Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated

Spurfy said:
I can't tell you the mechanism because it's my discovery and it's my secret. I intend to publish on this down the road.

Sorry.
Click to expand...

Does total caffeine intake matter with this protocol? Moar caffeine moar gainz, brah?
 
MrKleen73 said:
I never knew that Var was actually the reason I was losing my appetite during the day... interested to see how this works out. Can you look this over and let me know if I missed anything.

1) Do not use an AI, [/quote]

Correct

[quote]2) Use a SERM and not tamoxifen[/quote]

Correct

[quote][B]can I ask why not tamox?[/quote]

Because it's poison

[quote]Should I use a SERM if on TRT?[/B][/quote]

Yes

[quote]3)Use Intermittent Fasting - [B]I already do this most days breaking my fast between 12:00-2:00PM[/B][/quote]

Good choice.

[quote]4) Ensuring an adequate intake of a mixed bag of high-quality cardio-protective antioxidants on cycle (mixed tocopherols, CoQ10, acetyl-L-carnitine, alpha-lipoic acid, melatonin)[/quote]

Take: 2000 iu mixed tocopherols, 200 mg CoQ10, 2000 mg acetyl-L-carnitine, 300 mg ALA, 1500 mg vitamin C, [b]once weekly[/b] with first meal. Taking after dinner is not advised, you will pee a lot after these.

Melatonin taken 2.5 mg [b]sublingually[/b] per night for entire cycle if no sleep-reducing side-effects.

[quote]5) A weekly dose of 50,000 - 100,000 iu of vitamin D + 500 mcg of vitamin K2, taken with a high-fat meal --[B] is the Vit K2 taken each day?
[/B][/quote]

D and K2 are always taken together, at the exact same time.

[quote]Dosing - full dose taken at 6:00PM every night.[/quote]

5:00 PM would also be acceptable if you're off work.

[quote]Coffee in the AM with 30mg of creatine.[/quote]

[b]Hot[/b] coffee. All of the creatine *must* dissolve completely. This is crucial. You don't have to drink it hot, the creatine will not recrystallize when the coffee temp drops.

[quote][B]Does all 30 need to be at once or can it be spread over a few cups of coffee throughout the morning, is one method preferred over the other?[/B][/quote]

Experiment and let us know, but know that the creatine must be dissolved in *caffeinated* coffee, and that you should never drink coffee within 8-12 hours of bedtime.

[quote]As far as diet - are you also doing keto dieting, or are you taking in carbs peri-workout and do you think that it matters for how your protocol works?[/quote]

I do whatever my body tells me it wants me to do on that given day -- be that eating, or lifting, fasting, or anything else. Generally, I think a carb-heavy, high protein, low fat meal after lifting on Var, is ideal. [U]Try to lift fasted on Var -- this is also key.[/U]

[quote]I was considering more of a IF / Carb back loading approach to get most of the nutrients in post workout while the anabolics were at their highest levels too.[/QUOTE]

Play around with it, just listen to your body. If it doesn't like something, it will let you know -- change it.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Click to expand...
 
Nac said:
Does total caffeine intake matter with this protocol? Moar caffeine moar gainz, brah?
Click to expand...

I was also wondering that, or more importantly since I drink a ton of coffee, is there too much caffeine? I tend to drink it from the time I wake up until I break my fast. I drink water in there too but coffee is the main beverage.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I was also wondering that, or more importantly since I drink a ton of coffee, is there too much caffeine? I tend to drink it from the time I wake up until I break my fast. I drink water in there too but coffee is the main beverage.
Click to expand...

The more caffeine (to a safe limit) on this protocol, the better, so long as you suffer no sleep disruptions, no matter how minor. Anything that disrupts sleep is terminated or postponed or mitigated during this protocol.
 
I'm bouncing out of this forum for a few months in a few days. Anything else any of you want to bounce off of me?
 
Spurfy said:
The more caffeine (to a safe limit) on this protocol, the better, so long as you suffer no sleep disruptions, no matter how minor. Anything that disrupts sleep is terminated or postponed or mitigated during this protocol.
Click to expand...

Ahh, hence the rec to stop caffeine consumption after 2pm. I thought there was some other sciencey reason.

Your inbox is full man.
 
Spurfy said:
I'm bouncing out of this forum for a few months in a few days. Anything else any of you want to bounce off of me?
Click to expand...

Your old school stuff really brings back memories!Im gonna try 30g mono again but probaly without Var.

Wish you the best in life and buisness!Have a nice bounce off!
 
Spurfy said:
Correct



Correct



Because it's poison



Yes



Good choice.



Take: 2000 iu mixed tocopherols, 200 mg CoQ10, 2000 mg acetyl-L-carnitine, 300 mg ALA, 1500 mg vitamin C, once weekly with first meal. Taking after dinner is not advised, you will pee a lot after these.

Melatonin taken 2.5 mg sublingually per night for entire cycle if no sleep-reducing side-effects.



D and K2 are always taken together, at the exact same time.



5:00 PM would also be acceptable if you're off work.



Hot coffee. All of the creatine *must* dissolve completely. This is crucial. You don't have to drink it hot, the creatine will not recrystallize when the coffee temp drops.



Experiment and let us know, but know that the creatine must be dissolved in *caffeinated* coffee, and that you should never drink coffee within 8-12 hours of bedtime.



I do whatever my body tells me it wants me to do on that given day -- be that eating, or lifting, fasting, or anything else. Generally, I think a carb-heavy, high protein, low fat meal after lifting on Var, is ideal. Try to lift fasted on Var -- this is also key.



Play around with it, just listen to your body. If it doesn't like something, it will let you know -- change it.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Click to expand...
Thanks a bunch for this! Perfectly laid out.

On the training fasted if possible, the only way I could really train fasted would be to do it first thing in the morning, 4:30-6:00AM. In your opinion would this be just as beneficial for me to train fasted in the morning then hold off on food until 12-2:00PM? If so would you recommend taking any aminos post workout or anything or just waiting a few hours.

If not then likely I will break my fast around 12-2:00PM with a decent size keto type of meal then another small one around 3:30-4:00, and then train @ 6:30-7:00PM and follow up with a carb heavy low fat meal as suggested.

Do you think one of those would produce better results with this method?

Spurfy said:
I wish I could tell you, it's f-ing brilliant.

Just follow it and you'll be happy.
Click to expand...
SWEET!!!!! I intend to!

MrKleen73 said:
I was also wondering that, or more importantly since I drink a ton of coffee, is there too much caffeine? I tend to drink it from the time I wake up until I break my fast. I drink water in there too but coffee is the main beverage.
Click to expand...

Okay so this was kind of answered in the I can't answer that one I just hadn't seen the response yet. As long as I can still have multiple cups of coffee a day I am happy! :)
 
Here, deca d1cks, I don't hate'cha, so be safe:


Amelioration of nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats by taurine: effects on steroidogenesis, redox and inflammatory cascades, and intrinsic apoptotic pathway.


"taurine attenuated nandrolone decanoate-induced poor sperm quality and testicular toxicity in rats."

Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2015 Feb 1;282(3):285-96. doi: 10.1016/j.taap.2014.12.007. Epub 2014 Dec 24.
Click to expand...
 
MrKleen73 said:
Thanks a bunch for this! Perfectly laid out.

On the training fasted if possible, the only way I could really train fasted would be to do it first thing in the morning, 4:30-6:00AM. In your opinion would this be just as beneficial for me to train fasted in the morning then hold off on food until 12-2:00PM? If so would you recommend taking any aminos post workout or anything or just waiting a few hours.
Click to expand...

Morning training is garbage, it's completely counterintuitive to your body's genetic programming. As close as you can train to dusk the best and the feed heavy immediately after. If you have to choose between morning lifting or lifting fed, choose lifting fed.

If not then likely I will break my fast around 12-2:00PM with a decent size keto type of meal then another small one around 3:30-4:00, and then train @ 6:30-7:00PM and follow up with a carb heavy low fat meal as suggested.
Click to expand...

Do what works for you. I'm glad you're an evening lifter. I can't do anything for people who can/will only lift mornings and I don't even take them as clients.

Do you think one of those would produce better results with this method?
Click to expand...

Eating nothing all day, running on caffeine and creatine, lifting at 6:30-7:00, and breaking your fast immediately after with an enormous meal is the best method. Everything else is not ideal.
 
Chados said:
I'm not sure you can patent either coffee var or creatine and you don't reveal what your gonna patent on a public forum
Click to expand...

I can patent a combination product for a certain purpose. Meaning all three ingredients can be sold separately, but not together, and not for this purpose.

Stop pretending you know everything. Start using words like, "It's my belief..." or "I think that..."

Seriously. It's annoying.
 
Spurfy said:
Morning training is garbage, it's completely counterintuitive to your body's genetic programming. As close as you can train to dusk the best and the feed heavy immediately after. If you have to choose between morning lifting or lifting fed, choose lifting fed.



Do what works for you. I'm glad you're an evening lifter. I can't do anything for people who can/will only lift mornings and I don't even take them as clients.



Eating nothing all day, running on caffeine and creatine, lifting at 6:30-7:00, and breaking your fast immediately after with an enormous meal is the best method. Everything else is not ideal.
Click to expand...

Really? Now we are talking... I really have no problems fasting 20 hours a day. I just normally do it in a bigger deficit on what I call "Burn Days."

So if I normally need 3000 calories I should just get them all post workout, but doing that and having a low fat content in that meal would be almost impossible, or does it matter at the point? I know that fat takes on average about 3 hours to enter the blood stream after ingestion, at least according to John Keifer's research. Some are faster, but in general that was about how long it took. It may have been saturated she was refering to specifically which would make sense since it is the only form of fat that can be stored without going through a conversion that doesn't happen until glycogen stores are full. . Anyway going by that the fats most likely won't even enter the system while insulin is still elevated so fat gain there would not be a worry.

Is this the same in this scenario as well?
 
MrKleen73 said:
Really? Now we are talking... I really have no problems fasting 20 hours a day. I just normally do it in a bigger deficit on what I call "Burn Days."
Click to expand...

Perfect. Var really jacks up GH, fasting pushes this even harder. The IGF-1 surge after you eat from having GH level the equivalent of running 9 iu/day will be massive.

So if I normally need 3000 calories I should just get them all post workout, but doing that and having a low fat content in that meal would be almost impossible, or does it matter at the point?
Click to expand...

Eat normally. Skip low-fat. Not needed if you're on OMAD.

I know that fat takes on average about 3 hours to enter the blood stream after ingestion, at least according to John Keifer's research. Some are faster, but in general that was about how long it took. It may have been saturated she was refering to specifically which would make sense since it is the only form of fat that can be stored without going through a conversion that doesn't happen until glycogen stores are full. . Anyway going by that the fats most likely won't even enter the system while insulin is still elevated so fat gain there would not be a worry.
Click to expand...

The reason I drop fat is for satiety purposes. I eat the high protein, high carb, low fat meal after lifting. Then another huge meal with fat an hour later.

I wouldn't worry too much about counting macros. Actually, I wouldn't do it at all. It's assuming you know better than your body what it needs. Everyone I coach gets the same speech: "Eat as much of whatever food your body tells you it wants. After 20 hours of fasting, it knows."
 
Spurfy said:
I can patent a combination product for a certain purpose. Meaning all three ingredients can be sold separately, but not together, and not for this purpose.

Stop pretending you know everything. Start using words like, "It's my belief..." or "I think that..."

Seriously. It's annoying.
Click to expand...

You can't though. And besides you have it as prescription you say so I don't think your eligible to even study with it.
 
One other thing not mentioned here. For the protocol do you recommend taking a liver supplement during the day to help recover any possible issues from the overnight dose? I know normally you do not want to take the liver supps at the same time as a methyl as it causes problems lowering the available gear. In this instance is something like that needed? I know you said it was metabolized in the kidney but since it passes through the liver first, am I right to assume there is at least some liver toxicity and taking the supplement during the day would help without lessening the dose?
 
MrKleen73 said:
One other thing not mentioned here. For the protocol do you recommend taking a liver supplement during the day to help recover any possible issues from the overnight dose? I know normally you do not want to take the liver supps at the same time as a methyl as it causes problems lowering the available gear. In this instance is something like that needed? I know you said it was metabolized in the kidney but since it passes through the liver first, am I right to assume there is at least some liver toxicity and taking the supplement during the day would help without lessening the dose?
Click to expand...

Var has zero liver toxicity.
 
Chados said:
You can't though. And besides you have it as prescription you say so I don't think your eligible to even study with it.
Click to expand...

I'm very sure you know much, much more about American patent law than my attorney, who is an American patent law attorney.
 
Spurfy said:
Var has zero liver toxicity.
Click to expand...

Now that I did not know!!!!! I knew it was considered mild but figured with it being methylated it would have some... that is good to know.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Now that I did not know!!!!! I knew it was considered mild but figured with it being methylated it would have some... that is good to know.
Click to expand...

They literally give it to alcoholics with cirrhosis to help them gain weight. It's that safe.
 
Awesome thread.
I'm sure he's got at least 6 people sending him money this week!!!
Good for him
Im not hating and I'm down to try it too.
Zero toxicity is a new one to me too.
How can a methylated product have no toxicity???
Oh I forgot its ANAVAR!!
 
I would disagree with the OP, respectfully, the therapeutic doses given for legit medical conditions are micro doses compared to what bodybuilders are taking. CIBA sold Dbol as 5 mg tabs. I’m pretty sure you could take 5 mg or even 10 for a heck of a lot longer than you could take 50! It’s very individual, what turns one persons liver into Swiss cheese, will have hardly any bearing on another. One thing is for certain, without blood monitoring, you won’t know you messed up your liver till it’s too late. If you go Jaundice before you catch it, you’re too far gone.
 
Of course it has some toxicity.
But that's the best type of con artist.
One that knows a lot about the thing he's talking about.
Literally wowed the crowed with amazing new revelations to the point where really smart dudes are willing to believe things they know are impossible.....
Like anavar having ZERO toxicity.
But we are so invested in the possibility of this miracle combo that we start to think that.....maybe its not toxic.
 
Destroying said:
I would disagree with the OP, respectfully, the therapeutic doses given for legit medical conditions are micro doses compared to what bodybuilders are taking. CIBA sold Dbol as 5 mg tabs. I’m pretty sure you could take 5 mg or even 10 for a heck of a lot longer than you could take 50! It’s very individual, what turns one persons liver into Swiss cheese, will have hardly any bearing on another. One thing is for certain, without blood monitoring, you won’t know you messed up your liver till it’s too late. If you go Jaundice before you catch it, you’re too far gone.
Click to expand...
Agreed some people can pop pills and drink vodka for 30 years and be fine.
The next guy vomits blood and dies........
 
I do have to admit its hard not like the guy.
But that the thing with really good cons.....they are likeable.
 
This is a pretty typical statement by researchers regarding oxandrolones hepatotoxicity:

Unlike other orally administered C17α-alkylated AASs, the novel chemical configuration of oxandrolone confers a resistance to liver metabolism as well as marked anabolic activity. In addition, oxandrolone appears not to exhibit the serious hepatotoxic effects (jaundice, cholestatic hepatitis, peliosis hepatis, hyperplasias and neoplasms) attributed to the C17α-alkylated AASs. Oxandrolone is reported to be generally well tolerated and the most commonly documented adverse effects are transient elevations in transaminase levels and reductions in high density lipoprotein cholesterol level
Click to expand...
 
Spurfy said:
I'm very sure you know much, much more about American patent law than my attorney, who is an American patent law attorney.
Click to expand...

Sure i come from a western country and have lived in the us. The patent I believe is world wide not only in the us first of all. Second You can't take cheese ham and bread and patent it as your sandwich. Anyone that can use anavar legally can mix it with coffee and creatine. Even if what you're saying is true which is not, nobody's gonna buy a creatine and coffee dosed var for triple the price.
 
Cgkone said:
Of course it has some toxicity.
But that's the best type of con artist.
One that knows a lot about the thing he's talking about.
Literally wowed the crowed with amazing new revelations to the point where really smart dudes are willing to believe things they know are impossible.....
Like anavar having ZERO toxicity.
But we are so invested in the possibility of this miracle combo that we start to think that.....maybe its not toxic.
Click to expand...
This is actually true though. I disagree with a lot of what spurfy preaches, but anavar having zero toxicity is true. It may actually help the liver generate new cells. Now I'm going disagree with about everything else, expect for anavar being a good mass builder.
 
rtmilburn said:
This is actually true though. I disagree with a lot of what spurfy preaches, but anavar having zero toxicity is true. It may actually help the liver generate new cells. Now I'm going disagree with about everything else, expect for anavar being a good massage builder.
Click to expand...

But can't it be liver toxic even if it's beneficial in one way to the liver? The liver has to break down the pill and when that's done the liver will produce new cells. I dont know I wouldn't use 500mg of var and drink alcohol and feeling safe. If it has no toxicity it's amazing.
 
rtmilburn said:
This is actually true though. I disagree with a lot of what spurfy preaches, but anavar having zero toxicity is true. It may actually help the liver generate new cells. Now I'm going disagree with about everything else, expect for anavar being a good massage builder.
Click to expand...
Interesting.
 
It is liver toxic, very low compared to the others, and as our bro stated it can regenerate the liver in one way... but then again, Anavar can also do a number on your kidneys. Again, 10-20 mg of Anavar is going to be way different than 80-100 mg. Anyone who thinks Anavar is non-toxic is either lying to himself/others or seriously misinformed. That also does not mean that other drugs are safer, Tylenol for example has caused more liver failure than any pharmaceutical and people aren’t aware, they pop them like candy. One Tylenol and one drink = liver failure in a small percentage of the population. Anavar is less toxic than other 17aa compounds, less toxic than even Tylenol. But the bottom line is: it’s toxic. All 17 Alpha Alkylated AAS are, delude yourself if you want.
 
Destroying said:
It is liver toxic, very low compared to the others, and as our bro stated it can regenerate the liver in one way... but then again, Anavar can also do a number on your kidneys. Again, 10-20 mg of Anavar is going to be way different than 80-100 mg. Anyone who thinks Anavar is non-toxic is either lying to himself/others or seriously misinformed.
Click to expand...

Post studies, or withdraw claims.
 
Cgkone said:
Awesome thread.
I'm sure he's got at least 6 people sending him money this week!!!
Good for him
Im not hating and I'm down to try it too.
Zero toxicity is a new one to me too.
How can a methylated product have no toxicity???
Oh I forgot its ANAVAR!!
Click to expand...

It's not about the money for me -- I am already very well paid in my profession.

I'd give all I know out for free, but I'm working on a book, and trying to get a research grant to study some new and unexplored areas of pharmacology that we in this community might benefit from. I paid a lot, a whole-f'ing-lot, for my education and my time *is* valuable.
 
Destroying said:
I would disagree with the OP, respectfully, the therapeutic doses given for legit medical conditions are micro doses compared to what bodybuilders are taking. CIBA sold Dbol as 5 mg tabs. I’m pretty sure you could take 5 mg or even 10 for a heck of a lot longer than you could take 50! It’s very individual, what turns one persons liver into Swiss cheese, will have hardly any bearing on another. One thing is for certain, without blood monitoring, you won’t know you messed up your liver till it’s too late. If you go Jaundice before you catch it, you’re too far gone.
Click to expand...

I don't recall anyone saying 100 mg DBol a day is the same as 15 mg. If you'll look at my posts, you'll see I recommend specific doses of any drug I discuss, and all of them fall well within a range generally acceptable to ensure no liver damage occurs.
 
Cgkone said:
Of course it has some toxicity.
But that's the best type of con artist.
One that knows a lot about the thing he's talking about.
Literally wowed the crowed with amazing new revelations to the point where really smart dudes are willing to believe things they know are impossible.....
Like anavar having ZERO toxicity.
But we are so invested in the possibility of this miracle combo that we start to think that.....maybe its not toxic.
Click to expand...

Anavar is legitimately prescribed to alcoholics with livers that are virtually destroyed because there is no liver toxicity. Elevated liver enzymes are not evidence of toxicity -- never have been, never will be.
 
Spurfy said:
I don't recall anyone saying 100 mg DBol a day is the same as 15 mg. If you'll look at my posts, you'll see I recommend specific doses of any drug I discuss, and all of them fall well within a range generally acceptable to ensure no liver damage occurs.
Click to expand...

I am not responding to your posts that post is directed at the OP. Are you the OP of the thread? Or just a jackass who thinks his textbook makes him immune to stupidity?
 
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