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Saw Palmetto and other Hair Loss aids, killing gains??

drejb

drejb

Active member
Hey guys.

I read somewhere that if using an AI or test booster (alphamax XT in my case) or AAS, the use of a DHT blocker could potentially make the use of these enhancers less effective?

This is due to DHA being a crucial anabolic hormone. Therefore the blocking of the conversion has adverse effects?

I am taking Alphamax XT and soon will be taking Sustain Alpha potentially. Will the saw palmetto, and Nizoeal prevent me from getting full effectiveness of these products?

Also, I will be taking topical finasteride about twice a week after my hairline restoration procedure

Could this cause adverse effects?


I'd love to site the article but I can't find it. All the science and bio fiends in here please chime in!
 
DHT is a powerful anabolic so yes blocking it can prevent gains. You mention Nizoral, this does not block DHT systematically, only at the follicle level (lots of debate on whether this even occurs at all or if its just the antifungal thats preventing hairloss).

Saw Palmetto is very weak at blocking DHT conversion so your not going to notice anything in my opinion.

Finasteride is another story. There are reports that topical finasteride will enter the system and work like oral finasteride but to a much lower extent.

Couple of questions for you, if your going through the hair restoration process why not take finasteride orally? Worried about the sides?
Which topical finasteride solution are you going with? One with minoxidil?
 
user567 said:
DHT is a powerful anabolic so yes blocking it can prevent gains. You mention Nizoral, this does not block DHT systematically, only at the follicle level (lots of debate on whether this even occurs at all or if its just the antifungal thats preventing hairloss).

Saw Palmetto is very weak at blocking DHT conversion so your not going to notice anything in my opinion.

Finasteride is another story. There are reports that topical finasteride will enter the system and work like oral finasteride but to a much lower extent.

Couple of questions for you, if your going through the hair restoration process why not take finasteride orally? Worried about the sides?
Which topical finasteride solution are you going with? One with minoxidil?
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Yes, I am definitely worried about the sides. Also the doctor said that my hair loss is at a slow rate and I could get away with dosing the topical solution twice a week versus taking the oral at a small dose daily. I am not 100% sure if the solution includes minoxidil, I don't remember him mentioning it but it may
 
I have heard this too. Keep in mind, if you have male pattern baldness then anything you really do to increase your test is going to increase baldness because of DHT, that should even include exercising. Finasteride is a DHT blocker but if you're taking it for hairloss I would imagine it is a very low dose? I think people taking it for their prostate usually take 5X the amount compared to people taking it for hairloss? So yeah, I guess it would affect gains but not as much as it could.
 
drejb said:
Yes, I am definitely worried about the sides. Also the doctor said that my hair loss is at a slow rate and I could get away with dosing the topical solution twice a week versus taking the oral at a small dose daily. I am not 100% sure if the solution includes minoxidil, I don't remember him mentioning it but it may
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I think its worth trying finasteride a 1mg. If your already to the point of needing a transplant more hair loss is coming and once its gone its gone. I began to loose my hair at 23 and started finasteride and still have a nice head of hair at age 43. There are sides to finasteride but it comes and goes with me. The only side I notice is the typical libido/erectile stuff. Definitely manageable. You can always stop taking it.

Im suprised you wouldnt try this vs getting a transplant. Seems like once you commit to the transplant your committed for life and have to get follow up procedures. If you take the finasteride you probably wouldnt need a procedure for a very long time and if you get sides just stop. Like i said I am 20 years in and still dont need a procedure.

With regard to gains you wouldnt know I take it. Im in very good shape and look it. How much is the DHT blocking affecting me is impossible to say. I can tell you I will take the muscles I have with a head of hair VS more muscles and no hair
 
user567 said:
I think its worth trying finasteride a 1mg. If your already to the point of needing a transplant more hair loss is coming and once its gone its gone. I began to loose my hair at 23 and started finasteride and still have a nice head of hair at age 43. There are sides to finasteride but it comes and goes with me. The only side I notice is the typical libido/erectile stuff. Definitely manageable. You can always stop taking it.

Im suprised you wouldnt try this vs getting a transplant. Seems like once you commit to the transplant your committed for life and have to get follow up procedures. If you take the finasteride you probably wouldnt need a procedure for a very long time and if you get sides just stop. Like i said I am 20 years in and still dont need a procedure.
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I hear that finasteride could potentially cause permanent ED in a lot of people. Also causes gyno in some. I had gyno during puberty so I'm assuming I'm prone to it. I took some harsh stuff as a kid, accutane, M1t experiment at 18 and stupid, so I'm trying to stay away from long term chemical orals due to the fact that I suffer from anxiety and depression. Will finasteride grow back any lost hair?
 
drejb said:
I hear that finasteride could potentially cause permanent ED in a lot of people. Also causes gyno in some. I had gyno during puberty so I'm assuming I'm prone to it. I took some harsh stuff as a kid, accutane, M1t experiment at 18 and stupid, so I'm trying to stay away from long term chemical orals due to the fact that I suffer from anxiety and depression. Will finasteride grow back any lost hair?
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I have heard a lot of the libido ED stuff too, but I always assumed that the majority of people who take Finasteride are probably older people as that is when most people start losing their hair. So I always wondered how much of it reported was actually from the drug or was from actually aging.
 
1st) Yes DHT blockers, natural or synthetic, do have the POTENTIAL for inhibiting muscle gains. It all depends the dose and your individual sensitivity. But if your already in shape i dont see them reducing muscle mass.

**This is one reason why i dont recommend natural test booster that contain saw palmetto, 3-4 Divanyl, etc. You can argue all you want that they increase "free testosterone". Increases within the physiological range have LITTLE to NO impact on muscle mass. Also if your natural, big point, why would you want to stop conversion of test to DHT...DHT is 2x as androgenic as test which means your muscles store more glycogen and your stronger...etc unless you hve abnormally high dht levels young natural men or men in pct should not worry about stoping test conversion to DHT.

2nd) Finastride and Dutastride both have potential for causing erectile dysfunction at doses for both prostate health and hairloss. Iv had clients and friends in the twenties that started experiencing ED issues on only 2.5mg EOD. Now like i said before individual sensitivity will vary so 2.5mg wont cause erectile dysfunction in everyman.

**The only time i recomend DHT blockers are when some1 is running test + masteron or some other DHT compound. In that case you may want to stop testosterone from converting into DHT as it isnt nessacery since your injecting dht already.

This thread may belong in the anabolic section, if so mods i apologize ahead of time.
 
CT21 said:
1st) Yes DHT blockers, natural or synthetic, do have the POTENTIAL for inhibiting muscle gains. It all depends the dose and your individual sensitivity. But if your already in shape i dont see them reducing muscle mass.

**This is one reason why i dont recommend natural test booster that contain saw palmetto, 3-4 Divanyl, etc. You can argue all you want that they increase "free testosterone". Increases within the physiological range have LITTLE to NO impact on muscle mass. Also if your natural, big point, why would you want to stop conversion of test to DHT...DHT is 2x as androgenic as test which means your muscles store more glycogen and your stronger...etc unless you hve abnormally high dht levels young natural men or men in pct should not worry about stoping test conversion to DHT.

2nd) Finastride and Dutastride both have potential for causing erectile dysfunction at doses for both prostate health and hairloss. Iv had clients and friends in the twenties that started experiencing ED issues on only 2.5mg EOD. Now like i said before individual sensitivity will vary so 2.5mg wont cause erectile dysfunction in everyman.

**The only time i recomend DHT blockers are when some1 is running test + masteron or some other DHT compound. In that case you may want to stop testosterone from converting into DHT as it isnt nessacery since your injecting dht already.

This thread may belong in the anabolic section, if so mods i apologize ahead of time.
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So you're saying, if I'm natural, I can try to save my hair or I can try to build muscle. But I can't do both? Lol :(

Great post btw super informative
 
drejb said:
So you're saying, if I'm natural, I can try to save my hair or I can try to build muscle. But I can't do both? Lol :(

Great post btw super informative
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You can do both but you wont optimize either. Also like i said indiviual tolerances and sensitivities will vary. So some will experience erectile dysfunction even on small doses, so be aware that if you do use finastride the potential for negative sides even with the topical is present. If you accept that risk thats your choice.

Also your post led me into a rant about why i find it stupid for young natural guys to take "test boosters" that are dht blockers.
 
CT21 said:
You can do both but you wont optimize either. Also like i said indiviual tolerances and sensitivities will vary. So some will experience erectile dysfunction even on small doses, so be aware that if you do use finastride the potential for negative sides even with the topical is present. If you accept that risk thats your choice.

Also your post led me into a rant about why i find it stupid for young natural guys to take "test boosters" that are dht blockers.
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Good stuff.

To clarify I was taking saw palmetto separate from my test booster but stopped about a week ago. I do not believe that the alphamax XT I am taking has any DHT blocker. The finasteride is up in the air for me. The recommended dose from my doc is 1mg daily.

I am not balding in the crown, I am receding in the hairline and am 28 years of age to specify for everyone reading
 
user567 said:
With regard to gains you wouldnt know I take it. Im in very good shape and look it. How much is the DHT blocking affecting me is impossible to say. I can tell you I will take the muscles I have with a head of hair VS more muscles and no hair
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This.
 
Sss23 said:
Finasteride is not worth the risks
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But I bet you will jump on a cycle of anabolics with no 2nd thought! This game is all about hormones. Increasing some, decreasing others. The same risks apply whether your using ANAVAR or finasteride. Your messing with your hormones and you can f@ck yourself up. But the body is amazingly resilient and if you get sides from finasteride you can always stop and homeostasis will kick in and you will most likely return to your normal hormone levels. Lots of BS out there on finasteride side effects. Permanent ED is BS. These guys complaining about this are 45 year old or older men that would have ED anyway!


If you recently lost the hair finasteride will grow it back. It can cause gyno but this is very very rare and again you can always jump off. Im not trying to push finasteride on you just trying to make sure your making the right decision as hair transplants are no joke! They have to be done right to look decent and its a lifetime commitment of money and of course follow up and time.
 
I've read horror stories about both.. some people claim permanent sides from fin that can't be fixed, idk why they'd make that up.. yes a cycle could mess you up but there is protocol that can usually help
 
I use a high quality toco 8 supplement (toco-sorb from Jarrow). No sides and worked well while on tren. I'm only a shedder, no receding hairline, but it caused me to hardly shed at all.
 
Bumping this thread.

So hairline reconstruction transplant scheduled for the 23rd of November with 1000 grafts only (small procedure) using FUE protocol. I am being prescribed Finasteride at 1mg 2-3x a week, but may take it at .5mg 3x a week. Doc says this is a very low dose and is only being used to prevent further shedding, not necessarily for regrowth. Anyone experience this dose finasteride? I'm kind of hesitant to block DHT at the systemic level and may not even take the fin and stick with my Nizoral 2% 3x a week. My dad and brother have full head hair and my grandfather on moms side started thinning at 40, so my risk for more shedding is quite low, leaving me to want to say fck the fin unless I visibly start shedding which may not even happen
 
drejb said:
Bumping this thread.

So hairline reconstruction transplant scheduled for the 23rd of November with 1000 grafts only (small procedure) using FUE protocol. I am being prescribed Finasteride at 1mg 2-3x a week, but may take it at .5mg 3x a week. Doc says this is a very low dose and is only being used to prevent further shedding, not necessarily for regrowth. Anyone experience this dose finasteride? I'm kind of hesitant to block DHT at the systemic level and may not even take the fin and stick with my Nizoral 2% 3x a week. My dad and brother have full head hair and my grandfather on moms side started thinning at 40, so my risk for more shedding is quite low, leaving me to want to say fck the fin unless I visibly start shedding which may not even happen
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There's a million things for hairloss. Why aren't you using minoxidil? Keep me posted on your FUE procedure. I've seen incredible results with today's hair transplants.
 
210LBS said:
There's a million things for hairloss. Why aren't you using minoxidil? Keep me posted on your FUE procedure. I've seen incredible results with today's hair transplants.
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Hey brother. Tried out minox, after about 3.5 months I started getting darkness under my eyes and my face was starting to slightly swell. I stopped taking it and sides went away. So currently I wash with Nizoral 2% twice or 3 times a week. I'm hoping that's enough to halt the future hair loss, considering I'm at about a NW2 creeping toward a 3. The procedure should get me to a solid looking 1-2 and I don't think it'll get much worse (hopeful thinking). Also my surgeon is regarded as best in the country, and people fly from all over the world to get procedures done by him. So it should be great! Maybe I'll post some before / afters in here once they take them
 
drejb said:
Hey brother. Tried out minox, after about 3.5 months I started getting darkness under my eyes and my face was starting to slightly swell. I stopped taking it and sides went away. So currently I wash with Nizoral 2% twice or 3 times a week. I'm hoping that's enough to halt the future hair loss, considering I'm at about a NW2 creeping toward a 3. The procedure should get me to a solid looking 1-2 and I don't think it'll get much worse (hopeful thinking). Also my surgeon is regarded as best in the country, and people fly from all over the world to get procedures done by him. So it should be great! Maybe I'll post some before / afters in here once they take them
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Before and after pics would be cool. Your procedure of 1000 grafts definitely seems very small though which means you probably still have a ton of hair. As for your hair to completely stop thinning... it's not impossible, but I wouldn't count on it. I've used minoxidil for probably 5 years now and I think it works for slowing down hairloss. The thing is, you shed like crazy on it. I thought I was actually losing hair because so much was falling out when I started using it. I still have a good amount of hair (although hairline has receded a bit) and every male in my family is completely bald. I definitely wouldn't be using it if I had your side effects though. I'm thinking about looking into the FUE procedure after I lose some more hair. I'm not sure if I'd even be a candidate because I haven't had my donor hair checked. I haven't used fin yet because I have the same concerns as you.
 
210LBS said:
Before and after pics would be cool. Your procedure of 1000 grafts definitely seems very small though which means you probably still have a ton of hair. As for your hair to completely stop thinning... it's not impossible, but I wouldn't count on it. I've used minoxidil for probably 5 years now and I think it works for slowing down hairloss. The thing is, you shed like crazy on it. I thought I was actually losing hair because so much was falling out when I started using it. I still have a good amount of hair (although hairline has receded a bit) and every male in my family is completely bald. I definitely wouldn't be using it if I had your side effects though. I'm thinking about looking into the FUE procedure after I lose some more hair. I'm not sure if I'd even be a candidate because I haven't had my donor hair checked. I haven't used fin yet because I have the same concerns as you.
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Here's my current hairline at 27

You can see in this pic where it has recessed. The rest of it is thick and coarse with 0 signs of thinning in the back. My father is 60 and has a full head of thick hair. Hoping my genes are leaning toward his side lol
 
drejb said:
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Here's my current hairline at 27

You can see in this pic where it has recessed. The rest of it is thick and coarse with 0 signs of thinning in the back. My father is 60 and has a full head of thick hair. Hoping my genes are leaning toward his side lol
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Pssshhh.. that's nothing. Sometimes hairlines just mature and then the hairloss stops. No offense, but why are you getting the hair transplant so soon? Nobody is going to look at you and think that you're balding. I'm sure the transplant will help restore some of your hairline but your hairline looks pretty good to me as it is.
 
210LBS said:
Pssshhh.. that's nothing. Sometimes hairlines just mature and then the hairloss stops. No offense, but why are you getting the hair transplant so soon? Nobody is going to look at you and think that you're balding. I'm sure the transplant will help restore some of your hairline but your hairline looks pretty good to me as it is.
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I am in front of the camera professionally. And most of the products I represent are men's fashion / grooming / hair. I was prompted by my agent to get this done because I was being overlooked for a lot of gigs due to this. Harsh industry but pays well
 
210LBS said:
Pssshhh.. that's nothing. Sometimes hairlines just mature and then the hairloss stops. No offense, but why are you getting the hair transplant so soon? Nobody is going to look at you and think that you're balding. I'm sure the transplant will help restore some of your hairline but your hairline looks pretty good to me as it is.
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Here is another for reference. Keep in mind 1000 grafts is a very small / quick procedure Invalid Link Removed
 
drejb said:
I am in front of the camera professionally. And most of the products I represent are men's fashion / grooming / hair. I was prompted by my agent to get this done because I was being overlooked for a lot of gigs due to this. Harsh industry but pays well
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That's an entirely different story. Didn't know it was work related. In that sense it's really an investment. Just saying I think it looks fine. I know 1000 grafts is small. I'm interested in hearing about the procedure, recovery time, etc. Personally I plan to wait until I lose more hair and need at least a 2000 graft procedure... but I also don't have any modeling gigs coming up so I have all the time in the world.
 
There are entire forums dedicated to those who have been permenantly screwed by fina. Permenant ED, low energy, depression, etc.

No freaking way in the world would I risk it. What good is hair if your dick will never work again
 
I've had shedding before...also a natural hair line like you but never called it receeding

When I was shedding I was freaking out so I went with saw palmetto....but also got into a routine of scalp massages daily and sleeping with a mixture of coconut oil and argon oil twice a week...you'll need a shower cap but it seemed to stop the shedding but also made my hair super strong
 
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