Supplement Companies to Avoid

smith_69 said:
nope
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there is past precedent of talking poorly (really just stating facts) about competing brands and getting served with lawsuits.

I have a gag-order on me for 2 different supplement companies for comments I made about their formulas. It was accept the gag order or have IFN get a massive lawsuit against them. I chose to shut my mouth.
 
Vein, your entire post fell apart as soon as you said it's ok to not have compliance because a company is small. All industries have barriers to entry. People put this in their body, you don't think on some level there should be QC around that? You think it's fair for new start ups who do it properly to have to compete against companies who don't? If you have a recall on a product, which could happen for a ton of reasons, you need retention samples and a recall plan in place. You need to do mock recalls once a year to show you can execute it if needed. It's basic consumer safety. The days of 10k start ups isn't gone. Your example is exactly that. The rules now are different than they were 15 years ago. Gotta play by the rules.

The rest of your post in regards to sourcing just shows lack of experience. You can know the source of your ingredients and never talk to a supplier in china. A manufacture will do what you require of them, most require very little. People enter this industry because they think it will be fun, but have little knowledge of how things actually work. Then everyone acts surprised when something goes wrong.

I can't go into specific details because I will be sued. I'm a high value target and countless people follow my posts waiting to find something. I've been sued over 30x in 16 years in the industry. Everything from what I've said to posting test results. I've never lost a single case. I'm too old to fight people now lol. People can follow me on various boards and piece together the info to learn about the industry. One day I will leave the sports space, likely within 18-24 months, then I can talk a lot more. Most of my focus is on medical research at this point. The industry just wore me out. That's why I rarely go to trade shows. I'll speak at a few events, that's about it.
 
I personally don't see how anyone at IFN can have the audacity to talk about someone else's product. Ifn was a highly overhyped brand on bb dot com that made its headway into many retailers with hemavol. An overpriced pump product that needed 2 servings costing around 35$ for 15 days. They also had tropinol (sp.) Which was essentially just potassium nitrate with a prop of "test boosting" enhancers. People didn't realize pot nit alone would do the same thing for vascularity and muscle fullness.

Then before that was some harder times for ifn many forgot and don't know about. Point is, everyone deserves a second chance.

If you all want a good company I'd recommend myokem. Performax labs.
 
ultramario12 said:
I personally don't see how anyone at IFN can have the audacity to talk about someone's else's product. Ifn was a highly overhyped brand on bb dot com that made its headway into many retailers with hemavol. An overpriced pump product that needed 2 servings costing around 35$ for 15 days. They also had tropinol (sp.) Which was essentially just potassium nitrate with a prop of "test boosting" enhancers. People didn't realize pot nit alone would do the same thing for vascularity and muscle fullness.

Then before that was some harder times for ifn many forgot and don't know about. Point is, everyone deserves a second chance.

If you all want a good company I'd recommend myokem. Performax labs.
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IFN never made any statements as a company. I made statements as a poster.


and to make sure we have facts straight, IFN originally became popular due to Bold200. Then it released Dymethazine/Protodrol and the company really took off. Hemavol was released, and it was THE first pre-workout to feature agmatine sulfate. Don't believe me? Find a pre-wo marketed prior to Hemavol that utilized Agmatine Sulfate and I'll send you a tub on the house.

IFN sells Potassium Nitrate on its own. That said, Tropinol was a TEST BOOSTER, that included potassium nitrate.


If you'd like me to correct your nonsense regarding any other IFN matters, please let me know what you'd like me to comment on next.
 
1Fast400 said:
One day I will leave the sports space, likely within 18-24 months, then I can talk a lot more.
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This real talk? Seriously plan on getting out within the next 2 years? Honestly I don't blame you one bit, in for massive story time if that day ever comes :D
 
1Fast400 said:
Vein, your entire post fell apart as soon as you said it's ok to not have compliance because a company is small. All industries have barriers to entry. People put this in their body, you don't think on some level there should be QC around that? You think it's fair for new start ups who do it properly to have to compete against companies who don't? If you have a recall on a product, which could happen for a ton of reasons, you need retention samples and a recall plan in place. You need to do mock recalls once a year to show you can execute it if needed. It's basic consumer safety. The days of 10k start ups isn't gone. Your example is exactly that. The rules now are different than they were 15 years ago. Gotta play by the rules.

The rest of your post in regards to sourcing just shows lack of experience. You can know the source of your ingredients and never talk to a supplier in china. A manufacture will do what you require of them, most require very little. People enter this industry because they think it will be fun, but have little knowledge of how things actually work. Then everyone acts surprised when something goes wrong.

I can't go into specific details because I will be sued. I'm a high value target and countless people follow my posts waiting to find something. I've been sued over 30x in 16 years in the industry. Everything from what I've said to posting test results. I've never lost a single case. I'm too old to fight people now lol. People can follow me on various boards and piece together the info to learn about the industry. One day I will leave the sports space, likely within 18-24 months, then I can talk a lot more. Most of my focus is on medical research at this point. The industry just wore me out. That's why I rarely go to trade shows. I'll speak at a few events, that's about it.
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I think there's some misunderstanding. I did not claim that's it's OK to not have compliance. My assertion was that smaller companies do not have the same level of resources to have the same level of independent 3rd party compliance that bigger companies do. I have to be brief because I'm on mobile, but I'll elaborate once I get back in front of my laptop. My ask is that we treat each other with the same level of respect. There seems to be a feeling of disregard because we're a new company in the space.
 
VaughnTrue said:
there is past precedent of talking poorly (really just stating facts) about competing brands and getting served with lawsuits.

I have a gag-order on me for 2 different supplement companies for comments I made about their formulas. It was accept the gag order or have IFN get a massive lawsuit against them. I chose to shut my mouth.
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VaughnTrue theres way to do it bro- no one needs to get into specifics.
 
1Fast400 said:
Vein, your entire post fell apart as soon as you said it's ok to not have compliance because a company is small. All industries have barriers to entry. People put this in their body, you don't think on some level there should be QC around that? You think it's fair for new start ups who do it properly to have to compete against companies who don't? If you have a recall on a product, which could happen for a ton of reasons, you need retention samples and a recall plan in place. You need to do mock recalls once a year to show you can execute it if needed. It's basic consumer safety. The days of 10k start ups isn't gone. Your example is exactly that. The rules now are different than they were 15 years ago. Gotta play by the rules.

The rest of your post in regards to sourcing just shows lack of experience. You can know the source of your ingredients and never talk to a supplier in china. A manufacture will do what you require of them, most require very little. People enter this industry because they think it will be fun, but have little knowledge of how things actually work. Then everyone acts surprised when something goes wrong.

I can't go into specific details because I will be sued. I'm a high value target and countless people follow my posts waiting to find something. I've been sued over 30x in 16 years in the industry. Everything from what I've said to posting test results. I've never lost a single case. I'm too old to fight people now lol. People can follow me on various boards and piece together the info to learn about the industry. One day I will leave the sports space, likely within 18-24 months, then I can talk a lot more. Most of my focus is on medical research at this point. The industry just wore me out. That's why I rarely go to trade shows. I'll speak at a few events, that's about it.
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just hitting on my previous comment from before, what you mentioned just gives some broad examples, which is what I was interested in. So thank you for posting that. appreciate it
 
I avoid muscle tech. Never got anything from their products.

Olympus, Animal/Universal and SNS are my go to's
 
shanedoolie1 said:
Any company whose products have a similar name to real aas. Like D-Boll, or Anvar. Or any that actually have the name of a steroid like D-bol© but have that trademark symbol after.. Lol
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I agree with this and also use it as a benchmark. I was on Stack3D and they just posted about a new preworkout called Enject that comes with a syringe you use to measure and squirt it in your mouth.
 
VO2Maxima said:
Nitrotech birthday cake bars are one of the better renditions of that flavor that I've had.
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Going through my box of those right now... they're great!

I've tried 3 of the flavors so far, my personal rankings:
1. Cinnamon Bun ... Amazing
2. Birthday Cake ... amazing
3 Chocolate peanut butter (didn't care for this one at all)
 
Woody said:
What causes of action would you assert that would survive summary judgment filed with an answer?
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You really want to get into this?

Its just amazing how you comment "don't buy it" when the guy mentioned has been sued over 30 times. Its remarkable how much you think you know vs what you actually know.
 
Did scivation have 4 QC people when they started? A contract mandating the manufacturer performs extensive QC testing would be how most startups presumably handle this.

Nothing unusual in business to do this. Supermarkets don't make their private label lines but outsource production and they don't test it themselves when they receive it at least not to an extent that's significant (speaking from experience with grocery industry).

Outsourcing production to third parties is common to many industries...
 
Supercellular said:
Did scivation have 4 QC people when they started? A contract mandating the manufacturer performs extensive QC testing would be how most startups presumably handle this.

Nothing unusual in business to do this. Supermarkets don't make their private label lines but outsource production and they don't test it themselves when they receive it at least not to an extent that's significant (speaking from experience with grocery industry).

Outsourcing production to third parties is common to many industries...
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He didn't own it when they started and regulations concerning post production were different then vs. now.
 
Supercellular said:
Did scivation have 4 QC people when they started? A contract mandating the manufacturer performs extensive QC testing would be how most startups presumably handle this.

Nothing unusual in business to do this. Supermarkets don't make their private label lines but outsource production and they don't test it themselves when they receive it at least not to an extent that's significant (speaking from experience with grocery industry).

Outsourcing production to third parties is common to many industries...
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Err, how are a supermarket and a supplement company one in the same on this? A supermarket represents what nutraplanet.com or bb.com are to the suuplement industry, but food companies are held to standards far stricter than what you find supplement companies are.

The comparison makes zero sense in this case.
 
Companies that large may/probably do have legal teams, and they don't get paid to sit around
 
I thought Marc Lobliner sold scivation and the formula for xtend to you 1Fast400

So, didn't Marc technically do the leg work and foundation for scivation?
 
1Fast400 said:
Everyone loves the story of small companies. I get it, we want to help the small guy out. The problem in this space, being compliant is a massive amount of work. My QC team is 4 full time people, a PHD and 2 with masters. It's non stop work, which surprises most people. We are a 1 sku company, Xtend. We don't make 60 sku's. If you think small brands are up to speed on compliance, it's just highly unlikely. There is a reason we're the only BCAA that exists that has NSF for sport and informed choice.

Most supplements are made by asking a manufacture if they can make X product. Manufacture quotes X product, company either buys or doesn't. To believe there is a lot of testing going on before/during/after that process in most cases, is just incorrect. People buying random hormones, do you think the company is sending it out to make sure whatever was sent over from china is actually what it's claimed?

A lot of supplement companies are ran out of offices. They are marketing companies. The idea of science is playing around on pub med and answering the 100's of emails that come in from random chinese suppliers. Who aren't even chinese suppliers in most cases, just brokers. Most companies weren't started by mensa applicants. They were started by hobbiest with 10k in their pocket who wanted to make a supplement. Now, here we are.
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How are so many small supplement companies able to survive then? I agree with you that a supplement company is really 99% a marketing company, however that would make it cheap for acquisition. So, why isn't there significant consolidation of these smaller brands, which would lower the overall operating costs reducing things like QA, compliance, etc.? Are most supplement brands owned by a handful of companies and I just don't know it? I always thought this was a very thin margin game for small supplement companies, which means M&A could likely have great synergies in this industry.
 
Jiigzz said:
Err, how are a supermarket and a supplement company one in the same on this? A supermarket represents what nutraplanet.com or bb.com are to the suuplement industry, but food companies are held to standards far stricter than what you find supplement companies are.

The comparison makes zero sense in this case.
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Stop n shop for 1. I'm sure they outsource but they make and sell powder and bars
 
Was traveling cross country from amazon yesterday with crap internet. Will try get to everything.

I started scivation and have owned it from day 1. Legal paperwork has been posted by others many times showing this.

Once laws changed, going back to around 08-09, I had a PHD inside helping with QC/QA. As the company grew, so did the department. Having the manufacture "test" things is 1 step amongst many.

Acquisitions don't happen in this industry because almost none of them can survive due diligence. Equity firms want to back things with limited liability, that's not this industry. If you notice, the deals that do get done after often over 50m+. There have been smaller deals. Pro supps is ran by equity vs original owner now. ONE bar took on a big equity stake, but they were a nice size company to start with. There isn't a lack of money looking to spent in the industry, just a lack of companies that can have their mess together. Equity wants to invest in brands and brands rarely exist. One of the biggest mistakes most companies make is in thinking they're a brand when they're a product. We aren't Scivation, we're Xtend. Difference is I know that. One big mistake and a brand can disappear overnight. UPS was dropped off Shoppe, GNC and BB in a matter of a month. Pretty much a death blow. That type of legal exposure is what scares equity.
 
carguy123 said:
This real talk? Seriously plan on getting out within the next 2 years? Honestly I don't blame you one bit, in for massive story time if that day ever comes :D
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100%. I've been very open about my exit from sports nutrition. My passion is in medical. The sports side pays for my research on the medical side. We're hoping to run our first human cancer trial this year. We'll run a human trial on Angelman's Syndrome for sure. Hard to get excited about pre's and protein when you work with parents who just want their kids to not have 50 seizures a day.
 
1Fast400 said:
I started scivation and have owned it from day 1. Legal paperwork has been posted by others many times showing this.
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Thats interesting.
 
Jiigzz said:
Err, how are a supermarket and a supplement company one in the same on this? A supermarket represents what nutraplanet.com or bb.com are to the suuplement industry, but food companies are held to standards far stricter than what you find supplement companies are.

The comparison makes zero sense in this case.
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I am talking about supermarket with private label products (e.g. Walmart branded ketchup made by a contract manufacturer).

This is the same as a small supplement company outsourcing production to a contract manufacturer in the supplement industry. In both situations it it would be the contract manufacturers task to ensure product quality.

Ignore the fact that Walmart is a retailer as well the point is this would be an instance of a very large public company who would not be employing people to assess the quality of the ketchup under their own brand.

The idea every brand needs its own QA people is a fallacy not supported by evidence from the wider economy where you'll often get a single brand making its own product and then private labelling for third parties while being the one responsible for QA.

Btw, to 1fast400, good luck with an exit plan, your future plans sounds like jumping from the frying pan into the fire but you sir sound an honourable man.
 
1Fast400 said:
Was traveling cross country from amazon yesterday with crap internet. Will try get to everything.

I started scivation and have owned it from day 1. Legal paperwork has been posted by others many times showing this.

Once laws changed, going back to around 08-09, I had a PHD inside helping with QC/QA. As the company grew, so did the department. Having the manufacture "test" things is 1 step amongst many.

Acquisitions don't happen in this industry because almost none of them can survive due diligence. Equity firms want to back things with limited liability, that's not this industry. If you notice, the deals that do get done after often over 50m+. There have been smaller deals. Pro supps is ran by equity vs original owner now. ONE bar took on a big equity stake, but they were a nice size company to start with. There isn't a lack of money looking to spent in the industry, just a lack of companies that can have their mess together. Equity wants to invest in brands and brands rarely exist. One of the biggest mistakes most companies make is in thinking they're a brand when they're a product. We aren't Scivation, we're Xtend. Difference is I know that. One big mistake and a brand can disappear overnight. UPS was dropped off Shoppe, GNC and BB in a matter of a month. Pretty much a death blow. That type of legal exposure is what scares equity.
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Yeah I see what you're saying but I'm not really talking about private equity, like whichever firm bought NBTY. PE is only looking for a return and then a flip and I don't think sports supplements would be a good fit for their investment model. I'm talking about other supplement companies. They are the ones that you would think would benefit the most from M&A growth. If they could buy more brands wouldn't they be able to lower their cost of revenue, cost of operating expenses, etc. I assume the price of raws, QA, legal & compliance would all drop. Seems to me like the capex would be worth the synergies. Unless bigger companies are just looking to grow organically and stomp out the competition that way. I mean, I don't have numbers in front of me to see how I could make these transactions successful so I can be totally wrong, however it just seems like it makes sense in theory.
 
Supercellular said:
I am talking about supermarket with private label products (e.g. Walmart branded ketchup made by a contract manufacturer).

This is the same as a small supplement company outsourcing production to a contract manufacturer in the supplement industry. In both situations it it would be the contract manufacturers task to ensure product quality.

Ignore the fact that Walmart is a retailer as well the point is this would be an instance of a very large public company who would not be employing people to assess the quality of the ketchup under their own brand.

The idea every brand needs its own QA people is a fallacy not supported by evidence from the wider economy where you'll often get a single brand making its own product and then private labelling for third parties while being the one responsible for QA.
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Are you suggesting Walmart doesn't have a QC team?
 
Supercellular said:
I am talking about supermarket with private label products (e.g. Walmart branded ketchup made by a contract manufacturer).

This is the same as a small supplement company outsourcing production to a contract manufacturer in the supplement industry. In both situations it it would be the contract manufacturers task to ensure product quality.

Ignore the fact that Walmart is a retailer as well the point is this would be an instance of a very large public company who would not be employing people to assess the quality of the ketchup under their own brand.

The idea every brand needs its own QA people is a fallacy not supported by evidence from the wider economy where you'll often get a single brand making its own product and then private labelling for third parties while being the one responsible for QA.
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Um, yeah, go run that by the FDA and see how that goes. Go to any standard QC/QA seminar on this industry and tell them that lol. Hi-tech, glanbia and dymatize are about the only brands that own their manufacturing and are vertical. Almost everyone uses 3rd party manufacturing. In your example, when a consumer get sick from that ketchup, who do you think they're suing? It's Walmart, not the company that made it for walmart. The manufacture will have a clause in their contract, as almost every single one days, that says they aren't liable and responsibility of testing/qc/qa falls on them. You're the last line before consumer, it falls on you.
 
210LBS said:
Yeah I see what you're saying but I'm not really talking about private equity, like whichever firm bought NBTY. PE is only looking for a return and then a flip and I don't think sports supplements would be a good fit for their investment model. I'm talking about other supplement companies. They are the ones that you would think would benefit the most from M&A growth. If they could buy more brands wouldn't they be able to lower their cost of revenue, cost of operating expenses, etc. I assume the price of raws, QA, legal & compliance would all drop. Seems to me like the capex would be worth the synergies. Unless bigger companies are just looking to grow organically and stomp out the competition that way. I mean, I don't have numbers in front of me to see how I could make these transactions successful so I can be totally wrong, however it just seems like it makes sense in theory.
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PE doesn't want to manage these brands. Most brands are ran by hobbiest, not business people. That's why so few stand the test of time and ever go to a meaningful transaction. I'm part of a group of 3 that gets hired out to review possible transactions for equity groups. I'd say 1 in 100 makes it past an initial interview phase. Sure, if they can get in at a 2-3 multiple, MAYBE they'd invest, but overwhelmingly, no.
 
VaughnTrue said:
Are you suggesting Walmart doesn't have a QC team?
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Not calling out a particular grocer but there have been instances more than once of contaminated products sold by supermarkets (horse meat in burgers under the supermarket's own label products for example).

It suggest they don't have the required QA in place.

1fast400 - If a product was being bought from Glanbia, hi-tech then if the product failed to meet label claims or was off in some way I'm sure a brand would be able to sue the manufacturer for any loss caused even if the initial compensation to be paid to a consumer was made by the brand.

That's if their legal teams know what they are doing when they outsource production a company like Glanbia.
 
Supercellular said:
1fast400 - If a product was being bought from Glanbia, hi-tech then if the product failed to meet label claims or was off in some way I'm sure a brand would be able to sue the manufacturer for any loss caused even if the initial compensation to be paid to a consumer was made by the brand.

That's if their legal teams know what they are doing when they outsource production a company like Glanbia.
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No. Why would the manufacture take on that liability if you have no qc/qa team in place? Your argument is that a small brand, with little volume, is going to go to a big manufacture and get them to sign off and take liability, no. That's not how the real world works. They'll simply say no and you don't get your product made. This is the problem with be underfunded. Go find a single legal case where a supplement company sued it's manufacture over a manufacturing issue. What do you think happened when muscle tech lost their suit for amino spiking?
 
1Fast400 said:
PE doesn't want to manage these brands. Most brands are ran by hobbiest, not business people. That's why so few stand the test of time and ever go to a meaningful transaction. I'm part of a group of 3 that gets hired out to review possible transactions for equity groups. I'd say 1 in 100 makes it past an initial interview phase. Sure, if they can get in at a 2-3 multiple, MAYBE they'd invest, but overwhelmingly, no.
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Yeah, I think we both agree that the sports supplement industry isn't ideal for PE. Most PE firms are going to require a significant amount of revenue for them to even glance at you. However, I'm talking more specifically about corporate development teams of other supplement companies. For example, let's say you have supplement company X, which is worth approximately $10 million, has an operating margin of 7% and little to no debt on their books. Why wouldn't they buy what they think is a smaller promising brand Y, which is worth $2 million and has an operating margin of 3%. Would they be able to actually improve their bottom line in this acquisition through synergies between the 2 companies. QA, HR, compliance, etc can be reduced and produce stronger cash flow for them. From there the corporate development team can look for new acquisitions.

The only thing I can think of is that most supplement companies are so small that the corporate development teams are not as sophisticated as in other industries.
 
1Fast400 said:
.
I started scivation and have owned it from day 1. Legal paperwork has been posted by others many times showing this.
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Don't want to stir the pot but we pay credit where credit is due, right?

Invalid Link Removed

Marc has continually said on social media that scivation was his and his start up, then sold it.
 
tyga tyga said:
Don't want to stir the pot but we pay credit where credit is due, right?

Invalid Link Removed

Marc has continually said on social media that scivation was his and his start up, then sold it.
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If you start thinking Lobliner is honest, you're gonna have a bad time.

Dude is the lowest of the low.
 
VaughnTrue said:
If you start thinking Lobliner is honest, you're gonna have a bad time.

Dude is the lowest of the low.
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Your company, Hi-Tech, is one of the ones that owns several brands, which I assume were all acquisitions? They are a good example of what I am trying to say when I talk about M&A in the supplement industry. If their acquisitions are proving to be successful investments, why aren't there more companies doing it? In a way, isn't there a need for consolidation from both the consumer and producer perspectives in this industry? My guess is that distribution is massive - MASSIVE in this industry if you want to scale. Consolidation would mean better control on prices, better distribution, and higher profit margins.
 
1Fast400 said:
No. Why would the manufacture take on that liability if you have no qc/qa team in place? Your argument is that a small brand, with little volume, is going to go to a big manufacture and get them to sign off and take liability, no. That's not how the real world works. They'll simply say no and you don't get your product made. This is the problem with be underfunded. Go find a single legal case where a supplement company sued it's manufacture over a manufacturing issue. What do you think happened when muscle tech lost their suit for amino spiking?
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Except, if I'm a consumer, I sue everyone. Why limit my pool of recovery. You think a manufacturer wants the publicity that they produced a spiked or underdosed product? Sure, they may not have liability. Doesn't mean they don't confidentially settle.

How do you know it's not cross contamination or something on part of the manufacturer? If you find out later that it's actually the fault of the manufacturer, statute may have tolled and you screwed yourself.
 
Invalid Link Removed
 
210LBS said:
Your company, Hi-Tech, is one of the ones that owns several brands, which I assume were all acquisitions? They are a good example of what I am trying to say when I talk about M&A in the supplement industry. If their acquisitions are proving to be successful investments, why aren't there more companies doing it? In a way, isn't there a need for consolidation from both the consumer and producer perspectives in this industry? My guess is that distribution is massive - MASSIVE in this industry if you want to scale. Consolidation would mean better control on prices, better distribution, and higher profit margins.
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To be frank, I have little to no knowledge about how/why Hi-Tech buys companies the way it does. I'm just not involved in that portion of the company. I have no insight into why they're doing it, how they're doing it, or the logistics behind it.

That being said, from my mostly uninformed position, I see the following happening in the near future:

Hi-Tech brings on 2+ more brands
Hi-Tech expands its distribution capabilities West to have a nationwide 2 day shipping reach
Hi-Tech begins to act as a distributor which offers it's house brands in addition to the brands it manufactures for

In effect, I believe Jared is attempting to control every single aspect of his products. From raw material production (with the dairy plant purchase in PA), to manufacturing (in both GA and PA), to distribution. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that they go down this route, and if/when they do, they then start their own retail infrastructure to sell product directly to the end user.
 
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