rtmilburn
Well-known member
For sure.
The New Product Release Thread
- Thread starter The Solution
- Start date
Sparkss
Well-known member
I have done that before, buying the raws and making my own. The only way to guarantee an even dispersal (in my experience doing it at home) is to make up individual servings. It was a PITA and I just buy the commercial pres and add in whatever ingredients I feel are lacking. The savings were just not worth the time IMO. but if you have (a lot) more time than money and care about the bottom line, then yea, that is one way to go.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Yes I can agree with your underlying message but I believe you are starting to go down a logical fallacy of a slippery slope.
I think we can both agree that there's a lot of ingredients that human dosing and efficacy have not been established. And there are not many companies who have the capital to pay for clinical studies. So for many of these compounds how do we decide dosing? We take the best information we have, whether that be animal studies or in vitro studies. And both of these studies do not always correlate to the same effects in the human body because there are so many factors.
On our website checkout page, one must click and agree on a liability release form before being able to check our. DMAA can absolutely be an unsafe product if taken at very high doses, but at the same time we've all seen or watched videos of people doing 2 scoops of Mesomorph (for example) which has the about the same amount of DMAA in 1 scoop of blood shot.
With all due respect I think the statement "if you cannot guarantee its safety, why are you dosing outside those ranges?" is a simplified statement of a much larger issue. Everyone has a different body chemistry , there is no way we can guarantee x,y,z for everyone. If someone already has a pre-existing heart condition then DMAA would be more dangerous to them.
We are also trying to brand ourselves more as a hardcore company, if every supplements company only used well studies ingredients and only dosed within studied dosages, we'd never see any innovation. Maybe our points of view differ because of this reason, we want to push the envelope with supplements , instead of seeing the same hashed out formulations over and over.
Right now we do not believe that there is significant evidence to prove than any of our supplements taken with proper usage will cause significant harm to a health adult. If anyone believes otherwise, the onus is on them to prove that it does.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
See my issues is sourcing raws. I don't me buying individual ingredients from a supp companies as I've priced that out and it's barely cheaper and sometimes more expensive. And no don't tell me powder city or another like website as again barely cheaper (cheaper than supp companies individual but overall it's barely cheaper and can be more expensive)I have done that before, buying the raws and making my own. The only way to guarantee an even dispersal (in my experience doing it at home) is to make up individual servings. It was a PITA and I just buy the commercial pres and add in whatever ingredients I feel are lacking. The savings were just not worth the time IMO. but if you have (a lot) more time than money and care about the bottom line, then yea, that is one way to go.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Shoot me a message or PM, I can give you a few pointers on how to make a homemade PWO batch quicker.I have done that before, buying the raws and making my own. The only way to guarantee an even dispersal (in my experience doing it at home) is to make up individual servings. It was a PITA and I just buy the commercial pres and add in whatever ingredients I feel are lacking. The savings were just not worth the time IMO. but if you have (a lot) more time than money and care about the bottom line, then yea, that is one way to go.
Jiigzz
Legend
Your last paragraph is 100% incorrect. You are dosing outside normal, established dosage ranges. The onus is on YOU, regardless of any form your clients sign, to prove a product is safe. Don't take my word for it, ask your legal team.
FWIW I dont think your product is unsafe, and so please know I'm not at all discussing this pre workout. Just the comments in general, lol. Trying to make this clear.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
No worries! I think this discussion would be good for everyone on the board to see.
My main point was that there's, unfortunately, not enough research and human data on the hundreds of dietary supplements. This is one of the reasons the FDA has to formally prove an ingredient is unsafe before they can pull it off the market - and that's what my last paragraph was getting at. Because the reality is I don't think many supplement companies can fund a large scale clinical study to prove your specific formulation is safe and effective. Ideally it'd be great, but realistically it'd be near impossible.
And to address some of the DMAA safety issues two good reads can be found here:
Toxicity section from PubMed:Invalid Link Removed
Merck Index entry on DMAA (need a subscription) : Invalid Link Removed
But the important part from the second source is essentially "No long-term toxicity studies are in existence, although acute LD50 of DMAA has been established at 39mg/kg bodyweight intravenous injection and 185mg/kg bodyweight intraperitoneal injection. Theoretically well below what can be achieved via oral ingestion."
It's unfortunate the oral ingestion is theoretical, but let's just assume a 90kg (200lb man), he would need to IV 3500mg of DMAA to reach LD50 levels and this is many times lower than that of oral ingestion. This is why we believe 120mg/serving can be safe if used responsibly.
Jiigzz
Legend
Definitely do not think any of the ingredients you are using/ dosing at are going to be of issue haha.
I like the look of the pre - mostly because I like my stuff to be pretty potent. I will try it, because if one scoop is too much, I have a prettty cheap half scooper product.
If anything, at least your new pre has already generated waves
I like the look of the pre - mostly because I like my stuff to be pretty potent. I will try it, because if one scoop is too much, I have a prettty cheap half scooper product.
If anything, at least your new pre has already generated waves
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Definitely do not think any of the ingredients you are using/ dosing at are going to be of issue haha.
I like the look of the pre - mostly because I like my stuff to be pretty potent. I will try it, because if one scoop is too much, I have a prettty cheap half scooper product.
If anything, at least your new pre has already generated waves
Much appreciated! We also understand that not everyone likes stims and the crash that comes with DMAA and that some people work out at night so caffeine and stims may keep them up. That's why right now we have 3/4 of our anticipated PWOs...Our last one will be a stim free one. So hopefully we'll have a line of pre's that can accommodate most people.
If you do decide to try it, please give us your feedback! Customer feedback is so valuable to us. And of course if you're not a fan, just let us know and we'll refund you your full order.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I don't think the primary concern with the DMA is the LD50 and/or toxicity, but the chance of some adverse effects at higher doses. Granted, a responsible supplement user should read the ingredients, know what they're taking, and assess tolerance, not just jump to a full scoop/serving the first time. Do you think that 200mg caffeine and 120mg DMAA (or 60mg 1,3 and 60mg 1,4) would have a more significant effect on blood pressure relative to the 250mg caffeine and 75mg DMAA used in the study below?
Here's an interesting study on caffeine and DMAA. The highest dose used was 250mg caffeine + 75mg DMAA:
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VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Oh absolutely, we're actually going to change our PWO labels just a little so in the future you'll see basically a "stimulant gauge" on the front panel. I'll also be working on updating our product pages for our products as well as have a blog post going over how one should progress if they're new.
Customer education is very important and it's definitely something we want to incorporate into our marketing campaign. I'll be the first to admit though that marketing isn't my strongest point so it'll be a work in progress!
I believe taking high stim products consistently can have negative effects on your body and generally we suggest to cycle PWO and not to take it every day. For example we think a 30 servings of Blood Shot should last 2-3 months to get the best results with the least side effects, which comes out to $15-20 a month. We really don't think you should depend on a PWO to have a good workout, instead use it when you're tired or if you've got a big leg day coming up
But to reiterate, yes we believe higher stims will cause more stress on your body. But the human body is very resilient, just don't go crazy with 2-3 scoops every single day.
Jiigzz
Legend
I'll keep you posted!
TrainerTone
Well-known member
Wanted to try this but someone told me it just reminded then of Animal Whey Frank's Bday Cake. Anxiously awaiting ur thoughts Bob
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Appreciate you! Always nice to have someone keep us on our toes
Off topic, but do you know any of the in-house employees at SNS? I meet with Richard a few times a month, not sure if you know him, but down to earth and knowledgeable guy. Very honest too.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I commend you for wanting to take the time and effort to educate consumers, and that should go a long way to minimizing any potential adverse effects or negative experiences. If it didn't have such a high dose of Noopept, I may have picked some up to try, since it isn't too expensive at 1/2 a scoop, and doesn't have a ton of caffeine; it would have been something nice to use as basically a nice "boost" to either a non-stim or low stim pre-workout or nootropic supplement, but the 30mg of Noopept per 1/2 serving is higher than I would personally like, especially since there are a few other supplements that already have Noopept in them, although it isn't really your responsibility to make your products so they'll stack with other companies products that people happen to like.Oh absolutely, we're actually going to change our PWO labels just a little so in the future you'll see basically a "stimulant gauge" on the front panel. I'll also be working on updating our product pages for our products as well as have a blog post going over how one should progress if they're new.
Customer education is very important and it's definitely something we want to incorporate into our marketing campaign. I'll be the first to admit though that marketing isn't my strongest point so it'll be a work in progress!
I believe taking high stim products consistently can have negative effects on your body and generally we suggest to cycle PWO and not to take it every day. For example we think a 30 servings of Blood Shot should last 2-3 months to get the best results with the least side effects, which comes out to $15-20 a month. We really don't think you should depend on a PWO to have a good workout, instead use it when you're tired or if you've got a big leg day coming up
But to reiterate, yes we believe higher stims will cause more stress on your body. But the human body is very resilient, just don't go crazy with 2-3 scoops every single day.
Also, would you be able to give us some more info on the standardization of the rhodiola rosea?
The Solution
Legend
I saw that
I personally was not a big fan of franks bday cake. Tasted like bland yellow cake to me. Was not a fan.
AI Sports and MTS are far better.
Jiigzz
Legend
I appreciate it when company owners take the time to interact - even in the face of criticism. That alone is why I am keen to try more of your products. Seriously - good job!Appreciate you! Always nice to have someone keep us on our toes
Off topic, but do you know any of the in-house employees at SNS? I meet with Richard a few times a month, not sure if you know him, but down to earth and knowledgeable guy. Very honest too.
Unfortunately I don't live in the US, but I do email our owner very regularly. Richard is a very knowledgeable guy as well
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Thanks for your feedback! Just curious, what has been your personal experience with taking higher amounts of noopept?
Our rhodiola rosea is 5% rosavins, compared to most human studies that were done with a 3% rosavins extract.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I just haven't found any need to take higher doses of Noopept. I find that ~20mg works fine, and has a lot more safety data than higher doses. Why "push/test the limits" if I don't have to, especially for something that's intended to have cognitive effects. Maybe I'm just "playing it safe."
Also, the majority of promising human studies on rhodiola rosea use an extract that does have 3% rosavins, but also at least 1% salidroside. Studies on endurance and athletic performance tend to use 3% rosavins and 1% salidroside, and studies on fatigue and other activities often used the SHR-5 extract, which is pretty close to 3% rosavins and 2% salidroside. I've seen many spec sheets, COAs, etc, and extracts high in one or the other (rosavins or salidroside) without mention of the other often have very low content of the other (for example, many 3% salidroside extracts seem to have very little rosavin content), although this certainly isn't always the case. Any info on the salidroside content?
Here's some interesting reading on rhodiola that you may have seen before:
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Darkhorse192
Well-known member
Its not even close to the same, and I am a lover of of Franks lol...I currently have 14 2lbers of it on hand.
Darkhorse192
Well-known member
I love it for exactly what it is. Yes it has the name birthday cake in it, but its different than other birthday cake flavors, and I dont think there were necessarily trying to make it a true birthday cake falvor. I dont put in the same comparisons as other bday cake flavors when asked what is best. I think MTS is probably the best out right now. EVL is right there too. Id rank AI and EVL very close, probably a tie for 2nd behind MTS, and with Mutant Pro (not the ISO) following in 3rd / 4th behind them. The Mutant ISO is bad. Rule 1 Vanilla butter cake is damn good too. Not a bday cake target, but definiltley not a vanilla, its more of like a wedding cake taste, sht is pretty good especially for being and Isolate.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
As a counterpoint to consider, according to US Patent 5439930, the LD50 for mice is 5000mg/kg which is about 400mg/kg for an adult male or 36g for a 200lb male. Also you have to consider 20mg for a 110lb female affects them way differently then 20mg for a 220lb male. I'd suggest maybe try an increased noopept dosage, maybe you'll see improved effects or maybe not! But the amount of noopept needed to reach toxicity levels is so high I don't think it'd necessarily be pushing the limits.
I'll be honest I don't know the salidroside % I'll have to ask for the extract COA from my manufacture on Monday, but it usually takes them a few days to pull it from the files.
Sparkss
Well-known member
PC closed its doors recently. Had a big blowout clearance sale.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Yes I saw. I believe they were having a lot of trouble getting a payment processor since they had many nootropics and then the law suit on top of that was just too much. It's really sad because they were a great company.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
As Jiigzz said, even if it sounds like I'm being critical of you, I do really appreciate that you're taking the time to answer questions and engage in conversation; that's a lot more than most companies would do, and shows that you actually care about your products and customers. I do know what you're saying about Noopepts apparent safety profile, and I'm not saying it's a dangerous dose at all. I've been taking 30mg/day recently, and enjoying it, and I've seen some products go as high as 50mg.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
No worries brother! As the company owner I have to defend my products. But at the same time there's so much knowledge and experience here, I'd be foolish not to engage with and learn from the community. For example, on our next run of Controlled Burn we're taking our acreoline. There was a great discussion surrounding its inclusion but end of the day we are here to serve the consumers and we are going to remove acreoline (along with a few other things) to cater to what the consumers and forum members want!
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I respect this for sure!! Although bend don't break. Consumers mostly make terrible r&d. Although if you believe the consumer opinions are better ya go for it make those changes. Or if, like acreoline, the inclusion of an ingredient is hurting sells sure make the change. But don't make products that consumers "design" unless you also think it's a smart thing to do.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Absolutely, and a big part of marketing is telling consumers exactly what they want and why they should want it. A lot of times consumer's don't know what they want or only know generally what they want - that's where marketing comes in and tells them "you want/need this because it does x,y,z for you". Much of marketing is all about generating awareness and demand!
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Yep it's why I would suck at marketing. I think I could be good with the r&d side with a bit more education and time(ie it being my job). As I suck at explain what I know unless you tell me what you know what you want to know from me
Edit. Not saying r&d is easy by any means.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
I'm not great at marketing either, if someone came up to me and asked me how to get big and ripped my answer would be gear. That's why we try to tailor all our products around individuals who could still benefit from our products even if they are taking steroids. For example, if we were to try to create a sell a test booster, I'd have a hard time having competitors believing and pushing the product, because we all know they're taking taking any type of legal test booster lol. But I do know that many people who do take steroids can have trouble sleeping because of their increased anabolic state, so that's why we have sleep aids. And those who take oral compounds can really benefit from our liver support product and etc.
Although admittedly we do miss a large part of the market by excluding pro-hormones and test boosters because I know there's still a large market for them. 5-10 years ago there were prohormones that were effective and the pros outweighed the cons. But I think those days are now gone
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justhere4comm
Banned
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After BloodShot, don't quote me here but it stops time; makes you irresistible to the opposite sex; beautiful; smell good; thinner; more muscular like a super model and Arnold in his prime and fearless like a bull during mating season.
After BloodShot, don't quote me here but it stops time; makes you irresistible to the opposite sex; beautiful; smell good; thinner; more muscular like a super model and Arnold in his prime and fearless like a bull during mating season.
pulsefit
Board Sponsor
TrainerTone
Well-known member
Ok so I'll see if I can get a sample or 2 and try it myself. Just seems like 1 of those proteins that's a toss up. I've seen a few people love it and a couple say it's meh. Don't want to bite the bullet and go for a whole tub I might not enjoy that much.
The Solution
Legend
BSN Syntha 6 Edge Sugar Cookie
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Taste
Sugar Cookie
I have not had a BSN Protein in years, but man did this flavor get nailed. You get a perfect balance of the cookie flavor and a nice aftertaste of sugary sweetness. The best part was the balance BSN provided in this flavor. It is not overpowering sweet like some birthday cake flavors can be, but it has the strong element of a cookie (slight buttery flavor) to offset the luscious sugary aftertaste. I have to say I am shocked at this one, being someone who has a major sweet tooth this was fantastic. BSN took a good combination, meshed both flavors together, and something that does not resemble a glorified vanilla.
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Mixability
For those who have had BSN before they know it mixes with ease. Even as a blend the protein powder has no problems or leaves no clumps. I prefer the thicker protein shakes or protein pudding. This mixes with ease and left nothing on the sides of the blender when it was finished.
The Shake I made below was 6oz of cashew milk, 1 Scoop and 7 ice cubes.
Formula
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3.5g Fat
6g Carb
24g Protein
A middle of the road caloric dense protein powder clocking in at 150 calories per scoop. The blend contains WPI, WPC, WPH, Casein, and MPC. The sunflower oil and corn syrup solids may turn off some people away, but those are in there for the added fat. The blend does mix thick due to the additional Gum’s (Cellulose and xanthan).
Rocket3015
Legend
The Solution you made it sound so good I may have to buy some !!
Darkhorse192
Well-known member
really is a great flavor
the only thing about this flavor is that if you are on a tight budget of macros....as good as it is, im not sure it would be worth such high macros. There a lot of amazing flavors out there that are not going to "cost" as much, but outside of that Id recomneed to anyone
TrainerTone
Well-known member
Yea the macros are somewhat high but I can manage to fit them in this last month of my bulk, no problem. By the way clear your inbox bro!!
The Solution
Legend
With sugar cookie I thought before even trying it would just be a very sweet and glorified vanilla. Not the case. You clearly get the cookie aspect, and a buttery undertone from a fresh baked sugar cookie. While it is a touch sweet, it is not as sweet as I expected a true sugar cookie to be. Where you are overcome by the frosting, and the soft cookie is more of the aftertaste. I would break it down like 40% Sugar/Vanilla Flavoring, 40% cookie and 20% buttery aftertaste
As far as the macros.. 3.5g Fat, 6 Carbs, and 25ish g protein is not that high honestly.. 150 calories is only a little bit above most which range from 110-130
Do I think its good? Yes.. Is it a must purchase and go out and buy kind of product? Thats depending on your taste buds. If you are not a huge birthday cake, sugar cookie then I would not invest..
Darkhorse192
Well-known member
spot on review bro, and yeah im not concerned about the macros at all, I was simply saying for a dude that might be in the latter half of a prep may not want to expend those extra (albeit small) carbs and fats for a flavor that isnt mind blowingly worth it if you know what i mean. Certainly the critique of the taste is right there.
Ive heard that their peanut butter cookie is also amazing, however, with this centurion peanut butter cookie being so damn good, and PES new stuff close to being out, I dont even want to go down a road of discovery on that one. Especially since I also keep quest PB and Myofeed Vanilla PB2 on hand as it is id say im good to go in that department lol.
tyga tyga
Legend
Is this a good thing or bad thing?
ryane87
Well-known member
Well, considering the company that acquired them makes like 10 different kinds of their pre workout with maybe one being worth a damn, I think Scivation is screwed...lol
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Sure no one i there right mind would mess with xtend, but cellucor sucks. I can't image things not changing though; they always to when a company is bought out. Although I'm not the biggest fan of scivation either so there's that. They are WAAAYYYY better than cellucor though
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Sorry for wrong information yesterday, I was looking at the wrong manufacturer, the Rhodiola Rosea in Blood Shot is " 3% rosavins and 1% salidroses".
muscleupcrohn
Legend
It's all good. That's a good extract, since you really want salidroside AND rosavins.
VeinNutrition
Board Sponsor
Happy you approve
