads you to this conclusion?
Chados
Well-known member
I respect your opinion but it's just not true. Halotestin on (paper) is the most androgenic yes and anabolic, again these ratios are false. Halotestin would be the biggest mass builder by far but it's not. In fact people tend to not gain any size at all with halo.
Destroying
Member
Androgen does not bring size, Anabolic is what brings size. Pure androgens bring raw strength. Superdrol will pack lean mass on you, it’s just way too toxic.
Halo brings a huge increase in transient strength/Agression. I would put forward that these drugs would put size in you, again they are just not ran for that reason due to toxicity and whatnot.
I’ll tell you this, Superdrol put about 10 pounds on me in a week.
Destroying
Member
Popping superdrol. For me it’s like 10 mg superdrol = 100 proviron, and then some.
Chados
Well-known member
I never said anything about androgenic anabolic size. the fact Is that halo has 1900 in anabolic rating and it's not true. It's how they bind to the receptors. Superdrol didn't give me any androgenic sides at all. Superdrols toxicity is highly overrated from what it brings to the table. Compare it to anadrol as an example, superdrol is mild I'm comparison. In the liver damage thread i posted a long explanation about this posted by mike Arnold on another site. It's not only been tested but androgens are measured on how they bind to the prostate in humans and ratios are from rats.
As I said before it's very important to take dosage in consideration.
Destroying
Member
As much as I respect your opinion I don’t necessarily agree. 50 mg superdrol a day is way more toxic than Anadrol! The whole reAson it wasn’t ever marketed was toxicity. Otherwise one of the most powerful AAS
Chados
Well-known member
No it was marketed as a ph and prohormones never gets marketed as medicin that's the difference. They are not made to be used in medicin. You see the same thing with things like tbol. Highly toxic no but it's illegal. Not everything in this world makes sense and superdrol could very well be used in medicin just like aspartame was created by mistake. They as far as I know haven't done any studies on it regarding medicine. Anadrol is perhaps the most toxic steroids out there with halo,tren,cheque drops. Were not just looking a liver toxicity here and even then superdrol is not as toxic.
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
Both of you guys are getting pist off but are leaving out info and or putting in misinformation to start off the best PH is ADRODROL:
Serving Size: 1 Capsule
Servings Per Container: 60
Amount Per Serving:
4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3-17b-diol 20mg
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol 15mg
13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)dien-17-one 15mg
2a-17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one 10mg
6 bromoandrostenedione 50mg
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
I'm just joking of course but there is some missing info. To start many PH seem to be liver toxic because they result in very elevated liver enzymes. However this can be misleading because if the liver has a very hard time breaking down and metabolizing a compound it will cause very high liver enzymes even if the compound causes zero damage to the liver or organs
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
The next think I would like to point out that is missing is that the AA chart is very far from accurate, I can't remember off hand how they rate them but it has to do with the comparison to known compound's reaction to muscle, fat, and soft tissue cells. I believe Methyltrienalone is 1 compound used to rate the androgenic side of the AA chart. I will edit this when I find in my notes how they come up with the rating.
Destroying
Member
I’m sorry dude. Superdrol is a very old AAS. It was made by the same company that made Masteron, as a potential anti breast cancer drug. They never brought it to market. That was 50 years ago. Most “Prohormones” are just AAS that we’re not marketed either due to lack of efficacy, or extreme toxicity.
Chados
Well-known member
Sure but what I mean is that people are over worrying about phs because they're supposedly highly liver toxic as soon as they give good gains. Drol has been linked to cancer and more
Chados
Well-known member
And again it has been marketed as a ph and has it ever been used in medicin or even talked about as beneficial?
Chados
Well-known member
Superdrol is an anabolic androgenic steroid comprised of the active steroidal hormone Methyldrostanolone. This is a dihydrotestosterone (DHT) derived anabolic steroid or more specifically a structurally altered form of Drostanolone. Superdrol is simply the Drostanolone hormone with an added methyl group at the 17th carbon position that allows the hormone to survive oral ingestion and officially classifies it as a C17-alpha alkylated (C17-aa) anabolic steroid. It also carries an added methyl group at the carbon two position, which greatly increases its anabolic power. These slight alterations will also reduce Superdrol’s androgenicity compared to Masteron, which isn’t all that androgenic to begin with.
On a structural basis, Superdrol carries an anabolic rating of 400; nearly four times that of Masteron. It will also carry an androgenic rating of 20, which is extremely mild. This is a non-aromatizing anabolic steroid carrying no estrogenic or progesterone activity.
When looking at the traits of Superdrol, there is nothing all that remarkable about this steroid compared to many others. The mere fact that it enjoyed years of grey legality is truly the only remarkable attribute. This isn’t to take away from the steroid’s ability, but is merely stated to clear up any confusion or misguided notions. Superdrol will notably enhance protein synthesis and nitrogen retention. Protein synthesis refers to the rate by which cells build proteins and nitrogen represents a key component in muscle tissue composition. The enhancement in both areas promotes a stronger anabolic atmosphere enabling the individual to build more lean tissue or preserve it during a calorie restricted state. The hormone will also significantly increase red blood cell count providing greater muscular endurance. This is due to red blood cells being responsible for carrying oxygen to and through the blood and the increase in cells providing greater blood oxygenation
On a structural basis, Superdrol carries an anabolic rating of 400; nearly four times that of Masteron. It will also carry an androgenic rating of 20, which is extremely mild. This is a non-aromatizing anabolic steroid carrying no estrogenic or progesterone activity.
When looking at the traits of Superdrol, there is nothing all that remarkable about this steroid compared to many others. The mere fact that it enjoyed years of grey legality is truly the only remarkable attribute. This isn’t to take away from the steroid’s ability, but is merely stated to clear up any confusion or misguided notions. Superdrol will notably enhance protein synthesis and nitrogen retention. Protein synthesis refers to the rate by which cells build proteins and nitrogen represents a key component in muscle tissue composition. The enhancement in both areas promotes a stronger anabolic atmosphere enabling the individual to build more lean tissue or preserve it during a calorie restricted state. The hormone will also significantly increase red blood cell count providing greater muscular endurance. This is due to red blood cells being responsible for carrying oxygen to and through the blood and the increase in cells providing greater blood oxygenation
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
Another thing that you guys have not discussed is the binding affinity to the angrogenic receptor. IE superdrol [ my favorite ] is extremely close to oral Masterone except 1 key point is the second methyl group at the 2a makes superdrol very hard for the liver to break down but more to the point it make the SD molecule have a VERY high binding affinity to the Andro receptor so this is why Superdrol is so much more powerful than Masterone. Most people do not realize that 17a oral steroids do not pass through the liver and have 100% of the 17a chain removed. The 17a chain just makes it so that 100% of the absorbed molicule will survive the first pass of the liver. This is not to say that some of the original 17a addition will not pass through the liver without having the alkylated addition still attached. So when you are talking about dimethylated compounds they may pass through the liver many times before finally being broken down and metabolized. The 2a chain in particular causes the liver quite some difficulty in removing so something like SD could have 80% of the compound absorbed into the blood through the GI track. Then have only 50% of that of the 17a removed on the first pass leaving 50% still in the blood containing the 17a chain. then once all of the 17a chain is removed the liver has a very hard time removing the 2a chain [ can't tell you why off hand, in notes] so it may pass through the liver many times before having the 2a chain removed then still being an active steroid in the blood before finally passing through the liver and being metabolized.
Chados
Well-known member
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I think there are many "best" designer steroids, each with its own quality that puts it above others.
I think a trest/ DMZ STACK might be one of the best combos. Although I don't know much about Msten which many people love.
I think a trest/ DMZ STACK might be one of the best combos. Although I don't know much about Msten which many people love.
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
I think you guys need to split it into 3 catagories:
Most Usefull [ being all around most useful low sides good gains Msten comes to mind ]
Most Powerful [ being superdrol ect. great for the best results but harsh on sides/ can't run it all the time]
Most Liked [ being the PH that is added on for many reasons Epi comes to mind for this catagory]
But I'm disapointed that Phera didn't make your top 5??? I mean is a great all around PH but Desoxymethyltestosterone which is found in elephants has got to give it points, I mean I strive to behave like a bull elephant
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
^ Yeah I'm not very well versed in designers, more so old school AAS. Ive heard mixed reviews about Phera. Almost everyone loved MSTEN, Trest and DMZ. But I don't have as much first hand experience as a lot of people. Just me putting 2 and 2 together.
I for one loved EPI, but the lethargy sucked. Love trest too. Great combo. Was eating maybe 500 cals a day for 2 months, got shredded AND added mass, by consuming calories at strategic times. DMZ would've probably been better than EPI I bet.
I for one loved EPI, but the lethargy sucked. Love trest too. Great combo. Was eating maybe 500 cals a day for 2 months, got shredded AND added mass, by consuming calories at strategic times. DMZ would've probably been better than EPI I bet.
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
I'm in the same boat. I still have a stockpile of CEL M-drol, P-plex, H-drol, and Spawn so I have not tried new ones but like you said everyone liked Msten even though I didn't try it, MENT I have but yet to try, but MENT is a tricky one from both the power and the horrid methylestrodiol, Epi is probably the most used PH ever made. I just think there shouldn't be an argument for the very top dog but maybe give the top PHs a rating in each catagory IE epistane would get 7-3-9 and superdrol would get a 5-10-4. because if you don't break down a rating for diff categories there is no way to really find the BEST.
Renew1
Legend
I gotta try that stuff.
Chados
Well-known member
Imagine superdrol like tbol. Well nanodrol is more like tren /winstrol. Both very lean gainers but nano being more of a shredded look especially on the shoulders and sdrol being more of a recomp meaning no added fat just a bigger you. It's a preference both are equal in strenght and weight gain to me.
I've been very interested adding sdrol or nanodrol with mast and tren
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Yeah if you use the 3 point scoring system, lol Trest may come out on top. Sides aren't bad as long as you control estrogen, formestane worked fine, great mass builder and a great addition to any stack as a test base. ANd making you a beast in the sack, lol. Maybe 7-7-10
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
I disagree to a point If the categories are [ well rounded good gains/ low sides]-[ power, gains, strength ]-[very popular can be added to most stacks]
I would give MENT 5-10-6 because the estro is a nightmare because MENT converts into all 4 estrogens and methylestrodiol is nearly impossible to manage so I don't think it's well rounded, I think it's insainly powerful, and like you said it's great to be used as a Test base but I would rather use Test as my Test base LOL
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I had zero estrogen sides using formestane, I don't see why people are having all kinds of trouble. And c'mon, a 6 lol? As far as designers go , not talking about old school AAS, Trest is as versatile as any because it is the most potent test base out there. I don't remember if you said you ran trest before or not but if not you will likely change your standpoint lol.
And in my experience trest blows test out of the water as a base. Better energy, better libido, more alpha, etc etc.
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
I have 4 bottles of MENT in my stockpile but have not used it yet. I truly get your point as far as a T base but. However everyone reacts diff to compounds, you tolerate Trest better than anyone I've chatted with cuz everyone so far has had at least a continuous battle upping/lowering/changing their AI. Formistane is the SH1T so maybe that's why. But as for adding to any cycle, 19 nor cycles would be dicey, any other wet cycles would prob have bloat and really hard time with estro. On the flipside I think you can pretty much add epistane to any cycle so I'm using that as a 10 and using Cheque drops as a 1. I still think MENT is really up there I just think you personally have had a way better estro experience that the vast majority of ppl.
Chados
Well-known member
The only thing that made me bloat was dbol without an ai back in the days. Also my diet was trash so it didn't really help. Trest I've used with ai and it's supposed to be even worse than dbol. I think they're quite even but I disagree with people saying trest is the king of orals. I don't think anything can compete with anadrol and the gains from trest is like dbol, easy to gain hard to keep. I thankfully don't bloat at all on drol, the toxicity freaks me out a bit and I honestly think the next time will be my last run. I find trest interesting however cause of its uniqueness and that it potentially can be run without test. This might very well be the future of orals.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Yeah, Trest is like the testosterone of the designer world. I don't think many would argue that test is the most useful steroid all around. It is your base, plus it offers a good ratio of gains vs. sides. That said if you agree that testosterone is the #1 multi purpose steroid, the only thing that would knock trestolone out of the top spot would be the estrogen sides. Which can be mitigated, in my opinion, rather easily with the proper support supplements. Add to that it is available in an oral version, makes an even stronger case for trest...
Am I right or am I right?
Chados
Well-known member
Yeah, Trest is like the testosterone of the designer world. I don't think many would argue that test is the most useful steroid all around. It is your base, plus it offers a good ratio of gains vs. sides. That said if you agree that testosterone is the #1 multi purpose steroid, the only thing that would knock trestolone out of the top spot would be the estrogen sides. Which can be mitigated, in my opinion, rather easily with the proper support supplements. Add to that it is available in an oral version, makes an even stronger case for trest...
Am I right or am I right?
Haha indeed you are.. I just with they would make a trest but a more winstrol like version with no water. It's kinda weird how long they've been making steroids and most old school ones are still at the top. I mean would its probably for the best but don't you think it would be possible to make a super tren acetate with today's knowledge?
Destroying
Member
Yes, was studied as potential anti neoplastic agent around 1960. Too toxic. Never went to FDA for approval.
Destroying
Member
Fight breast cancer but make Swiss cheese with your liver
Chados
Well-known member
Where does it say it's too toxic? It just didn't have any beneficial needs for medicine. It's supposedly quite toxic to the liver of used to long and at a high dosage but it's nothing crazy and androgenic sides are pretty much non existent, it also has no convertion
Destroying
Member
I don’t know dude some ppl run Anadrol at like 150 I’ve even heard of pros usin 300! I’m pretty sure if you did that with Superdrol you’d die.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
You mean basically tren that can be run like a base? I think that would involve estrogen... Honestly I think that is what they went for with trest
(TREn_teST). A drier version would be awesome for sure.
Chados
Well-known member
Yes you can probably run drol higher than many things since the toxicity to the liver can be an instant death if you overdose certain things. The liver is an organ that will repair itself extremly well and due to other things with anadrol it can cause more permanent damage to you. Basically you could feel fine on drol but you might have problems in the future you wouldn't with sdrol. Anadrol is not overly strong per mg. It just has an insane affect on your body you won't get from sdrol.
We're going a bit of track here. I don't know if I was a bit unclear perhaps before saying drol is more toxic without really explaining why I say that. The thing we were talking about wasn't really what's more likely to kill you but wether sdrol is androgenic and according to studies it shows a very little sign of those sides. Some people run tren at 1gr and I just can imagine how these people survive that haha
Chados
Well-known member
I mean a tren that's twice as powerful haha. I just don't understand how it hasn't been invented. Maybe they don't know how yet.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Destroying
Member
Fair enough I agree that it acts as a pure androgen- the superdrol. It just stronger than a lot of ppl give it credit for
Destroying
Member
Just run 1,000mg a week
Wonder what the pip would be like if they could dose gear at 1g/ml