Epistane, Trest, Super-11

[sespress]

I wouldn't worry about a 54 for E2 - are you having problems? I bet your joints and lipids are just fine - E2 does good - builds muscle too. You need to chill the F out with the drugs and chems if you are in an Off Cycle. Use Grape Seed Extract, Broccoli Sprout Extract, and grab some Swanson's I-3-C (or eat Broccoli/Cauliflower) if you want - but no Aromasin or Invictus would be my advice. What's your estimated BF% right now?

27% right now. That's down from 32%. I did grab some albuterol. Are you sure no one's exploded from it? I thought I had freaking Parkinson's for 6 hours. Couldn't hold a fork from the shakes. Clen didn't do that to me. Dose was 2-2.5mg albuterol vs 75-100mcg Clen. Ended up taking some clonazapam to calmn the f down and go to bed 6 hours later after dose. Just woke up now many hours later. It seems way stronger to me, but less cramping. I found drop out to 1-2mg instead but that seems low versus established doses of 4-5mg/day split up. It totally ****ed my workout I was in there for 10 minutes and doing overhead press with an Olympic bar I got mad Dizzy and went home.

Also I didn't think the 54 was out of wack that far, actually all the high numbers were like 1% or less over the Max value. Are you suggesting that number isn't a leftover from hormone recovery from PCT so many weeks ago?

Why no Invictus. This is supposed to be a non hormonal product, same with the v2-kt. Do you think both are no good or Just the Invictus? They've done wonders for my weight loss, really have noticed the difference - and that's before adding Clen. I've also thought the cortisol blocking had helped with my immune system. Haven't been sick at all this winter. No Cold even.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I posted about Albuterol on the 4th - how have you already obtained and used it?

Anyway: Rx or RC? Did you *really* have Clen? Do you *really* have Albuterol? Did your supplier (assuming no Rx) decide to "super-charge"? Been known to happen with stuff you can "feel" - gets repeat customers. Did you dose it properly? Glad you started low - let this be a lesson to others.

WebMD: Invalid Link Removed

Epocrates Screen Shot: (Epocrates is a free app Doctors use - very handy)

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Your 54 could certainly be from PCT. I said what I said because you sounded like you were worried and wanted to take something to "knock it down".

You do what you want, but I wouldn't be taking anything other than 'very natural' supps during recovery. TD b-AET isn't in that category for me, maybe it is for you.

Honestly man, If I were you (and I was, at 6' - 285lbs) - I'd just eat -750-1000kcals and take Caffeine/EGCG/Forskolin/and maybe Eph and/or Yohimbine for 6 months - 1 year. Then mess with all these chemicals/drugs. Sh^t didn't go on overnight, it ain't coming off overnight either - no matter what you take.

 

[habajaba]

FWIW, non-hormonal does not mean super safe. It means the product shouldn't affect your hormones. But anything you take effects the liver. And kidneys can take a hit too. Nervous system sometimes too. Personally, that's why I'd drop it all. If it was me, I'd wait until my body was naturally reset and within healthy ranges on all the tests before I took any supps.

Look, I'm just as guilty as you when it comes to wanting to throw everything I can at my issues, in order to maximize the effects I get from all this hard work in the gym. But it's just not worth getting seriously sick or dying over.

What happens if your car engine has a knock and you bolt on a turbo? Kaboom! Your "engine" has a knock. So why tempt fate with the turbo?

 

[sespress]

I posted about Albuterol on the 4th - how have you already obtained and used it?

Anyway: Rx or RC? Did you *really* have Clen? Do you *really* have Albuterol? Did your supplier (assuming no Rx) decide to "super-charge"? Been known to happen with stuff you can "feel" - gets repeat customers. Did you dose it properly? Glad you started low - let this be a lesson to others.

WebMD: Invalid Link Removed

Epocrates Screen Shot: (Epocrates is a free app Doctors use - very handy)

I have a friend who had some. His is prescription and my Clen was RC. I tend to trust the RC vendor. Haven't let me down before. It might have been that I took Clen the previous day? I know it sticks around for a while.

 

[sespress]

FWIW, non-hormonal does not mean super safe. It means the product shouldn't affect your hormones. But anything you take effects the liver. And kidneys can take a hit too. Nervous system sometimes too. Personally, that's why I'd drop it all. If it was me, I'd wait until my body was naturally reset and within healthy ranges on all the tests before I took any supps.

Look, I'm just as guilty as you when it comes to wanting to throw everything I can at my issues, in order to maximize the effects I get from all this hard work in the gym. But it's just not worth getting seriously sick or dying over.

What happens if your car engine has a knock and you bolt on a turbo? Kaboom! Your "engine" has a knock. So why tempt fate with the turbo?

That's basically what I'm doing. I'll drop the Invictus first, keep the v2-kt. I've already ceased the other stuff. Gonna continue some form of stim (Clen/Albuterol), so that'll be it. I'll test again in a month - just metabolic. Reestablish at that point. The enzymes were high, but have you looked up numbers from someone with say hepatitis or fatty liver or a career drinker? They don't even compare. I'm not gonna get sick and die brother. Not with those numbers. No worries there.

 

[sespress]

I suggested taking something to knock the e level down Just because I don't know how that's handled so long after PCT. It's apparently not a good idea. That's fine I'll just chill and run bloods again later. Minus the other stuff. No worries thank you for the advice. I don't know it all so I am asking and taking that advice.

But please guys, while I appreciate the concern I'm a big boy. I am glad for the answers, I don't have them all. But I have made a decision based on a lot of trial and error all natural. I was typing up eventually why I feel that way and I realized it didn't matter. Not to anyone here, you don't need to hear my sob story in detail. Suffice it to say I'm not one of those dudes who says "but I tried the normal route I want a magic pill" and wants to eat burgers and beer while doing it. I'm doing everything natural that can be done. I tried everything and and I gave it two years! Time to change gears.

The last run made a mega difference. I expect this next one will be great too. And I continue to lose right now without any kind of anabolic. Just keeping my cals at 1900 and working out. If I put on a bit more muscle this same routine is gonna go into overdrive from increased metabolism. That's the plan, had been the plan, put on muscle, eat less, take anabolics (natty and gear) as much and as frequently as is safe. I'll get intra cycle bloods too. Why the hell not. The metabolic panel is cheap and I've got my whole cycle prepaid so I think I can swing a week 3 blood test.

I'll get more homeostasis bloods in a month. I'd that too soon for homeostasis? Probably however it'll give me a progress report on what I stopped taking and the impact on liver numbers, creatine number, and estradiol.
However - If I drop it all right away then t there is no way to know what was doing it to me. Gotta try to be mildly scientific about it. Can't change every variable simultaneously. Might be useful info. Maybe Invictus or Diesel test specifically is jacking me up, won't know if I stop them together. If the numbers go down I have a shorter list of "these might not be good for me".

Then I'll get another in Feb mid way. If I'm not buying another bottle of all this other stuff then I'll have the cash for it and it's well spent to understand what it is that night be doing that to me. I like my liver, it'd be great if we didn't have to break up or go to counseling, lol.

 

[habajaba]

Just my 2c, take it for whatever it's worth... But my concern would be that it's not one thing that's bad for you. All this stuff is generally safe by itself. That's basically why I recommended stopping it all. When your liver complains, it's overworked. If you stop putting outside substances in, there's less work the liver has to do to filter it out. Giving it a rest will allow it to return to normal. Like you said, you're a big boy and can do whatever you decide. I'm just sharing how I would personally approach such a situation if it was me.

 

[sespress]

Just my 2c, take it for whatever it's worth... But my concern would be that it's not one thing that's bad for you. All this stuff is generally safe by itself. That's basically why I recommended stopping it all. When your liver complains, it's overworked. If you stop putting outside substances in, there's less work the liver has to do to filter it out. Giving it a rest will allow it to return to normal. Like you said, you're a big boy and can do whatever you decide. I'm just sharing how I would personally approach such a situation if it was me.

I do appreciate the 2c and I hear where your coming from. I did discontinue almost everything, I have this hunch it is the quantity not anything in particular but the science nerd in me wants to be sure. The 200 is elevated yes, but not that elevated that I'll croak or do permanent damage. I'm willing to bet a lot of us that run PH hit that number and without Tudca it'd been way way higher.

Seriously though I've got a magnifying glass on it now and I'm not brushing it off.

 

[sespress]

My Bowflex weights arrived. I think the UPS guy nearly threw his back out moving them to the porch. I heard the dog bark and watched him limp back to the truck with his dolly. Guy needs to train harder!

 

[saywutrly]

Also if gyno is gonna happen it could at least be symmetrical right?

This would be so helpful. LOL

Clen is anti-catabolic bro.. take some ketotifen with it so it's effective longer than 2 wks...

I guess we'll see about T3.. ive heard its anabolic at low doses (50mcg) and I'm planning on upping the dose when the test kicks in around wk 4.

Anavar I've only heard great reviews about for cutting/recomp. It's price as hell, which makes me want to say fck it and run some tren as a kicker to a test and t3 cycle. Idk we'll see what I decide on.

For what you're planning, I don't know that I'd add/mix 19nor with trest.. might get too much e issues

Would ketotifen also be used with the albuterol option? Also, I would stay away from mixing 19nors if you have had prolactin issues, but this would probably be the best way to dabble with it with proper ancillaries on hand. It would be better than going off and pinning NPP and IM trest ace haha.

That's fair. So Super-1? I mean I can just stick to the normal plan here too. Why do I read elsewhere on here that taking Clen without gear is bad? Crazy. I hate it when information is so different depending on where you find it. Although I do take your opinion higher than some random poster on other boards or even here. You guys (@habajaba included) post a lot and have good info I've never found anything that contradicts you guys in a scientific fashion.

Thank you for the kind words. I don't know anything that would say it is better to run clen with gear, but albuterol is safer and more mild.

Please just use Albuterol instead. It's approved for human use in the U.S. They give it to kids (in 2-4mg doses). There is a research study on fat loss and anabolisim:

Invalid Link Removed


What is Sup3r-1 TD - they make a trans-dermal?

Always coming with the knowledge. This man has been a great resource for me since my first cycle.

Yeah I shouldn't have used the super there. It's another company but yes, TD 1 andro from alphaGainz. Not sure how long it's been around. I picked up one bottle as it was on sale.

Also albuterol has a really short life in the body doesn't it? That's why Clen is so popular. At sub 100mcg doses Clen has only the cramping sides for me, which 5G of taurine completely got rid of. I think some guys run it easily over 150 but that's a lot IMO. How would you recommend running Albuterol dose wise?

I would read the study and base my decisions on that as far as dosing. Alpha Gainz products are good. I have used them before. They use the legendary Iron Legion Salvo carrier. All my TD epiandro for my first cycle was from AG, as was the test/dht base for my second cycle.

700 mg sustanon? Holy fuark man!

Yeah, it was a great cycle. All my lifts went up but I kept losing weight, even when pushing 4,000 calories. That was why I moved the trest from just a preworkout to a more active role in the cycle.

Thanks man.

8 weeks since PCT. PCT was 4 weeks of Nova and clomid split dose of 25ea each day. Cycle was 8 weeks of 4-andro/Epi andro. I started off with a bottle of a 19 product but it I'm fairly sure was underdosed and I didn't continue it as it was massively expensive. That would be like 2 more weeks - so 10 total bit like I said I think the other stuff wasn't doing crap and I bought it on eBay so I figured the guy let out in the heat or it was mad old or bsl just sucks. Dunno. Got it entirely on the word That 19 product would be good for the joints.

I'm pretty close to a gallon a day right now. I mean I have my days where I don't but at least 1.5L on those days anyhow.

So this is what then? Do I hop back on the PCT meds or just hold tight and get retested? Needs more of a break?

I advocate break and wait for homeostasis. I'm going to have to spend a long time off, probably all winter due to my goofy problems. Then get bloods, then see if I can break into my growing stash of awesomeness. We must always resist the urge to rush things as that can be the most detrimental to our bodies.

Ah I think I'll just drop the natty boosters. I'm gonna keep the v2-kt and Invictus however. I'll test again end of January beginning of February and if the **** is still off I'll go from there. I don't think the iron legion supps are going to be effecting this so should be OK, they all say non hormonal add they've made such a diff on fat loss.

This just means I'll be cutting on my own for a while longer, which means lower bf, and therefore less potential issues with Trest or epistane, so I'll look at the wait as a bonus (I am drooling over the pile of PH that I have so that went into the draw to stop taunting me).

I wouldn't worry about a 54 for E2 - are you having problems? I bet your joints and lipids are just fine - E2 does good - builds muscle too. You need to chill the F out with the drugs and chems if you are in an Off Cycle. Use Grape Seed Extract, Broccoli Sprout Extract, and grab some Swanson's I-3-C (or eat Broccoli/Cauliflower) if you want - but no Aromasin or Invictus would be my advice. What's your estimated BF% right now?

Great advice. I believe that any dark, cruciferious greens will help this - kale, spinach, Brussels's sprouts, etc, just so it doesn't get too boring. A good ZMA probably wouldn't hurt if you're dropping your natty test boosters.

 

[sespress]

ZMA, this is the zinc magnesium supplement? I might have this already just need to check the age on it.

I've ended up just not even using the Invictus. I went to stay with my girlfriend and didn't bring anything but taurine with me so that must be the universe nudging me as well because I swore I brought it and totally forgot.

If I didn't respond it's 27%.

I'll look up i-3-c as well.

No issues with gyno like effects or with my joints at all, really I don't know if I'm making a logical but medically stupid assumption in thinking that under 10% elevated is a warning but we haven't sounded battle stations yet. Also I understand the bf% can mess with this.

 

[habajaba]

ZMA, this is the zinc magnesium supplement? I might have this already just need to check the age on it.

I've ended up just not even using the Invictus. I went to stay with my girlfriend and didn't bring anything but taurine with me so that must be the universe nudging me as well because I swore I brought it and totally forgot.

If I didn't respond it's 27%.

I'll look up i-3-c as well.

No issues with gyno like effects or with my joints at all, really I don't know if I'm making a logical but medically stupid assumption in thinking that under 10% elevated is a warning but we haven't sounded battle stations yet. Also I understand the bf% can mess with this.

Yeah, ZMA is zinc, mag, and b6. MST sells an even more effective version called ZMK. K means all the minerals are bound to Krebs cycle intermediates. Short version is it's more bio available, has more goodies, and just works better. You might want to check it out... Invalid Link Removed

 

[saywutrly]

Correct; zinc aspartate, magnesium aspartate, and B6. I haven't checked into the ZMK, but it sounds as though they may be onto something. I always recommend to do your own research on new technology, or a use thereof, and decide for yourself if it is worth the extra coin.

 

[sespress]

Yeah, ZMA is zinc, mag, and b6. MST sells an even more effective version called ZMK. K means all the minerals are bound to Krebs cycle intermediates. Short version is it's more bio available, has more goodies, and just works better. You might want to check it out... Invalid Link Removed

Huh, yeah I'll check this out. I'm guessing this suggestion had to do with supporting metabolic health? Getting liver health back to normal? ... Krebs cycle intermediates, that's a new one to me also. Sounds cool.

I thought about it too and I have Tudca. Would that just be masking the problem or also help alleviate the underlying cause? I always kind of felt like Tudca lowered enzymes but that might be like just screwing with the pressure gauge to keep it in the green, meanwhile pipes are bursting elsewhere.

 

[habajaba]

Huh, yeah I'll check this out. I'm guessing this suggestion had to do with supporting metabolic health? Getting liver health back to normal? ... Krebs cycle intermediates, that's a new one to me also. Sounds cool.

I thought about it too and I have Tudca. Would that just be masking the problem or also help alleviate the underlying cause? I always kind of felt like Tudca lowered enzymes but that might be like just screwing with the pressure gauge to keep it in the green, meanwhile pipes are bursting elsewhere.

There are a ton of benefits of ZMA/ZMK supplements. ZMk has been around quite a while, so I'm sure you can find plenty of reviews of its legitimacy. MST has been making high quality stuff for years, but they're not flashy like other companies, so I think a lot of people never notice.

The one benefit I think saywutrly was referring to is ZMA/ZMK can raise testosterone along with all the other benefits. As for TUDCA. I'd say it couldn't hurt. The whole point of TUDCA is to help take some of the load off your liver.

 

[sespress]

I don't update this frequently so these posts get huge!

OK so down to 246! I'm stoked! My break on supps continues, minus the normal prescription I take so next check I'll grab another set of blood works and see what's happening.

One product I think really helped me stick to a good diet is a pancake mix called Kodiak Cakes, it's got added oat protein and if you make it with milk and eggs it's like 20 some g of protein and extremely filling as they leave the bran in so it's got a ton of fiber. It is a large portion of my carbs for the day but I don't bloat up as if I had chips and a soda.

Bloat for me seems to be related to carbs, but more so for the really bad ones. I had a bad day for food last week, hit chips, soda, ice cream and pizza all in one day. I was entertaining and as it turns out party food that is quick and easy is just as bad as the booze that makes you want to eat it, lol. I abstained from drinking as usual but I do have fond memories of good beer I used to brew at home. I'll have to prep better food next time, I just got lazy and didn't want to cook for 8.

I'm hovering around 2000 cals in a day at a roughly 33% split between the macro nutrients. Areas to work on are sodium intake and saturated fat. I haven't been charting cals daily anymore as I'm eating the same stuff ever day. If my diet changes I pull out the MyFitnessPal and see where I stand. I cut down the carbs which used to be more like 50% of my cals before I started paying better attention. These were pretty decent carbs but still too much. I tried for a 20/40/40 split with 20% carbs but I haven't tuned things well enough to get to that number. I keep trying new recipes so I'll get there eventually. One thing I know about myself now is if I prep mad healthy foods but hate the taste I'm gonna fall off the wagon that day and end up with a 5 guys burger. I've got to enjoy my food, and there's meals out there that match your goals and are tasty, just need to find them. As I adjust more and more of what I eat I noticed that changing everything at once is also a great way for me to give up, changing one thing at a time and a few things a month has worked great.

So anyways I eat half a waffle made with that mix and some blueberries or banana and vanilla to take out the bitter flavors. I have a single egg on top and a no fat yogurt + black coffee. I found wth fruit and the egg I don't need butter or syrup. I'm full for half a day, I eat just enough at lunch to keep me going, yogurt again and chopped salad, so I don't get mad hungry before dinner. I grab an RX Bar for a snack (these are great also) and have some kind of lean meat for dinner.

It will be interesting to see if my rate of weight loss will be reduced by not supplementing over these past weeks and coming weeks, versus that from before. I am eating the same so it will be telling. I wouldn't be surprised if I bounced up slightly & temporarily for a few days over the next week's as some of the supps I was taking i believe were also acting as a diuretic.

I also ordered better calipers, the 8.99 special on Amazon doesn't cut it, it's hard to tell when you've got the reading, they use a small piece of plastic that pushes in from the side to let you know when you have them closed... And they were chinsy. Here's what I've got coming:

Sequoia Fitness TrimCal 4000 Body Fat Caliper (Black)

Invalid Link Removed

It looks way better, a spring on the caliper itself and built more like a pistol grip. Better reviews as well.

I'll post back my bloods again in a little less than 2 weeks and additional progress pic at that time. I can tell I'm leaning out better in the chest and face then the gut, that's fairly standard and expected. Abdominal fat is the bane of all human existence, I think most of us share that lol, the rest you can lose fast but not the gut!

My workout for the next week or two is gonna focus on core really heavily, there's some exercises to do with the TRX bands that are incredible for core. I want to get my back and abdominal strength up more: as weight goes up at the gym on my other exercises I have been feeling it in the back and side abdominals more and more. When I start my next cycle and strength increases rapidly I'll need the core to be there for me. This week I had a nagging ache on the left side of my back and side after overhead press with the Olympic bar. The weight was the same as what I press first set with dumbbells but I finish up with the Olympic so I'm already tired and the bar is long so stability is a factor. I obviously am not paying enough attention to my core strength!! I don't want to reinjure myself so I'm gonna work harder on that for a little while and try to bring it up to speed.

OK everyone please enjoy your week, and may the gainz be with you (my second trip to see rouge 1 last night)!

 

[sespress]

I've heard/read a total of 16-24mg in two-three divided doses, so just like you'd run Ephedrine. Same Clen protocol with 2 weeks on/2 off, or use Ketotifen. The upside is nobody who has used Albuterol, has had their heart explode (that I could find - may exist). Couple that with really, how much more fat loss do you expect between Clen and Albuterol? Is the possible risk worth it? I just dumped my Clen in the woods, and grabbed 2 bottles of 'Albert' for an upcoming cut. Don't want to start a debate on Clen dangers - do what you want with your body after researching yourself.

So Albuterol didn't give you bad shakes? Or Clen? This is something I read about going away but the whole time I was taking Clen I had shaky hands. Either way I'm in time off mode but does the ketotefin people take help with that? Are you dosing your albuterol 2 times a day or more? I know Clen basically requires Taurine for cramping but what about the shaky hands effect? I grabbed a bottle of albuterol myself just to sit on. I want to try it when I'm done with this break and see if my last experience was due to Clen being in my system from previous day's or not. It is RC and I understand that it could be mega dosed, like the Clen I was taking could have been. I can look harder for Rx or go on a deliberate underdose and base tolerance off of that moving up, take pulse, etc...

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So Albuterol didn't give you bad shakes?

Haven't taken it yet - Cut starts Feb 1. No Ketotifen, I'll do 2 on / 2 off instead. I may or may not take it multiple times per day - haven't decided yet - I'll go off of rate of loss. But you most definitely split the total dose up! DO NOT think 8mg x3 = 24mg x 1! Good call on the BP / Pulse Rate monitoring - I plan on starting at 1mg and working up - I ain't in no hurry and don't pay my bills with my physique.

 

[sespress]

Haven't taken it yet - Cut starts Feb 1. No Ketotifen, I'll do 2 on / 2 off instead. I may or may not take it multiple times per day - haven't decided yet - I'll go off of rate of loss. But you most definitely split the total dose up! DO NOT think 8mg x3 = 24mg x 1! Good call on the BP / Pulse Rate monitoring - I plan on starting at 1mg and working up - I ain't in no hurry and don't pay my bills with my physique.

Yeah at 75mcg Clen I averaged about 90bpm resting (instead of about 80). You sweat way way more working out and the first week you'll feel winded faster too. I used my Samsung to monitor BPM in the gym and it would work up to about 130bpm and the winded feeling kicks in. After a week or so you don't get winded as fast but you still average a high pulse just from lifting.

I don't recall being any warmer so I think the whole effect is cardio rate related, even resting. If you think about it was a 11% increase in base rate from heart alone

 

[BadandBoujee]

You look like chit, why are you even thinking of starting a cycle.

 

[sespress]

You look like chit, why are you even thinking of starting a cycle.

Thanks bro

 

[dvw]

Sepress; Hey man if you are training harder and doing more in overall work capacity. You are losing weight and not losing strength? That is good man! Just limit yourself to taking a couple compounds per cycle. Albuterol is not all that strong, have used with minimal added loss of BF

 

[sespress]

Sepress; Hey man if you are training harder and doing more in overall work capacity. You are losing weight and not losing strength? That is good man! Just limit yourself to taking a couple compounds per cycle. Albuterol is not all that strong, have used with minimal added loss of BF

Couldn't get past the shakes on Clen or it after a two week trial. No ketofin which I dunno would have helped. I'll try again another time in future. And yeah I cut down massively I'm taking a mineral supplement and HMB that's all for a while. And yes I am still putting up more weight and losing weight at the same time my goal right now is 10 more lbs and another blood work before I cycle anything strong.

Thanks for bumping the thread with something helpful!

 

[Woody]

T3 over clen for me. Clen was not fun

 

[mmorso]

T3 over clen for me. Clen was not fun

How would t3 stack with trest and epistane for a 6 wk run? Im thinking

Dermatrest 50/50/50/50/50/50
Epistane 30/30/30/30/30/30
T3 50/50/50/50/50/50mcg

Maintenance kcals and probably going to try and carb cycle.

Training will be fasted, with fasted HISS cardio on off days

I'd like to cut 10-15lbs of BF and add 8-12 lbs of LBM...

Think this is possible with this setup or should I add more kcals?

 

[sespress]

T3 over clen for me. Clen was not fun

OK glad I'm not the only one who had a rough time with that class of stim!

T3 is catabolic though right? Did you run it while on anything else?

 

[sespress]

How would t3 stack with trest and epistane for a 6 wk run? Im thinking

Dermatrest 50/50/50/50/50/50
Epistane 30/30/30/30/30/30
T3 50/50/50/50/50/50mcg

Maintenance kcals and probably going to try and carb cycle.

Training will be fasted, with fasted HISS cardio on off days

I'd like to cut 10-15lbs of BF and add 8-12 lbs of LBM...

Think this is possible with this setup or should I add more kcals?

What's your maintenance Cal #? When I run this setup I'm gonna keep a deficit (or try I hear Trest is gonna make me want to eat the house), are you thinking eat maintenance and the t3 and epistane will make it a cut/recomp?

 

[sespress]

Also I wish I could get away with the fasted training. I just wear out so quick without some food processing at the time.

I used to keep some trail mix and/or a piece of fallafal in the car and after an hour in the gym go out have most of a bottle of water and a handful of trail mix or the fallafal and then go back in for 30-1hr. I feel like I was building muscle maybe a bit better when I did that. Duration of the workout for me at least seems to be more important than the effect of fasted training.

 

[Nac]

If inclined, look into what Schoenfeld and Aragon etc have to say on the fasted/non-fasted data. End of the day, no scientific benefit to preferring fasted to fed. Do whatever you find maximises performance.

 

[mmorso]

What's your maintenance Cal #? When I run this setup I'm gonna keep a deficit (or try I hear Trest is gonna make me want to eat the house), are you thinking eat maintenance and the t3 and epistane will make it a cut/recomp?

My maintenance kcals are ~2,500, which is what I'm going to eat, although I might bump to 3K depending on what the T3 does . The 50mcg of T3 will make any gains I get be completely lean...

Also I wish I could get away with the fasted training. I just wear out so quick without some food processing at the time.

I used to keep some trail mix and/or a piece of fallafal in the car and after an hour in the gym go out have most of a bottle of water and a handful of trail mix or the fallafal and then go back in for 30-1hr. I feel like I was building muscle maybe a bit better when I did that. Duration of the workout for me at least seems to be more important than the effect of fasted training.

Dude, 2 hrs in the gym is way too much.. try to move faster... really, 45 sec rest between sets is what you really want to aim for. They say after 1 hr of exercise, cortisol levels really rise. I usually workout for 1-1 1/2...

If inclined, look into what Schoenfeld and Aragon etc have to say on the fasted/non-fasted data. End of the day, no scientific benefit to preferring fasted to fed. Do whatever you find maximises performance.

Drugs/sups work better for me on an empty stomach

 

[sespress]

When are you going to get started? I'm wondering if you'll begin before me. I'm still waiting on a bit more weight loss, I'm thinking of targeting 240/235 to start at. If you do I'd love it if you let me know how the combo is treating you.

I was also wondering if running my super 11 for a two week before or after would be a good plan. I know epistane is a 6 week run, I'm partial to an 8 week cycle.

 

[habajaba]

Dude, 2 hrs in the gym is way too much.. try to move faster... really, 45 sec rest between sets is what you really want to aim for. They say after 1 hr of exercise, cortisol levels really rise. I usually workout for 1-1 1/2...



Drugs/sups work better for me on an empty stomach

Ditto this. I push myself to take minimal breaks. Usually get my full routine done in 53-60 minutes and I am totally spent. I believe it's dual purpose of limiting cortisol and maximizing cardio effect by keeping HR up.

And same here regarding fasted effects of supps.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Rest:

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TLDR: At least 2 minutes (if you're after Hypertrophy).

 

[mmorso]

When are you going to get started? I'm wondering if you'll begin before me. I'm still waiting on a bit more weight loss, I'm thinking of targeting 240/235 to start at. If you do I'd love it if you let me know how the combo is treating you.

I was also wondering if running my super 11 for a two week before or after would be a good plan. I know epistane is a 6 week run, I'm partial to an 8 week cycle.

Idk when I'm gonna start... my wife is due March 1st and I'm gonna start my cycle after we get the whole sleeping schedule steady and I can get into a regular routine.

Sup3r-11 is awesome but I think you're not gonna get a whole lot out of it by running it for 2 weeks IMHO.. I think you need to run it for 8 weeks and idk that it would do much on this cycle. I think the epi/trest combo is going to completely overshadow it man.

 

[sespress]

Rest:

Invalid Link Removed

TLDR: At least 2 minutes (if you're after Hypertrophy).

That's what I've been hitting, and about 3-5 between exercises, mostly do to crowding in the gym. I try to make sure I have enough time to compete the whole group of exercises but occasionally I'm getting in close to closing time.

You know I've heard a variety of things on push pull routines, just cause you seem to have a great link for everything I'll shoot the ? Your way.

For instance doing back and biceps, does one rotate between bicep and back exercises evenly or... Well or what is the best method? I'll do curls first and back exercises next and finish with lighter weights curling again.

 

[sespress]

Idk when I'm gonna start... my wife is due March 1st and I'm gonna start my cycle after we get the whole sleeping schedule steady and I can get into a regular routine.

Sup3r-11 is awesome but I think you're not gonna get a whole lot out of it by running it for 2 weeks IMHO.. I think you need to run it for 8 weeks and idk that it would do much on this cycle. I think the epi/trest combo is going to completely overshadow it man.

Waste of cash you think?

 

[Nac]

What is the Ideal Rest Interval for Muscle Growth? Implications from Our Recent Study

TLDR: At least 2 minutes (if you're after Hypertrophy).

Shoenfeld has also conceded that:

1) it may be of benefit to vary rest times, and not stick dogmatically just to one

2) shorter rest times (ie less than the two minutes prescribed) may be compensated for by the potential to increase overall volume; doing more sets/reps in the same amount of session time. This could actually lead to superior growth.

 

[mmorso]

Waste of cash you think?

Not at all man... I personally loved super-11 and lost a lot of BF running it. Save it for another run or trade it or something...

 

[habajaba]

Rest:

Invalid Link Removed

TLDR: At least 2 minutes (if you're after Hypertrophy).

I agree with this. To be clear, I'm referring to limiting rest to the minimum required to attack the next set full on. And specifically from the approach of a recomp, not solely focused on getting big, but leaning out as much as possible at the same time. I believe limiting the rest keeps the heart rate higher, which in turn torches more fat.

 

[mmorso]

Shoenfeld has also conceded that:

1) it may be of benefit to vary rest times, and not stick dogmatically just to one

2) shorter rest times (ie less than the two minutes prescribed) may be compensated for by the potential to increase overall volume; doing more sets/reps in the same amount of session time. This could actually lead to superior growth.

I used to rest for ~2mins until fairly recently... I read an article on AM or maybe BB.com about shorter rest times causing more metabolic stress and inducing more anabolism.

It seems these studies always contradict each other though. Personally I agree with habajaba that it gives you a decent cardio workout as well, which I think would benefit sespress who is trying to recomp.

Plus.. Drugs!!!! The drugs and supplements work so much better fasted!!!

 

[Nac]

I think sometimes the studies appear to be contadictory because they usually have their own set of quite specific parameters.

Sticking with the study above, the specific parameters being examined were 1min vs 3min rest times, BUT there was also a specific weekly volume/frequency. Fuk with one of these latter metrics and suddenly things (results, conclusions) can look quite different.

The most we can really conclude from that study is that under those specific conditions examined, a rest period >1min is better for hypertrophy (and strength). How much this hypothesis holds or carries over when primary parameters are altered, is not addressed nor predictable from that study.

IMO rest time would be a "weak" parameter, compared to volume and frequency.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

The Kcal difference between 45 seconds and 2 minutes would result in an unmeasurable amount of fat loss (if there was a difference at all). See the recent 3DMJ Podcast "All About Cardio". You lift metal to get bigger/stronger - if you want to burn more calories, do more/longer cardio. My opinion anyway

 

[sespress]

Not at all man... I personally loved super-11 and lost a lot of BF running it. Save it for another run or trade it or something...

That's what I meant, waste to throw it on top of the others.

 

[habajaba]

The Kcal difference between 45 seconds and 2 minutes would result in an unmeasurable amount of fat loss (if there was a difference at all). See the recent 3DMJ Podcast "All About Cardio". You lift metal to get bigger/stronger - if you want to burn more calories, do more/longer cardio. My opinion anyway

I won't argue that math may seem to confirm your point. But I can say from my own anecdotal experience that I have leaned out more effectively and continued adding muscle with high rep, low rest lift days. I alternate lift and cardio. Personally, I saw way less leaning when just doing cardio. Honestly it plateaued pretty quick and was then ineffective. Longer cardio even caused me to start gaining. I assume from the increased cortisol. And obviously there was no muscle gain there. If I only wanted to get big/strong, no doubt I would be lifting heavier and taking more breaks. But at least for me, this has been effective for a recomp and I plan to continue to do it until it stops working. Diff'rent strokes.

 

[sespress]

The Kcal difference between 45 seconds and 2 minutes would result in an unmeasurable amount of fat loss (if there was a difference at all). See the recent 3DMJ Podcast "All About Cardio". You lift metal to get bigger/stronger - if you want to burn more calories, do more/longer cardio. My opinion anyway

What about the various lifts that involve a fast repitious motion? Cleans for instance. Typically you bang these out pretty hard and when ever I do them my heart rate gets pretty high, 130 or so. May only be sustained for like 10 minutes and dropping slightly between sets but.. yeah you see what I mean. There's the kettle bell exercise where you squat, lift it Infront of you as you stand with one arm, switch to the other, etc..

I hate cardio (most firms other then swimming, so usually I do that once or twice a week), so I try to find exercises that will get my heart rate up while lifting. I tend to ache in my knees after running, so I'll climb stairs, that kind of thing.


Edit: I am aware 130 isn't really cardio at my age, just using as an example that I get on that... Might be higher but I use my phone to test after the set so I might have cooled off some, I know hr doesn't get close doing curls for instance.

 

[Woody]

How would t3 stack with trest and epistane for a 6 wk run? Im thinking

Dermatrest 50/50/50/50/50/50
Epistane 30/30/30/30/30/30
T3 50/50/50/50/50/50mcg

Maintenance kcals and probably going to try and carb cycle.

Training will be fasted, with fasted HISS cardio on off days

I'd like to cut 10-15lbs of BF and add 8-12 lbs of LBM...

Think this is possible with this setup or should I add more kcals?

At work so will respond more fully later but I personally wouldn't do HISS/HIIT with T3. LISS should be fine. Potentially up the dose of T3 if you aren't seeing enough results (especially if it's an RC). T3 is catabolic but Trest/Epi should stave it off.

Would personally run Trest a little higher as well. With a pharma AI.

 

[mmorso]

Would personally run Trest a little higher as well. With a pharma AI.

I also have oral trest... I might dose a couple caps pwo. I'll be getting pharma exem and running 12.5eod unless I need to increase... I might even go 12.5e3d if I can get away with it. Exem makes me feel like dogsh1t

 

[sespress]

Hey so I've been working out with my hoodie on to get a thermogenic effect while lifting. I'm certain I'm sweating more, but is this one of those fads? I'm wondering if it makes a real difference, or I'm just making more sweaty laundry

 

[sespress]

mmorso clear your inbox my man!