9-MBC

[Phildago55]

Let's break these down one by one.

This is an injection study which is not best for determining potential side effects from oral use due to your body's metabolism.

But they did have this to say.

"Furthermore, the compounds with appropriate substituents both at positon-3 and 9 displayed enhanced antitumor activities and decreased neurotoxi-cities simultaneously. These data suggested that (1) appropriate substituents at both position-9 and 3 of b-carboline derivatives might play a crucial role in determining their enhanced antitumor activities and decreased acute toxicities and neurotoxic effects; (2) the b-carboline derivatives have the potential to be used as antitumor drug leads."

So one of the safest and least toxic of carbolines.

What does metabolism have to do with the effect of a drug?

Most of the studies that found a positive effect were cell culture.

Either way, I'm not trying to convince you that it is 100% toxic and not to take it. What I'm saying is that the evidence suggests that it is in fact a neurotoxin.

Now, you may feel that it is not a terrible toxin, and the pros outweigh the cons.

I feel they do not. No matter the degree of toxicity, it is a known neurotoxin. It kills brain cells. The only reason I'd recommend someone take this compound is if they had Parkinson's disease. We can lose up to 90% of our dopaminergic cells before we even see deficits. Having more dopamine cells is not important enough to jeopardize the rest of your brain.

That's my opinion based on the research.

Let's cover the positive research then. What are your best three articles?

 

[NeuroTropic]

J Neurochem. 2012 Jun;121(6):924-31. doi: 10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07713.x.
9-Methyl-β-carboline-induced cognitive enhancement is associated with elevated hippocampal dopamine levels and dendritic and synaptic proliferation.

"Our results demonstrate that beyond its neuroprotective/neurorestorative and anti-inflammatory effects, 9-me-BC acts as a cognitive enhancer in a hippocampus-dependent task, and that the behavioral effects may be associated with a stimulatory impact on hippocampal dopamine levels and dendritic and synaptic proliferation."

Can't be a neurotoxin if it's neuroprotective now can it? No signs of any toxic side effects at all in this study.

 

[Phildago55]

J Neurochem. 2012 Jun;121(6):924-31. doi: 10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07713.x.
9-Methyl-β-carboline-induced cognitive enhancement is associated with elevated hippocampal dopamine levels and dendritic and synaptic proliferation.

"Our results demonstrate that beyond its neuroprotective/neurorestorative and anti-inflammatory effects, 9-me-BC acts as a cognitive enhancer in a hippocampus-dependent task, and that the behavioral effects may be associated with a stimulatory impact on hippocampal dopamine levels and dendritic and synaptic proliferation."

Can't be a neurotoxin if it's neuroprotective now can it?

This is the study that sold me at first. However the fact that it is neuroprotective of dopamine does NOT mean that it can not and will not kill other cell lines.

How about this study?

Phoneutria spider toxins block ischemia-induced glutamate release and neuronal death of cell layers of the retina.


Yeah, neurotoxins are often neuroprotective. It does not mean the net effect will be positive

 

[NeuroTropic]

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


9-methyl-b-carboline exhibits multimodal effects that could be beneficial in the treatment of PD.

It has many positive effects can may treat a neurodegenerative disease.

It shows stimulatory effects to dopaminergic neurons by increasing the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase and its transcription factors in pre-existing dopa decarboxylase immunoreactive neurons.

It increases the enzymes you use to make more dopamine on your own.

Furthermore, 9-methyl-b-carboline has emerged as a substance with the rare property of a protective and regenerative/restorative potential for dopaminergic neurons by inducing gene expression of several neurotrophic factors and decreasing apoptotic cell signals.

It's neuro protective and regenerative for dopamine producing brain cells and works by genetically increasing levels of neurorepairing brain chemicals and protecting against cellular death chemicals.


It reduces protein levels of a-synuclein and inhibits monoamine oxidase A and B. Finally, 9-methyl-b-carboline acts on multiple targets in the inflammatory cascade by inhibiting the proliferation of microglia, by decreasing chemotactic cytokines and by creating an anti-inflammatory environment in the CNS.

Blocks inflammation in the brain by reducing inflammatory immune proteins.

 

[Phildago55]

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


9-methyl-b-carboline exhibits multimodal effects that could be beneficial in the treatment of PD.

It has many positive effects can may treat a neurodegenerative disease.

It shows stimulatory effects to dopaminergic neurons by increasing the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase and its transcription factors in pre-existing dopa decarboxylase immunoreactive neurons.

It increases the enzymes you use to make more dopamine on your own.

Furthermore, 9-methyl-b-carboline has emerged as a substance with the rare property of a protective and regenerative/restorative potential for dopaminergic neurons by inducing gene expression of several neurotrophic factors and decreasing apoptotic cell signals.

It's neuro protective and regenerative for dopamine producing brain cells and works by genetically increasing levels of neurorepairing brain chemicals and protecting against cellular death chemicals.


It reduces protein levels of a-synuclein and inhibits monoamine oxidase A and B. Finally, 9-methyl-b-carboline acts on multiple targets in the inflammatory cascade by inhibiting the proliferation of microglia, by decreasing chemotactic cytokines and by creating an anti-inflammatory environment in the CNS.

Blocks inflammation in the brain by reducing inflammatory immune proteins.

I have not denied the effects on dopaminergic cells.

Dopamine is a neuromodulator, meaning it helps regulate brain activity but does not directly drive it. You can lose up to almost 90% without experiencing deficits. It's not important enough to ingest a substance that is toxic to the neurons that actually drive brain activity.

 

[NeuroTropic]

Here it is as clear cut as it can be for you.

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


"Even when 9-me-BC was administered chronically, it exerted no neurotoxic effects."

 

[Phildago55]

Here it is as clear cut as it can be for you.

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


"Even when 9-me-BC was administered chronically, it exerted no neurotoxic effects."

I need to look at that in detail. What is their measure of neurotoxic effects? Did they look at all cell lines? Was it just dopamine cells?

Are you taking this stuff?

 

[NeuroTropic]

ordered a bottle. thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Supercellular]

Predator should send neurotropic a free bottle I reckon with his defense work here on 9-MBC.

As for me, I’m enjoying the slap downs of redman24 and his latest alter ego. Dude don’t know when to quit.

 

[PredNutrition]

Predator should send neurotropic a free bottle I reckon with his defense work here on 9-MBC.

As for me, I’m enjoying the slap downs of redman24 and his latest alter ego. Dude don’t know when to quit.

NeuroTropic drop me a PM and i'll see what i can do. Thanks for your posts in this thread

 

[NeuroTropic]

I've seen that Predator has a new nootropic out that they are saying is a dopaminergic called 9-MBC (9-methyl beta-carboline)


Does anyone here have any experience of this or can shed some light on how it might work for someone looking to enhance dopamine output consistently (both DA 1 and DA 2 receptors)?

It genetically and otherwise makes you produce more dopamine and increases new neurons or brain cells that makes dopamine, while increasing neuro supportive and repairing chemicals. It would not work on the dopamine receptors directly (such as an agonist) more increase dopamine levels to stimulate those and other receptors. It's ideal to have higher levels of Dopamine, Phenylethylamine, and lower levels of MAO-B as you age to stay mentally sharp and fight against brain aging (mental decline). This is a new novel way to approach that.

 

[Jiigzz]

Here it is as clear cut as it can be for you.

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


"Even when 9-me-BC was administered chronically, it exerted no neurotoxic effects."

Edit: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968089604004833

The compound seems very interesting

 

[myuniverse1]

Expert Rev Neurother. 2011 Jun;11(6):845-60. doi: 10.1586/ern.11.1.
Stimulation, protection and regeneration of dopaminergic neurons by 9-methyl-β-carboline: a new anti-Parkinson drug?


9-methyl-b-carboline exhibits multimodal effects that could be beneficial in the treatment of PD.

It has many positive effects can may treat a neurodegenerative disease.

It shows stimulatory effects to dopaminergic neurons by increasing the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase and its transcription factors in pre-existing dopa decarboxylase immunoreactive neurons.

It increases the enzymes you use to make more dopamine on your own.

Furthermore, 9-methyl-b-carboline has emerged as a substance with the rare property of a protective and regenerative/restorative potential for dopaminergic neurons by inducing gene expression of several neurotrophic factors and decreasing apoptotic cell signals.

It's neuro protective and regenerative for dopamine producing brain cells and works by genetically increasing levels of neurorepairing brain chemicals and protecting against cellular death chemicals.


It reduces protein levels of a-synuclein and inhibits monoamine oxidase A and B. Finally, 9-methyl-b-carboline acts on multiple targets in the inflammatory cascade by inhibiting the proliferation of microglia, by decreasing chemotactic cytokines and by creating an anti-inflammatory environment in the CNS.

Blocks inflammation in the brain by reducing inflammatory immune proteins.

I just gotta say, you guys are smart as hell. I don't understand half the stuff you guys are even talking about, but it's badass to research.

 

[NeuroTropic]

Edit: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968089604004833

The compound seems very interesting

in vitro studies (studies on not living animals) don't always hold up in animal research. It's why they moved on to animal research and plan to do human studies.

 

[Jiigzz]

in vitro studies (studies on not living animals) don't always hold up in animal research. It's why they moved on to animal research and plan to do human studies.

I'm more than aware of how research works, lol.

For the record, the text also has data for in vivo pertaining to b-carboline derivatives: The present investigation reported for the first time that β-carboline derivatives had significant antitumor activities in mice bearing Lewis lung cancer and Sarcoma 180 but also exhibited remarkable acute neurotoxicity in experimental mice models..

The above doesn't refer to the compound specifically, as the cytotoxicity of b-carbolines depends on the location of substituents present in the b-carboline ring which has already been discussed.

It seems like 9-MBC has (one of the) lowest toxicity out of those tested in this group, but it still bears a mention.

There is interesting data on it and photo-sensitization as well.

I wonder if someone like Synapsin has any information on it.

 

[Drakee]

my bottle should arrive tomorrow. very excited.

 

[Phildago55]

I'm more than aware of how research works, lol.

For the record, the text also has data for in vivo pertaining to b-carboline derivatives: The present investigation reported for the first time that β-carboline derivatives had significant antitumor activities in mice bearing Lewis lung cancer and Sarcoma 180 but also exhibited remarkable acute neurotoxicity in experimental mice models..

The above doesn't refer to the compound specifically, as the cytotoxicity of b-carbolines depends on the location of substituents present in the b-carboline ring which has already been discussed.

It seems like 9-MBC has (one of the) lowest toxicity out of those tested in this group, but it still bears a mention.

There is interesting data on it and photo-sensitization as well.

I wonder if someone like Synapsin has any information on it.

The jury is still out on it. We need some studies that look at the toxicity of this specific coplmpound on a heterogeneous cell sample

 

[muscleupcrohn]

The jury is still out on it. We need some studies that look at the toxicity of this specific coplmpound on a heterogeneous cell sample

Or a safety study using humans haha. And more rodent studies wouldn’t be a bad thing either, even if they’re not ideal evaluations, they’re logical steps to be taken.

 

[Phildago55]

Or a safety study using humans haha. And more rodent studies wouldn’t be a bad thing either, even if they’re not ideal evaluations, they’re logical steps to be taken.

Yeah lol, sadly we're a few years away from running tests on healthy human subjects. You're right though, some well constructed rodent studies would be nice. I'd just like to know the degree of toxicity. It's not worth the dopaminergic effects if there is a net loss of neural cells

 

[PredNutrition]

Here is a post from the formulator for this Hydrapharm product in response to some of the questions here.

As for Redman24/Phildago, does anyone know who is this guy?

As Eliezar Yudkowsky recently wrote:
"Consider Isaiah Berlin’s distinction between “hedgehogs” (who rely more on theories, models, global beliefs) and “foxes” (who rely more on data, observations, local beliefs). Most see the fox’s mindset as more admirable than the hedgehog’s, on the basis that it has greater immunity to fantasy and dogmatism."

"Phildago55" is a hedgehog, who has convinced himself of his own theory that all beta carbolines are neurotoxic.

Neurotropic is a fox, who has uncovered and comprehended the data which shows that 9MBC is not neurotoxic, but, to the contrary, is neuroprotective.

From the short review entitled "Good guys in a shady family", DOI 10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07708.x

"However, effects of b-carbolines seem to be highly dependent on modifying substituents, providing a promising potential for the design of useful synthetic analogs of natural substances by rearing good guys in the shady b-carboline family (Fig. 1). For example, unlike 2-methyl-b-carboline or 2,9-dimethyl-b-carboline, 9-methyl-b-carboline demonstrated neuroprotective effect in an animal model of Parkinson’s disease, improving the effectiveness of the respiratory chain and promoting the transcription and expression of neurotrophin-related genes (Wernicke et al. 2010)."

"The data presented by Gruss et al. (2012) not only convincingly show the cognitive enhancing properties of 9-methyl-carboline and disclose their supposed mechanisms, but also significantly expand the potential use of 9-methyl-carboline for prevention and correction of cognitive decline in a wide variety of cerebral pathologies and, in particular, different neurodegenerative diseases."

To reiterate: The title "good guys in a shady family" refers to the fact that although most beta-carbolines are neurotoxic, there are a subset, which includes 9MBC, that are just the opposite.

Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that beta-carbolines, which includes 9-MBC, are substances which are endogenous to mammals and widespread throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. They are found in food, and in very high quantities in dried tobacco and cigarette smoke, so there's provably a degree of daily exposure to them.

 

[PredNutrition]

Oh and Neurotropic - hit us up, we can definitely credit you a bottle on the back of your sterling work defending this ingredient.

 

[Phildago55]

Here is a post from the formulator for this Hydrapharm product in response to some of the questions here.

As for Redman24/Phildago, does anyone know who is this guy?

As Eliezar Yudkowsky recently wrote:
"Consider Isaiah Berlin’s distinction between “hedgehogs” (who rely more on theories, models, global beliefs) and “foxes” (who rely more on data, observations, local beliefs). Most see the fox’s mindset as more admirable than the hedgehog’s, on the basis that it has greater immunity to fantasy and dogmatism."

"Phildago55" is a hedgehog, who has convinced himself of his own theory that all beta carbolines are neurotoxic.

Neurotropic is a fox, who has uncovered and comprehended the data which shows that 9MBC is not neurotoxic, but, to the contrary, is neuroprotective.

From the short review entitled "Good guys in a shady family", DOI 10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07708.x

"However, effects of b-carbolines seem to be highly dependent on modifying substituents, providing a promising potential for the design of useful synthetic analogs of natural substances by rearing good guys in the shady b-carboline family (Fig. 1). For example, unlike 2-methyl-b-carboline or 2,9-dimethyl-b-carboline, 9-methyl-b-carboline demonstrated neuroprotective effect in an animal model of Parkinson’s disease, improving the effectiveness of the respiratory chain and promoting the transcription and expression of neurotrophin-related genes (Wernicke et al. 2010)."

"The data presented by Gruss et al. (2012) not only convincingly show the cognitive enhancing properties of 9-methyl-carboline and disclose their supposed mechanisms, but also significantly expand the potential use of 9-methyl-carboline for prevention and correction of cognitive decline in a wide variety of cerebral pathologies and, in particular, different neurodegenerative diseases."

To reiterate: The title "good guys in a shady family" refers to the fact that although most beta-carbolines are neurotoxic, there are a subset, which includes 9MBC, that are just the opposite.

Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that beta-carbolines, which includes 9-MBC, are substances which are endogenous to mammals and widespread throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. They are found in food, and in very high quantities in dried tobacco and cigarette smoke, so there's provably a degree of daily exposure to them.

I'm a practicing research scientist. Im a patch clamp electrophysiologist and specialize in Parkinson's disease. Specifically I study midbrain dopamine and have a side study on cholinergic cells in the striatum.

I have a bachelor's in biology, a masters in behavioral neuroscience and am currently working on my PhD in Neurophysiology.

Those are my credentials. I can tell you right now, NeuroTropic has an extremely shallow understanding of how compounds like this may function in the brain. He speaks in absolutes and is WAY to sure of whatever idea he extrapolated from studies.

Redman is another amateur. In his posts he actually did demonstrate more knowledge than NeuroTropic, except NeuroTropic was aggressive enough at bashing him to overwhelm him. I'm not quite sure where he came up with the fact that 9-mbc causes excitotoxicity since there is no evidence for that, but it's not a terrible guess considering the fact that over-excitability does kill cells rapidly. However, 9-mbc appears to interfere with gene transcription and mitochondrial function.

This is why it protects against the effects of mptp, and also why it can be a dopaminergic progenitor. Disappointingly it is also what gives it the potential to be neurotoxic.

I had only skimmed the research on it before coming into this thread. It looked exciting and I asked a few very basic questions. Questions that frustrated NeuroTropic, exposing him as the poser he is. So, I did some reading on the topic, and I am absolutely not convinced it is safe.

Could it be safe? Sure. But not one single study had demonstrated this in any other cell type besides mid brain dopamine. There are plenty of toxins out there that are specific to cell lines, and there are also substances that can kill you despite the fact that they show regenerative properties specific to cell lines.

An example is Shh. I am looking at how shh can protect against and possibly help people recover from Parkinson's disease. While the agonist for this receptor does show promise in the striatum, there is a possible side effect of cancer and its not a small chance of occurrence.

Another factor to consider is the lack of benefit you will get from increasing dopamine. If you don't have defecits you may see transitory effects, however they will not be permanent. The dopamine system rapidly adapts and solely exists to modulate neurotransmossion.

Why would someone use a possibly dangerous chemical to receive no net benefit?

I know predetor wants to sell bottles and NeuroTropic wants his bottle. But this is unethical. The exposure to extremely low levels in toxins in everyday life doesn't justify dosing those same toxins. Nor does that indicate any level of safety. There are tons of toxins that we are exposed to daily that are well bellow the threshold for being dangerous, but that doesn't mean we should take a supplemental dose of them.

Just think before you buy this. I can garuntee you two things. 1. This will not make any long term difference in your Cognitive abilities, and any short term benefit will be minimal. 2. If you end up with a net loss, you'll regret it.

If you have a prolactin issue take some mucuna Purines. If you have adhd see a doctor. If you don't have any issues just enjoy life because you're lucky.

 

[kisaj]

We have no way of knowing about any credentials someone says they have, but I have been questioning the point of 9-mbc myself and cannot find anything that leads me to believe it is worth spending the money on or that benefits that would be experienced. So, I am in agreement with much of the above post.

 

[Phildago55]

We have no way of knowing about any credentials someone says they have, but I have been questioning the point of 9-mbc myself and cannot find anything that leads me to believe it is worth spending the money on or that benefits that would be experienced. So, I am in agreement with much of the above post.

Thats true. I try to refrain from making an argument from authority, especially when it's not even verifiable. They asked who I was though, and I needed to elaborate.

 

[NeuroTropic]

We have no way of knowing about any credentials someone says they have, but I have been questioning the point of 9-mbc myself and cannot find anything that leads me to believe it is worth spending the money on or that benefits that would be experienced. So, I am in agreement with much of the above post.

If the decline of your dopamine producing neurons leading to lower mood, sex drive, brain aging, and numerous other factors associated with lower dopamine levels and neurotrophic factors does not concern you then this is not for you.

 

[Phildago55]

Its also not for 90% of people who have those symptoms. You listed symptoms that could apply to almost anyone, and that everybody experiences at some point. Symptoms that could be caused by a deficit in almost any hormone, neurotransmitter or organ. Hell, if you had liver problems you'd experience those symptoms.

Blaming the loss of dopamine for these things is again unproven. Yes, you would experience these symptoms of you had low dopamine, but increasing dopamine isn't the cure all for the worried well.

 

[NeuroTropic]

Here is a post from the formulator for this Hydrapharm product in response to some of the questions here.

As for Redman24/Phildago, does anyone know who is this guy?

As Eliezar Yudkowsky recently wrote:
"Consider Isaiah Berlin’s distinction between “hedgehogs” (who rely more on theories, models, global beliefs) and “foxes” (who rely more on data, observations, local beliefs). Most see the fox’s mindset as more admirable than the hedgehog’s, on the basis that it has greater immunity to fantasy and dogmatism."

"Phildago55" is a hedgehog, who has convinced himself of his own theory that all beta carbolines are neurotoxic.

Neurotropic is a fox, who has uncovered and comprehended the data which shows that 9MBC is not neurotoxic, but, to the contrary, is neuroprotective.

From the short review entitled "Good guys in a shady family", DOI 10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07708.x

"However, effects of b-carbolines seem to be highly dependent on modifying substituents, providing a promising potential for the design of useful synthetic analogs of natural substances by rearing good guys in the shady b-carboline family (Fig. 1). For example, unlike 2-methyl-b-carboline or 2,9-dimethyl-b-carboline, 9-methyl-b-carboline demonstrated neuroprotective effect in an animal model of Parkinson’s disease, improving the effectiveness of the respiratory chain and promoting the transcription and expression of neurotrophin-related genes (Wernicke et al. 2010)."

"The data presented by Gruss et al. (2012) not only convincingly show the cognitive enhancing properties of 9-methyl-carboline and disclose their supposed mechanisms, but also significantly expand the potential use of 9-methyl-carboline for prevention and correction of cognitive decline in a wide variety of cerebral pathologies and, in particular, different neurodegenerative diseases."

To reiterate: The title "good guys in a shady family" refers to the fact that although most beta-carbolines are neurotoxic, there are a subset, which includes 9MBC, that are just the opposite.

Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that beta-carbolines, which includes 9-MBC, are substances which are endogenous to mammals and widespread throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. They are found in food, and in very high quantities in dried tobacco and cigarette smoke, so there's provably a degree of daily exposure to them.

Not to mention coffee one the most popular drinks in the world contains beta carbolines.

"Norharman was the major beta-carboline alkaloid in brewed coffee at levels up to 9.34 microg g(-1) in instant ground coffee compared with harman, which had levels up to 1.67 microg g(-1). The two beta-carbolines appeared to be formed during roasting of the coffee beans."

DON'T DRINK COFFEE IT'S A NEUROTOXIN SOLELY BECAUSE IT HAS BETA CARBOLINES. Give me a ****ing break. The amounts are obviously not high enough even with chronic exposure to cause any brain damage. We would have seen that by now as a serious side effect of coffee.

Some people see a few test tube studies that shown toxic effects and think it's toxic. Despite all the animal research proving the exactly opposite. So you can go off test tubes studies or animal research. I'm sticking with the animal research. It's up to the consumer do decide if they think the benefits can outweigh the risk of anything they intake. Mcdonald's, alcohol, tobacco, or analogs or derivatives of natural chemicals with strikingly positive antiaging or cognitive enhancing effects.

Some people are like cali and think nearly every chemical causes cancer. **** those people it's not a rational approach to live. If they actually measured the toxins in drinking water, air, and foods I'm sure they would become a breatharian.

Thanks PredNutrition.

 

[Phildago55]

Not to mention coffee one the most popular drinks in the world contains beta carbolines.

"Norharman was the major beta-carboline alkaloid in brewed coffee at levels up to 9.34 microg g(-1) in instant ground coffee compared with harman, which had levels up to 1.67 microg g(-1). The two beta-carbolines appeared to be formed during roasting of the coffee beans."

DON'T DRINK COFFEE IT'S A NEUROTOXIN SOLELY BECAUSE IT HAS BETA CARBOLINES. Give me a ****ing break. The amounts are obviously not high enough even with chronic exposure to cause any brain damage. We would have seen that by now as a serious side effect of coffee.

Some people see a few test tube studies that shown toxic effects and think it's toxic. Despite all the animal research proving the exactly opposite. So you can go off test tubes studies or animal research. I'm sticking with the animal research. It's up to the consumer do decide if they think the benefits can outweigh the risk of anything they intake. Mcdonald's, alcohol, tobacco, or analogs or derivatives of natural chemicals with strikingly positive antiaging or cognitive enhancing effects.

Some people are like cali and think nearly every chemical causes cancer. **** those people it's not a rational approach to live. If they actually measured the toxins in drinking water, air, and foods I'm sure they would become a breatharians.

Thanks PredNutrition.

you're extrapolating once again. "Don't drink coffee because of the low, inactive concentration of beta Carbolines"

You must be clueless about the concepts of active concentration and threshold for activity

 

[NeuroTropic]

Oh and Neurotropic - hit us up, we can definitely credit you a bottle on the back of your sterling work defending this ingredient.

It would be a pleasure to try this novel nootropic out. Pm inbound.

 

[NeuroTropic]

J Psychoactive Drugs. 2017 Jan-Mar;49(1):1-10. doi: 10.1080/02791072.2016.1260189. Epub 2016 Dec 5.
Effects of the Natural β-Carboline Alkaloid Harmine, a Main Constituent of Ayahuasca, in Memory and in the Hippocampus: A Systematic Literature Review of Preclinical Studies.


Harmine is a natural β-carboline alkaloid found in several botanical species, such as the Banisteriopsis caapi vine used in the preparation of the hallucinogenic beverage ayahuasca and the seeds of Syrian rue (Peganum harmala). Preclinical studies suggest that harmine may have neuroprotective and cognitive-enhancing effects, and retrospective/observational investigations of the mental health of long-term ayahuasca users suggest that prolonged use of this harmine-rich hallucinogen is associated with better neuropsychological functioning. Thus, in order to better investigate these possibilities, we performed a systematic literature review of preclinical studies analyzing the effects of harmine on hippocampal neurons and in memory-related behavioral tasks in animal models. We found two studies involving hippocampal cell cultures and nine studies using animal models. Harmine administration was associated with neuroprotective effects such as reduced excitotoxicity, inflammation, and oxidative stress, and increased brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) levels. Harmine also improved memory/learning in several animal models. These effects seem be mediated by monoamine oxidase or acetylcholinesterase inhibition, upregulation of glutamate transporters, decreases in reactive oxygen species, increases in neurotrophic factors, and anti-inflammatory effects.

 

[PredNutrition]

Your posting style is almost identical to Redman's, and you happen to show up just after he left. Isn't that interesting?

> Could it be safe? Sure. But not one single study had demonstrated this in any other cell type besides mid brain dopamine.

The studies have done better than that. The compound has been repeatedly tested in animal models, where the animals who received it exhibited no signs of neurotoxicity, but just the opposite. Again, "9-methyl-b-carboline demonstrated neuroprotective effect in an animal model of Parkinson’s disease, improving the effectiveness of the respiratory chain and promoting the transcription and expression of neurotrophin-related genes."


> An example is Shh. I am looking at how shh can protect against and possibly help people recover from Parkinson's disease. While the agonist for this receptor does show promise in the striatum, there is a possible side effect of cancer and its not a small chance of occurrence.

We are familiar with SHH, WNT, and the rest of them. This is not a relevant "example." It wouldn't be relevant in any case, but without any information on what this SHH agonist is, how it differs from 9-MBC, what the benefits are, and how it impacts the odds of developing cancer, it's almost laughable. And bringing up cancer, of all things, where there's absolutely no evidence that 9-MBC causes cancer -- and, in fact, there seems to be no evidence that any beta-carboline is associated with brain cancer -- is an argument from bad faith.


> Another factor to consider is the lack of benefit you will get from increasing dopamine. If you don't have defecits you may see transitory effects, however they will not be permanent. The dopamine system rapidly adapts and solely exists to modulate neurotransmossion.

Oh, come on. What benefit from increasing dopamine -- and not just increasing dopamine levels, but strengthening and reinforcing the entire dopamine production network in the brain? I'm surprised that a neurochemist PHD would miss the point that it doesn't merely increase dopamine, and that it had much broader (and more positive) effects.


You're not getting it, you've misrepresented your case with that SHH example, you're arguing in bad faith by bringing up cancer despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the topic at-hand, and you should read the studies we posted on 9-MBC with a more open mind.

 

[Supercellular]

I love how a guy who is getting pwned every time he posts continues to make fallacious arguments.

Redman24 - Can’t you just **** off as I’m sure I speak for the majority when I say nobody wants to hear your **** any longer

 

[Jiigzz]

Not to mention coffee one the most popular drinks in the world contains beta carbolines.

"Norharman was the major beta-carboline alkaloid in brewed coffee at levels up to 9.34 microg g(-1) in instant ground coffee compared with harman, which had levels up to 1.67 microg g(-1). The two beta-carbolines appeared to be formed during roasting of the coffee beans."

DON'T DRINK COFFEE IT'S A NEUROTOXIN SOLELY BECAUSE IT HAS BETA CARBOLINES. Give me a ****ing break. The amounts are obviously not high enough even with chronic exposure to cause any brain damage. We would have seen that by now as a serious side effect of coffee.

Some people see a few test tube studies that shown toxic effects and think it's toxic. Despite all the animal research proving the exactly opposite. So you can go off test tubes studies or animal research. I'm sticking with the animal research. It's up to the consumer do decide if they think the benefits can outweigh the risk of anything they intake. Mcdonald's, alcohol, tobacco, or analogs or derivatives of natural chemicals with strikingly positive antiaging or cognitive enhancing effects.

Some people are like cali and think nearly every chemical causes cancer. **** those people it's not a rational approach to live. If they actually measured the toxins in drinking water, air, and foods I'm sure they would become a breatharian.

Thanks PredNutrition.

Nice slippery soap argument. Just because an ingredient is harmful at one dosage doesn't make it harmful at another.
That's like saying; "apples will kill you because they contain cyanide".

I'm not even saying that it isn't safe because I dont care enough to read more on it, but you can't call out someone for a bad argument then make one yourself.

In saying that, without evidence showing this toxicity, it's hard to know if the argument against it is actually based in research and not just in vitro experiments

 

[NeuroTropic]

Nice slippery soap argument. Just because an ingredient is harmful at one dosage doesn't make it harmful at another.
That's like saying; "apples will kill you because they contain cyanide".

I'm not even saying that it isn't safe because I dont care enough to read more on it, but you can't call out someone for a bad argument then make one yourself.

In saying that, without evidence showing this toxicity, it's hard to know if the argument against it is actually based in research and not just in vitro experiments

You can overdose on near anything. But thus far the animal research supports it being safe and having benefits. No animal research has shown any issues.

 

[Jiigzz]

You can overdose on near anything. But thus far the animal research supports it being safe and having benefits. No animal research has shown any issues.

Yeah, id like to see this counter evidence actually backed up

 

[NeuroTropic]

Here's a summary.


9-Methyl-9B-Carboline CAS 2521-07-5
IUPAC NAME : 9-methylpyrido[3,4-β]indole
CHEMICAL FORMULA : C12H10N2
MOLECULAR WEIGHT : 182,221207 Da
CAS N° : 2521-07-5

DOSE :

- in vitro : 25 to 100 µM (better 50 µM on a prolonged period)
- on rats : ip (intraperitoneal) 0.105 mg/kg/day with 2.5 µl/h . unknown dose for other routes
- on humans : ip 0.017 mg/kg/day = 1.2 mg/day for a person of 70 kg .

Future Human Trials Anticipated Protocols and Potentials:

Oral dose arms of 10mg, 20mg, and 40mg are anticipated to have efficacy for clean and moderate stimulation, focus, mood-elevation, and dopaminergic neuroprotection and enhancement. Sublingual doses may be trialed and are anticipated to be at 50% of the oral dosages.

POSSIBLE EFFECTS :

- enhances mood
- enhances cognition, learning and memory (both working and long term)
- enhances spatial memory and the movements
- neuroprotective ( especially in the hippocampus and the midbrain, and against PD - parkinson's disease )
- neuroregenerative ( especially in the hippocampus and the midbrain, and against PD )

MECHANISM OF ACTION :

- up-regulates, differentiates and protects dopaminergic neurons, dendrities and synapses, especially in the substantia nigra of the midbrain and in the hippocampus [1][2][6][7]
- increases dopamine synthesis [1][7]
- increases neurotrophins/neurotrophic factors (NGF, BDNF, CDNF [6], GDNF, SHH [5]) and decrease apoptic signals [6] (like caspase-3) [2]
- decreases inflammation, preventing microglia proliferation and chemokine release [4], protecting against lipopolysaccharide toxicity [5] and reducing LDH [2][6] (lactate dehydrogenase) [7] reduces α-synuclein [4][5], the aggregation of which form insoluble fibrils (like lewy bodies), one of the causes of some neurodegenerative disorders, like PD and AD (alzheimer's disease)
- increase TH [6] (tyrosine hydroxylase) expression and its transcription factors, and interacts with tyrosine kinases [4][5][7]. TH converts L-tyrosine to L-Dopa, needed for the synthesis of the catecholamines, especially dopamine
- MAO-B inhibition [3], preventing the formation of neurotoxic substances, like DOPAC (from the dopamine metabolization), 6-OH-DA (oxydopamine), and MPDP⁺/MPP⁺ (from MPTP), the major cause of dopaminergic neurons death
- increases/protects/recovers the NADH dehydrogenase (or "complex I" [6] which catalyzes the transfer of electrons between NADH and Co-Q10), enhancing the mithocondrial respiration chain [7]
- increase ATP [6]

SIDE EFFECTS :

- photo-sensitivity (DNA damage after UVA rays exposure) [8][9][10]
- dopamine neurotoxicity with quantities over the maximum recommended [6]

LINKS :

[1] https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_01lUL0-VEwd0pKbVp3dW5US1E/edit?pli=1
[2] http://www.researchgate.net/publication/5932301_9-Methyl-beta-carboline_up-regulates_the_appearance_of_differentiated_dopaminergic_neurones_in_primary_mesencephalic_culture (view the full text)
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21554916
[4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21651332
[5] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06725.x/full
[6] https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_01lUL0-VEwdEtURnVoNWxTdUE/edit?pli=1
[7] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07713.x/pdf
[8] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842892
[9] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19705259
[10] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536642

 

[barrettv]

So does this stuff work? How dows it compare to say noopept or phenylpiracetam?

 

[Phildago55]

You can overdose on near anything. But thus far the animal research supports it being safe and having benefits. No animal research has shown any issues.

There's been one animal study...

 

[NeuroTropic]

So does this stuff work? How dows it compare to say noopept or phenylpiracetam?

Far superior.

 

[Jiigzz]

There's been one animal study...

lol.

 

[NeuroTropic]

There's been one animal study...

There's more than 1 animal study. You have no idea how to even look up how many animal studies there are redman.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Far superior.

I understand that the animal research may be promising, but can we really say that it’s “far superior” to other nootropics that we have more (any really) research showing effectiveness in humans? Perhaps it has the potential/promise to be superior, but I wouldn’t say anything so conclusive given the lack of human studies.

 

[NeuroTropic]

I understand that the animal research may be promising, but can we really say that it’s “far superior” to other nootropics that we have more (any really) research showing effectiveness in humans? Perhaps it has the potential/promise to be superior, but I wouldn’t say anything so conclusive given the lack of human studies.

I'm referring to it's mode of action being superior. He asked how it worked and how they compare.

I'm using it so I can compare them head on. You can wait a lifetime for more studies (there isn't that many for noopept or phenylpiracetam) or try it and determine for yourself if it's worth it. No one is being forced to take this. There are also millions of chemicals in food that's never been studied by itself in humans...I'm not really worried about them.

 

[jarrellt67]

I'm referring to it's mode of action being superior. He asked how it worked and how they compare.

I'm using it so I can compare them head on. You can wait a lifetime for more studies (there isn't that many for noopept or phenylpiracetam) or try it and determine for yourself if it's worth it. No one is being forced to take this. There are also millions of chemicals in food that's never been studied by itself in humans...I'm not really worried about them.

What are you thoughts so far? I've only been taking it for a couple days (15 mg/day) and while I notice an initial slight increase in mood/energy (could be placebo since that's what I was expecting to feel), within a couple hours that changes to very tired/sleepy and irritable.

 

[Phildago55]

lol.

Have you actually read the studies? One single study has been done looking at the effect of this compound on spatial learning in rats. The rest were all in vitro

Its really amazing how high and mighty ignorance can make people.

 

[Phildago55]

Unsubscribed. It's sad to see the lemmings go, but we are all adults here. Put whatever waste of money/possibly dangerous thing you want into your bodies.

 

[kisaj]

I realize you're newer here and I actually agree with your comments half the time, but if you look around, people on here are putting everything into their bodies looking for an edge. This is hardly a blip in the big picture.

 

[NeuroTropic]

What are you thoughts so far? I've only been taking it for a couple days (15 mg/day) and while I notice an initial slight increase in mood/energy (could be placebo since that's what I was expecting to feel), within a couple hours that changes to very tired/sleepy and irritable.

30 mg is where's it's at. I definitely notice an effect at 15 but I'm also experienced in dopaminergic (deprenyl, AA, L-DOPA, dopamine 2 agonists, dopamind, etc) so it takes a potent chemical to make any noticeable effect. So far I like it's effects alot. Let's see if long term use will have a more potent effect on cognition. I see a strong boost in mood, a moderate focus kick like ritalin light, and some obviously signs of elevated dopamine.

 

[Phildago55]

I realize you're newer here and I actually agree with your comments half the time, but if you look around, people on here are putting everything into their bodies looking for an edge. This is hardly a blip in the big picture.

They are. However, if people are taking something liver toxic other user will flame the hell out of them if they refuse to take liver support. If someone is using an anabolic, theyd be destroyed by other users if they didn't use a SERM.

I've taken some harsh compounds to get an edge, but at least I knew what I was getting myself into. For most users this is true, but it's not true for this compound. People don't actually know much about it because no one does..

And just to clarify. It's not that I have a problem with people wanting an edge and making the decision to take this, or anything else. What I have an issue with is people who are trying to make definitive statements regarding safety and efficacy.

 

[NeuroTropic]

Have you actually read the studies? One single study has been done looking at the effect of this compound on spatial learning in rats. The rest were all in vitro

Its really amazing how high and mighty ignorance can make people.

Spreading lies and misinformation. There's more than 1 animal study on 9-MBC.